It looks very good for a first try. I think you're definitely on the right track, based on my own testing of what Clique ought to look like.
Roughly, I'd say you need
-Less conditional counters that suck in the late game, ie, Force Spike, etc.
-Definitely more bounce. I run somewhere between 13 and 16 on average. It changes daily.
-I run exactly 1 non flash creature, Gilded Drake. And even that might not be worth it.
-Arcane Denial is never worth a slot in a deck where card disadvantage is your worst enemy. I'd run this only in a combo deck where "the beginning of next turn" never takes place.
-Stroke should be Overwhelming Intellect imo. Frantic Search doesn't belong here either.
-Vedalken Shackles are worth it, in my experience, despite being antithetical to the deck's general strategy of never really playing anything on its own turn.
-RE: Commandeer, I still need to test this myself. How is it working out for you thus far?
- Brainstorm needs reshuffling effects to be of any real use. Sensei's Top also benefits from fetchlands and Thawing Glaciers.
Khymera could give you better advice than most, probably. I'll post my own list once I am content with it. It is still changing day by day.
While your list will certainly hold its own, there are plenty of things I would suggest changing.
I would take out every creature you are running, and replace them with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Venser, Shaper Savant; I will occasionally run Sower of Temptation, depending on where I am playing. Draining Whelkis probably the most attractive of the creatures you are running, but even then, its just redundant. Freeing up those slots gives you more disruption, which is the overall goal.
Broken Ambitions - I probably would not suggest running more than two X counterspells (with the exception of Spell Burst), as they are very prone to opening you up if you make mistakes, and are just not that efficient.
Commandeer - Seems like it would be awesome, but unless you are hard casting it, its horrible. -3 cards to Misdirection a random instant or sorcery that, most of the time, will not even benefit you is pretty rough. I would suggest running Spelljack or Overwhelming Intellect in its place, if you HAVE to have a counterspell with tricks.
Fervent Denial - Its a really best case scenario that you will be playing a Counterspell for seven mana. I would probably suggest (if you want a counterspell that does something besides just counter) Traumatic Visions.
[CARD]
Misdirection[/CARD] - Is really helpful in a few matchups, and is dead most of the other times. I would probably suggest replacing it with a good situational counterspell, like Remove Soul or Essence Scatter.
Spell Blast - You listed Spell Burst twice, so Im assuming that this is supposed to be Spell Blast ;), which would be the same as Broken Ambitions.
[CARD]
Rune Snag[/CARD] - I probably would not run Rune Snag and Miscalculation. Both are very situational, but Miscalculation is just strictly better than Rune Snag.
[CARD]
Arcane Denial[/CARD] - Huge card disadvantage, I would probably suggest running Remand in its place, if you are looking for a 1U spell.
Daze - I used to run this when Rofellos was in my play group, now that its not, I have never cast it.
[CARD]
Force Spike[/CARD] - See Daze. If you really want a U counterspell, Spell Pierce is probably better.
Disrupt - See Force Spike
[CARD]
Stifle[/CARD] - I dont run it, but depending on your play group, it may be viable.
Annul - Really good when your opponent casts an artifact or enchantment, worthless when they dont. Unless you can guarantee that your opponent will cast a relevant artifact or enchantment, I would not suggest running it.
As far as your utility spells go:
[CARD]
Stroke of Genius[/CARD] - Alot of people will tell you not to run it, I am not one of those people. I have always had positive experiences with it.
Opt - Doesn't really grant you any card advantage. I would probably run Compulsion in its place.
Brainstorm and Ponder - People really look at me funny when they see I dont run either of these cards, but the truth is, they arent really that great for Clique. I would take an Inspiration over brainstorm 99% of the time.
Artifacts..:
Umezawa's Jitte - Just makes very little sense. You have no way to tutor for it, and is VERY situational. Best case scenario, you randomly draw it and play it, and you end the game a couple of turns earlier with clique.
[CARD]
Mana Vault[/CARD] and Mana Crypt - Im not sure what they are there for, I think the object of the deck is to curve it out, and just slow roll into a win, and I cant really see a point for either of these. They let you cast big counterspells earlier.. but thats what you have small counterspells for
Tunnel Vision: This is probably the most contested card I see in Clique lists, and for every person I see say they like it, there is another that says they dont. Personally, I Have been running it recently, and It has been my win condition a majority of the time. And even if you dont have a setup prior to casting, if you know what your opponent is playing, you will still be able to mill a majority of their deck. I am pro Tunnel Vision!
While your list will certainly hold its own, there are plenty of things I would suggest changing.
I would take out every creature you are running, and replace them with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Venser, Shaper Savant; I will occasionally run Sower of Temptation, depending on where I am playing. Draining Whelkis probably the most attractive of the creatures you are running, but even then, its just redundant. Freeing up those slots gives you more disruption, which is the overall goal.
lolwut? Logic knot is basically a 2cc hard counter.
Commandeer - Seems like it would be awesome, but unless you are hard casting it, its horrible. -3 cards to Misdirection a random instant or sorcery that, most of the time, will not even benefit you is pretty rough. I would suggest running Spelljack or Overwhelming Intellect in its place, if you HAVE to have a counterspell with tricks.
Free counters are free counters. Being able to nick an eot draw spell or something is huge, especially when it costs you 0 mana.
Misdirection - Is really helpful in a few matchups, and is dead most of the other times. I would probably suggest replacing it with a good situational counterspell, like Remove Soul or Essence Scatter.
Free counter to win counter wars, shunt things like stroke or other draw to you, redirects LD and keeps things like vedalken shackles alive. Why would you *not* run it, as another iteration of FoW
Arcane Denial[/CARD] - Huge card disadvantage, I would probably suggest running Remand in its place, if you are looking for a 1U spell.
2cc hard counter is a 2cc hard counter. Worth it *just* for the redundancy.
Stifle - I dont run it, but depending on your play group, it may be viable.
This is almost never going to be a dead draw. You can find some way to make it trigger.
Annul - Really good when your opponent casts an artifact or enchantment, worthless when they dont. Unless you can guarantee that your opponent will cast a relevant artifact or enchantment, I would not suggest running it.
So unless your opponent is playing a good deck with artifact accel/things like jitte its bad?
Thirst is one of the best draw spells of all time. He just needs +1 Seat of the Synod, and maybe a darksteel citadel to have some things to pitch to it.
Also, careful consideration is the exact same raw CA as a bad thirst when cast as an instant.
Brainstorm and Ponder - People really look at me funny when they see I dont run either of these cards, but the truth is, they arent really that great for Clique. I would take an Inspiration over brainstorm 99% of the time.
Add some shuffle effects like fetches, and of a sudden brainstorm gets ridiculous. way better than impulse.
Artifacts..:
Umezawa's Jitte - Just makes very little sense. You have no way to tutor for it, and is VERY situational. Best case scenario, you randomly draw it and play it, and you end the game a couple of turns earlier with clique.
He had muddle the mixture.
Also randomly drawing jitte with your draw spells goes a ways to winning games you shouldn't.
Mana Vault and Mana Crypt - Im not sure what they are there for, I think the object of the deck is to curve it out, and just slow roll into a win, and I cant really see a point for either of these. They let you cast big counterspells earlier.. but thats what you have small counterspells for [/quote]
Artifact accel to be able to counter/draw, and both can be pitched to thirst for knowledge if necessary. How are those not good?
is spellstutter better than venser in this deck, I cannot imagine that it would ever counter something that costs more than 2
Yes, Spellstutter Sprite is unremarkable and I even feel Venser is a little overrated, even with Riptide Lab plus ~13 bounce effects. It's worth it, but you can live without it.
I hope that is supposed to be a joke. Guile is one of the worst cards you could possibly run. You're tapping 6 during your main phase for something that won't immediately win the game. Not even a consideration if you're trying to be competitive, imo.
Every competitve clique deck should run Mistblade Shinobi. Attack with clique. Ninjitsu Mistblade in. Bounce their general to their hand from Mistblades ability. Flash in click and tuck for the win.
lolwut? Logic knot is basically a 2cc hard counter.
Unless I am missing something, I was under the impression that Logic Knot is a soft counter (unless you are able to dump arbitrarily large number of cards in the graveyard.
If you recommend that OP removes every creature in the deck and replace them with two creatures with flash, I am not sure why Teferi is necessary. If you're worried about other blue decks, I should point out that pound for pound, V. Clique decks run more countermagic than most other monoblue generals (including Azami).
I should also point out that for all the suggestions to remove soft counterspells (e.g. Force Spike, Miscalculation, etc), I suspect that there is a misunderstanding on how (competitive) V. clique decks works. The idea isn't really so much of definitively countering a spell (hard counter). Rather, Clique decks are based on disrupting the opponent's tempo whilst giving the opponent something like a seven turn clock (my playgroup called Vendillion Clique "Blue Lightning" before I voluntarily banned that general) to either win the game or to remove Clique.
The soft counterspells are often there to give tempo disruptions to an opponent who will be forced to play around these soft counters (blissfully unaware that the Clique player is holding a handful of hard counters instead ;)). Given that a resolved Vendilion Clique would often put players on a quick seven-turn clock, soft counters don't actually "suck" in late game simply because for a clique deck, you aren't actually planning to get to that "late game".
If you recommend that OP removes every creature in the deck and replace them with two creatures with flash, I am not sure why Teferi is necessary. If you're worried about other blue decks, I should point out that pound for pound, V. Clique decks run more countermagic than most other monoblue generals (including Azami).
Im going to guess and say you didnt play much with Timespiral. 80% of the time, Teferi is not used as an enabler of playing other creatures withflash. This is true of EDH, and every other format where he has been played. Teferi's roles are (in no order):
1) Combat Trick
2) the second best counterspell hoser printed (to vexing shusher)
3) A Terminate for opposing Teferi's (which just happens to be the worst matchup for this deck)
4) Shuts down instants for opponents (BIGGEST ONE)
The only way other decks have a hope of penetrating Cliques counter wall is playing threats at your EOT, and then untapping and casting more. Good opponents and good decks that are able will do this, mainly 5c decks and other blue based decks. Teferi completely negates this. He is essentially a complete hoser for the only 2 strategies that have a hope of competing with you, all while providing a decent body and a possible combat trick. Teferi should be included no questions asked.
If you recommend that OP removes every creature in the deck and replace them with two creatures with flash, I am not sure why Teferi is necessary. If you're worried about other blue decks, I should point out that pound for pound, V. Clique decks run more countermagic than most other monoblue generals (including Azami).
Narglfrob covered this pretty much exactly. Teferi is there for a) tricks, and b) any deck that runs instants. it soft locks the game and essentially hard locks it when you have venser and riptide lab.
I should also point out that for all the suggestions to remove soft counterspells (e.g. Force Spike, Miscalculation, etc), I suspect that there is a misunderstanding on how (competitive) V. clique decks works.
Maybe you were speaking to someone else... I have been playing Clique with a nearly perfect record for over a year, so I venture to say that I have an intimate understanding of how the deck works ;P
While your point is valid (cheap disruption is good), it doesnt hold up. You are suggesting running bad cheap disruption, that will likely take 2-3 spells to even make an opponent think late game, netting you a huge card disadvantage, which you never want to do. Opposed to running good cheap disruption (such as Remand). I can almost guarantee that against a player who isnt completely incompetent, you will hardly ever catch a spell with force spike.
IMO, the only reason to run force spike is in a rofellos heavy environment.
Also, I never suggested he take out miscalculation (I run it), I suggested that Miscalculation is strictly better than Rune Snag (which is irrefutable).
Every competitve clique deck should run Mistblade Shinobi. Attack with clique. Ninjitsu Mistblade in. Bounce their general to their hand from Mistblades ability. Flash in click and tuck for the win.
I dont like that plan at all. That is assuming their general resolved, and that you dont have an answer to it at all. I would much rather have Control Magic or Spin into Myth in my hand.
Spellstutter sprite is decent, but id much rather have a counterspell. The fact that it has legs doesnt really appeal much to me, considering I cant recall a game I have won based on non-general combat damage.
Stifle - I dont run it, but depending on your play group, it may be viable.
Brainstorm and Ponder - People really look at me funny when they see I dont run either of these cards, but the truth is, they arent really that great for Clique. I would take an Inspiration over brainstorm 99% of the time.
Though I agree with many of your other recommendations, I think these two in particular are way off. Stifle (and Trickbind, and Interdict) are all great cards in Clique. As someone else said, there is ALWAYS something to Stifle, be it an enchantment trigger, a creature/artifact/land activated ability, or even a fetchland. One of these three should be in just about every Blue deck I can think of.
Brainstorm is better than Ponder, but both are amazing. There's a reason both are restricted in Type 1 (and Impulse isn't), and that is because they are nuts. With so many fetches and shuffle effects you'd be crazy not to run them. Not only are they card advantage but they let you organize your draws, put back cards you don't want discarded, or cards that aren't currently useful. With fetchlands and tutors you can shuffle them away to improve your chance of relevant draws.
Though I agree with many of your other recommendations, I think these two in particular are way off. Stifle (and Trickbind, and Interdict) are all great cards in Clique. As someone else said, there is ALWAYS something to Stifle, be it an enchantment trigger, a creature/artifact/land activated ability, or even a fetchland. One of these three should be in just about every Blue deck I can think of.
Brainstorm is better than Ponder, but both are amazing. There's a reason both are restricted in Type 1 (and Impulse isn't), and that is because they are nuts. With so many fetches and shuffle effects you'd be crazy not to run them. Not only are they card advantage but they let you organize your draws, put back cards you don't want discarded, or cards that aren't currently useful. With fetchlands and tutors you can shuffle them away to improve your chance of relevant draws.
d.g
I guess it depends on your playgroup alot of the time too, but I have never seen a stiflable ability from a card that has resolved end the game for me. Sure, you can stifle a fetch land or a maze of ith activation... but nothing game shattering, and thats what I base my premise off of. Sure, you could run Cry of Contrition in any black deck.. but it seems underwhelming.
As far as brainstorm goes, its a similiar situation. Brainstorm nets you +0 cards, just like impulse, it just replaces itself; but the difference is impulse lets you dig alot further, and it lets you chose the most powerful card out of a set, and remove the rest as variables. With a properly tuned list, every card you draw is a threat, and the percieved advantage of having 7 cards in your hand goes a long way into shaking your opponent. Now, if heavy discard decks were more prevelant in my area, I would probably include brainstorm, but until then, I doubt it will make its way in.
Brainstorm is powerful in 60 card formats because of the amount of shuffle effects those decks run (fetches). In EDH decks we have limited access to said shuffle effects, so despite it being restricted in Vintage, its really not that great of a card in EDH. Ponder is much more powerful due to its optional shuffle. Not making a judgment as to whether Bstorm should make the cut or not, but just pointing out that Bstorm is not amazing in this format. Impulse and Ponder are amazing, Bstorm is good but not great. We simply do not have enough shuffle effects to make it amazing, Bstorm is better in 5c decks like Horde or Scion.
... theres some ignorance and a little too much pride in this thread.
@brainstorm
Its one of the most powerful blue spells ever printed. Running it with fetchlands AND other effects like impulse will give you a more consistent deck.
@40 lands
lol no way too many. Look at my list higher in this thread for the best clique landbase (just add all four fetches)
39-40 lands is probably optimal for a control/tempo deck. As you want to control the stack as much as you can, it's important to hit all of your land-drops up to turn 6, just like a standard deck.
My Damia Control/Oath deck runs 39+maze and two ramp spells, and it's barely adequate.
Private Mod Note
():
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
1 Vendilion Clique
Creatures (6):
1 Draining Whelk
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Willbender
1 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Martyr Of Frost
Counterspells (37):
1 Logic Knot
1 Condescend
1 Spell Burst
1 Broken Ambitions
1 Commandeer
1 Fervent Denial
1 Force Of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Rewind
1 Foil
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Cryptic Command
1 Thwart
1 Desertion
1 Dismiss
1 Hinder
1 Forbid
1 Spell Burst
1 Sage's Dousing
1 Complicate
1 Miscalculation
1 Muddle The Mixture
1 Memory Lapse
1 Rune Snag
1 Mana Drain
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Leak
1 Negate
1 Arcane Denial
1 Daze
1 Force Spike
1 Annul
1 Disrupt
1 Dispel
1 Spell Pierce
1 Stifle
1 Pact Of Negation
1 Stroke Of Genius
1 Repeal
1 Gush
1 Evacuation
1 Capsize
1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Frantic Search
1 Think Twice
1 Impulse
1 Telling Time
1 Opt
1 Brainstorm
Artifacts (5):
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Semsei's Divining Top
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
Lands (40):
40 Island
Suggestions?
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Looking for Karakas, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Aether Vials and more
+1 Strip Mine, +1 Wasteland, +1 Dust Bowl to deal with things like Maze of Ith
Roughly, I'd say you need
-Less conditional counters that suck in the late game, ie, Force Spike, etc.
-Definitely more bounce. I run somewhere between 13 and 16 on average. It changes daily.
-I run exactly 1 non flash creature, Gilded Drake. And even that might not be worth it.
-Arcane Denial is never worth a slot in a deck where card disadvantage is your worst enemy. I'd run this only in a combo deck where "the beginning of next turn" never takes place.
-Stroke should be Overwhelming Intellect imo. Frantic Search doesn't belong here either.
-Vedalken Shackles are worth it, in my experience, despite being antithetical to the deck's general strategy of never really playing anything on its own turn.
-RE: Commandeer, I still need to test this myself. How is it working out for you thus far?
- Brainstorm needs reshuffling effects to be of any real use. Sensei's Top also benefits from fetchlands and Thawing Glaciers.
Khymera could give you better advice than most, probably. I'll post my own list once I am content with it. It is still changing day by day.
Oh, and RE: Tunnel Vision—I'm not a fan.
While your list will certainly hold its own, there are plenty of things I would suggest changing.
I would take out every creature you are running, and replace them with Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Venser, Shaper Savant; I will occasionally run Sower of Temptation, depending on where I am playing. Draining Whelkis probably the most attractive of the creatures you are running, but even then, its just redundant. Freeing up those slots gives you more disruption, which is the overall goal.
As far as the counterspells go:
Logic Knot - its not as good as Power Sink (in most situations).
Broken Ambitions - I probably would not suggest running more than two X counterspells (with the exception of Spell Burst), as they are very prone to opening you up if you make mistakes, and are just not that efficient.
Commandeer - Seems like it would be awesome, but unless you are hard casting it, its horrible. -3 cards to Misdirection a random instant or sorcery that, most of the time, will not even benefit you is pretty rough. I would suggest running Spelljack or Overwhelming Intellect in its place, if you HAVE to have a counterspell with tricks.
Fervent Denial - Its a really best case scenario that you will be playing a Counterspell for seven mana. I would probably suggest (if you want a counterspell that does something besides just counter) Traumatic Visions.
[CARD]
Misdirection[/CARD] - Is really helpful in a few matchups, and is dead most of the other times. I would probably suggest replacing it with a good situational counterspell, like Remove Soul or Essence Scatter.
Spell Blast - You listed Spell Burst twice, so Im assuming that this is supposed to be Spell Blast ;), which would be the same as Broken Ambitions.
[CARD]
Rune Snag[/CARD] - I probably would not run Rune Snag and Miscalculation. Both are very situational, but Miscalculation is just strictly better than Rune Snag.
[CARD]
Arcane Denial[/CARD] - Huge card disadvantage, I would probably suggest running Remand in its place, if you are looking for a 1U spell.
Daze - I used to run this when Rofellos was in my play group, now that its not, I have never cast it.
[CARD]
Force Spike[/CARD] - See Daze. If you really want a U counterspell, Spell Pierce is probably better.
Disrupt - See Force Spike
[CARD]
Stifle[/CARD] - I dont run it, but depending on your play group, it may be viable.
Annul - Really good when your opponent casts an artifact or enchantment, worthless when they dont. Unless you can guarantee that your opponent will cast a relevant artifact or enchantment, I would not suggest running it.
Counterspells that you are not running that I would suggest taking a look at (and replacing some of the counterspells listed above):
[CARD]
Dream Fracture[/CARD], Faerie Trickery, Exclude, Essence Scatter, Dissipate, Disrupting Shoal, Remove Soul, Remand and Power Sink.
As far as your utility spells go:
[CARD]
Stroke of Genius[/CARD] - Alot of people will tell you not to run it, I am not one of those people. I have always had positive experiences with it.
Thirst for Knowledge and Frantic Search - Both of these cards do not net you any card advantage (which is your goal). IF you have to have an instant draw spell, I would suggest Careful Consideration.
Opt - Doesn't really grant you any card advantage. I would probably run Compulsion in its place.
Brainstorm and Ponder - People really look at me funny when they see I dont run either of these cards, but the truth is, they arent really that great for Clique. I would take an Inspiration over brainstorm 99% of the time.
Artifacts..:
Umezawa's Jitte - Just makes very little sense. You have no way to tutor for it, and is VERY situational. Best case scenario, you randomly draw it and play it, and you end the game a couple of turns earlier with clique.
[CARD]
Mana Vault[/CARD] and Mana Crypt - Im not sure what they are there for, I think the object of the deck is to curve it out, and just slow roll into a win, and I cant really see a point for either of these. They let you cast big counterspells earlier.. but thats what you have small counterspells for
Mana base:
Theres no reason to not run Scalding Tarn, Polluted Delta, Flooded Strand and Misty Rainforest. In addition to that, I would run the entire LD suite of Wasteland, Strip mine (or Ghost Quarter if strip mine is banned), and Dust Bowl. I would also include Maze of Ith, Lonely Sandbar, Remote Isle, Riptide Laboratory(which is very mean with venser), Academy ruins and a Tolaria West to tutor up any of those lands you need.
Switching to a Snow Covered mana base and running Scrying Sheets and Mouth of Ronom is also very good.
Additional thoughts:
I feel that there are alot of good cards that you may have looked over:
Spin into Myth, Nevinyrral's Disk, Crucible of Worlds (if not banned), Aether Spellbomb, Control Magic (some people will argue, ive had good success with it.), Vedalken Shackles, Crucible of Worlds (depending on what banned list you are playing), Compulsion, Inspiration, Relic of Progenitus (having some way to deal with graveyards is a good idea, not to mention that this one replaces itself.), Repulse, Fact or Fiction, Opportunity, Ancestral Visions, Jace, the Mind Sculptor (from what I can tell, I havent seen alot of people testing this, but I run it, and it has won plenty of games for me.) and!
Tunnel Vision: This is probably the most contested card I see in Clique lists, and for every person I see say they like it, there is another that says they dont. Personally, I Have been running it recently, and It has been my win condition a majority of the time. And even if you dont have a setup prior to casting, if you know what your opponent is playing, you will still be able to mill a majority of their deck. I am pro Tunnel Vision!
lolwut? Logic knot is basically a 2cc hard counter.
Free counters are free counters. Being able to nick an eot draw spell or something is huge, especially when it costs you 0 mana.
Free counter to win counter wars, shunt things like stroke or other draw to you, redirects LD and keeps things like vedalken shackles alive. Why would you *not* run it, as another iteration of FoW
2cc hard counter is a 2cc hard counter. Worth it *just* for the redundancy.
This is almost never going to be a dead draw. You can find some way to make it trigger.
So unless your opponent is playing a good deck with artifact accel/things like jitte its bad?
Sure. Sounds good to me.
Thirst is one of the best draw spells of all time. He just needs +1 Seat of the Synod, and maybe a darksteel citadel to have some things to pitch to it.
Also, careful consideration is the exact same raw CA as a bad thirst when cast as an instant.
Add some shuffle effects like fetches, and of a sudden brainstorm gets ridiculous. way better than impulse.
Artifacts..:
He had muddle the mixture.
Also randomly drawing jitte with your draw spells goes a ways to winning games you shouldn't.
Mana Vault and Mana Crypt - Im not sure what they are there for, I think the object of the deck is to curve it out, and just slow roll into a win, and I cant really see a point for either of these. They let you cast big counterspells earlier.. but thats what you have small counterspells for [/quote]
Artifact accel to be able to counter/draw, and both can be pitched to thirst for knowledge if necessary. How are those not good?
other than that you should run guile
Yes, Spellstutter Sprite is unremarkable and I even feel Venser is a little overrated, even with Riptide Lab plus ~13 bounce effects. It's worth it, but you can live without it.
I hope that is supposed to be a joke. Guile is one of the worst cards you could possibly run. You're tapping 6 during your main phase for something that won't immediately win the game. Not even a consideration if you're trying to be competitive, imo.
The best advice you can get.
Unless I am missing something, I was under the impression that Logic Knot is a soft counter (unless you are able to dump arbitrarily large number of cards in the graveyard.
If you recommend that OP removes every creature in the deck and replace them with two creatures with flash, I am not sure why Teferi is necessary. If you're worried about other blue decks, I should point out that pound for pound, V. Clique decks run more countermagic than most other monoblue generals (including Azami).
I should also point out that for all the suggestions to remove soft counterspells (e.g. Force Spike, Miscalculation, etc), I suspect that there is a misunderstanding on how (competitive) V. clique decks works. The idea isn't really so much of definitively countering a spell (hard counter). Rather, Clique decks are based on disrupting the opponent's tempo whilst giving the opponent something like a seven turn clock (my playgroup called Vendillion Clique "Blue Lightning" before I voluntarily banned that general) to either win the game or to remove Clique.
The soft counterspells are often there to give tempo disruptions to an opponent who will be forced to play around these soft counters (blissfully unaware that the Clique player is holding a handful of hard counters instead ;)). Given that a resolved Vendilion Clique would often put players on a quick seven-turn clock, soft counters don't actually "suck" in late game simply because for a clique deck, you aren't actually planning to get to that "late game".
Im going to guess and say you didnt play much with Timespiral. 80% of the time, Teferi is not used as an enabler of playing other creatures withflash. This is true of EDH, and every other format where he has been played. Teferi's roles are (in no order):
1) Combat Trick
2) the second best counterspell hoser printed (to vexing shusher)
3) A Terminate for opposing Teferi's (which just happens to be the worst matchup for this deck)
4) Shuts down instants for opponents (BIGGEST ONE)
The only way other decks have a hope of penetrating Cliques counter wall is playing threats at your EOT, and then untapping and casting more. Good opponents and good decks that are able will do this, mainly 5c decks and other blue based decks. Teferi completely negates this. He is essentially a complete hoser for the only 2 strategies that have a hope of competing with you, all while providing a decent body and a possible combat trick. Teferi should be included no questions asked.
Narglfrob covered this pretty much exactly. Teferi is there for a) tricks, and b) any deck that runs instants. it soft locks the game and essentially hard locks it when you have venser and riptide lab.
Maybe you were speaking to someone else... I have been playing Clique with a nearly perfect record for over a year, so I venture to say that I have an intimate understanding of how the deck works ;P
While your point is valid (cheap disruption is good), it doesnt hold up. You are suggesting running bad cheap disruption, that will likely take 2-3 spells to even make an opponent think late game, netting you a huge card disadvantage, which you never want to do. Opposed to running good cheap disruption (such as Remand). I can almost guarantee that against a player who isnt completely incompetent, you will hardly ever catch a spell with force spike.
IMO, the only reason to run force spike is in a rofellos heavy environment.
Also, I never suggested he take out miscalculation (I run it), I suggested that Miscalculation is strictly better than Rune Snag (which is irrefutable).
I dont like that plan at all. That is assuming their general resolved, and that you dont have an answer to it at all. I would much rather have Control Magic or Spin into Myth in my hand.
Spellstutter sprite is decent, but id much rather have a counterspell. The fact that it has legs doesnt really appeal much to me, considering I cant recall a game I have won based on non-general combat damage.
Though I agree with many of your other recommendations, I think these two in particular are way off. Stifle (and Trickbind, and Interdict) are all great cards in Clique. As someone else said, there is ALWAYS something to Stifle, be it an enchantment trigger, a creature/artifact/land activated ability, or even a fetchland. One of these three should be in just about every Blue deck I can think of.
Brainstorm is better than Ponder, but both are amazing. There's a reason both are restricted in Type 1 (and Impulse isn't), and that is because they are nuts. With so many fetches and shuffle effects you'd be crazy not to run them. Not only are they card advantage but they let you organize your draws, put back cards you don't want discarded, or cards that aren't currently useful. With fetchlands and tutors you can shuffle them away to improve your chance of relevant draws.
d.g
I guess it depends on your playgroup alot of the time too, but I have never seen a stiflable ability from a card that has resolved end the game for me. Sure, you can stifle a fetch land or a maze of ith activation... but nothing game shattering, and thats what I base my premise off of. Sure, you could run Cry of Contrition in any black deck.. but it seems underwhelming.
As far as brainstorm goes, its a similiar situation. Brainstorm nets you +0 cards, just like impulse, it just replaces itself; but the difference is impulse lets you dig alot further, and it lets you chose the most powerful card out of a set, and remove the rest as variables. With a properly tuned list, every card you draw is a threat, and the percieved advantage of having 7 cards in your hand goes a long way into shaking your opponent. Now, if heavy discard decks were more prevelant in my area, I would probably include brainstorm, but until then, I doubt it will make its way in.
@brainstorm
Its one of the most powerful blue spells ever printed. Running it with fetchlands AND other effects like impulse will give you a more consistent deck.
@40 lands
lol no way too many. Look at my list higher in this thread for the best clique landbase (just add all four fetches)
Ill post later not on my phone.
My Damia Control/Oath deck runs 39+maze and two ramp spells, and it's barely adequate.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary