Every now and then when I peek into this subforum, I see posts about tutors being banned (either as an actual topic or more commonly a post on a thread.
Personally I have no issue with tutors, but every now and then I am in a game where the one tutoring has no clue what they want to look for. This is the only time I have a problem. As they (the player) slow down the game. I run all 10 fetches in my deck, and I may end up taking a few seconds deciding which land I want to fetch (based on what I have on board and in hand.) I also run vampiric tutor, demonic tutor and tooth and nail in my deck. Every game I know what I am looking for when I cast these spells.
But still I see "ban tutors" Soni want to know why people wish to ban tutors so often. I want to hear the justifications to ban and not ban tutors.
Every now and then when I peek into this subforum, I see posts about tutors being banned (either as an actual topic or more commonly a post on a thread.
Personally I have no issue with tutors, but every now and then I am in a game where the one tutoring has no clue what they want to look for. This is the only time I have a problem. As they (the player) slow down the game. I run all 10 fetches in my deck, and I may end up taking a few seconds deciding which land I want to fetch (based on what I have on board and in hand.) I also run vampiric tutor, demonic tutor and tooth and nail in my deck. Every game I know what I am looking for when I cast these spells.
But still I see "ban tutors" Soni want to know why people wish to ban tutors so often. I want to hear the justifications to ban and not ban tutors.
I can't answer your question, but I'll echo your sentiment. People taking too long is the real problem.
People "don't like" extra-turns. When in all actuality, they do. Taking an extra-turn is one of the most viscerally enjoyable things in MTG.
People "don't like" tutoring. When in all actuality, they do. In EDH, the card you want to play with the most is always available in every game in the command zone. They don't actually want randomness (i.e. see "mana-screw" and "color-screw").
I think for some people, it's that too many tutors make each game feel the same, and that tutors lend themselves to much higher power levels. I don't mind them, I don't think it's a problems with the actual tutors, just that once you have a few of the good ones, the natural path it to go more into cEDH because once you have tutors and the lands, it's easy to just enter an arms race
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that is true. when you have tutors you go for your wins. I use to do that every game when i played arcum, get a turn where I can do what i want and then go off.
If it were up to me I would limit tutoring to be that for each color you have in your deck, you can have up to that many tutors. This would include fetches, even like Evolving Wilds.
There would be an exemption for cards that literally state you are searching for a specific nonland card, such as how Urborg Panther searches specifically for Spirit of the Night. I know there is at least another cycle like this in Kamigawa block. Nissa Revane searching for Nissa’s Chosen would be okay BUT her ultimate would definitely count her as a tutor.
It does not matter the color of the tutoring card, for example a Jund deck could run Demonic, Vampric, and Diabolic Tutor, but at that point they would be barred from running any fetches.
That being said, best practice is to KNOW YOUR DECK. It is excusable for first runs, deck borrowing, cards like Bribery, and players within their first um... year to not know what is in the deck you are searching. There is casual, but c’mon.
I could care less about them banning tutors in the most general sense. I do think banning fetches, especially cards like Evolving Wilds is overkill and it would hurt the balance greatly of multicolored decks to the point where 4-5 color decks would be almost unplayable.
When you allow tutors, it greatly hurts deck variety.
Why go deeper into the card pool when you have 10 slots devoted to the best tutors available?
They also encourage combos, which are innately overpowered by the format, especially multi-tutors.
It hurts variety in a casual format which makes decks and games go stale earlier than they should.
People "don't like" tutoring. When in all actuality, they do. In EDH, the card you want to play with the most is always available in every game in the command zone. They don't actually want randomness (i.e. see "mana-screw" and "color-screw").
This is rarely true. Even in my commander focused decks, at every mana cost there is a spell I'd rather have than my commander.
When you allow tutors, it greatly hurts deck variety.
Why go deeper into the card pool when you have 10 slots devoted to the best tutors available?
They also encourage combos, which are innately overpowered by the format, especially multi-tutors.
It hurts variety in a casual format which makes decks and games go stale earlier than they should.
People "don't like" tutoring. When in all actuality, they do. In EDH, the card you want to play with the most is always available in every game in the command zone. They don't actually want randomness (i.e. see "mana-screw" and "color-screw").
This is rarely true. Even in my commander focused decks, at every mana cost there is a spell I'd rather have than my commander.
I guess it's "rarely true" just because you say so. "10 tutors" is really pushing it. Can you name all ten of them?
I find that powerful legendary creatures from Commander sets has done more to damage deck variety than tutor cards by far. Demonic Tutor goes into all decks that have black and that has never limited the variety of decks that I see. But Meren merely existing means I see Meren everywhere.
I guess it's "rarely true" just because you say so. "10 tutors" is really pushing it. Can you name all ten of them?
I find that powerful legendary creatures from Commander sets has done more to damage deck variety than tutor cards by far. Demonic Tutor goes into all decks that have black and that has never limited the variety of decks that I see. But Meren merely existing means I see Meren everywhere.
Depending on the colors and how much disposable income one has access to (I see you, Imperial Seal), it's pretty easy to end up running maybe a dozen tutors. Even if one tries to avoid the "broken" tutors, there are still the "not-good-enough-for-cEDH-but-still-pretty-powerful" tutors like T&N and Diabolic Revelation that can end up warping more casual metas when every game ends with double-tutoring for a combo or something.
Jesus, ten tutors seems excessive unless you are counting ramp spells. Demonic and Vampiric definitely, then Imperial Seal if your rich or play online, then depending on the deck Sidisi and maybe Rune Scarred? Maybe if you are all in on a combo you'll go for some of the more esoteric black tutors, like demonic consultation or even cruel tutor, but usually your going to be mono black if you get that deep, which means you can't use the better non universal tutors like Worldy, Enlightened, and Mystical. But sure, if your pushing and in 4+ colors, you could find 10. Its unrealistic as hell though. Most people simply don't play that way, so your argument is bogus. Demonic and Vampiric are auto includes if you own them, which with Demonic has become more common as its been reprinted, but tell me how many casual players run Demonic Consultation or Cruel Tutor? How many run the uber pricey Imperial Seal? Then many tutors that casuals do run, like Diabolic, suck.
Perhaps if you count narrow tutors like Trinket mage and pals, or the harbingers, things like that, then hitting ten is easier, but those are narrow enough to not cause the same issues as the universal tutors. The ones that search for a broader category like Worldy etc are closer to the universal tutors in this regard. On the opposite end of the scale, Defense of the Heart, PHulk, and T&N aren't just tutors, they're self contained combos that grab multiple cards directly to play (typically grabbing an instant win combo). There's more of an issue with the total package there than the fact that they tutor, and yet when not grabbing combo they are perfectly fine (sidebar anecdote incoming: I just played a game on mtgo yesterday in which a guy running Ezuri flash hulked turn 2 and we were all ready to be upsetty until he just grabbed a bunch of mana dorks and creatures that grab lands because he didn't run any combos besides the flash hulk itself. It put him way ahead on mana but he lacked the draw to leverage it and we all lost turn 6 to grind clock Duskmantle Guildmage combo).
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Depending on the colors and how much disposable income one has access to (I see you, Imperial Seal), it's pretty easy to end up running maybe a dozen tutors. Even if one tries to avoid the "broken" tutors, there are still the "not-good-enough-for-cEDH-but-still-pretty-powerful" tutors like T&N and Diabolic Revelation that can end up warping more casual metas when every game ends with double-tutoring for a combo or something.
You listed many, many options. And some aren't even worth playing. I love Diabolic Revelation. Honestly, why would anyone bring that up as a problem?
And, if someone wants to play Wild Pair or Thalia's Lancers? What do you have against them?
I'm also sure that my question was facetious. I can count to ten and use gatherer as well + not many or any good decks will waste 10 slots on a pure tutors. Using gatherer or edhrec to stuff your deck full of tutors will not build a good deck.
Also, many of the tutors you list also support weaker decks. There's also a case to be made that tutoring allows weaker decks to compete with stronger decks. and once again, where you might see T&N as a problem card in casual, I see T&N as the epitome of being a Timmy in EDH. Doing powerful things is fun.
Depending on the colors and how much disposable income one has access to (I see you, Imperial Seal), it's pretty easy to end up running maybe a dozen tutors. Even if one tries to avoid the "broken" tutors, there are still the "not-good-enough-for-cEDH-but-still-pretty-powerful" tutors like T&N and Diabolic Revelation that can end up warping more casual metas when every game ends with double-tutoring for a combo or something.
You listed many, many options. And some aren't even worth playing. I love Diabolic Revelation. Honestly, why would anyone bring that up as a problem?
And, if someone wants to play Wild Pair or Thalia's Lancers? What do you have against them?
I'm also sure that my question was facetious. I can count to ten and use gatherer as well + not many or any good decks will waste 10 slots on a pure tutors. Using gatherer or edhrec to stuff your deck full of tutors will not build a good deck.
Also, many of the tutors you list also support weaker decks. There's also a case to be made that tutoring allows weaker decks to compete with stronger decks. and once again, where you might see T&N as a problem card in casual, I see T&N as the epitome of being a Timmy in EDH. Doing powerful things is fun.
Depending on the colors and how much disposable income one has access to (I see you, Imperial Seal), it's pretty easy to end up running maybe a dozen tutors. Even if one tries to avoid the "broken" tutors, there are still the "not-good-enough-for-cEDH-but-still-pretty-powerful" tutors like T&N and Diabolic Revelation that can end up warping more casual metas when every game ends with double-tutoring for a combo or something.
You listed many, many options. And some aren't even worth playing. I love Diabolic Revelation. Honestly, why would anyone bring that up as a problem?
And, if someone wants to play Wild Pair or Thalia's Lancers? What do you have against them?
I'm also sure that my question was facetious. I can count to ten and use gatherer as well + not many or any good decks will waste 10 slots on a pure tutors. Using gatherer or edhrec to stuff your deck full of tutors will not build a good deck.
Also, many of the tutors you list also support weaker decks. There's also a case to be made that tutoring allows weaker decks to compete with stronger decks. and once again, where you might see T&N as a problem card in casual, I see T&N as the epitome of being a Timmy in EDH. Doing powerful things is fun.
This is not out of place at all for more competitive decks.
Yes, competitive decks, which is why the core of your argument that "It hurts variety in a casual format which makes decks and games go stale earlier than they should" is bull. cEDH doesn't count when discussing casual, just like Modern tournament diversity doesn't count when discussing 60 card casual. When playing at the highest levels, decks streamline and the number of viable decks inevitably decreases. And more importantly, its not something that defines the casual meta. lack of diversity and variance in cEDH does nothing to casual games. Even trying to argue about it as a problem is foolish. cEDH is a Spike meta. Its for people who want to challenge their skill with the best decks against the best decks. Yeah, competitive Teferi is going to have more tutors than a casual deck and play with far less variance than a casual deck, because that's the play experience cEDH players WANT. If you're arguing that its a problem, you're arguing that they shouldn't play the way they like. If you're arguing that its harming casual, you've got nothing to back it up.
Most of those cards from that list, for instance, aren't going to be issues outside of cEDH where they are searching up combos in a streamlined list as soon as possible. Is Trinket Mage typically a problem? How often does Transmute Artifact pop up outside of tuned lists? How about Muddle the Mixture, is that causing tons of problems when it pops up?
The biggest issue with this argument is that I can see where people are coming form when they say we should ban the fast universal tutors. Demonic, Vampirirc, and Imperial Seal are cheap, have little to no opportunity cost (2 life is negligible), and do the most to streamline even casual decks. But tutors exist on a continuum, two actually, from universal to highly specific, and from efficient to crap. Demonic is both highly efficient and universal, Urborg Panther is both extremely narrow and extremely crap. In between there is a wide variety of tutors, and you have to draw the line somewhere on where they become problematic. No reasonable person should argue that Rampant Growth or Muddle the Mixture are hurting the format, just as no reasonable person can argue that Demonic Tutor doesn't have an impact on variance. I disagree that the tutors should be banned, but I concede there are issues with Demonic, Vampiric, and Imperial Seal and can understand the argument for banning them despite disagreeing with it. Once you get to something like Diabolic Tutor I start doubting the relevance of your opinion, because Diabolic Tutor is not a good card and a sure sign that the pilot is working on a tight budget at best. When someone starts bringing up absolute garbage like Tainted Pact or Insidious Dreams, I have stifle laughter.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
This is not out of place at all for more competitive decks.
Your point is that tutors hurt deck diversity but that's not the case.
Look at the tutors that you listed. Examples like Reshape and Transmute Artifact are very theme specific. In order to run those, you have to skew your deck heavily towards artifacts. I don't see all cEDH being heavily artifact themed. So in a way, those tutors let many types of decks exist. Just like how enchantment tutors can encourage people to build around enchantments and those land tutors encourage people to build lands matter decks.
And many of the cards you mentioned aren't pure tutors. They are only even run because they can function multiple roles in the deck at the same time. +10 tutors in a deck is a lot of air. And like I said, if you want to build a good deck, it's tough to play that much air. You might start every decklist as 1 Sol Ring and 10 tutors, but that is lazy deck building.
I have 3 decks without Sol Ring and I'm sure that I built them in optimal ways. In the same way, I never felt compelled to include tutors just to have them. I feel much move compelled to include things like Doubling Season, you know, cards that actually do things.
This is not out of place at all for more competitive decks.
Your point is that tutors hurt deck diversity but that's not the case.
Look at the tutors that you listed. Examples like Reshape and Transmute Artifact are very theme specific. In order to run those, you have to skew your deck heavily towards artifacts. I don't see all cEDH being heavily artifact themed. So in a way, those tutors let many types of decks exist. Just like how enchantment tutors can encourage people to build around enchantments and those land tutors encourage people to build lands matter decks.
And many of the cards you mentioned aren't pure tutors. They are only even run because they can function multiple roles in the deck at the same time. +10 tutors in a deck is a lot of air. And like I said, if you want to build a good deck, it's tough to play that much air. You might start every decklist as 1 Sol Ring and 10 tutors, but that is lazy deck building.
I have 3 decks without Sol Ring and I'm sure that I built them in optimal ways. In the same way, I never felt compelled to include tutors just to have them. I feel much move compelled to include things like Doubling Season, you know, cards that actually do things.
Competitive decks run a small number of game winning cards, and then a lot of ways to get those game winning cards. Your example of doubling season is actually not a particularly strong competitive play, because for the same mana cost someone might cast ad nauseum or final parting for worldgorger + reanimate and win the game immediately.
And while it is possible for optimal lists to not include sol ring, that list is VERY small, and those decks are extremely optimized. I would wager that all three of the decks you think are optimal without sol ring should actually be running sol ring.
But all of this is separate from the actual topic at hand, which is why ban tutors.
The main reason continues to be that tutors have best targets in most situations, and time and time again people will keep going for the same lines of play instead of adapting to new sets of cards in their hand.
Competitive decks run a small number of game winning cards, and then a lot of ways to get those game winning cards. Your example of doubling season is actually not a particularly strong competitive play, because for the same mana cost someone might cast ad nauseum or final parting for worldgorger + reanimate and win the game immediately.
And while it is possible for optimal lists to not include sol ring, that list is VERY small, and those decks are extremely optimized. I would wager that all three of the decks you think are optimal without sol ring should actually be running sol ring.
But all of this is separate from the actual topic at hand, which is why ban tutors.
The main reason continues to be that tutors have best targets in most situations, and time and time again people will keep going for the same lines of play instead of adapting to new sets of cards in their hand.
How come your arguments/posts center around cEDH or competitive? Let's not discuss the banlist exclusively under the umbrella of cEDH. First, cEDH is a nebulous term. Second, cEDH doesn't have a separate banlist apart from actual EDH. If you're going to dismiss every 5 cmc card, just because it's not good enough to stack up again Ad Naus, then what's the point of complaining about Bribery?
Your main complaint against tutors (repetitiveness) happens have with or without tutors. Because the root causes of repetitiveness aren't tutors.
For instance, let's consider Doubling Season. If someone tutors for that card every single game in their super friend deck, is the tutor the issue or is Doubling Season? Maybe the repetitive search for Doubling Season is because that card is so far and above every other card in the deck.
Doubling Season and PW decks are also interesting in the consideration of repetitiveness because many would argue that it's a very repetitive archetype. Even non-green PW decks play out essentially the same. They're all stacks of removal, wrath's, and fogs. So redundant effects are why they're repetitive, not the Demonic Tutor for Doubling Season.
And let's face it, people actually want their decks to function/play out the same each game. That's why people play redundant effects, consistent mana, and build around their generals. You don't want repetitiveness, but you fail to address the elephant in the room, generals and building around them make decks play out very consistently.
If you have ever play tested competitively, you'll no doubt realize that many match-ups are predictable. That's just what happens when you run the same 75 vs the other same 75. Games being fun and non-repetitive in EDH owe a lot to how decks interact in unpredictable ways in multiplayer pods. I can build a Brago deck to be consistent and do the same things, but when I bring it to a different pod, the games will play out differently whether I tutor or not (and I do use Recruiter of the Guard to get many different creatures each game). That should be primary source of games being fresh and new. Games don't just become fresh and new because you are ban happy.
Here are some factors that play into repetitiveness more so than tutors:
1.) The strength of new threats they print is very high and many players will gravitate towards those same threats. I wished WOTC would stop printing for EDH.
2.) Many of those new strong cards are legendary creatures. I personally don't like playing against 3-4 Merens at every store, but it seems like other people do. Once again, players will flock to strong threats and when they are commanders, its effect is even more potent on you seeing the same stuff each game.
3.) With the release of each set, more redundant effects are available and find their ways into decks.
4.) EDHREC and commander content means a lot of people hear/see/become influenced the same things.
5.) Generous mulligan rules. You'll see this has had a huge impact in sanctioned magic as well. This is literally a rule that makes games play out more the same each time.
6.) It has become socially unacceptable to impact the game such that players have anything other than their ideal board-state. You even have huge cry-babies that whine when you remove their Consecrated Sphinx. Apparently, it's even frowned upon to play Torpor Orb because it's "stax." Players actively expect all of their resources to remain intact for an entire game. Well, if you can always plan to have all of your colors and play ahead on curve, then of course games will play out the same each time.
Your main complaint against tutors (repetitiveness) happens have with or without tutors. Because the root causes of repetitiveness aren't tutors.
No... it's pretty clearly the tutors. I don't care how good Doubling Season is in your deck; when you can't easily tutor for it every game there is less repetition. This feels pretty self-explanatory.
Show me a deck that doesn't want Sol Ring and I'll show you a deck that's been built wrong.
I don't have a decklist for my Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck because I retired it a while back before I started putting stuff online, but I didn't play Sol Ring there because it doesn't produce G or U and I'm very low to the ground. I also have Null Rod and would put the new Collector Ouphe in the deck.
Here are two decks that I already have put on tappedout:
I do like input on deck lists, so if you can justify Sol Ring in either of those decks, lmk. I don't have Sol Ring in Sram because I'm trying to cantrip with Wauras. I also don't play Sol Ring in Child, because I'm actively planning to trigger Child of Alara.
No... it's pretty clearly the tutors. I don't care how good Doubling Season is in your deck; when you can't easily tutor for it every game there is less repetition. This feels pretty self-explanatory.
Well, if Doubling Season wasn't that good, then the super friends player wouldn't tutor for it every time. And then your argument against tutors repetitively tutoring for the same thing each game wouldn't hold. Unless, of course, you still feel like the game is repetitive when a player tutors for different things each game.
I don't know if you're actually going to look through my deck lists and prove me wrong about Sol Ring. But if you do, you'll notice that my Land.dec is heavy in tutors. Rarely do I get the same card again and again so I know tutoring in and of itself doesn't lead to repetitive games. Tutors themselves are not the root causes of repetitiveness. In my lands.dec, having a Planar Cleansing as a commander leads to the repetitive games.
Your argument also doesn't hold because tutoring isn't the only way to end up with the same card each game. What if you see the same card dominate or end multiple games, but it was not tutored for? Even when the card(s) isn't tutored for, you're still going to say that the game was a repeat of the previous, right? For instance, in any game that lasts long enough versus a deck with Black, I can reasonably expect an eventual huge Exsanguinate and/or Torment of Hailfire to end the game. And thus, I play (e.g. plan whom I attack) with that possibility in mind. That isn't caused by tutoring, that's just caused by the card being in the 99.
Even if you play in a game where a player tutored for the same card over and over again, what about all of the actions prior to the tutor being cast? Wouldn't that also mean that the game was essentially the same each time before the tutor as well? How come the game state was the same each time such that the player could/would get the same thing again and again and play the same line again and again? Maybe your games are boring/repetitive because your pod is growing stale or lacks interaction? Maybe the tutor target is so powerful that it doesn't matter what the board state is? I don't think those are issues addressed with the ban of Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, or Imperial Seal.
Essentially, your only argument that tutoring causes repetitive games is that a player can tutor for the same card each game. And you and Carthage refuse to consider that other things can lead to repetitiveness, despite the glaringly obvious counter-argument that the same player who can tutor for the same card each time can also tutor for something else. When someone brings up other reasons why a game can be repetitive, you just repeat, "no, it's the tutors."
I don't really need/want to change your mind, I just want my opinion out there as much as anyone else. But if someone is going to complain about Bribery or list Mastermind's Acquisition just to make a point about the perils of tutors, those people should stay far away from any decisions about the banlist.
If anything, please look through my deck lists and if you feel Sol Ring can actually be justified, let me know.
Really, the cause of repetitiveness with tutors is the opponents, not the pilot. If you are routinely playing the same deck(s), of course the tutor targets are going to be close to the same ever time. The only time I ever see tutoring as a problem is if it’s only used to end the game. There are exceptions to this, but “fair” tutoring is grabbing a tool to help you survive, not to end the game. So, if you are experiencing a high number of games where players are tutoring to win, then that’s a player problem and not a tutor problem. No matter what action gets taken against tutors, you’re going to experience games with players that are just going to do whatever it takes to win.
No doubt tutors reduce variance, but sometimes there is minimal amount of available redundancy in an effect *cough*Doubling Season*cough*, and without the tutor, you’d never be able to play it in the format on a consistent basis. I’d rather tutors exist to ensure obscure strategies can exist.
Personally, I’d rather slam my head against the wall than attempt to persuade those 2 individuals to “see it your way”, but fight on, brother.
Really, the cause of repetitiveness with tutors is the opponents, not the pilot. If you are routinely playing the same deck(s), of course the tutor targets are going to be close to the same ever time. The only time I ever see tutoring as a problem is if it’s only used to end the game. There are exceptions to this, but “fair” tutoring is grabbing a tool to help you survive, not to end the game. So, if you are experiencing a high number of games where players are tutoring to win, then that’s a player problem and not a tutor problem. No matter what action gets taken against tutors, you’re going to experience games with players that are just going to do whatever it takes to win.
No doubt tutors reduce variance, but sometimes there is minimal amount of available redundancy in an effect *cough*Doubling Season*cough*, and without the tutor, you’d never be able to play it in the format on a consistent basis. I’d rather tutors exist to ensure obscure strategies can exist.
Personally, I’d rather slam my head against the wall than attempt to persuade those 2 individuals to “see it your way”, but fight on, brother.
Well, one is impossible to deal with, but Carthage is polite. I'm always fine with having a conversation with someone I disagree with when they aren't a dick.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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Personally I have no issue with tutors, but every now and then I am in a game where the one tutoring has no clue what they want to look for. This is the only time I have a problem. As they (the player) slow down the game. I run all 10 fetches in my deck, and I may end up taking a few seconds deciding which land I want to fetch (based on what I have on board and in hand.) I also run vampiric tutor, demonic tutor and tooth and nail in my deck. Every game I know what I am looking for when I cast these spells.
But still I see "ban tutors" Soni want to know why people wish to ban tutors so often. I want to hear the justifications to ban and not ban tutors.
I can't answer your question, but I'll echo your sentiment. People taking too long is the real problem.
People "don't like" extra-turns. When in all actuality, they do. Taking an extra-turn is one of the most viscerally enjoyable things in MTG.
People "don't like" tutoring. When in all actuality, they do. In EDH, the card you want to play with the most is always available in every game in the command zone. They don't actually want randomness (i.e. see "mana-screw" and "color-screw").
There would be an exemption for cards that literally state you are searching for a specific nonland card, such as how Urborg Panther searches specifically for Spirit of the Night. I know there is at least another cycle like this in Kamigawa block. Nissa Revane searching for Nissa’s Chosen would be okay BUT her ultimate would definitely count her as a tutor.
It does not matter the color of the tutoring card, for example a Jund deck could run Demonic, Vampric, and Diabolic Tutor, but at that point they would be barred from running any fetches.
That being said, best practice is to KNOW YOUR DECK. It is excusable for first runs, deck borrowing, cards like Bribery, and players within their first um... year to not know what is in the deck you are searching. There is casual, but c’mon.
I could care less about them banning tutors in the most general sense. I do think banning fetches, especially cards like Evolving Wilds is overkill and it would hurt the balance greatly of multicolored decks to the point where 4-5 color decks would be almost unplayable.
Why go deeper into the card pool when you have 10 slots devoted to the best tutors available?
They also encourage combos, which are innately overpowered by the format, especially multi-tutors.
It hurts variety in a casual format which makes decks and games go stale earlier than they should.
This is rarely true. Even in my commander focused decks, at every mana cost there is a spell I'd rather have than my commander.
I guess it's "rarely true" just because you say so. "10 tutors" is really pushing it. Can you name all ten of them?
I find that powerful legendary creatures from Commander sets has done more to damage deck variety than tutor cards by far. Demonic Tutor goes into all decks that have black and that has never limited the variety of decks that I see. But Meren merely existing means I see Meren everywhere.
Mystical Tutor, Personal Tutor, Fabricate, Trinket/Trophy/Treasure mages, Muddle the Mixture, Tezzeret the Seeker, Whir of Invention, Merchant Scroll, Spellseeker, Long-Term Plans
Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, Diabolic Tutor, Buried Alive, Rune-scarred Demon, Entomb, Diabolic Intent, Dark Petition, Razaketh, the Foulblooded, Beseech the Queen, Increasing Ambition, Ad Nauseam, Mausoleum Secrets, Tainted Pact, Demonic Consultation, Insidious Dreams, Diabolic Revelation, Mastermind's Acquisition
Gamble, Godo, Bandit Warlord. Imperial Recruiter
Green Sun's Zenith, Worldly Tutor, Chord of Calling, Birthing Pod, Tooth and Nail, Eldritch Evolution, Protean Hulk, Woodland Bellower, Summoner's Pact, Primal Command, Natural Order, Fauna Shaman, Survival of the Fittest, Finale of Devastation, Defense of the Heart, Wild Pair
I got bored before I got to the multicolor ones like Eladamri's Call, but I think I proved the point. There are roughly a bajillion tutors in EDH.
Depending on the colors and how much disposable income one has access to (I see you, Imperial Seal), it's pretty easy to end up running maybe a dozen tutors. Even if one tries to avoid the "broken" tutors, there are still the "not-good-enough-for-cEDH-but-still-pretty-powerful" tutors like T&N and Diabolic Revelation that can end up warping more casual metas when every game ends with double-tutoring for a combo or something.
Perhaps if you count narrow tutors like Trinket mage and pals, or the harbingers, things like that, then hitting ten is easier, but those are narrow enough to not cause the same issues as the universal tutors. The ones that search for a broader category like Worldy etc are closer to the universal tutors in this regard. On the opposite end of the scale, Defense of the Heart, PHulk, and T&N aren't just tutors, they're self contained combos that grab multiple cards directly to play (typically grabbing an instant win combo). There's more of an issue with the total package there than the fact that they tutor, and yet when not grabbing combo they are perfectly fine (sidebar anecdote incoming: I just played a game on mtgo yesterday in which a guy running Ezuri flash hulked turn 2 and we were all ready to be upsetty until he just grabbed a bunch of mana dorks and creatures that grab lands because he didn't run any combos besides the flash hulk itself. It put him way ahead on mana but he lacked the draw to leverage it and we all lost turn 6 to grind clock Duskmantle Guildmage combo).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
You listed many, many options. And some aren't even worth playing. I love Diabolic Revelation. Honestly, why would anyone bring that up as a problem?
And, if someone wants to play Wild Pair or Thalia's Lancers? What do you have against them?
I'm also sure that my question was facetious. I can count to ten and use gatherer as well + not many or any good decks will waste 10 slots on a pure tutors. Using gatherer or edhrec to stuff your deck full of tutors will not build a good deck.
Also, many of the tutors you list also support weaker decks. There's also a case to be made that tutoring allows weaker decks to compete with stronger decks. and once again, where you might see T&N as a problem card in casual, I see T&N as the epitome of being a Timmy in EDH. Doing powerful things is fun.
Competitive edh decks run TONS of tutors
Here's a sample of the tutors that are run in a teferi cedh deck, which is mono blue so they don't even go into other colors:
intuition
muddle the mixture
mystical tutor
whir of invention
spellseeker
trinket mage
fabricate
merchant scroll
reshape
transmute artifact
tezzeret the seeker
inventor's fair
This is not out of place at all for more competitive decks.
Yes, competitive decks, which is why the core of your argument that "It hurts variety in a casual format which makes decks and games go stale earlier than they should" is bull. cEDH doesn't count when discussing casual, just like Modern tournament diversity doesn't count when discussing 60 card casual. When playing at the highest levels, decks streamline and the number of viable decks inevitably decreases. And more importantly, its not something that defines the casual meta. lack of diversity and variance in cEDH does nothing to casual games. Even trying to argue about it as a problem is foolish. cEDH is a Spike meta. Its for people who want to challenge their skill with the best decks against the best decks. Yeah, competitive Teferi is going to have more tutors than a casual deck and play with far less variance than a casual deck, because that's the play experience cEDH players WANT. If you're arguing that its a problem, you're arguing that they shouldn't play the way they like. If you're arguing that its harming casual, you've got nothing to back it up.
Most of those cards from that list, for instance, aren't going to be issues outside of cEDH where they are searching up combos in a streamlined list as soon as possible. Is Trinket Mage typically a problem? How often does Transmute Artifact pop up outside of tuned lists? How about Muddle the Mixture, is that causing tons of problems when it pops up?
The biggest issue with this argument is that I can see where people are coming form when they say we should ban the fast universal tutors. Demonic, Vampirirc, and Imperial Seal are cheap, have little to no opportunity cost (2 life is negligible), and do the most to streamline even casual decks. But tutors exist on a continuum, two actually, from universal to highly specific, and from efficient to crap. Demonic is both highly efficient and universal, Urborg Panther is both extremely narrow and extremely crap. In between there is a wide variety of tutors, and you have to draw the line somewhere on where they become problematic. No reasonable person should argue that Rampant Growth or Muddle the Mixture are hurting the format, just as no reasonable person can argue that Demonic Tutor doesn't have an impact on variance. I disagree that the tutors should be banned, but I concede there are issues with Demonic, Vampiric, and Imperial Seal and can understand the argument for banning them despite disagreeing with it. Once you get to something like Diabolic Tutor I start doubting the relevance of your opinion, because Diabolic Tutor is not a good card and a sure sign that the pilot is working on a tight budget at best. When someone starts bringing up absolute garbage like Tainted Pact or Insidious Dreams, I have stifle laughter.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Your point is that tutors hurt deck diversity but that's not the case.
Look at the tutors that you listed. Examples like Reshape and Transmute Artifact are very theme specific. In order to run those, you have to skew your deck heavily towards artifacts. I don't see all cEDH being heavily artifact themed. So in a way, those tutors let many types of decks exist. Just like how enchantment tutors can encourage people to build around enchantments and those land tutors encourage people to build lands matter decks.
And many of the cards you mentioned aren't pure tutors. They are only even run because they can function multiple roles in the deck at the same time. +10 tutors in a deck is a lot of air. And like I said, if you want to build a good deck, it's tough to play that much air. You might start every decklist as 1 Sol Ring and 10 tutors, but that is lazy deck building.
I have 3 decks without Sol Ring and I'm sure that I built them in optimal ways. In the same way, I never felt compelled to include tutors just to have them. I feel much move compelled to include things like Doubling Season, you know, cards that actually do things.
Competitive decks run a small number of game winning cards, and then a lot of ways to get those game winning cards. Your example of doubling season is actually not a particularly strong competitive play, because for the same mana cost someone might cast ad nauseum or final parting for worldgorger + reanimate and win the game immediately.
And while it is possible for optimal lists to not include sol ring, that list is VERY small, and those decks are extremely optimized. I would wager that all three of the decks you think are optimal without sol ring should actually be running sol ring.
But all of this is separate from the actual topic at hand, which is why ban tutors.
The main reason continues to be that tutors have best targets in most situations, and time and time again people will keep going for the same lines of play instead of adapting to new sets of cards in their hand.
How come your arguments/posts center around cEDH or competitive? Let's not discuss the banlist exclusively under the umbrella of cEDH. First, cEDH is a nebulous term. Second, cEDH doesn't have a separate banlist apart from actual EDH. If you're going to dismiss every 5 cmc card, just because it's not good enough to stack up again Ad Naus, then what's the point of complaining about Bribery?
Your main complaint against tutors (repetitiveness) happens have with or without tutors. Because the root causes of repetitiveness aren't tutors.
For instance, let's consider Doubling Season. If someone tutors for that card every single game in their super friend deck, is the tutor the issue or is Doubling Season? Maybe the repetitive search for Doubling Season is because that card is so far and above every other card in the deck.
Doubling Season and PW decks are also interesting in the consideration of repetitiveness because many would argue that it's a very repetitive archetype. Even non-green PW decks play out essentially the same. They're all stacks of removal, wrath's, and fogs. So redundant effects are why they're repetitive, not the Demonic Tutor for Doubling Season.
And let's face it, people actually want their decks to function/play out the same each game. That's why people play redundant effects, consistent mana, and build around their generals. You don't want repetitiveness, but you fail to address the elephant in the room, generals and building around them make decks play out very consistently.
If you have ever play tested competitively, you'll no doubt realize that many match-ups are predictable. That's just what happens when you run the same 75 vs the other same 75. Games being fun and non-repetitive in EDH owe a lot to how decks interact in unpredictable ways in multiplayer pods. I can build a Brago deck to be consistent and do the same things, but when I bring it to a different pod, the games will play out differently whether I tutor or not (and I do use Recruiter of the Guard to get many different creatures each game). That should be primary source of games being fresh and new. Games don't just become fresh and new because you are ban happy.
Here are some factors that play into repetitiveness more so than tutors:
1.) The strength of new threats they print is very high and many players will gravitate towards those same threats. I wished WOTC would stop printing for EDH.
2.) Many of those new strong cards are legendary creatures. I personally don't like playing against 3-4 Merens at every store, but it seems like other people do. Once again, players will flock to strong threats and when they are commanders, its effect is even more potent on you seeing the same stuff each game.
3.) With the release of each set, more redundant effects are available and find their ways into decks.
4.) EDHREC and commander content means a lot of people hear/see/become influenced the same things.
5.) Generous mulligan rules. You'll see this has had a huge impact in sanctioned magic as well. This is literally a rule that makes games play out more the same each time.
6.) It has become socially unacceptable to impact the game such that players have anything other than their ideal board-state. You even have huge cry-babies that whine when you remove their Consecrated Sphinx. Apparently, it's even frowned upon to play Torpor Orb because it's "stax." Players actively expect all of their resources to remain intact for an entire game. Well, if you can always plan to have all of your colors and play ahead on curve, then of course games will play out the same each time.
I don't have a decklist for my Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck because I retired it a while back before I started putting stuff online, but I didn't play Sol Ring there because it doesn't produce G or U and I'm very low to the ground. I also have Null Rod and would put the new Collector Ouphe in the deck.
Here are two decks that I already have put on tappedout:
I do like input on deck lists, so if you can justify Sol Ring in either of those decks, lmk. I don't have Sol Ring in Sram because I'm trying to cantrip with Wauras. I also don't play Sol Ring in Child, because I'm actively planning to trigger Child of Alara.
Well, if Doubling Season wasn't that good, then the super friends player wouldn't tutor for it every time. And then your argument against tutors repetitively tutoring for the same thing each game wouldn't hold. Unless, of course, you still feel like the game is repetitive when a player tutors for different things each game.
I don't know if you're actually going to look through my deck lists and prove me wrong about Sol Ring. But if you do, you'll notice that my Land.dec is heavy in tutors. Rarely do I get the same card again and again so I know tutoring in and of itself doesn't lead to repetitive games. Tutors themselves are not the root causes of repetitiveness. In my lands.dec, having a Planar Cleansing as a commander leads to the repetitive games.
Your argument also doesn't hold because tutoring isn't the only way to end up with the same card each game. What if you see the same card dominate or end multiple games, but it was not tutored for? Even when the card(s) isn't tutored for, you're still going to say that the game was a repeat of the previous, right? For instance, in any game that lasts long enough versus a deck with Black, I can reasonably expect an eventual huge Exsanguinate and/or Torment of Hailfire to end the game. And thus, I play (e.g. plan whom I attack) with that possibility in mind. That isn't caused by tutoring, that's just caused by the card being in the 99.
Even if you play in a game where a player tutored for the same card over and over again, what about all of the actions prior to the tutor being cast? Wouldn't that also mean that the game was essentially the same each time before the tutor as well? How come the game state was the same each time such that the player could/would get the same thing again and again and play the same line again and again? Maybe your games are boring/repetitive because your pod is growing stale or lacks interaction? Maybe the tutor target is so powerful that it doesn't matter what the board state is? I don't think those are issues addressed with the ban of Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, or Imperial Seal.
Essentially, your only argument that tutoring causes repetitive games is that a player can tutor for the same card each game. And you and Carthage refuse to consider that other things can lead to repetitiveness, despite the glaringly obvious counter-argument that the same player who can tutor for the same card each time can also tutor for something else. When someone brings up other reasons why a game can be repetitive, you just repeat, "no, it's the tutors."
I don't really need/want to change your mind, I just want my opinion out there as much as anyone else. But if someone is going to complain about Bribery or list Mastermind's Acquisition just to make a point about the perils of tutors, those people should stay far away from any decisions about the banlist.
If anything, please look through my deck lists and if you feel Sol Ring can actually be justified, let me know.
No doubt tutors reduce variance, but sometimes there is minimal amount of available redundancy in an effect *cough*Doubling Season*cough*, and without the tutor, you’d never be able to play it in the format on a consistent basis. I’d rather tutors exist to ensure obscure strategies can exist.
Personally, I’d rather slam my head against the wall than attempt to persuade those 2 individuals to “see it your way”, but fight on, brother.
Well, one is impossible to deal with, but Carthage is polite. I'm always fine with having a conversation with someone I disagree with when they aren't a dick.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!