EDH is a creative and fun format. You know what isn't those things? Netdecking. I know i will get in trouble for posting this here, but before you quickly dismiss what i am saying. Consider how many strong formats there are in magic that are just fun?
I love the competitive part of the game, and i am a semi-pro player with an upper 1800 ratting. However, EDH is something i think we need to try and protect from becoming a format like type 2 where there are only a handful of decks.
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The Tea Party is the working class fighting against the man fighting for the working class.
It's called EDH kids, there is no such thing as commander.
I agree with you, but to an extent. To quote a former store owner that I played with:
"If I was ever done [building] my [EDH] deck, I don't think I'd play the format any more."
EDH was not meant to be some format where you whip up and buy a $500 deck on the spot. However, you need to have some idea what kind of deck you want before you build it. Which is what this forum does very well. For example, I recently learned about using Paradox Haze and Head Games in a Sen Triplets deck. By sharing our information with others, we can make sure that our decks are built in the best possible way.
Also, some people see Magic as, simply put, a game to win (Spikes). While I don't encourage this train of thought, I respect it, and I have no issues with a bunch of like-minded Spikes getting together for a game of EDH (mixture's where the problems start to come in). And I find that even the Spikes play EDH somewhat casually; they won't automatically buy the best cards anymore, they'll learn how to act nice to the non-Spikes, and competitive EDH may even teach Spikes how to "play for fun" in the long run.
So, in conclusion, I have no issue with a forum devoted to "competitive EDH," because I believe that it's all up to the player in the first place (guns don't kill people; people kill people).
I disagree. Yes, it's lame if someone purely netdecks, but I like discussing card choices and seeing what others have done. While I certainly pick ideas from others, I make each one of my decks my own.
I actually think it's much harder to straight netdeck in EDH than it is in standard because the card pool is so large. There are just so many possible strategies that it's impossible to netdeck against. Plus, the multiplayer element adds another layer of unpredictability. Basically, netdecking only works when the metagame is somewhat consistent, and it's just not in EDH.
Yes, some cards go with certain generals, but the only generals were there are an abundance of these are the boring generals like Zur. For the fun generals, there's lots of room for innovation and making the deck your own.
EDH is a mostly casual format. Magic players are mostly casual. See where I'm going with this?
Throwing a few spikes into the mix isn't going to ruin the format by any means. In fact, the casual gaming circles will either shun these players or they will get over it and make their decks a little stronger to compete. Given from what I hear from many casual circles, it will probably be the first one, which will just cause spike players to gravitate towards each other.
Some people like to build wacky decks that may not win, but will be really fun(ny) to play. Others, like myself, enjoy crazy plays but like when their decks are tuned machines--although I'm really somewhere more in the middle. Both are valid ways to play the game and anyone who thinks otherwise is an arse. The like minded players will just find each other and th format will continue undestroyed...
EDH is a creative and fun format. You know what isn't those things? Netdecking. I know i will get in trouble for posting this here, but before you quickly dismiss what i am saying. Consider how many strong formats there are in magic that are just fun?
I love the competitive part of the game, and i am a semi-pro player with an upper 1800 ratting. However, EDH is something i think we need to try and protect from becoming a format like type 2 where there are only a handful of decks.
LOL why is netdecking even an issue HAHAHAHA That has absolutely nothing what so ever with being detrimental to EDH. Even if they did make EDH into a competetive format netdecking is the fastest way to lose a game anyway. EDH is a complex format. Unless you build your deck to do the same thing specifically each time you play the deck (eg. Some kind of storm deck... which is lame btw cause I cant get it to do that :[ ) you cant make a deck win consistently 100% of the time, its even hard to get it to do that 90% of the time.
The best ive seen consistently in the year or so Ive been playing EDH is 70% Lets take 2 decks that have think kind of win ratio/percentage its more or less a toss up (I am nowhere good enough at math to figure out) because of the huge number of starting draws your deck can have and players skill level matter tremendously. Example the deck in question that gets a 7/10 Win:Loss ratio is my store owner Jenkins deck.
IMO it is probably the best deck in the format(but thats another story) His results differ in the hands of the player. In his hands 7/10 he is way better than I am at Magic. In my hands its more or less like a coin flip because I dont understand which plays are the best with the deck cause I didnt build it. I understand how it works after losing to it alot but I cant get the same win ratio. A local scrub (who is getting better btw if he reads this lol) plays with the deck and loses every time even though he knows how the deck works and has lost to it and played with it alot. Ive said it before about EDH decks "EDH decks are like fingerprints, even if you try to steal someones identity you will still never be that person." An individual makes them and pilots them...
Actually nevermind lol Ill be writing all day if I try to elaborate more. No offense but I dont think you have a strong understanding of the format. You might be a spectacular magic player, likely better than I am with an 1800 rating but Its been my experience that most competitive players dont have a good grasp of EDH. I could be wrong but I dont know that many...
(Taking someones advice to use paragraphs when I go off lol Is it easier to read?)
What can I say that hasn't been said already?
This format is so different, there are so many factors in which netdecking is damn near impossible. Since decks are singleton, a one card difference in a deck can be huge, and honestly you're just plain being uncreative if you try and copy someone else's exact deck. You can take ideas or the initial spark to make a deck from someone else's idea, but to go and copy the whole deck is a it extreme, and basically I'm just going into the start of Chris' post. The idea of this thread is to discuss competitive decklists and card choices. Some casual choices are fun, and funny. But honestly Im not going to be running Theives Auction in my EDH, it is fun, but I would rather draw a threat then a fun card in a tournament.
Chris et al. are right. Netdecking is only going to lead to failure, so I just don't see it as a problem.
In multiplayer, you'll be ganged up on if your deck looks really efficient or if it explodes too quickly.
In 1v1, everyone ought to be packing hate for the best decks in the format (Clique, Zur, Rofellos, etc.) so playing a really common strategy could easily backfire.
The EDH cardpool is just too deep to totally netdeck, but I really do think it's a good thing when people look at lists online for inspiration. It's how innovation and growth happens in the format, and I think the fact that decks seem to be getting better and faster is a positive thing.
The point that Netdecking is ok cause if someone copy's a deck online they won't be able to play it right is missing the idea. The problem with netdecking is that it decreased originality. Sure, if you are a bad player and are playing one of the most popular EDH decks you will still likely loose.
However, them loosing slove the problem. I don't want to play the same decks all the time. I want EDH to be fun, so i can use the cards i can't use in STD or EXT.
I understand the need to network ideas. Sometimes you need to look for cards from the past to help you. But the idea of there being a EDH forum for "good" decks isn't helping the format growth at a helthy rate.
Again, i am not a casual player, and i love the more devoted aspect of the game. I am not sticking up for noobs, or trying to make the game easy, or make 13/13's good. I just want people to build their own decks.
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The Tea Party is the working class fighting against the man fighting for the working class.
It's called EDH kids, there is no such thing as commander.
Actually playing your edh deck should only be half of the fun, If your deck isn't a living thing that grows and develops and makes you see otherwise bad cards in a new light you have officially misunderstood the purpose of the format. Your deck should contain the cards you want to play, not some imaginary tuned list that someone else made. Thats like raising someone elses baby.
I dont see this thread or any other competitive EDH threads negatively impact the EDH format.
I think it can actually only help the format. Yeah, i know playing against an Erayo fast lock deck, or a fully powered (moxes, etc) Vendilion Clique/Tunnel Visions deck can't be much fun, but so long as those decks exist in a multiplayer game, its no big deal. I want to see the deck that can consistantly win when 3 or more people gang up on it. (It might change my additude.)
When people take a Multiplayer format and try to make at a 1v1 format is really where i see the problem, imo.
EDH is a creative and fun format. You know what isn't those things? Netdecking. I know i will get in trouble for posting this here, but before you quickly dismiss what i am saying. Consider how many strong formats there are in magic that are just fun?
I love the competitive part of the game, and i am a semi-pro player with an upper 1800 ratting. However, EDH is something i think we need to try and protect from becoming a format like type 2 where there are only a handful of decks.
Multiplayer formats are inherently balanced. Anyone who plays a better and//or more annoying deck will be taken out more quickly because of that.
Netdecking isn't much of an issue in EDH because people generally take it casually and it's difficult to netdeck 99 card lists.
It's pretty impossible to change what other people do, so there's no clear way to "protect" EDH if it was in danger.
If you do want to try to break it (which I find interesting), make up a deck for the mtgsalvation EDH tourney that runs every few months.
The reality is better compared to an information cascade than netdecking. I do sometimes feel that there's so many 'auto-includes' in any given color that the space for the actual deck concept gets a tad restricted. So I start with a deck concept and see what auto-includes I have room for...
When it comes down to it a lot of similarities between decks would exist anyway simply because there's so many cards that are known to be really good.
i don't think it'll be a big deal in the long run. we started to get into edh in my playgroup and a few of the guys who go to all the big events and net deck for standard ran right to this forum to copy edh lists for themselves. some of them made really competitive decks and won a lot. no one wanted to play against them any more. others made really terrible decks and didn't change anything at all. they lost a lot. in all cases they eventually made decks for themselves with the information from here as a basis for their own designs and fun was had by all.
Even with the people who netdeck(a sin in my opinion) there will always be rogue decks that take people by suprise.some of the best generals are mono-color anyway.(I use kazuul tyrant of the cliffs and my brother uses shirei shizo's caretaker) the idea that one specific deck is better than all the others out there is preposterous. The truth is that 100 card singlrton is almost foolproof in its ability to thwart the consistancy factor 90 percent of the time. The rest is what players decide to do at the table. I played a edh tourney tonight. At the firs table I killed every other player(total of 4) the second game I couldn't stay out. Just came down to how people played and what they played when. So I hope every one has fun in the format.
Well, this thread has been an interesting read so far, so I thought I'd share my thoughts. While I don't think netdecking can kill the format, I do think that not changing your deck to become competitive will. There are so many cards available that are better than Grizzly Bears and by playing them I would see you as a person who just wants to cast spells and not really play.
Unfortunately, my playgroup doesn't like getting their spells countered or controlled by someone else so if your playing blue with any sort of control you will be the first one killed. Our group usually has 5+ people playing and if your the only Blue deck be prepared to be killed first.
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I only learned one thing in kindergarten: The bigger you were, the less you had to share!
Yes blue is usually the first color to go. Mostly because the best blue stuff is fairly expensive and the longer a blue deck is alive the more chance it has to win. And ther is so much combo potential that people want their creatures to kill. Not combo out.
Fun is subjective. By saying a format is meant only to be fun is vague because it will be fun for anyone who plays, competitively or casually. Some people have more fun playing to win, and if you're always losing, the game tends to be less fun.
There is nothing wrong with this section because if people are serious about making their deck more serious and powerful, they will come here. Otherwise, there's no point in ever coming to these boards because all you really need is Gatherer to make your deck.
Wait, so I'm not allowed to make my deck the best that it can be!?!?!?
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Complaining about card prices accomplishes nothing. Read some Medina articles, learn to trade better, don’t act like the only way to do ANYTHING in this game is to price out decks and buy every single you ever need.
Actually playing your edh deck should only be half of the fun, If your deck isn't a living thing that grows and develops and makes you see otherwise bad cards in a new light you have officially misunderstood the purpose of the format. Your deck should contain the cards you want to play, not some imaginary tuned list that someone else made. Thats like raising someone elses baby.
Quoted for truth. I love that feeling when I set my deck down, put my general in the corner and have people do a double-take and ask what the heck Patron of the Moon does. After that, they sort of sit back shuffling their deck with a face that, to me, seems to say, "Weird, but...OK."
While I credit Funkydragon's thread for Savra, Queen of the Golgari as a huge influence on how my own deck was designed, I can never play anyone else's deck. It just feels odd, and I like to have my own personal touch to it (Favorite cards, certain types of synergies I prefer, etc.)
Example: Playing non-EDH casual with some friends. Two of us have a :symw::symu: deck with a large amount of Azorius from Ravnica. One day we did a random deck game, were we put them all into the middle and rolled for them. We ended up with each other's deck. Let's just say, it was awkward. Despite having about 85% of the same cards, those last 5-10 cards made a huge difference on how it was played. I prefer more of a laid-back, diplomatic-style, while he essentially goes all-out. It was hard to adapt.
EDH is and should stay casual. This doesn't mean that you must not pimp and optimize your deck. Competitive means playing the same staple degenerate cards, continually debating about what cards should be banned or not, netdecking... All of which is totally opposite to the spirit of EDH.
There are several levels of netdecking. For me, grasping some ideas or concepts and tuning them with my pool of cards is relevant. Yet, playing with other people's lists is like making love with a corpse.
The OP used the accurate expression: "creative and fun"
Who is anyone to say what the spirit of EDH is? If I want to play those staple cards, then I will. If I want to discuss the power of a card, then I will, and no one can tell me that it's not "the spirit of EDH"
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Complaining about card prices accomplishes nothing. Read some Medina articles, learn to trade better, don’t act like the only way to do ANYTHING in this game is to price out decks and buy every single you ever need.
My take on EDH is if you net deck, your probably doing it wrong. Also, with 99 card decks, and the partial mulligan rule, there is just so much player choice involved. Any tutor becomes very toolboxy, and your always going to have multiple cards you can play at any given time.
I will say however, its sometimes interesting to play someone else's deck. One of my friends has a mayael deck which does pretty nicely in multiplayer, and is decent in 1 v 1 but not tier 1.
Anyways, it was shocking to see how different it plays when he lends it to someone else and they play it. Vince (deck owner) normally plays mayael the turn before he has the mana to use her ability and just ramps as it comes along, but not excessively, draws lands every turn if he can, and simply plays creatures starting when he can. When Jay got his hands on it, he did nothing but ramp until all lands were out of the deck (which isn't as hard as it sounds with oracle mul daya, keeper of progenitus, mirari's wake, recross the path, bloodbraid elf , STE, and other relevant little dudes. For the record, Recross the paths wins about 80% of the clashes because he finds someone with a land on top and just keeps plugging away. And when its lost, ulamog or artisan or emrakul shuffles it back in.
Anycase, deck went from being big creatures starting early, to massive ramp until all lands are out of the deck, then play all accumulated creatures, pay 20 for all those eldrazi spells you own from outside the game (including a chameleon colossus which got pumped to somewhere well into the thousands, swung and killed someone completely, and then was sacrificed to momentus fall to draw him over a thousand cards.... and so lost the game after basically winning the game.
Each deck is tailored to ones specific playing field. I know im guilty at looking at other people's list I don't straight out netdeck because sometimes I just don't like the card choices. To a degree I think you have a point but since EDH is not sanctioned yet I doubt netdecking will be a rampant problem.
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I love the competitive part of the game, and i am a semi-pro player with an upper 1800 ratting. However, EDH is something i think we need to try and protect from becoming a format like type 2 where there are only a handful of decks.
"If I was ever done [building] my [EDH] deck, I don't think I'd play the format any more."
EDH was not meant to be some format where you whip up and buy a $500 deck on the spot. However, you need to have some idea what kind of deck you want before you build it. Which is what this forum does very well. For example, I recently learned about using Paradox Haze and Head Games in a Sen Triplets deck. By sharing our information with others, we can make sure that our decks are built in the best possible way.
Also, some people see Magic as, simply put, a game to win (Spikes). While I don't encourage this train of thought, I respect it, and I have no issues with a bunch of like-minded Spikes getting together for a game of EDH (mixture's where the problems start to come in). And I find that even the Spikes play EDH somewhat casually; they won't automatically buy the best cards anymore, they'll learn how to act nice to the non-Spikes, and competitive EDH may even teach Spikes how to "play for fun" in the long run.
So, in conclusion, I have no issue with a forum devoted to "competitive EDH," because I believe that it's all up to the player in the first place (guns don't kill people; people kill people).
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GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
I actually think it's much harder to straight netdeck in EDH than it is in standard because the card pool is so large. There are just so many possible strategies that it's impossible to netdeck against. Plus, the multiplayer element adds another layer of unpredictability. Basically, netdecking only works when the metagame is somewhat consistent, and it's just not in EDH.
Yes, some cards go with certain generals, but the only generals were there are an abundance of these are the boring generals like Zur. For the fun generals, there's lots of room for innovation and making the deck your own.
Throwing a few spikes into the mix isn't going to ruin the format by any means. In fact, the casual gaming circles will either shun these players or they will get over it and make their decks a little stronger to compete. Given from what I hear from many casual circles, it will probably be the first one, which will just cause spike players to gravitate towards each other.
Some people like to build wacky decks that may not win, but will be really fun(ny) to play. Others, like myself, enjoy crazy plays but like when their decks are tuned machines--although I'm really somewhere more in the middle. Both are valid ways to play the game and anyone who thinks otherwise is an arse. The like minded players will just find each other and th format will continue undestroyed...
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
LOL why is netdecking even an issue HAHAHAHA That has absolutely nothing what so ever with being detrimental to EDH. Even if they did make EDH into a competetive format netdecking is the fastest way to lose a game anyway. EDH is a complex format. Unless you build your deck to do the same thing specifically each time you play the deck (eg. Some kind of storm deck... which is lame btw cause I cant get it to do that :[ ) you cant make a deck win consistently 100% of the time, its even hard to get it to do that 90% of the time.
The best ive seen consistently in the year or so Ive been playing EDH is 70% Lets take 2 decks that have think kind of win ratio/percentage its more or less a toss up (I am nowhere good enough at math to figure out) because of the huge number of starting draws your deck can have and players skill level matter tremendously. Example the deck in question that gets a 7/10 Win:Loss ratio is my store owner Jenkins deck.
IMO it is probably the best deck in the format(but thats another story) His results differ in the hands of the player. In his hands 7/10 he is way better than I am at Magic. In my hands its more or less like a coin flip because I dont understand which plays are the best with the deck cause I didnt build it. I understand how it works after losing to it alot but I cant get the same win ratio. A local scrub (who is getting better btw if he reads this lol) plays with the deck and loses every time even though he knows how the deck works and has lost to it and played with it alot. Ive said it before about EDH decks "EDH decks are like fingerprints, even if you try to steal someones identity you will still never be that person." An individual makes them and pilots them...
Actually nevermind lol Ill be writing all day if I try to elaborate more. No offense but I dont think you have a strong understanding of the format. You might be a spectacular magic player, likely better than I am with an 1800 rating but Its been my experience that most competitive players dont have a good grasp of EDH. I could be wrong but I dont know that many...
(Taking someones advice to use paragraphs when I go off lol Is it easier to read?)
This format is so different, there are so many factors in which netdecking is damn near impossible. Since decks are singleton, a one card difference in a deck can be huge, and honestly you're just plain being uncreative if you try and copy someone else's exact deck. You can take ideas or the initial spark to make a deck from someone else's idea, but to go and copy the whole deck is a it extreme, and basically I'm just going into the start of Chris' post. The idea of this thread is to discuss competitive decklists and card choices. Some casual choices are fun, and funny. But honestly Im not going to be running Theives Auction in my EDH, it is fun, but I would rather draw a threat then a fun card in a tournament.
Yes. I made it through your entire post.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
HAHAHA see im not a complete brick wall I take constructive criticism very well ;]
In multiplayer, you'll be ganged up on if your deck looks really efficient or if it explodes too quickly.
In 1v1, everyone ought to be packing hate for the best decks in the format (Clique, Zur, Rofellos, etc.) so playing a really common strategy could easily backfire.
The EDH cardpool is just too deep to totally netdeck, but I really do think it's a good thing when people look at lists online for inspiration. It's how innovation and growth happens in the format, and I think the fact that decks seem to be getting better and faster is a positive thing.
However, them loosing slove the problem. I don't want to play the same decks all the time. I want EDH to be fun, so i can use the cards i can't use in STD or EXT.
I understand the need to network ideas. Sometimes you need to look for cards from the past to help you. But the idea of there being a EDH forum for "good" decks isn't helping the format growth at a helthy rate.
Again, i am not a casual player, and i love the more devoted aspect of the game. I am not sticking up for noobs, or trying to make the game easy, or make 13/13's good. I just want people to build their own decks.
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I think it can actually only help the format. Yeah, i know playing against an Erayo fast lock deck, or a fully powered (moxes, etc) Vendilion Clique/Tunnel Visions deck can't be much fun, but so long as those decks exist in a multiplayer game, its no big deal. I want to see the deck that can consistantly win when 3 or more people gang up on it. (It might change my additude.)
When people take a Multiplayer format and try to make at a 1v1 format is really where i see the problem, imo.
Multiplayer formats are inherently balanced. Anyone who plays a better and//or more annoying deck will be taken out more quickly because of that.
Netdecking isn't much of an issue in EDH because people generally take it casually and it's difficult to netdeck 99 card lists.
It's pretty impossible to change what other people do, so there's no clear way to "protect" EDH if it was in danger.
If you do want to try to break it (which I find interesting), make up a deck for the mtgsalvation EDH tourney that runs every few months.
Cheers,
Dan
When it comes down to it a lot of similarities between decks would exist anyway simply because there's so many cards that are known to be really good.
Unfortunately, my playgroup doesn't like getting their spells countered or controlled by someone else so if your playing blue with any sort of control you will be the first one killed. Our group usually has 5+ people playing and if your the only Blue deck be prepared to be killed first.
I only learned one thing in kindergarten: The bigger you were, the less you had to share!
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There is nothing wrong with this section because if people are serious about making their deck more serious and powerful, they will come here. Otherwise, there's no point in ever coming to these boards because all you really need is Gatherer to make your deck.
Anthony Lowry, Article Writer for Manashift.
Your #1 source for New York City Magic!
Twitter: @Aufam
Quoted for truth. I love that feeling when I set my deck down, put my general in the corner and have people do a double-take and ask what the heck Patron of the Moon does. After that, they sort of sit back shuffling their deck with a face that, to me, seems to say, "Weird, but...OK."
While I credit Funkydragon's thread for Savra, Queen of the Golgari as a huge influence on how my own deck was designed, I can never play anyone else's deck. It just feels odd, and I like to have my own personal touch to it (Favorite cards, certain types of synergies I prefer, etc.)
Example: Playing non-EDH casual with some friends. Two of us have a :symw::symu: deck with a large amount of Azorius from Ravnica. One day we did a random deck game, were we put them all into the middle and rolled for them. We ended up with each other's deck. Let's just say, it was awkward. Despite having about 85% of the same cards, those last 5-10 cards made a huge difference on how it was played. I prefer more of a laid-back, diplomatic-style, while he essentially goes all-out. It was hard to adapt.
Who is anyone to say what the spirit of EDH is? If I want to play those staple cards, then I will. If I want to discuss the power of a card, then I will, and no one can tell me that it's not "the spirit of EDH"
Anthony Lowry, Article Writer for Manashift.
Your #1 source for New York City Magic!
Twitter: @Aufam
I will say however, its sometimes interesting to play someone else's deck. One of my friends has a mayael deck which does pretty nicely in multiplayer, and is decent in 1 v 1 but not tier 1.
Anyways, it was shocking to see how different it plays when he lends it to someone else and they play it. Vince (deck owner) normally plays mayael the turn before he has the mana to use her ability and just ramps as it comes along, but not excessively, draws lands every turn if he can, and simply plays creatures starting when he can. When Jay got his hands on it, he did nothing but ramp until all lands were out of the deck (which isn't as hard as it sounds with oracle mul daya, keeper of progenitus, mirari's wake, recross the path, bloodbraid elf , STE, and other relevant little dudes. For the record, Recross the paths wins about 80% of the clashes because he finds someone with a land on top and just keeps plugging away. And when its lost, ulamog or artisan or emrakul shuffles it back in.
Anycase, deck went from being big creatures starting early, to massive ramp until all lands are out of the deck, then play all accumulated creatures, pay 20 for all those eldrazi spells you own from outside the game (including a chameleon colossus which got pumped to somewhere well into the thousands, swung and killed someone completely, and then was sacrificed to momentus fall to draw him over a thousand cards.... and so lost the game after basically winning the game.
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