Trying out Sasaya, who has an amazing amount of accel as a General, looking for some suggestions to make it better. Very vulnerable to counterspells and enchant destruction, which is making me nervy, but I don't know what I can take out to make it run as well as it ought. Any help is much appreciated.
How much of an issue is budget? The first thing i'd do is revamp your lands section, and add a few more spells. You can cut down on lands if you add more spells that put lands into your hand, and this gives you a little higher threat density.
I'd make as many basics snow-basics as possible, and then run the following kind of engine:
This gives you a ton of ways to get more lands into your hands, and some ways to tutor up the engine pieces. They give you a way to filter through the deck and find your non-land spells, and fill up your hand for Sasaya.
Journey of discovery is especially important, as it can essentially be a Dark Ritual style effect when you cast Sasaya. There are lots of these kinds of spells, you should be able to find a few more. This combos especially well with any kind of recursion, so you can cast Journey multiple times in one turn, which pretty much lets you start going broken and doing ridiculous things. Some recursion spells to think about:
Lastly, since you've already got a few ways to tutor up the key nonbasics, Eye of Ugin becomes AWESOME, as it tutors up eldrazi for you to cast, and then finds them again and again if they get countered/dealt with.
Ya know, I tried playing with cards that basically attempted to filter out lands to my hand, and it didn't work out so well, cards like Civic Wayfinder and the like, it just didn't move as fast, and this deck starts off with near the number of lands for me to activate ol' Sasaya so I can play any large threats on turn 4, including a few lockdown options. However, I think you're offering enough that'll make it better than what I had, and I'm slavering over the Cultivator. However, I am interested in keeping it mostly land to make for quick Sasaya plays. Also, I'm not looking to flat-out break the bank over this deck, so a seriously expensive land budget is right out :P. However, from what the prices on the autocard function are telling me, that won't be a serious problem, so i suppose it's not so terrible to try. ^^ Thanks for all the advice, it's been helpful, now I'm going to go test this out.
Actually, it's not too bad. There's a few money cards that are taking up the budget, and I think I will find replacements for them, but most of these cost a dollar or so, and about half those that don't I have a copy of. Also cag08055, thanks for all your suggestions, they've worked beautifully. I still can't quite guarantee a hand of land by turn 3, but I can guarantee that one counterspell won't screw up my entire day.
Also, almost anything that's 1-for-1 on land counts can be ignored (exceptions being Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying, because they find Reliquary Tower, which is needed to keep threats in hand and also get Sasaya active) along with all the often-played cards that accelerate lands into play. On this note, Civic Wayfinder is useless (You're playing 3 mana for no real card advantage). The closest you could justify for this would be Kodama's Reach (keeps a land in hand, while also getting a land in play). Life from the Loam (dredge often), Mulch, Journeyer's Kite, Seek the Horizon, anything that just draws cards (Mind's Eye, Harmonize, Scroll of Origins). Mirari, to double these effects.
I do like to have a backup plan of being able to work without an active Sasaya. For this, I play Vernal Bloom (Acquire-proof) and Oracle of Mul Daya, as well as multiple ways to get Rofellos. My primary win condition is Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. My favore it play is to get Sasaya active, and use Nostalgic Dreams to swap my hand of lands for a graveyard of juice (with Mirari, you actually get back the cards you discarded as well). I play 56 lands. (Of course, you can play more than that, but 75 is overkill.)
Yeah, I wasn't really going for anything apart from activate Sasaya turn 3, play whatever huge beats I had in my hand turn 4. Very vulnerable to counterspells, so I took a lot of cag08055's advice and made a significantly changed deck.
It works... not quite as fast, but reliably so, and is not quite so wary of counterspells, having multiple spells to play. I'm definitely liking it better than the land-heavy deck.
I see you have made a great deal of suggestions, therestless. If I could impose, can I ask you to take this current list, do a -This, +That for specific quid pro quo suggestions? Also I really do want to keep this within budget range, so a Rofellos or a Life from the Loam is really out of my "desire to purchase" range. Again, thanks to all of you for your help, this deck is really, really shaping up to be quite fun and useful.
I'd add Miren, the Moaning Well. You can use it in conjunction with Eldrazi to gain a ton of life and to cast them every turn. Chaining Emrakul seems preeeeeetty okay. Concordant Crossroads makes your threats more...well, threatening, since you can kill out of nowhere.
I'd cut most of the stuff that's "just" a fairly vanilla fatty, as you can do much better with absurd amounts of mana.
Khalonian Behemoth
Sekki
Liege of the Hollows
Plated Slagwurm
Endless Swarm
Primal Rage
- Combos with Kamahl pretty well? Repeatable Stone Rain for 2G seems okay. Staff of Domination
Enshrined Memories actually seems pretty cool now that I'm looking at it. One you've got 10 forests, you can just draw all the creatures n your deck and then stack the rest of it? Seems okay.
if you go with the token generating theme, Regal Force becomes pretty awesome.
I wouldn't worry about Miren, though it's certainly not bad. I just play Nourishing Shoal. For the haste count, that's one reason why I use Kamahl, Fist of Krosa so frequently (also doubles as a deterrent against sweepers). Really though, if you want your dudes to have haste, don't also give that benefit to your opponents. Akroma's Memorial. Nemata, Grove Guardian, Gelatinous Genesis, Masticore, and Staff of Domination are all fairly solid.
For the breakdown:
Too simple, not threatening enough:
1 Kalonian Behemoth - Wishes it was Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
1 Plated Slagwurm - Wishes it was Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
1 Protean Hydra - No trample or secondary use
1 Panglacial Wurm - Nifty trick, but probably unnecessary
1 Sekki, Season's Guide - Likely won't die to damage that often
1 Crush of Wurms - Call of the Herd++ but not really what you're looking for
Mediocre effect, probably not worth the card slot:
1 Primal Rage - See Akroma's Memorial
1 Deserted Temple - Only effective use would be with Scrying Sheets, unnecessary, wants to be Petrified Field, Reliquary Tower, or Forest
1 Into the North - Is for exactly Scrying Sheets, not that impressive
Good CA:
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Primal Command
1 Restock
1 Journey of Discovery
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Harmonize
1 Seek the Horizon
1 Gaea's Bounty - Probably the weakest card here, but it works
1 Scrying Sheets - Worth the switch
1 Reap and Sow
Spam spam spam!
1 Verdeloth the Ancient - Awesome
1 Wolfbriar Elemental - Verdeloth 2.0
1 Ant Queen - More costly, but continously sustainable Verdeloth
1 Liege of the Hollows - Verdeloth meets Wrath protection, but I don't like how conditional this guy is (i.e. you have no control over when it triggers and you're opponents can get some benefit from it, possibly more than you in the event of a mana combo)
1 Wurmcalling - I used to play this, it certainly still works
1 Endless Swarm - I don't like how this locks you out of the game and how often it can be mitigated or ignored
Other junk:
1 Nantuko Cultivator - Call it another Nostalgic Dreams, I've no complaints
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre - Removal is good
1 Terastodon - Removal is good
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - Winning is good
1 Omnath, Locus of Mana - Beats and utility
1 Expedition Map - Wants to find Eye or Reliquary Tower
1 Sylvan Scrying - Wants to find Eye or Reliquary Tower
1 Helix Pinnacle - Used to play it, got cut for more immediate threats
1 Ancient Stirrings - 1-for-1, but it also find Eldrazi
1 Woodland Guidance - 1-for-1, but can be ridiculous if you win the clash (volatile though, as you do play so many lands)
1 Regrowth - 1-for-1, but inexpensive
1 Terramorphic Expanse - Not useful without more library manipulation
1 Evolving Wilds - Not useful without more library manipulation
Gaohoot: Good at overfilling hand on opponents turn.
Kill: Squall Line + Nourishing Shoal - Budget cards, instant speed, both have uses by themselves Kamahl, Fist of Krosa - Have lots of mana, kill lots of players, wipe out peoples mana base if they sweep
why would you play Nourishing Shoal? The point of Miren isn't to gain life, but rather to recycle the Eldrazi over and over. It's an engine component that helps you rebuild card advantage with Eye of Ugin.
Seems pretty good to me when you can easily generate absurd amounts of mana. If you've got 7 lands + Miren, you could tutor up Emrakul, cast him, sac to miren, tutor him up, and cast him again. Seems okay to me?
True, but that all seems rather win-more. I don't think Miren is a bad inclusion, but I'd rate dodging RFG effects as it's greatest advantage.
Nourishing Shoal at worst is an emergency button to mess up someone's math (e.g. being tapped out, and throwing a Krosan Tusker at it to stay alive), and is regularly enough to put you ahead of everyone at the table to setup for a game-ending Squall Line.
I don't know. Using a spell slot, a singleton slot at that, for a card that gains life and nothing else seems pretty suboptimal in a format where you just die to general damage anyway. The difference is, there are game states where Miren actively helps you start winning the game by dodging RFG effects, recycling eldrazi AND gaining life while doing it, all while just taking up a land slot rather than a spell slot. Shoal just gains you some life sometimes, and the rest of the time it'll be dead. All in all, shoal just seems pretty terrible to me unless you're comboing it with Lich.
I do make regular use of Planar Portal for those 2 pieces (not to mention dredging Loam with a Regrowth effect in hand). I really don't see why everyone always mentions dying to general damage... Of the decks at my LGS the only ones that consistently do that are Kresh, Azami (lol), and Rafiq, as nobody plays Uril. Also, that's what Constant Mists is for (amazing card!). Everyone that can plays a lot of general hate (LOTS of Hinder and Hallowed Burial, some Spin Into Myth, Bant Charm, and Oblation, a couple Warp World). Incidentally, another reason to run Time of Need. YMMV.
Again, thanks for all of your suggestions. I've taken more than a few of them to heart, and have changed up my decklist once again. Special mention, how in the nine hells did I forget Gelatinous Genesis? I mean, I own the card, and I actually had that one in my very first iteration of this deck >.<
1 Kalonian Behemoth
1 Wolfbriar Elemental
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Petrified Wood-kin
1 Terastodon
1 Protean Hydra
1 Ant Queen
1 Liege of the Hollows
1 Plated Slagwurm
1 Panglacial Wurm
1 Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Omnath, Locus of Mana
1 Sekki, Season's Guide
1 Verdeloth the Ancient
1 Abundance
1 Endless Swarm
1 Biorhythm
1 Crush of Wurms
1 Wurmcalling
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
73 Forest
Again, any help provided would be much appreciated. Thanks much
Edit: Much improved decklist further down.
I'd make as many basics snow-basics as possible, and then run the following kind of engine:
This gives you a ton of ways to get more lands into your hands, and some ways to tutor up the engine pieces. They give you a way to filter through the deck and find your non-land spells, and fill up your hand for Sasaya.
Then ,you have ways to add basics to your hand:
- Seek the Horizon
- Gaea's bounty
- Journey of Discovery
*etc.
Journey of discovery is especially important, as it can essentially be a Dark Ritual style effect when you cast Sasaya. There are lots of these kinds of spells, you should be able to find a few more. This combos especially well with any kind of recursion, so you can cast Journey multiple times in one turn, which pretty much lets you start going broken and doing ridiculous things. Some recursion spells to think about:
- Woodland Guidance
- Regrowth
- Restock
- Nostalgic Dreams
* Especially with Life from the LoamAnd you need to draw cards to filter towards your creature spells. They're key for this kind of deck, so you can find your bombtastic spells.
- Harmonize
- Nantuko Cultivator
* this is broken enough that you want to tutor it up on a regular basis. it's a draw 7 plus a huge guy when you just cast sasaya.Lastly, since you've already got a few ways to tutor up the key nonbasics, Eye of Ugin becomes AWESOME, as it tutors up eldrazi for you to cast, and then finds them again and again if they get countered/dealt with.
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Clan RepresentativeAlso, almost anything that's 1-for-1 on land counts can be ignored (exceptions being Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying, because they find Reliquary Tower, which is needed to keep threats in hand and also get Sasaya active) along with all the often-played cards that accelerate lands into play. On this note, Civic Wayfinder is useless (You're playing 3 mana for no real card advantage). The closest you could justify for this would be Kodama's Reach (keeps a land in hand, while also getting a land in play). Life from the Loam (dredge often), Mulch, Journeyer's Kite, Seek the Horizon, anything that just draws cards (Mind's Eye, Harmonize, Scroll of Origins). Mirari, to double these effects.
I do like to have a backup plan of being able to work without an active Sasaya. For this, I play Vernal Bloom (Acquire-proof) and Oracle of Mul Daya, as well as multiple ways to get Rofellos. My primary win condition is Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. My favore it play is to get Sasaya active, and use Nostalgic Dreams to swap my hand of lands for a graveyard of juice (with Mirari, you actually get back the cards you discarded as well). I play 56 lands. (Of course, you can play more than that, but 75 is overkill.)
1 Kalonian Behemoth
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Wolfbriar Elemental
1 Terastodon
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Protean Hydra
1 Ant Queen
1 Nantuko Cultivator
1 Liege of the Hollows
1 Panglacial Wurm
1 Plated Slagwurm
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Omnath, Locus of Mana
1 Sekki, Season's Guide
1 Verdeloth the Ancient
1 Primal Rage
1 Helix Pinnacle
1 Ancient Stirrings
1 Primal Command
1 Endless Swarm
1 Crush of Wurms
1 Restock
1 Journey of Discovery
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Harmonize
1 Seek the Horizon
1 Woodland Guiding
1 Wurmcalling
1 Gaea's Bounty
1 Into the North
1 Reap and Sow
1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Deserted Temple
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Scrying Sheets
It works... not quite as fast, but reliably so, and is not quite so wary of counterspells, having multiple spells to play. I'm definitely liking it better than the land-heavy deck.
I see you have made a great deal of suggestions, therestless. If I could impose, can I ask you to take this current list, do a -This, +That for specific quid pro quo suggestions? Also I really do want to keep this within budget range, so a Rofellos or a Life from the Loam is really out of my "desire to purchase" range. Again, thanks to all of you for your help, this deck is really, really shaping up to be quite fun and useful.
I'd cut most of the stuff that's "just" a fairly vanilla fatty, as you can do much better with absurd amounts of mana.
Khalonian Behemoth
Sekki
Liege of the Hollows
Plated Slagwurm
Endless Swarm
Primal Rage
you can add....
- Centaur Garden
- Nemata, Grove Guardian
- Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
- Gelatinous Genesis
- Masticore
- Combos with Kamahl pretty well? Repeatable Stone Rain for 2G seems okay.Staff of Domination
Enshrined Memories actually seems pretty cool now that I'm looking at it. One you've got 10 forests, you can just draw all the creatures n your deck and then stack the rest of it? Seems okay.
if you go with the token generating theme, Regal Force becomes pretty awesome.
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Clan RepresentativeFor the breakdown:
Too simple, not threatening enough:
1 Kalonian Behemoth - Wishes it was Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
1 Plated Slagwurm - Wishes it was Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
1 Protean Hydra - No trample or secondary use
1 Panglacial Wurm - Nifty trick, but probably unnecessary
1 Sekki, Season's Guide - Likely won't die to damage that often
1 Crush of Wurms - Call of the Herd++ but not really what you're looking for
Mediocre effect, probably not worth the card slot:
1 Primal Rage - See Akroma's Memorial
1 Deserted Temple - Only effective use would be with Scrying Sheets, unnecessary, wants to be Petrified Field, Reliquary Tower, or Forest
1 Into the North - Is for exactly Scrying Sheets, not that impressive
Good CA:
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Primal Command
1 Restock
1 Journey of Discovery
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Harmonize
1 Seek the Horizon
1 Gaea's Bounty - Probably the weakest card here, but it works
1 Scrying Sheets - Worth the switch
1 Reap and Sow
Spam spam spam!
1 Verdeloth the Ancient - Awesome
1 Wolfbriar Elemental - Verdeloth 2.0
1 Ant Queen - More costly, but continously sustainable Verdeloth
1 Liege of the Hollows - Verdeloth meets Wrath protection, but I don't like how conditional this guy is (i.e. you have no control over when it triggers and you're opponents can get some benefit from it, possibly more than you in the event of a mana combo)
1 Wurmcalling - I used to play this, it certainly still works
1 Endless Swarm - I don't like how this locks you out of the game and how often it can be mitigated or ignored
Other junk:
1 Nantuko Cultivator - Call it another Nostalgic Dreams, I've no complaints
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre - Removal is good
1 Terastodon - Removal is good
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - Winning is good
1 Omnath, Locus of Mana - Beats and utility
1 Expedition Map - Wants to find Eye or Reliquary Tower
1 Sylvan Scrying - Wants to find Eye or Reliquary Tower
1 Helix Pinnacle - Used to play it, got cut for more immediate threats
1 Ancient Stirrings - 1-for-1, but it also find Eldrazi
1 Woodland Guidance - 1-for-1, but can be ridiculous if you win the clash (volatile though, as you do play so many lands)
1 Regrowth - 1-for-1, but inexpensive
1 Terramorphic Expanse - Not useful without more library manipulation
1 Evolving Wilds - Not useful without more library manipulation
Chick-fil-a closing soon, may add more later.
Edit: Chick-fil-a spicy chicken sandwiches = pro++
Gaohoot: Good at overfilling hand on opponents turn.
Kill:
Squall Line + Nourishing Shoal - Budget cards, instant speed, both have uses by themselves
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa - Have lots of mana, kill lots of players, wipe out peoples mana base if they sweep
Good CA:
Mystic Melting - Good removal, gaohoot
Relic Crush - Brutal, ridiculous off Mirari
Mulch - Volatile, but you play out of your GY anyway
Kodama's Reach
Yavimaya Elder - Amazing, gaohoot
Oracle of Mul Daya - Ridiculous! If noone kills it, you don't even have to worry about Sasaya
Woodfall Primus - Another Terastodon
Mind's Eye - A classic, gaohoot
Journeyer's Kite - Never misses! Gaohoot.
Planar Portal - Finds anything, you've got the mana for it
Phyrexian Furnace/Relic of Progenitus - Important effect, low opportunity cost, gaohoot
Scroll of Origins - Awesome! Almost always online, gaohoot
Mirari - Makes anything ridiculous, and makes things harder to counter
Tower of Fortunes - Lots of cards, you've got the mana for it
Reliquary Tower - Allows you to accumulate lands without getting rid of threats
Other Junk:
Krosan Grip - Good at killing Isochron Scepter, Relic of Progenitus, Oblivion Stone, damn near anything else
Chord of Calling - Instant tutor, cost easily offset with token producers for more of a surprise
Constant Mists - Pretty much unlimited sustainability
Time of Need - Gets your general if tucked, Verdeloth, Omnath, Eldrazi, Kamahl, Multani...
Duplicant - Removal is good
Tornado Elemental - Removal is good
New Frontiers - Very powerful! The turn you online Sasaya you can tap a couple lands and add 10-20 to the mana produced by each of your other lands
Vernal Bloom - Good backup to Sasaya, less vulnerable than Gauntlet of Power
Abundance - Very powerful effect, has an especially powerful interaction with Sylvan Library if you can find one
These cards are pretty much all budget-friendly.
Seems pretty good to me when you can easily generate absurd amounts of mana. If you've got 7 lands + Miren, you could tutor up Emrakul, cast him, sac to miren, tutor him up, and cast him again. Seems okay to me?
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Clan RepresentativeNourishing Shoal at worst is an emergency button to mess up someone's math (e.g. being tapped out, and throwing a Krosan Tusker at it to stay alive), and is regularly enough to put you ahead of everyone at the table to setup for a game-ending Squall Line.
Pauper Cube
I cube, I play EDH, and I can't afford Legacy. The other formats can suck it.
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Clan Representative1 Masticore
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Wolfbriar Elemental
1 Terastodon
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Ant Queen
1 Nantuko Cultivator
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Omnath, Locus of Mana
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Nemata, Grove Guardian
1 Verdeloth the Ancient
1 Expedition Map
1 Tower of Fortunes
1 Helix Pinnacle
1 Mystic Melting
1 Mirari
1 Seek the Horizon
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 New Frontiers
1 Ancient Stirrings
1 Primal Command
1 Restock
1 Journey of Discovery
1 Regrowth
1 Woodland Guidance
1 Enshrined Memories
1 Wurmcalling
1 Gaea's Bounty
1 Reap and Sow
1 Gelatinous Genesis
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Scrying Sheets
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Eye of Ugin