MTG Salvation

With the newly minted cEDH forums, I decided that it would be appropriate to post a couple of Primers so that future cEDH'ers can get an idea of what a Primer will look like and how they can interact on MTGSal. I hope that this Primer is a good example of the type of content we're looking for!

Can you speak to how your list compares and contrasts with the accepted "stock" list that Sigi and Neosloth maintain here?

Certainly!

On a card for card basis of differences between Sigi/Neosloth's list on TappedOut in comparison to mine, these are the differences that I see:



Those are the initial differences that I can see.

The distinction that I immediately note is that my decklist has a slightly higher removal count, with the addition of Shackles and Capsize, in comparison to the stock list which has 2 more cantrips than I (Sleight of Hand and Gitaxian Probe. In my analysis, I think this comes to playstyle and how I perceive card advantage in this cEDH format. Generally speaking, removal counts are low and many of the most valuable creatures in cEDH have power 2 or less. I have found, through my own experiences, that Shackles has generally overperformed for me in halting an opponent's gameplan. The immediate comparison that I would make for this is the power of Gilded Drake. Gaining control of an opponent's creature is VERY powerful, especially when done at a low CMC. I believe that Shackles trades the CMC efficiency of Drake and other removal spells for a card that synergizes more completely with the decklist as a whole while also being repeatable. I have often tutored for Shackles via [CARD}Whir of Invention[/CARD] in order to gain control of an Arcum, Yisan, Kaalia, or Zur. The opponent then either spends a tutor to go and find a removal spell or, more often than not, is stranded from executing their primary gameplan. While I certainly concede the efficacy of cantrips in digging into a tutor in order to execute our own combo line, I find that I personally prefer the tempo loss and subtle card advantage that removal spells provide. I readily admit, though, that there have been times where Capsize has looked particularly useless depending on the board state.

Verity Circle is a card I simply haven't tested yet, hence its lack of inclusion in the maindeck. I anticipate that it will replace Careful Consideration as it did in the stock list.

Urza's FActory is a holdover from the original decklist that hasn't been too terrible. I haven't had it in play and diminish the amount of mana that High Tide needs to make in order to combo off, and the ability to make chump blockers has been useful at times. In full disclosure, though, this is a land that should be removed for an Island.

Forge of Heroes has actually been relatively interesting as a land. Because it adds loyalty counters directly to a Planeswalker, there is a small corner case where you can create infinite mana with Teferi's minus ability, mana rocks, and Forge of Heroes. It's come up once during a game, but not since then.

Blue Sun's Zenith is simply a good card in my opinion and I prefer to have as many draw X effects in the deck as possible. I prefer the raw card advantage the Zenith provides in comparison to the repeatable Pulse of the Grid. I'd rather see a burst of 3-4 cards for more mana than only net 2 cards from Pulse at the same mana cost consideration.

Everflowing Chalice has been consistent at what it needs to do for me. It can scale into a Sol permanent when it needs to or be a combo piece with Tezzeret the Seeker. Its flexibility in how much mana it produces is valuable to me, especially since I can tutor for it via Trinket Mage to get the last mana source I need to reliably combo off.

I think that Mana Leak is an underrated counterspell, personally. While Flusterstorm may be better if there's a Storm presence in your playgroup, I find that Flash Hulk decks or Arcum decks are more popular currently. And the Leak is effectively a hard counter at 1U against hose decks whereas there might be some cases where the Flusterstorm simply misses.

Great stuff! I think the most relevant one that I personally think should be changed for your list is the Verity Circle over Consideration. In the small testing I've seen and heard from, Verity Circle is one of the best draw effects printed in a while. Flusterstorm is a card I would never omit in anything close to a full budgetless meta, just because it doesn't take Storm decks to make it effective. Most decks chain spells nearer to the end of a game, and are usually pinched on mana. Flusterstorm is also effectively uncounterable outside of another Flusterstorm, which comes up constantly for me.

Thanks! Mana Leak is a card that's often come in and out of the deck for other counterspells. Since I play against my wife's Kaalia deck most frequently (particularly in 1v1 matches) I like my counterspells to be as live as possible in that matchup. Flusterstorm was consistently useless in that matchup whereas the leak countered that T3 Kaalia without fail.

That being said, I've often eyed Spell Pierce as a slot option for Flusterstorm. How has the Pierce performed in your experience? I'll also pose the question to the Discord and see what they say as well.

EDIT: I've updated the OP to reflect some Discord discussion. Based on the cumulative experience of the Discord, Flusterstorm is too important to leave out and Forge of Heroes and Urza's Factory are not terribly good cards. Cut the Spell Pierce and the lands in favor of Islands and Flusterstorm

Ah yeah that's definitely a bit of a less common experience than what I've seen haha. Spell Pierce is ok too, but Flusterstorm is so much more often a far better counterspell.

Yup, the Discord consensus is similar. The Primer has been updated to reflect that!

In other speculation, it seems like they're hinting at an artifact centric deck in the near future with all the enchantment and artifact removal that's being printed in the new Ravnica sets. I sure hope so, because Paradox Engine was the best artifact to come out for combo decks in years.

Also, I haven't been able to play as frequently as others have. What are the most common archetypes represented in the cEDH meta now? I assume that it's 4 Color Hulk decks followed by Zur Storm. Is that right?

This is the most recent data, from the Facebook Group poll.




It's actually a pretty even spread between midrange decks like Teferi, bear decks like Blood Pod, and a smattering of more aggressive combo like Selvala.

Thanks for sharing that. I think it would be useful to have a thread for that kind of information as part of the Primer directory, to be updated twice a year or so. That would be good information to have so that the cEDH community has an idea of how the general meta looks for part of the year. Twice a year would ensure that it accurately reflects any new cards that are introduced while allowing them time to marinate in the cEDH world to actually be substantiated as good cards.

Of those Mid-Range decks, it seems like Teferi is the big boy at the table, which is pretty pleasing to see!

Verity Circle is officially part of the decklist after a review by the Discord community.

- Careful Consideration
+ Verity Circle

Other than that, not much is going with Teferi.

From the old Multi-Player thread for Teferi:

Quote from LordRewind »

gotta say, shifted away from the old tendin tribal list and am currently running the tapped out main primer list. Its pretty ridiculously fast, though there have been a few times where i have mourned the lack of static and winter orb in my main deck. What is your thoughts on the removal of these two stax effects?

It really depends on what your meta looks like. Personally, I have found that Winter Orb has now been largely outclassed as a Stax piece simply because so many cEDH decks focus on mana dorks and mana rocks as their primary sources of mana advantage. While it's nice to be able to slow down mana production from lands, it's generally become less powerful than Cursed Totem. Static Orb is a Stax card that could easily come back in because it DOES hinder the mana development that our opponents can accrue from their mana rocks, mana dorks, and lands. Static Orb is simply more effective now because it hits multiple permanent types in comparison to Winter Orb.

Thanks for transferring my question here.

What ever became of your playtesting for forge of heroes? This seems to go infinite on the turn you play teferi, if it is in play when he enters play - am i mistaken about that? seems incredibly strong if so; but its a dead draw otherwise. You mentioned it wasnt that good, and cut it. Care to explain why?

I brought up the idea of Forge of Heroes to the Discord community there and they argued against its inclusion. So its removal from the main decklist was a concession to the excellent Hive Mind on Discord, especially since I haven't had a chance to playtest with Teferi recently.

Their basic argument was that the chances of the Forge being a dead draw were greater than the niche case of being able to generate infinite colorless mana via the Forge. Further, the corner case where the Forge COULD generate infinite colorless mana was relatively uncommon to lose an Island for.

That logically makes sense. Thanks for the info man. For the record, verity circle does insane work if anyone rocks mana dorks. Its basically a love child of Pithing Needle and Rhystic Study. They SHOULDNT ever use abilities again, so it should function like a global needle, but you know someone eventually will start giving you cards.

That's... a pretty nice comparison. Wow. I'm thinking that maybe I should find some room for it in other blue-based decks I have, particularly my Memnarch deck. Particularly with how ubiquitous mana dorks have become in the cEDH scene.

Spoiler season has begun and already the new set looks promising. I think the card that I'm most excited to try out in this deck is Karn, the Great Creator. Shutting off mana rocks of our opponents is VERY powerful and he can incidentally find Mycosynth Lattice in order to completely lock your opponents out of being able to generate mana. That is some sweet value for 4. I highly recommend giving him a test, but only if your playgroup allows sideboards.

Quote from Jivanmukta »

I'm not sure how you're planning on using Karn's minus ability without exiling your own cards. "Outside the game" cards have no function in Commander.

Depends entirely on playgroups. Ironically, I foresee this Karn being the exact reason why many playgroups will no longer allow for sideboards.

Has anyone experienced any struggles with Lavinia, Azorius Renegade? I genuinely expected her to be a serious issue when she was printed, but she seems to get no love in my circles.

Negative, ghost rider. There was a brief rumor from a member of the cEDH playgroup that he was going to make a Lavinia Prison deck, but I haven't seen it yet. He's played Gitrog instead, which is much scarier in my opinion.

However, she's definitely back-breaking against this particular deck. It's very hard to draw into 6 lands naturally to cast Teferi, which means that we lose probably 3-4 turns conservatively on average if she hits play quickly. I think there's a build of her out there that would be absolutely brutal, but I haven't seen it yet. There are the obvious ones including Knowledge Pool, but those lists seem to suffer from the lack of a fast end-game. You've locked the game down, cool story; now you need to win and do it quickly so you don't incur ill-will in future games or allow your opponents time to get out of the lock.

Hey Benjameen! I've been a long time reader and follower of this deck list, in fact this deck is my first ever cEDH deck and I the only things I'm missing right now is Tabernacle and Timetwister.
Decided to make an account and ask you on your thoughts on WAR cards. The two top cards I'm looking at WAR are Narset, Parter of Veils and Finale of Revelation. Narset is meant to replace Back to Basics for me since my local meta has both Yisan and Selvala, while Finale would be replacing Careful Consideration (my Timetwister replacement. Another card I am also considering is Jace, Wielder of Mysteries as another wincondition, but I am not sure what to cut for it.

Any thoughts on Narset, Parter of Veils?

Quote from Micky »

Hey Benjameen! I've been a long time reader and follower of this deck list, in fact this deck is my first ever cEDH deck and I the only things I'm missing right now is Tabernacle and Timetwister.
Decided to make an account and ask you on your thoughts on WAR cards. The two top cards I'm looking at WAR are Narset, Parter of Veils and Finale of Revelation. Narset is meant to replace Back to Basics for me since my local meta has both Yisan and Selvala, while Finale would be replacing Careful Consideration (my Timetwister replacement. Another card I am also considering is Jace, Wielder of Mysteries as another wincondition, but I am not sure what to cut for it.

Hey y'all, I'm sorry I've been absent from the forums here. My wife and I ran into some marital issues and everything has gone to the back burner for now while we figure out boundaries and work on communication.

Glad that this Primer has been useful! I'm honored that you made an account to comment on here. I think Narset, Parter of Veils is an absolutely fantastic card from the new set. It punishes other player's Wheel effects while helping you dig deeper to find a tutor or combo piece. I'm absolutely finding a space for her in the deck, I just haven't decided which cards I want to cut.

I think the lack of instant speed is a true mark against Finale of Revelation, but I think the effect is worth it. This deck is a Control deck that has a super strong Combo finish, so having a card like Finale to replenish your hand and guarantee max hand size is very attractive. I think it could work very well for you as a budget option. The Finale Cost of X = 10 is REALLY sweet, particularly since you can untap lands. I think Wizards is being really brave in printing such powerful effects on cards now. I'm really pleased with what they're doing from a card design standpoint.

Quote from redtwister »

Any thoughts on Narset, Parter of Veils?

Definitely going into the deck, I just haven't decided which card to cut. The fact that she stops other Wheels from being effective is what makes her super attractive, nevermind the fact that you hinder Mystic Remora and Rhystic Study as well. I'm really excited for her and I personally pre-ordered 2 copies of her. I think she's much better in Eternal formats then people give her credit for.

Yeah, that's my thought for sure. I'm a little on budget (95% not budget, but 5 cards I'm just not playing competitively to bother with, so one of those is now Narset.

I have to say, I really, really wish Dovin, Hand of Control was playable, but that U/W mana symbol...