Since I have been playing and contributing to clique for some time, and neither of the previous "primers" were what I would call a primer (no offense fellas) I decided to make one for the new 1v1 forum. Since I have already written an article for my local store on the deck, I figured I could just expand a little more and post it here for everyone to check out.
This decklist has been tuned quite extensively, although mostly in the vacuum of my local metagame. I have a few odd choices that I plan on justifying, as well as a couple slots I haven't seen other clique players testing. I know I enjoy discussing EDH on these forums, so hopefully we can get some good insight and discussion on this deck. Note that this list is using our local banned list (which does not ban sol ring or crucible, but does ban strip mine.)
*DISCLAIMER* - Before people jump on the bandwagon and suggest that clique is broken... take a look at the game you are playing. Clique isn't the problem, blue is! EDH isn't really designed to handle blue permission, and while generals like Venser and Teferi certainly don't provide the aggressive clock that clique does, you could interchange each of those generals freely and the deck will be mostly unchanged, and still win.
Maze of Ith: This card wins the mirror match, as well as goes a LONG way to save you on a lot of relevant matchups in the format.
Remote isle and Lonely Sandbar: Both are pretty self explanatory. 95% of the time you will be cycling them, but in the rare case where you actually need the blue, its there.
Fetch Lands: I see a lot of decklists (for a lot of generals) that do not run fetch lands. Provides deck thinning with no drawback.
Scrying Sheets: Works really well for nearly every mono colored deck.. it works really well for this deck. Over the course of a game, this will provide tons of card advantage.
Tolaria West: A lot of people have a tendency to omit or undervalue this card, but it gives you a nearly un-counterable tutor for any of your utility lands, or Pact of Negation if you really need it.
Mouth of Ronom: Gives you an out against pro/x creatures.
Creatures
Venser, Shaper Savant: He's got legs, and an incredible ability. He is an answer to "cannot be countered", and with Riptide Laboratory in play, it gives you an awesome combo.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: Alot of people look at me odd when they see Teferi, considering I only run 3 or 4 creatures, but even if he didn't have the give critters flash ability, I would still run him. He does wonders against a mirror/counter heavy matchup, and it virtually soft locks the game against nearly every way to answer clique. Most of the time, your opponents only chance to kill clique is to play something EoT, and then more spells during their main.. Teferi stops that.
Sower of Temptation: Some people don't like this guy, and that is understandable, he is a big target. I normally run him, but that is a metagame choice.. the deck will easily run fine without him. I normally don't regret casting it, and it usually pees in your opponents koolaid when you steal their combo piece or general.
Spells
Spin into Myth: This card just rocks. Not only does it combo with Tunnel Vision, its just great at clearing out a general or annoying guy.
Nevinyrral's Disk: I usually don't see people running this either, but I have had good success with it. Most games, I don't even pop it, but its great insurance just sitting on the table. It makes your already cautious opponent even more cautious.
Aether Spellbomb: Great early tempo, and it lets you play less aggressively. Having a way to bounce a guy and clique it is pretty good.
Dominate: Most people don't run this either, but it has worked out well for me. its a tutorable target and castable at EoT, and casting it is usually enough to pee in their koolaid.
Control Magic: Usually not a dead draw, and alot of the time you get to steal something big or good.
Vedalken Shackles: Just another efficient method to steal guys, and something your opponent will waste a pithing needle on a lot of the time
Crucible of Worlds: Self explanatory. Fortunately, if you are using a list that bans this card, the deck still works fine without it.
Compulsion: Another card that I don't see many people run. Its secondary effect is decent on its own, but giving you the ability to cycle all the lands you draw is pretty awesome.
Gush: Self explanatory. Not even horrible if you hard cast it, awesome late game draw or to randomly avoid LD.
Inspiration: Instant speed draw 2.. it could cost less, but it works great with clique.
Mystical Tutor: A card I see a lot of people not playing.. and I cant figure out why. It gives you access to so many cards nearly on demand, as well as a win condition, if you play it.
Stroke of Genius: While its rather inefficient, I have had a pretty good experience with it. 1 card for 3U isn't that great, even at instant speed.. but 2 for 4U is passable.. it goes up from there.
Opportunity: Very expensive, but instant speed draw 4.. hard to find.
Ancestral Vision: Great card to suspend turn 1, but even cast late game, it will normally get you some good cards.
Careful Consideration: Not really that great as far as raw card advantage goes, but it digs 4 deep at instant speed... or gives you something to use mana drain mana on
Evacuation: Gives you an out to shroud guys, or wraths out tokens.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: I haven't seen a lot of testing on this guy either (at least, on the forums.) I have been playing it for awhile now, and have been very satisfied with the results. It gives you a great setup for Tunnel Vision, it gives you a brainstorm every turn, lets you bounce a guy.. or it just wins the game. This guy was my win condition a majority of the time until I started running Tunnel vision.
Isochron Scepter: Some people like it, some people don't.. this is probably the card I have the most mixed feelings for. It requires a big initial investment, two cards and two mana on your turn, but the benefits can be incredible.
Tunnel Vision: Probably the most controversial card I see in any clique discussion. I for one don't really understand the down side... if you cast it, you win. Granted, it costs a lot, and requires some setup, but I think its well worth the investment.
Counter Spells
Dream Fracture: Solid 3cc counterspell. While it does give your opponent a card, it gives you a card too, and chances are that your card is an answer.
Mana Drain: Self explanatory. Counterspell that gives you fuel to cast spells during your turn.
Hinder: Great 3cc counterspell that tucks their big threat, and sets up for Tunnel Vision.
Force of Will: Self explanatory. Usually I am not a big fan of cards that make you discard/remove other cards (ala commandeer), but its just that good.
Exclude: Aggressively costed counterspell for guys that replaces itself.
Forbid: Cancel with the ability to discard a couple islands and buy it back.
Faerie Trickery: Another dissipate, removes big threats and keeps them removed.
Essence Scatter: Another Remove Soul, very aggressively costed counterspell.
Condescend: Usually, I think X counterspells are usually not that great, but this is one of the few worth running. Gives you a turn 2 counter on the draw, plus it scrys.
Complicate: An inefficient Mana Leak with the ability to cycle. You will be surprised at how often you will catch a spell while cycling it.
Thwart: Not really aggressively costed, but its alternate casting cost makes it a solid fit.
Spell Burst: Not that great early game, but an awesome tutor target late game. With enough mana, it just makes people scoop.
Memory Lapse: A decent counterspell for most decks, an incredible one for clique. It lets you set up a turn to clique their big threat.
Sage's Dousing: Not really that great when casting it without a wizard in play.. amazing when you do.
Remand: While it doesn't remove a threat entirely, it replaces itself, and lets you see what is coming.
Power Sink: Probably one of the most underrated X counters available. Most of the time, it Time Stops an opponent.
Pact of Negation: Another counterspell that lets you set up the turn, and while its drawback sucks (3UU on your turn), its better than losing the game.
Miscalculation: Pretty good early game, you will usually be able to catch an opponent with it. It also cycles when you have 5 counterspells in hand
Mindbreak Trap: Awesome in the mirror/counter matchup, its also an out against uncounterable or Boseiju.
Desertion: This used to be Overwhelming Intellect, but I replaced it with this recently, and have not been disappointed. As a counterspell, it costs way too much.. but countering their Uril and then beating them with it should put a smile on your face.
The Deck
Clique is a very powerful general, but it also has a high level of complexity. Anyone can cast (random counterspell) at (random threat) and occasionally win, but that won't make them a good pilot. Clique is played differently than traditional mono blue decks, in which you rarely play a threat, play very conservatively, and eventually whittle the opponent down. Clique plays a lot more like an aggro deck, and this is where a lot of the complexity comes in.
Most players feel they have to counter every threat they see, regardless of its impact on the game. In reality, most "threats" aren't really threats at all, who cares if they resolve a little guy or a fellwar stone. You want to get clique out, safely, as soon as possible; and then protect it for 7 turns. Now, this deck can be played like a traditional mono blue deck, and with a more experienced player, this works fine. Just realize that the longer the game goes, the more time you give your opponent to do stuff, and you don't want that.
Card advantage plays a big role in this deck as well. You already have the perceived advantage as soon as you flip your general over, and having a full hand of cards just reinforces that perception, especially against less experienced players. Even with this illusion aside, the name of the game is: have more answers than your opponent has threats, so you want cards.
The Matchups
This deck (blame blue, not clique ;)) has the advantage against most of the prevalent decks in the format, and while I would love to give detailed analysis of each of the matchups and how they play out... there isn't really a need. This is usually how your game will turn out:
Each player plays some lands, they play something and you counter it, you play clique, you protect clique for seven turns.
Sometimes things go wrong, you won't have the resources available to counter every kill spell or random nuisance. In this case, you still have the option of playing clique out and beating them some more, or you can slow roll into a tunnel vision, which usually just wins.
How to beat it
While the deck is incredibly resilient, it is definitely not unbeatable. I have played many games against random decks that have gotten pretty close. Decks that run manlands, or lands that make guys (ala Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree, or Urza's Factory) can give you problems. In addition to that, decks that have a very high threat density can get rough.. I played a match against Anowon the other day that I nearly lost, just because he ran very aggressive discard, tons of kill spells, and just big guys.
Aggressive discard gives this deck problems, just because of the nature of discard. Even if you counter it, the discard player still wins by making you discard a counterspell.
Cards I don't run
There are quite a few cards that I have tested and removed for various reasons.
Logic Knot: While this card is ok with alot of cards in your graveyard, id rather have another X spell, and I feel there is only room for a couple X spells at best.
Declaration of Naught: I used to run it when Arcum was around, I don't anymore. Its really good if you know your meta has a lot of decks that rely on their general (such as Arcum or Isamaru equipment), but kind of weak otherwise.
Foil: it was between this and Thwart, and Thwart just tested out better.
Brainstorm: I get a lot of odd looks when people see that I don't play it, but it is totally underwhelming in this deck. It nets you 0 card advantage, and without a lot of shuffle effects, just doesn't stand up.
Ponder: Much better than Brainstorm due to the shuffle effect, I just couldn't find room for it. I feel that all of the 1cc cards in this list are just better.
Sunder: I tested it, a lot, because I wanted to like it. Unfortunately, it usually opens you up more than it helps you.
Commandeer: Looks like it should be good right? you totally get to snag a spell for free!... Unfortunately, that's not the case. You are losing three cards to snag an often irrelevant spell.
Echoing Truth: I ran this originally, but replaced it with Repulse. It just didn't do enough for me to justify keeping it in.
Sensei's Divining Top: Another topic of heated debate. Its not a horrible card, on the contrary, its really good; however I just couldn't find room for it. *If Sol Ring wasn't playable in my area, I would replace it with Top*
Annul/Disrupt/Force Spike (and similar spells): All of these are way too conditional. Annul is great if you know your opponent is going to cast a relevant artifact or enchantment that will win them the game. A similar situation for the others, their scope is just too narrow to be usable.
Stifle: Another spot of contention I see frequently, and the argument I hear is "but hey, there will always be something to stifle!". While this argument is true, it just doesn't hold up. For stifle to be good, you will have to have a relevant threat to cast it on... stifling a fetch land or something silly like that is hardly game ending, and unless I can guarantee I will be stifling something that matters, I can't devote a spot.
I guess this concludes my rather lengthy walk through 1v1 Clique. Please feel free to ask questions or discuss (constructively) any choices.
This is a perfectly solid list. There are a few minor tweaks I would make, but they probably come down to personal preference as much as anything else. You've approached this list with the right philosophy, so it's going to work fine.
Quote from Wangthunder »
*DISCLAIMER* - Before people jump on the bandwagon and suggest that clique is broken... take a look at the game you are playing. Clique isn't the problem, blue is! EDH isn't really designed to handle blue permission, and while generals like Venser and Teferi certainly don't provide the aggressive clock that clique does, you could interchange each of those generals freely and the deck will be mostly unchanged, and still win.
(blame blue, not clique ;))
This is both false and misleading. It's true that many EDH decks, especially on the casual/multiplayer side of the spectrum, do poorly against mono-blue in 1v1. That's because a perspective exists that EDH is supposed to be slow and filled with huge splashy spells. That kind of deck can't compete with mono-blue.
However, competitive decks are not in the same boat. Most of them have plenty of game against mono-blue. My favorite deck at the moment is a competitive Wort, Boggart Auntie goblin tribal list--I've played it extensively on MWS in the last month. I've played at least 20 different mono-blue decks, mostly best of 3. I've played loads of Azami, loads of Teferi, loads of Venser, a few Kami of the Crescent Moon, and a smattering of Kira/Thada Adel/other. (Also mostly mono-blue decks, like Niv-Mizzet and Jhoira).
In all these matches, I have lost not a single game, against any of these decks. Not one. I don't play any specific hate-cards against blue decks, but classic mono-blue decks are just unable to deal with the way that deck plays.
My deck isn't the only one--Hephlathio's Wort the Raidmother does very well against blue, as does Evergreen's Iname, Death Aspect, and a whole host of others. I play all kinds of strange decks on MWS (testing for my compendium), and most of my decks beat generic blue decks the majority of the time. Mono-blue is NOT a problem when the other decks are also made to win.
With Clique, all that goes out the window. I played Clique myself for quite a while; I know how broken it is. I played a couple of games against it with my undefeated-against-blue Wort list, just to be sure, and got smashed, as I suspected.
You can't claim that it is blue that is overpowered, and not Clique. It's just false. If you take your deck and swap in any other general (with minor changes, if you like), I would be surprised if it could win ANY games against competitive decks. Clique pulls so much weight in this deck, and is absolutely the factor that makes this deck virtually unbeatable.
I find your "How to beat it" section hilarious. The best examples you can cite for decks that can beat this one are decks that "almost beat you" or "got pretty close." (And I can't understand how manlands ever even came close to beating Clique's 7-turn clock.) Discard is one of the only things that's at all effective, but even that usually can't get the job done, considering that you have many, many more counterspells than even the most dedicated black deck has discard.
In the end, I just can't respect a Clique deck at all. It's horribly overpowered, and has a exceedingly high win-loss ratio against even decks designed to beat it. If you're looking to win the most games possible, there is absolutely no reason to play anything else, so Clique is a broken general. Other blue generals can't boast anywhere near the same percentages, so don't blame blue to excuse the ridiculousness of your general.
In the last tournament I played that I won, I used Vendilion Clique. I only dropped a single game the entire tournament. Yes, including t8 matches, which I swept 2-0 in all of them.
There were three different games that I was in big trouble -- one against therestless's Braids, one against Hephlathio's Wort, and another against atomic_dragon's Teferi.
In both the Braids and Wort games, there was simply no way I was able to take control of the game like a blue deck traditonally does. Bloodghast + Nether Traitor was giving me major problems due to Bloodghast's reanimation and Nether Traitor having a cheap casting cost to slip past most countermagic. On another token, Hephlathio had a higher curve to his deck overall, but he had incredible threat density. Virtually very single one of his cards was a must-counter threat.
Vendilion Clique bailed me out in both of those games, by racing therestless's army and doing the same thing to Hephlathio as he exhausted my counters and started playing some serious token generators like Beacon of Creation.
In the game against Teferi, Clique got into play first on turn 3 (with Force backup since I am the biggest Hinder magnet in the world), yanked his only draw spell in hand which was Fact or Fiction, and he was put on an immediate clock that a normal MUC deck has problems really actually solving. By the time he could get Teferi out with counter backup, it was far too late.
The thing with Clique is that it gives MUC a new dimension that it has been lacking for over 12 years -- a clock that ends a game quickly... at least for a blue deck. Couple this with the fact that you have a devastating hand wrecking ability that can disable generals, eliminate ANY non land threat, *and* thumb its nose at graveyard recursion.
The worst part was that I was playing with a Clique deck that I built in 5 minutes. I am dead serious. I don't want even to imagine going into an EDH tournament with a fully optimized Clique deck.
However, competitive decks are not in the same boat. Most of them have plenty of game against mono-blue. My favorite deck at the moment is a competitive Wort, Boggart Auntie goblin tribal list--I've played it extensively on MWS in the last month. I've played at least 20 different mono-blue decks, mostly best of 3. I've played loads of Azami, loads of Teferi, loads of Venser, a few Kami of the Crescent Moon, and a smattering of Kira/Thada Adel/other. (Also mostly mono-blue decks, like Niv-Mizzet and Jhoira).
In all these matches, I have lost not a single game, against any of these decks. Not one. I don't play any specific hate-cards against blue decks, but classic mono-blue decks are just unable to deal with the way that deck plays.
My deck isn't the only one--Hephlathio's Wort the Raidmother does very well against blue, as does Evergreen's Iname, Death Aspect, and a whole host of others. I play all kinds of strange decks on MWS (testing for my compendium), and most of my decks beat generic blue decks the majority of the time. Mono-blue is NOT a problem when the other decks are also made to win.
With Clique, all that goes out the window. I played Clique myself for quite a while; I know how broken it is. I played a couple of games against it with my undefeated-against-blue Wort list, just to be sure, and got smashed, as I suspected.
I think you are not considering the average playskill of a random mws player. I have played about 60 games on mws, and haven't lost yet either... do I think its the deck? some, a lot of it is the piloting too.
I also never said once that the deck is unbeatable, quite the opposite. Part of the reason I started this was to stimulate productive discussion on how to beat it. I have no problems believing that you have stomped every match on mws, and not to knock your skill, because im sure you are a great player.. but sometimes mws is like stealing candy from a baby.
You can't claim that it is blue that is overpowered, and not Clique. It's just false. If you take your deck and swap in any other general (with minor changes, if you like), I would be surprised if it could win ANY games against competitive decks. Clique pulls so much weight in this deck, and is absolutely the factor that makes this deck virtually unbeatable.
To prove this exact point, I swapped clique for venser at our last tournament, and ended up splitting first. Sure, I had some losses, but the deck piloted very similar. Now, like I said.. sure clique is amazing, and alot better than the other guys, but a skilled mono blue player behind a mono blue deck will pee in a lot of koolaid.
I find your "How to beat it" section hilarious. The best examples you can cite for decks that can beat this one are decks that "almost beat you" or "got pretty close." (And I can't understand how manlands ever even came close to beating Clique's 7-turn clock.) Discard is one of the only things that's at all effective, but even that usually can't get the job done, considering that you have many, many more counterspells than even the most dedicated black deck has discard.
Dont you think that is kind of arrogant, when just a few paragraphs ago you were talking about how you have never been beat on mws with wort?
Manlands pose a huge threat when they are denying clique with a maze of ith or some random flying guy that got through. This was actually a problem when I was playing a few weeks ago against Uril; he had a maze active, vitu-ghazi, and got a Wall of Reverence through.
I would probably disagree a little bit about discard, I would say it has a great chance at evening up against clique. Just with the nature of discard, they are making you get rid of cards.. and that's if you counter it. In addition to that, they have tons of high level threats that you have to worry about, so eventually you have to make a choice.
In the end, I just can't respect a Clique deck at all. It's horribly overpowered, and has a exceedingly high win-loss ratio against even decks designed to beat it. If you're looking to win the most games possible, there is absolutely no reason to play anything else, so Clique is a broken general. Other blue generals can't boast anywhere near the same percentages, so don't blame blue to excuse the ridiculousness of your general.
I prefer casual games more than most, so I wouldn't mind if edh went back to gold dragons. However, if I am playing in a competitive environment, I am going to play a competitive deck.
As far as the general goes, I never said it wasn't better than the other blue generals, my point was even with clique gone, blue will still pose a big problem to the format.
Trinket Mage has been a MVP in many of my games, esp if you have Riptide Laboratory out.
d.g
I don't think trinket mage is bad, I just didn't like it when I tested with it. We are talking about fully converting to the french list, and when that happens, I will most likely include top, I just don't know if I can find room for trinket mage. Every time I have tested with it, it just seems like win more, and it never really did much for the game state.. sure, it can fetch a spellbomb or top or something, but it rarely comes up where I absolutely need them.
This is a perfectly solid list. There are a few minor tweaks I would make, but they probably come down to personal preference as much as anything else. You've approached this list with the right philosophy, so it's going to work fine.
What were you thinking? I don't mind hearing constructive criticism, and who knows, maybe there is a gem I didn't think of.
I think you are not considering the average playskill of a random mws player. I have played about 60 games on mws, and haven't lost yet either... do I think its the deck? some, a lot of it is the piloting too.
I also never said once that the deck is unbeatable, quite the opposite. Part of the reason I started this was to stimulate productive discussion on how to beat it. I have no problems believing that you have stomped every match on mws, and not to knock your skill, because im sure you are a great player.. but sometimes mws is like stealing candy from a baby.
Where did I say that I was testing Clique against random MWS players? I would feel like far too much of a douche. The vast majority of my Clique testing was done within my own playgroup, against players who I know are highly skilled and have good decks. Some of it was basically just goldfishing games with a partner to see if any of the other decks even stood a chance against Clique's assault (the vast majority of the time, the answer is no).
It's certainly true that much depends on the skill of the pilot, but regardless, you can't consider 60-0 against a diverse field to be acceptable and normal. (I was over 100-0 before I stopped...) You may well be an awesome player, but variance exists. The best players in the world can't go 60-0 against the field with any deck, in any format. This one is definitely the deck, not just playskill. (Variance exists for Clique as well, but the deck is so tremendously overpowered that even when the deck draws absolutely terribly, it can still win. I drew 14 (or was it 16?) lands in a row once, and still won that game.)
Quote from Wangthunder »
To prove this exact point, I swapped clique for venser at our last tournament, and ended up splitting first. Sure, I had some losses, but the deck piloted very similar.
All this tells me is that your tournament scene isn't especially strong (which I strongly suspected anyway, as apparently no one there can beat blue decks). I know from lots and lots of testing that Venser just isn't that good, and should not be winning tournaments (especially not with your list, which is super-light on win-conditions when running Venser as the general).
Quote from Wangthunder »
Now, like I said.. sure clique is amazing, and alot better than the other guys, but a skilled mono blue player behind a mono blue deck will pee in a lot of koolaid.
Let's deconstruct this statement. You're admitting that Clique is "alot better" than other blue generals, but you think this is okay because a skilled mono blue player will win most games anyway. This does not follow. Mono-blue is a very strong archetype in 1v1 EDH. I think everyone can agree on that. It will definitely beat bad decks. However, mono-blue is nowhere near unbeatable. Nowhere near. Good decks can beat it--plenty of competitive decks have very favorable matchups against it, because they can maintain pressure long enough for the blue deck to run out of cards.
So, mono-blue is strong, but fine overall, assuming an equally competitive metagame. Clique is much better than other mono-blue decks--to such an extent that it definitively makes the Clique deck NOT fine. Decks that can consistently beat other mono-blue decks by grinding them down can almost never do the same against Clique. It's a whole different type of deck than other mono-blue generals, and it cannot be fairly compared with them.
Put it another way: mono-blue is not a problem for any of my decks. Clique is an insurmountable problem for ALL of my decks. There is clearly a major difference between Clique and all the other blue generals.
Quote from Wangthunder »
Dont you think that is kind of arrogant, when just a few paragraphs ago you were talking about how you have never been beat on mws with wort?
Manlands pose a huge threat when they are denying clique with a maze of ith or some random flying guy that got through. This was actually a problem when I was playing a few weeks ago against Uril; he had a maze active, vitu-ghazi, and got a Wall of Reverence through.
How is that arrogant? I don't get what you're implying. My Wort deck isn't undefeated, but it is undefeated against mono-blue decks. That's a fact. When a deck is undefeated across many games, it means something. In my case, it means that my Wort deck has a very good matchup against non-Clique blue decks. This makes perfect sense--it packs plenty of removal to keep the general off the board, a modicum of discard, and attacks very quickly from two different angles. It also plays things like Goblin Lackey and Aether Vial, cards that blue decks have always had great difficulty beating. Without significant amounts of real removal (which doesn't exist in blue) or a comparably fast clock (which doesn't exist outside of Clique), there should be no way that a blue deck can race me or control all my threats indefinitely...and that has been the case, at least so far. However, when your (and my) Clique deck can go undefeated across the whole field, that means something else--that it has broken the metagame wide open, and is operating on a different level than all of the other decks.
Manlands should not be a problem. Looking at your list, it's obvious why they might be, but they shouldn't be. You're missing Strip Mine (!), Tectonic Edge, and Expedition Map, all of which should be in this deck, because you need to be able to quickly answer Maze of Ith or Kor Haven. I also ran Tsabo's Web, which neatly answers Maze of Ith AND manlands, but that one is less typical. You could and should be running at least twice as many answers to Maze of Ith though. This way, Clique doesn't get shut down, and manlands have no hope of racing you. Random flying guys that get through (though honestly, guys of this size should never get through...) can be answered with bounce, which you also should be running a bit more of.
Quote from Wangthunder »
As far as the general goes, I never said it wasn't better than the other blue generals, my point was even with clique gone, blue will still pose a big problem to the format.
And...I say you're wrong. Blue might be a problem in a metagame full of casual players, but the banlist is meant to reign in competitive players. In a metagame of competitive players, who tune their decks to win rather than to be splashy and funny, blue is NOT a problem. Only Clique is.
Quote from Wangthunder »
What were you thinking? I don't mind hearing constructive criticism, and who knows, maybe there is a gem I didn't think of.
Cut all the non-instant speed spells that cost more than 3 (yes, even Tunnel Vision and Mystical Tutor, if you're brave). Cut 3-4 lands. Cut a few of the crappier counterspells like Mindbreak Trap and Disrupting Shoal...expensive things that don't cantrip are not your friend, same with almost anything that makes for card disadvantage. Clean up your bounce, play all the cantrips. You're missing staples like Into the Roil, Treachery, and Overwhelming Intellect (best card in the deck). You're aiming for around 30 counterspells, 9-12 bounce spells, 12-15 draw spells, a few misc cards, and the rest land. Play Strip Mine, Tectonic Edge, Expedition Map. That's a start.
May as well chime in with Deprive as a replacement for any of the situational counters (pick one). Two drop hard counters are always worth a slot in my book, even with it's minor drawback.
quick question, any reason why you are running wasteland and not strip mine? if its banned in your area, thats fine, but you should at least mention it, there is virtually no drawback to playing mine over wasteland
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Josh "War" Monks
Seattle, WA
Team Still Had All These (ofc)
swerv'in your blighnin's since 2009
Cards Choices:
If I had to replace cards with better stuff I'd take out: Fabricate (sorcery), Mystical tutor (negative CA), and Whispers of the muse (too slow). I'd replace them with better draw spells. Maybe Inspiration and opportunity, or (less likely) stroke of genius and murmurs from beyond; but I'm not sure if they are better.
Also: Sunder(I'm not sure if I should bounce my own lands. Also when is the best time to do it? I'd guess at the beginning of my opponents upkeep so they can't play cards except a land, or at the end of their turn, so they have to discard.), Ishochron Scepter (Because it's sorcery and if they kill it, its a 2 for 1. But I can imagine it'd be the nuts if one gets it working. I just haven't got it working), Proteus Staff (repeating myself, but 3 cost sorcery. I do not think they are very good. But you can steal their creatures and then get more of yours. And then once your out of creatures you can stack you library.)
Cards I'd wanna add: Library of alexandria, crucible of the worlds, maze of ith
Other considerations: Should have +2 lands. 31 counterspell is probably too much. Probably should have -2 or 3 counterspell, and maybe +2 bounce.
Anyway I think my illogical rambling has covered a lot of things.
Anyone have something else to add?
Also how do I get the deck to work so that it doesn't glitch magic workstation? When I import the deck it says it can't find many, many cards.
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This decklist has been tuned quite extensively, although mostly in the vacuum of my local metagame. I have a few odd choices that I plan on justifying, as well as a couple slots I haven't seen other clique players testing. I know I enjoy discussing EDH on these forums, so hopefully we can get some good insight and discussion on this deck. Note that this list is using our local banned list (which does not ban sol ring or crucible, but does ban strip mine.)
*DISCLAIMER* - Before people jump on the bandwagon and suggest that clique is broken... take a look at the game you are playing. Clique isn't the problem, blue is! EDH isn't really designed to handle blue permission, and while generals like Venser and Teferi certainly don't provide the aggressive clock that clique does, you could interchange each of those generals freely and the deck will be mostly unchanged, and still win.
1 Maze of Ith
1 Remote Isle
28 Snow-Covered Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scrying Sheets
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Tolaria West
1 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Mouth of Ronom
Creatures(4):
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Sower of Temptation
Spells(53):
1 Spin into Myth
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Dominate
1 Control Magic
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Capsize
1 Repeal
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Compulsion
1 Gush
1 Inspiration
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sol Ring
1 Repulse
1 Dream Fracture
1 Mana Drain
1 Hinder
1 Force of Will
1 Forbid
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Exclude
1 Essence Scatter
1 Dissipate
1 Disrupting Shoal
1 Dismiss
1 Cryptic Command
1 Counterspell
1 Condescend
1 Complicate
1 Think Twice
1 Thwart
1 Impulse
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Opportunity
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Careful Consideration
1 Spell Burst
1 Memory Lapse
1 Sage's Dousing
1 Remove Soul
1 Remand
1 Power Sink
1 Pact of Negation
1 Miscalculation
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Evacuation
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Desertion
1 Tunnel Vision
Lands
Maze of Ith: This card wins the mirror match, as well as goes a LONG way to save you on a lot of relevant matchups in the format.
Remote isle and Lonely Sandbar: Both are pretty self explanatory. 95% of the time you will be cycling them, but in the rare case where you actually need the blue, its there.
Academy Ruins: Provides a way to recur Vedalken Shackles, Nevinyrral's Disk, and Aether Spellbomb.
Fetch Lands: I see a lot of decklists (for a lot of generals) that do not run fetch lands. Provides deck thinning with no drawback.
Scrying Sheets: Works really well for nearly every mono colored deck.. it works really well for this deck. Over the course of a game, this will provide tons of card advantage.
Tolaria West: A lot of people have a tendency to omit or undervalue this card, but it gives you a nearly un-counterable tutor for any of your utility lands, or Pact of Negation if you really need it.
Wasteland/Ghost Quarter/Dust Bowl: All three are pretty self explanatory. Give you a way to deal with problematic lands such as Maze of Ith.
Riptide Laboratory: Gives you a great method to protect your clique, and it doubles as an awesome combo with Venser, Shaper Savant, as well as your clique.
Mouth of Ronom: Gives you an out against pro/x creatures.
Creatures
Venser, Shaper Savant: He's got legs, and an incredible ability. He is an answer to "cannot be countered", and with Riptide Laboratory in play, it gives you an awesome combo.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir: Alot of people look at me odd when they see Teferi, considering I only run 3 or 4 creatures, but even if he didn't have the give critters flash ability, I would still run him. He does wonders against a mirror/counter heavy matchup, and it virtually soft locks the game against nearly every way to answer clique. Most of the time, your opponents only chance to kill clique is to play something EoT, and then more spells during their main.. Teferi stops that.
Sower of Temptation: Some people don't like this guy, and that is understandable, he is a big target. I normally run him, but that is a metagame choice.. the deck will easily run fine without him. I normally don't regret casting it, and it usually pees in your opponents koolaid when you steal their combo piece or general.
Spells
Spin into Myth: This card just rocks. Not only does it combo with Tunnel Vision, its just great at clearing out a general or annoying guy.
Nevinyrral's Disk: I usually don't see people running this either, but I have had good success with it. Most games, I don't even pop it, but its great insurance just sitting on the table. It makes your already cautious opponent even more cautious.
Aether Spellbomb: Great early tempo, and it lets you play less aggressively. Having a way to bounce a guy and clique it is pretty good.
Dominate: Most people don't run this either, but it has worked out well for me. its a tutorable target and castable at EoT, and casting it is usually enough to pee in their koolaid.
Control Magic: Usually not a dead draw, and alot of the time you get to steal something big or good.
Vedalken Shackles: Just another efficient method to steal guys, and something your opponent will waste a pithing needle on a lot of the time
Capsize: Self explanatory. Boomerang that doesn't go away.
Repeal: Great bounce that replaces itself.
Crucible of Worlds: Self explanatory. Fortunately, if you are using a list that bans this card, the deck still works fine without it.
Compulsion: Another card that I don't see many people run. Its secondary effect is decent on its own, but giving you the ability to cycle all the lands you draw is pretty awesome.
Gush: Self explanatory. Not even horrible if you hard cast it, awesome late game draw or to randomly avoid LD.
Inspiration: Instant speed draw 2.. it could cost less, but it works great with clique.
Mystical Tutor: A card I see a lot of people not playing.. and I cant figure out why. It gives you access to so many cards nearly on demand, as well as a win condition, if you play it.
Relic of Progenitus: Most games its a bad Whispers of the Muse, but some games its a nail in the coffin. Worth running just incase.
Repulse: Awesome bounce that replaces itself.
Think Twice: Good instant speed draw with flashback.
Impulse: Incredible card that lets you dig deep and get what you need directly to hand, and clears the other cards out of the way.
Fact of Fiction: Self explanatory.
Stroke of Genius: While its rather inefficient, I have had a pretty good experience with it. 1 card for 3U isn't that great, even at instant speed.. but 2 for 4U is passable.. it goes up from there.
Opportunity: Very expensive, but instant speed draw 4.. hard to find.
Ancestral Vision: Great card to suspend turn 1, but even cast late game, it will normally get you some good cards.
Careful Consideration: Not really that great as far as raw card advantage goes, but it digs 4 deep at instant speed... or gives you something to use mana drain mana on
Evacuation: Gives you an out to shroud guys, or wraths out tokens.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: I haven't seen a lot of testing on this guy either (at least, on the forums.) I have been playing it for awhile now, and have been very satisfied with the results. It gives you a great setup for Tunnel Vision, it gives you a brainstorm every turn, lets you bounce a guy.. or it just wins the game. This guy was my win condition a majority of the time until I started running Tunnel vision.
Isochron Scepter: Some people like it, some people don't.. this is probably the card I have the most mixed feelings for. It requires a big initial investment, two cards and two mana on your turn, but the benefits can be incredible.
Tunnel Vision: Probably the most controversial card I see in any clique discussion. I for one don't really understand the down side... if you cast it, you win. Granted, it costs a lot, and requires some setup, but I think its well worth the investment.
Counter Spells
Dream Fracture: Solid 3cc counterspell. While it does give your opponent a card, it gives you a card too, and chances are that your card is an answer.
Mana Drain: Self explanatory. Counterspell that gives you fuel to cast spells during your turn.
Hinder: Great 3cc counterspell that tucks their big threat, and sets up for Tunnel Vision.
Force of Will: Self explanatory. Usually I am not a big fan of cards that make you discard/remove other cards (ala commandeer), but its just that good.
Exclude: Aggressively costed counterspell for guys that replaces itself.
Forbid: Cancel with the ability to discard a couple islands and buy it back.
Faerie Trickery: Another dissipate, removes big threats and keeps them removed.
Essence Scatter: Another Remove Soul, very aggressively costed counterspell.
Dissipate: See Faerie Trickery, removes threats.
Disrupting Shoal: About as good while casting it for its alternate cost, usually better than Force of Will when hard casting it.
Dismiss: Incredibly efficient counterspell that replaces itself.
Cryptic Command: See Dismiss, plus it has combat tricks or boomerang.
Counterspell: ... its counterspell.
Condescend: Usually, I think X counterspells are usually not that great, but this is one of the few worth running. Gives you a turn 2 counter on the draw, plus it scrys.
Complicate: An inefficient Mana Leak with the ability to cycle. You will be surprised at how often you will catch a spell while cycling it.
Thwart: Not really aggressively costed, but its alternate casting cost makes it a solid fit.
Spell Burst: Not that great early game, but an awesome tutor target late game. With enough mana, it just makes people scoop.
Memory Lapse: A decent counterspell for most decks, an incredible one for clique. It lets you set up a turn to clique their big threat.
Sage's Dousing: Not really that great when casting it without a wizard in play.. amazing when you do.
Remove Soul: See Essence Scatter.
Remand: While it doesn't remove a threat entirely, it replaces itself, and lets you see what is coming.
Power Sink: Probably one of the most underrated X counters available. Most of the time, it Time Stops an opponent.
Pact of Negation: Another counterspell that lets you set up the turn, and while its drawback sucks (3UU on your turn), its better than losing the game.
Miscalculation: Pretty good early game, you will usually be able to catch an opponent with it. It also cycles when you have 5 counterspells in hand
Mindbreak Trap: Awesome in the mirror/counter matchup, its also an out against uncounterable or Boseiju.
Desertion: This used to be Overwhelming Intellect, but I replaced it with this recently, and have not been disappointed. As a counterspell, it costs way too much.. but countering their Uril and then beating them with it should put a smile on your face.
The Deck
Clique is a very powerful general, but it also has a high level of complexity. Anyone can cast (random counterspell) at (random threat) and occasionally win, but that won't make them a good pilot. Clique is played differently than traditional mono blue decks, in which you rarely play a threat, play very conservatively, and eventually whittle the opponent down. Clique plays a lot more like an aggro deck, and this is where a lot of the complexity comes in.
Most players feel they have to counter every threat they see, regardless of its impact on the game. In reality, most "threats" aren't really threats at all, who cares if they resolve a little guy or a fellwar stone. You want to get clique out, safely, as soon as possible; and then protect it for 7 turns. Now, this deck can be played like a traditional mono blue deck, and with a more experienced player, this works fine. Just realize that the longer the game goes, the more time you give your opponent to do stuff, and you don't want that.
Card advantage plays a big role in this deck as well. You already have the perceived advantage as soon as you flip your general over, and having a full hand of cards just reinforces that perception, especially against less experienced players. Even with this illusion aside, the name of the game is: have more answers than your opponent has threats, so you want cards.
The Matchups
This deck (blame blue, not clique ;)) has the advantage against most of the prevalent decks in the format, and while I would love to give detailed analysis of each of the matchups and how they play out... there isn't really a need. This is usually how your game will turn out:
Each player plays some lands, they play something and you counter it, you play clique, you protect clique for seven turns.
Sometimes things go wrong, you won't have the resources available to counter every kill spell or random nuisance. In this case, you still have the option of playing clique out and beating them some more, or you can slow roll into a tunnel vision, which usually just wins.
How to beat it
While the deck is incredibly resilient, it is definitely not unbeatable. I have played many games against random decks that have gotten pretty close. Decks that run manlands, or lands that make guys (ala Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree, or Urza's Factory) can give you problems. In addition to that, decks that have a very high threat density can get rough.. I played a match against Anowon the other day that I nearly lost, just because he ran very aggressive discard, tons of kill spells, and just big guys.
Aggressive discard gives this deck problems, just because of the nature of discard. Even if you counter it, the discard player still wins by making you discard a counterspell.
Cards I don't run
There are quite a few cards that I have tested and removed for various reasons.
Random guys (such as Draining Whelk, Glen Elendra Archmage, Spellstutter Sprite, Voidmage Prodigy): I have tested all of these guys, and I just found them lacking. Draining Whelk and Spellstutter Sprite are both decent, but just didn't make the cut. I have a hard time justifying Sower of Temptation most of the time because it is so frail, and having more guys that you have to defend makes you waste resources on stuff other than clique.
Logic Knot: While this card is ok with alot of cards in your graveyard, id rather have another X spell, and I feel there is only room for a couple X spells at best.
Broken Ambitions/Spell Blast/Other X spells: Same deal as Logic Knot. X spells are clunky, and can leave you horribly exposed if played improperly.
Last Word: I would maybe run this if I had alot of mirrors in my metagame, but I don't. Even then, I would probably rather run Boseiju over this.
Rune Snag: Just a pretty bad card, Miscalculation is strictly better.
Discombobulate: I have a hard time fitting in 4cc counterspells, and I feel that Dismiss, Thwart, and Mindbreak Trap are just better options.
Declaration of Naught: I used to run it when Arcum was around, I don't anymore. Its really good if you know your meta has a lot of decks that rely on their general (such as Arcum or Isamaru equipment), but kind of weak otherwise.
Rewind: See Discombobulate.
Foil: it was between this and Thwart, and Thwart just tested out better.
Brainstorm: I get a lot of odd looks when people see that I don't play it, but it is totally underwhelming in this deck. It nets you 0 card advantage, and without a lot of shuffle effects, just doesn't stand up.
Ponder: Much better than Brainstorm due to the shuffle effect, I just couldn't find room for it. I feel that all of the 1cc cards in this list are just better.
Thirst for Knowledge/Frantic Search/Lat-Nam's Legacy/Opt: All of these look good at first, but don't provide a real benefit. none of them give you real card advantage (unless you pitch an artifact to thirst.)
Sunder: I tested it, a lot, because I wanted to like it. Unfortunately, it usually opens you up more than it helps you.
Commandeer: Looks like it should be good right? you totally get to snag a spell for free!... Unfortunately, that's not the case. You are losing three cards to snag an often irrelevant spell.
Echoing Truth: I ran this originally, but replaced it with Repulse. It just didn't do enough for me to justify keeping it in.
Sensei's Divining Top: Another topic of heated debate. Its not a horrible card, on the contrary, its really good; however I just couldn't find room for it. *If Sol Ring wasn't playable in my area, I would replace it with Top*
Annul/Disrupt/Force Spike (and similar spells): All of these are way too conditional. Annul is great if you know your opponent is going to cast a relevant artifact or enchantment that will win them the game. A similar situation for the others, their scope is just too narrow to be usable.
Stifle: Another spot of contention I see frequently, and the argument I hear is "but hey, there will always be something to stifle!". While this argument is true, it just doesn't hold up. For stifle to be good, you will have to have a relevant threat to cast it on... stifling a fetch land or something silly like that is hardly game ending, and unless I can guarantee I will be stifling something that matters, I can't devote a spot.
I guess this concludes my rather lengthy walk through 1v1 Clique. Please feel free to ask questions or discuss (constructively) any choices.
This is both false and misleading. It's true that many EDH decks, especially on the casual/multiplayer side of the spectrum, do poorly against mono-blue in 1v1. That's because a perspective exists that EDH is supposed to be slow and filled with huge splashy spells. That kind of deck can't compete with mono-blue.
However, competitive decks are not in the same boat. Most of them have plenty of game against mono-blue. My favorite deck at the moment is a competitive Wort, Boggart Auntie goblin tribal list--I've played it extensively on MWS in the last month. I've played at least 20 different mono-blue decks, mostly best of 3. I've played loads of Azami, loads of Teferi, loads of Venser, a few Kami of the Crescent Moon, and a smattering of Kira/Thada Adel/other. (Also mostly mono-blue decks, like Niv-Mizzet and Jhoira).
In all these matches, I have lost not a single game, against any of these decks. Not one. I don't play any specific hate-cards against blue decks, but classic mono-blue decks are just unable to deal with the way that deck plays.
My deck isn't the only one--Hephlathio's Wort the Raidmother does very well against blue, as does Evergreen's Iname, Death Aspect, and a whole host of others. I play all kinds of strange decks on MWS (testing for my compendium), and most of my decks beat generic blue decks the majority of the time. Mono-blue is NOT a problem when the other decks are also made to win.
With Clique, all that goes out the window. I played Clique myself for quite a while; I know how broken it is. I played a couple of games against it with my undefeated-against-blue Wort list, just to be sure, and got smashed, as I suspected.
You can't claim that it is blue that is overpowered, and not Clique. It's just false. If you take your deck and swap in any other general (with minor changes, if you like), I would be surprised if it could win ANY games against competitive decks. Clique pulls so much weight in this deck, and is absolutely the factor that makes this deck virtually unbeatable.
I find your "How to beat it" section hilarious. The best examples you can cite for decks that can beat this one are decks that "almost beat you" or "got pretty close." (And I can't understand how manlands ever even came close to beating Clique's 7-turn clock.) Discard is one of the only things that's at all effective, but even that usually can't get the job done, considering that you have many, many more counterspells than even the most dedicated black deck has discard.
In the end, I just can't respect a Clique deck at all. It's horribly overpowered, and has a exceedingly high win-loss ratio against even decks designed to beat it. If you're looking to win the most games possible, there is absolutely no reason to play anything else, so Clique is a broken general. Other blue generals can't boast anywhere near the same percentages, so don't blame blue to excuse the ridiculousness of your general.
There were three different games that I was in big trouble -- one against therestless's Braids, one against Hephlathio's Wort, and another against atomic_dragon's Teferi.
In both the Braids and Wort games, there was simply no way I was able to take control of the game like a blue deck traditonally does. Bloodghast + Nether Traitor was giving me major problems due to Bloodghast's reanimation and Nether Traitor having a cheap casting cost to slip past most countermagic. On another token, Hephlathio had a higher curve to his deck overall, but he had incredible threat density. Virtually very single one of his cards was a must-counter threat.
Vendilion Clique bailed me out in both of those games, by racing therestless's army and doing the same thing to Hephlathio as he exhausted my counters and started playing some serious token generators like Beacon of Creation.
In the game against Teferi, Clique got into play first on turn 3 (with Force backup since I am the biggest Hinder magnet in the world), yanked his only draw spell in hand which was Fact or Fiction, and he was put on an immediate clock that a normal MUC deck has problems really actually solving. By the time he could get Teferi out with counter backup, it was far too late.
The thing with Clique is that it gives MUC a new dimension that it has been lacking for over 12 years -- a clock that ends a game quickly... at least for a blue deck. Couple this with the fact that you have a devastating hand wrecking ability that can disable generals, eliminate ANY non land threat, *and* thumb its nose at graveyard recursion.
The worst part was that I was playing with a Clique deck that I built in 5 minutes. I am dead serious. I don't want even to imagine going into an EDH tournament with a fully optimized Clique deck.
I still think you should add in 1x Trinket Mage and 1x Sensei's, but maybe that's just me as an Azami player.
No, I 100% agree. I play Trinket Mage with a fetchable artifact package of:
Trinket Mage has been a MVP in many of my games, esp if you have Riptide Laboratory out.
d.g
I think you are not considering the average playskill of a random mws player. I have played about 60 games on mws, and haven't lost yet either... do I think its the deck? some, a lot of it is the piloting too.
I also never said once that the deck is unbeatable, quite the opposite. Part of the reason I started this was to stimulate productive discussion on how to beat it. I have no problems believing that you have stomped every match on mws, and not to knock your skill, because im sure you are a great player.. but sometimes mws is like stealing candy from a baby.
To prove this exact point, I swapped clique for venser at our last tournament, and ended up splitting first. Sure, I had some losses, but the deck piloted very similar. Now, like I said.. sure clique is amazing, and alot better than the other guys, but a skilled mono blue player behind a mono blue deck will pee in a lot of koolaid.
Dont you think that is kind of arrogant, when just a few paragraphs ago you were talking about how you have never been beat on mws with wort?
Manlands pose a huge threat when they are denying clique with a maze of ith or some random flying guy that got through. This was actually a problem when I was playing a few weeks ago against Uril; he had a maze active, vitu-ghazi, and got a Wall of Reverence through.
I would probably disagree a little bit about discard, I would say it has a great chance at evening up against clique. Just with the nature of discard, they are making you get rid of cards.. and that's if you counter it. In addition to that, they have tons of high level threats that you have to worry about, so eventually you have to make a choice.
I prefer casual games more than most, so I wouldn't mind if edh went back to gold dragons. However, if I am playing in a competitive environment, I am going to play a competitive deck.
As far as the general goes, I never said it wasn't better than the other blue generals, my point was even with clique gone, blue will still pose a big problem to the format.
I don't think trinket mage is bad, I just didn't like it when I tested with it. We are talking about fully converting to the french list, and when that happens, I will most likely include top, I just don't know if I can find room for trinket mage. Every time I have tested with it, it just seems like win more, and it never really did much for the game state.. sure, it can fetch a spellbomb or top or something, but it rarely comes up where I absolutely need them.
What were you thinking? I don't mind hearing constructive criticism, and who knows, maybe there is a gem I didn't think of.
Where did I say that I was testing Clique against random MWS players? I would feel like far too much of a douche. The vast majority of my Clique testing was done within my own playgroup, against players who I know are highly skilled and have good decks. Some of it was basically just goldfishing games with a partner to see if any of the other decks even stood a chance against Clique's assault (the vast majority of the time, the answer is no).
It's certainly true that much depends on the skill of the pilot, but regardless, you can't consider 60-0 against a diverse field to be acceptable and normal. (I was over 100-0 before I stopped...) You may well be an awesome player, but variance exists. The best players in the world can't go 60-0 against the field with any deck, in any format. This one is definitely the deck, not just playskill. (Variance exists for Clique as well, but the deck is so tremendously overpowered that even when the deck draws absolutely terribly, it can still win. I drew 14 (or was it 16?) lands in a row once, and still won that game.)
All this tells me is that your tournament scene isn't especially strong (which I strongly suspected anyway, as apparently no one there can beat blue decks). I know from lots and lots of testing that Venser just isn't that good, and should not be winning tournaments (especially not with your list, which is super-light on win-conditions when running Venser as the general).
Let's deconstruct this statement. You're admitting that Clique is "alot better" than other blue generals, but you think this is okay because a skilled mono blue player will win most games anyway. This does not follow. Mono-blue is a very strong archetype in 1v1 EDH. I think everyone can agree on that. It will definitely beat bad decks. However, mono-blue is nowhere near unbeatable. Nowhere near. Good decks can beat it--plenty of competitive decks have very favorable matchups against it, because they can maintain pressure long enough for the blue deck to run out of cards.
So, mono-blue is strong, but fine overall, assuming an equally competitive metagame. Clique is much better than other mono-blue decks--to such an extent that it definitively makes the Clique deck NOT fine. Decks that can consistently beat other mono-blue decks by grinding them down can almost never do the same against Clique. It's a whole different type of deck than other mono-blue generals, and it cannot be fairly compared with them.
Put it another way: mono-blue is not a problem for any of my decks. Clique is an insurmountable problem for ALL of my decks. There is clearly a major difference between Clique and all the other blue generals.
How is that arrogant? I don't get what you're implying. My Wort deck isn't undefeated, but it is undefeated against mono-blue decks. That's a fact. When a deck is undefeated across many games, it means something. In my case, it means that my Wort deck has a very good matchup against non-Clique blue decks. This makes perfect sense--it packs plenty of removal to keep the general off the board, a modicum of discard, and attacks very quickly from two different angles. It also plays things like Goblin Lackey and Aether Vial, cards that blue decks have always had great difficulty beating. Without significant amounts of real removal (which doesn't exist in blue) or a comparably fast clock (which doesn't exist outside of Clique), there should be no way that a blue deck can race me or control all my threats indefinitely...and that has been the case, at least so far. However, when your (and my) Clique deck can go undefeated across the whole field, that means something else--that it has broken the metagame wide open, and is operating on a different level than all of the other decks.
Manlands should not be a problem. Looking at your list, it's obvious why they might be, but they shouldn't be. You're missing Strip Mine (!), Tectonic Edge, and Expedition Map, all of which should be in this deck, because you need to be able to quickly answer Maze of Ith or Kor Haven. I also ran Tsabo's Web, which neatly answers Maze of Ith AND manlands, but that one is less typical. You could and should be running at least twice as many answers to Maze of Ith though. This way, Clique doesn't get shut down, and manlands have no hope of racing you. Random flying guys that get through (though honestly, guys of this size should never get through...) can be answered with bounce, which you also should be running a bit more of.
And...I say you're wrong. Blue might be a problem in a metagame full of casual players, but the banlist is meant to reign in competitive players. In a metagame of competitive players, who tune their decks to win rather than to be splashy and funny, blue is NOT a problem. Only Clique is.
Cut all the non-instant speed spells that cost more than 3 (yes, even Tunnel Vision and Mystical Tutor, if you're brave). Cut 3-4 lands. Cut a few of the crappier counterspells like Mindbreak Trap and Disrupting Shoal...expensive things that don't cantrip are not your friend, same with almost anything that makes for card disadvantage. Clean up your bounce, play all the cantrips. You're missing staples like Into the Roil, Treachery, and Overwhelming Intellect (best card in the deck). You're aiming for around 30 counterspells, 9-12 bounce spells, 12-15 draw spells, a few misc cards, and the rest land. Play Strip Mine, Tectonic Edge, Expedition Map. That's a start.
Seattle, WA
Team Still Had All These (ofc)
swerv'in your blighnin's since 2009
1x Vendilion Clique
Draw
1x Brainstorm
1x Whispers of the muse
1x Mystical tutor
1x Sensei's divining top
1x Ancestral vision
1x think twice
1x Impulse
1x Standstill
1x Telling time
1x Fabricate
1x Thirst for knowledge
1x Fact or fiction
1x Gush
Counter
1x Pact of negation
1x Disrupting shoal
1x Force of will
1x Daze
1x Thwart
1x Foil
1x deprive
1x Memory lapse
1x Condescend
1x Miscalculation
1x Power sink
1x Essence scatter
1x Remand
1x Counterspell
1x Mana leak
1x Sage's dousing
1x Faerie trickery
1x Complicate
1x Forbid
1x Exclude
1x Dream fracture - cancel maybe better?
1x Hinder
1x Rewind
1x Dismiss
1x Scattering stroke
1x Logic knot
1x Cryptic command
1x Spell burst
1x Desertion
1x Overwhelming intellect
Other
1x Pithing needle
1x Boomerang
1x Sunder
1x Oblivion stone
1x Wipe away
1x Into the roil
1x capsize
1x Vedalken shackles
1x Control magic - Should be treachery.
1x Ishochron scepter
1x Proteus staff
1x Evacuation
1x Spin into myth
1x Tunnel vision
1x Repulse
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Venser, Shaper savant
1x Teferi, mage of zhalfir
Lands
1x Ghost quarter - Should be tectonic edge.
1x Mutavault
1x Academy ruins
1x Mouth of ronom
1x Minamo, School at water's edge
1x Scrying sheets
1x Riptide laboratory
1x Boseiju, who shelters all
1x Strip mine
1x Ice floe - should be maze of ith
1x Faerie conclave
1x Tolaria west
1x Wasteland
26x Snow covered islands
Cards Choices:
If I had to replace cards with better stuff I'd take out: Fabricate (sorcery), Mystical tutor (negative CA), and Whispers of the muse (too slow). I'd replace them with better draw spells. Maybe Inspiration and opportunity, or (less likely) stroke of genius and murmurs from beyond; but I'm not sure if they are better.
Also: Sunder(I'm not sure if I should bounce my own lands. Also when is the best time to do it? I'd guess at the beginning of my opponents upkeep so they can't play cards except a land, or at the end of their turn, so they have to discard.), Ishochron Scepter (Because it's sorcery and if they kill it, its a 2 for 1. But I can imagine it'd be the nuts if one gets it working. I just haven't got it working), Proteus Staff (repeating myself, but 3 cost sorcery. I do not think they are very good. But you can steal their creatures and then get more of yours. And then once your out of creatures you can stack you library.)
Cards I'd wanna add: Library of alexandria, crucible of the worlds, maze of ith
Other considerations: Should have +2 lands. 31 counterspell is probably too much. Probably should have -2 or 3 counterspell, and maybe +2 bounce.
Anyway I think my illogical rambling has covered a lot of things.
Anyone have something else to add?
Also how do I get the deck to work so that it doesn't glitch magic workstation? When I import the deck it says it can't find many, many cards.