On the topic of philosophy, I tend to agree with merdock271, in the face of control, threat density is oft the best answer, even when highly tutor able hosers exist (which in our case they do not).
Also, just wanted to point out that you are letting some preconceptions cloud your analysis Riley.
"and black players are pretty wily and will always leave mana open for an instant speed kill, or just Thought Seize your sword straight to hell from your hand"
This is an inaccurate portrayal of Sofaf's disadvantages. It is equally vulnerable to hand disruption as any other card in your deck, and you suffer no unique hindrance should it get discarded, thus it should not be listed in the "cons" column. Secondly, the fact that black mages "have" to leave up mana for removal in response to equip is a "pro", not a "con" compared to other equipments. You are limiting their options, and while yes they still have options (removing in resp to equip) you are taking them away one by one which is the road to victory.
I think you are correct however, in that the land untap affect is less valuable to you than it is to a wizard with lots of instant speed control. Valuable enough? I'll leave that to you guys.
Go for it Riley. I haven't played Sisay in a while now, partly because I've grown a bit bored with the deck's hyper linear nature and partly because I've become somewhat disenfranchised with 1v1 Commander. And also because my friend Khymera is in medical school and is effectively done with MTG for good.
I apologize for not updating this thread in an eternity. It's obvious that you've put far more effort into the deck recently which is awesome.
Woohoo! Torch = passed. Thank you. =)
I hope you return to duel EDH one day! When you do, the Sisay thread will be here for you, hopefully scarier than ever.
@merdock: I welcome you to join in on Cockatrice and test your version of Sisay (which is 95% similar to my version of Sisay and has almost exactly the same game plan, so I don't understand all the incredulous guff) against French and Salvation players' Edric, Sygg, Lyzolda, Isamaru, Doran, Zur, Clique, and Geist and report back to this thread. I'd take your deck over to Cockatrice myself, but I doubt you'd trust my report (also because we may actually play the deck quite differently after all, but I don't think we do). =P
On Hokori: He does nothing against the above-mentioned decks. A Winter Orb that hits the field two turns later and is more vulnerable to removal (though that's a minor point) isn't effective against the above decks that either puke out their hands (and with the same elf ramp guys we're using) and run low curves and play a spell a turn anyway or they puke out their hands to kill you with more efficient aggro creatures while only needing 2-3 mana available per turn for kill spells. The situation where you'd set up Sword of Feast and Famine for 5 mana on Hokori for 4 is just not.. possible in the French meta. I can see it happening frequently against other slow, mid-range decks--but those decks aren't a thing in this meta. Sisay is kind of alone in that regard, and it's not enough for me to build "the best B-Tier deck." I want to bring Sisay to the top! Certain controversial cuts have to be made to reach that goal.
Often, my mana dorks are killed or countered immediately, so even trying to get to the point where I'm playing 3 cmc spells is difficult, and those cards have to have an impact. Sadly, I'm even considering cutting Thousand-Year Elixir again. =/
I may be wrong about Feast and Famine, but my experience with black-heavy decks in the meta thus far are Iname, Lyzolda, and Zur. The first will just combo and kill you probably at the precise moment (but likely even sooner) that you're even able to equip the Sword. Lyzolda is far too fast for the sword, and really really does have THAT much instant speed removal. My experience against Zur... the Zur player will just counter everything relevant, and everything else can be ignored. Feast and Famine is a spell that Zur can ignore or remove during combat, should he feel compelled.
I understand that decks don't have "endless" answers, but they have significantly more in the French Meta than most (I'd presume! And I thought my meta was going overboard with answers). Not only do our cards need to be efficiently costed but they have to prove themselves useful in the circumstances that they're meant to serve us best. Feast and Famine and Hokori both do not have a place in this deck in the French meta for being irrelevant against the top black decks and for being too slow and counter-productive, respectively.
I took out Dosan some time ago. Insist has the potential to steal games, and replaces itself for one G if not. It might not make the final cut, but for now it hasn't frustrated me.
I DO like your build, and I've obviously taken some of your suggestions and put them right into my deck, but I think we could both benefit from lowering our curves and playing more 2 drops. Your take especially could benefit from Serra Avenger and maybe Knight of the Meadowgrain?? Or the Knights with built-in protections.
Actually, yeah! I'm gonna drop Elixir and Insist for now and try out.. something different.
Testing Nevermore, too, despite being made fun of. =P
@Narg: Haha it seems like my attitude drastically changes about this deck from one day to the next. Some days everything goes eerily well and I sweep my matches and some days I lose every time. But I think, the more "top generals" I play against, the better sense I get of how this deck wants to play. I think it still has tier 1 potential, but I'm still learning what I'm up against and how best to respond. But yeah, I'm getting a pretty good sense of what doesn't work in Sisay, and she really wants to run different things than the blue-based and/or control decks.
Blah blah blah I need to get crackin' on that Primer...
The idea of making the curve lower and playing more aggressive cards is interesting to me, but I'm not sure it's the direction you want to go, particularly with 1-dimensional cards like knight of meadowgrain, which are essentially just combat cards (this is ironic, since I suggested Mirran Crusader...). The problem is that I STILL want to resolve Sisay on turn 3 whenever possible. That's the main goal of the deck, and I tend to win games when I do that. Cards like Mirran Crusader are solid because they can actually just win the game on their own, or with minimal help from other cards (sword, norn, etc.), while knight of meadowgrain will always be "okay but not great" and doesnt become a powerhouse in conjunction with other cards in your deck the way that crusader does. It's also not enough of a threat for most opponents to warrant a counterspell, which is what you want to be baiting from their hand.
My sisay deck definitely needs some work, I'll admit that. I haven't played enough against extreme control decks, and I think it's high time I took a new approach to building the deck (probably starting from scratch with the cards that I have found to be invaluable) so that ideas like adding knight of the white orchid don't feel so foreign to me (right now it just seems to clash with how I think about the deck).
I'd be surprised if nevermore is any good. I generally dislike effects like that (as does LSV, apparently, so I feel well-supported) even though they're obviously better in EDH if you can play it before their general. Note that if you can't, or you dont have a good answer to their General after you play it, the card will just be terrible.
Again, I'm sad that Hokori isn't being considered. Note that you don't go get Hokori unless they've tapped down a bit, making it worse against the strict draw-go decks, but a good situational card. Very few decks can afford to be strictly draw-go (pretty much just mono-u), and Hokori is a good tutor target for those times when your board pressure forces them to tap out. It's been phenomenal for me, but this could just because we play the deck differently. (I, for example, rarely win games with kamahl and norn, any type of strict combo, etc. My games tend to end with my opponent locked out by a protected hokori and me bashing in with random guys, or with me resolving a major threat (like iona or primeval, which, by the way, is a strong pattern of rebirth target despite costing only 6) and locking them out/obtaining a lot of value that they can't deal with.
It's definitely possible that we play the deck really differently, and I'm starting to feel like that must be true.
I'm adding your deck to the primer as a sample deck, since it does sound like we approach the build quite differently. It's been so long since I've played Primeval Titan in the deck that I'd forgotten how differently the deck played with him! -_-
If/Whenever you update your list substantially, let me know and I'll be sure to update the OP.
I think Meadowgrain may be better in my version than yours only because oh my god I need lifegain and actual blockers to get to the mid-game against the ground-aggro decks. For you, I'd think Serra Avenger would be better. I may consider running Kitchen Finks... I dunno, I'm desperate! Lyzolda really rattled me quite a bit.
Hi, just a few questions. Is playing snow covered lands a must? As far as i can see, you play the lands so you can fetch it via into the north so i am wondering if there are better alternatives whilst using plain forests and plains? thanks
There if you take a look at my list (listed second on the first post), you see that I don't play any snow lands and have no reason to. If you are playing cards like Into the North, snow lands would be required, but I dont think these cards are necessary at all (and, in fact, if you're playing competitive 1v1 I think they're worse than the alternatives).
If you have any other thoughts/questions, post them in the new thread!
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Also, just wanted to point out that you are letting some preconceptions cloud your analysis Riley.
"and black players are pretty wily and will always leave mana open for an instant speed kill, or just Thought Seize your sword straight to hell from your hand"
This is an inaccurate portrayal of Sofaf's disadvantages. It is equally vulnerable to hand disruption as any other card in your deck, and you suffer no unique hindrance should it get discarded, thus it should not be listed in the "cons" column. Secondly, the fact that black mages "have" to leave up mana for removal in response to equip is a "pro", not a "con" compared to other equipments. You are limiting their options, and while yes they still have options (removing in resp to equip) you are taking them away one by one which is the road to victory.
I think you are correct however, in that the land untap affect is less valuable to you than it is to a wizard with lots of instant speed control. Valuable enough? I'll leave that to you guys.
Woohoo! Torch = passed. Thank you. =)
I hope you return to duel EDH one day! When you do, the Sisay thread will be here for you, hopefully scarier than ever.
@merdock: I welcome you to join in on Cockatrice and test your version of Sisay (which is 95% similar to my version of Sisay and has almost exactly the same game plan, so I don't understand all the incredulous guff) against French and Salvation players' Edric, Sygg, Lyzolda, Isamaru, Doran, Zur, Clique, and Geist and report back to this thread. I'd take your deck over to Cockatrice myself, but I doubt you'd trust my report (also because we may actually play the deck quite differently after all, but I don't think we do). =P
On Hokori: He does nothing against the above-mentioned decks. A Winter Orb that hits the field two turns later and is more vulnerable to removal (though that's a minor point) isn't effective against the above decks that either puke out their hands (and with the same elf ramp guys we're using) and run low curves and play a spell a turn anyway or they puke out their hands to kill you with more efficient aggro creatures while only needing 2-3 mana available per turn for kill spells. The situation where you'd set up Sword of Feast and Famine for 5 mana on Hokori for 4 is just not.. possible in the French meta. I can see it happening frequently against other slow, mid-range decks--but those decks aren't a thing in this meta. Sisay is kind of alone in that regard, and it's not enough for me to build "the best B-Tier deck." I want to bring Sisay to the top! Certain controversial cuts have to be made to reach that goal.
Often, my mana dorks are killed or countered immediately, so even trying to get to the point where I'm playing 3 cmc spells is difficult, and those cards have to have an impact. Sadly, I'm even considering cutting Thousand-Year Elixir again. =/
I may be wrong about Feast and Famine, but my experience with black-heavy decks in the meta thus far are Iname, Lyzolda, and Zur. The first will just combo and kill you probably at the precise moment (but likely even sooner) that you're even able to equip the Sword. Lyzolda is far too fast for the sword, and really really does have THAT much instant speed removal. My experience against Zur... the Zur player will just counter everything relevant, and everything else can be ignored. Feast and Famine is a spell that Zur can ignore or remove during combat, should he feel compelled.
I understand that decks don't have "endless" answers, but they have significantly more in the French Meta than most (I'd presume! And I thought my meta was going overboard with answers). Not only do our cards need to be efficiently costed but they have to prove themselves useful in the circumstances that they're meant to serve us best. Feast and Famine and Hokori both do not have a place in this deck in the French meta for being irrelevant against the top black decks and for being too slow and counter-productive, respectively.
I took out Dosan some time ago. Insist has the potential to steal games, and replaces itself for one G if not. It might not make the final cut, but for now it hasn't frustrated me.
I DO like your build, and I've obviously taken some of your suggestions and put them right into my deck, but I think we could both benefit from lowering our curves and playing more 2 drops. Your take especially could benefit from Serra Avenger and maybe Knight of the Meadowgrain?? Or the Knights with built-in protections.
Actually, yeah! I'm gonna drop Elixir and Insist for now and try out.. something different.
Testing Nevermore, too, despite being made fun of. =P
@Narg: Haha it seems like my attitude drastically changes about this deck from one day to the next. Some days everything goes eerily well and I sweep my matches and some days I lose every time. But I think, the more "top generals" I play against, the better sense I get of how this deck wants to play. I think it still has tier 1 potential, but I'm still learning what I'm up against and how best to respond. But yeah, I'm getting a pretty good sense of what doesn't work in Sisay, and she really wants to run different things than the blue-based and/or control decks.
Blah blah blah I need to get crackin' on that Primer...
EDIT: Slotted in Knight of Meadowgrain and Knight of the White Orchard. Should be good!
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
My sisay deck definitely needs some work, I'll admit that. I haven't played enough against extreme control decks, and I think it's high time I took a new approach to building the deck (probably starting from scratch with the cards that I have found to be invaluable) so that ideas like adding knight of the white orchid don't feel so foreign to me (right now it just seems to clash with how I think about the deck).
I'd be surprised if nevermore is any good. I generally dislike effects like that (as does LSV, apparently, so I feel well-supported) even though they're obviously better in EDH if you can play it before their general. Note that if you can't, or you dont have a good answer to their General after you play it, the card will just be terrible.
Again, I'm sad that Hokori isn't being considered. Note that you don't go get Hokori unless they've tapped down a bit, making it worse against the strict draw-go decks, but a good situational card. Very few decks can afford to be strictly draw-go (pretty much just mono-u), and Hokori is a good tutor target for those times when your board pressure forces them to tap out. It's been phenomenal for me, but this could just because we play the deck differently. (I, for example, rarely win games with kamahl and norn, any type of strict combo, etc. My games tend to end with my opponent locked out by a protected hokori and me bashing in with random guys, or with me resolving a major threat (like iona or primeval, which, by the way, is a strong pattern of rebirth target despite costing only 6) and locking them out/obtaining a lot of value that they can't deal with.
It's definitely possible that we play the deck really differently, and I'm starting to feel like that must be true.
Good luck with the primer! Hope all goes well.
If/Whenever you update your list substantially, let me know and I'll be sure to update the OP.
I think Meadowgrain may be better in my version than yours only because oh my god I need lifegain and actual blockers to get to the mid-game against the ground-aggro decks. For you, I'd think Serra Avenger would be better. I may consider running Kitchen Finks... I dunno, I'm desperate! Lyzolda really rattled me quite a bit.
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
There if you take a look at my list (listed second on the first post), you see that I don't play any snow lands and have no reason to. If you are playing cards like Into the North, snow lands would be required, but I dont think these cards are necessary at all (and, in fact, if you're playing competitive 1v1 I think they're worse than the alternatives).
If you have any other thoughts/questions, post them in the new thread!