MTG Salvation

Is it just me, or is Yarok, the Desecrated broken?
The Yarok player functionally gets two turns for each turn their opponents get. If you get an ETB, they get FOUR with Faerie Artisans. How can any fair deck possibly out-resource the Yarok player? Panharmonicon out of the command zone is oppressive and unfair.
Thoughts?

EDIT: Not to mention the brokenness of Venser, Shaper Savant, which saves anything from removal and eventually sets up a Capsize lock for cheaper all by itself.

Quote from FetalTadpole »

How can any fair deck possibly out-resource the Yarok player? Panharmonicon out of the command zone is oppressive and unfair.
Thoughts?

Torpor Orb, Hushwing Gryff, Tocatli Honor Guard, Ob Nixilis, Unshackled, Aven Mindcensor, and Humility all do a pretty good job of hampering Yarok's main strategy.
Also, countering or killing their commander helps a ton - Yarok is great, and it's definitely a kill-on-sight commander.

Quote from FetalTadpole »

If you get an ETB, they get FOUR with Faerie Artisans.

Phage the Untouchable answers that in a most amusing way.

So either stuff all my decks with stax cards, or play terrible cards like Phage, just to compete against a single deck?

At some point, if a deck is really "taking over" your games, you need to account for it. While I don't think Phage was really a serious suggestion (it only works against the Artisans anyway) the others are still good cards. I have a tough time fighting through Torpor Orb effects with some of my decks because there are a lot of ETB effects in EDH. As long as you are not hampered too much by them, they are generally good includes in general and they really shut down Yarok.

"Run more removal" isn't necessarily the definitive answer for things, but "run some good removal" can be. Now, since we don't know your deck, we don't know what you are doing now, but adding more quality removal can be helpful.

At the end of the day, Yarok will end up running away with games and Yarok will also end up just faltering and doing nothing. It really depends on what you are trying to do during this to determine which scenario occurs more often. It is certainly possible that even with adding the cards above and increasing removal that Yarok is still too much. At which point you may just have to ask your friend not to play the deck or you might have to come up with a completely different deck. It is not at all ideal and nothing may change of course, but that is for you and your friend to figure out.

Yeah, Phage was a joke. The others are serious, though. Either remove Yarok or answer his ability.

What deck(s) do you play? Do you run cheap, instant-speed removal like Swords to Plowshares and Reality Shift? How much mass removal do you run? How much theft? Yarok only helps your opponent if he stays on his side of the battlefield.

Nothing is unanswerable.

I play nine different decks and all of them have problems with Yarok. For example I have a Saffi Eriksdotter combo deck full of spot removal but I can't run the anti-ETB cards because I depend on ETBs myself. It's easy to say "Oh just run answers" when for 4 mana (Venser) the Yarok player can repeatedly answer your answers. Eventually the Yarok player gets out Panharmonicon so that's two things that demand an answer, in a deck that runs blue packed with counterspells.

Yeah the Yarok player has two or three opponents, but they get two or three turns for each turn their opponents get. It focuses the game to be entirely about keeping Yarok off the field. Last I checked that's ban criteria.

Quote from FetalTadpole »

I play nine different decks and all of them have problems with Yarok. For example I have a Saffi Eriksdotter combo deck full of spot removal but I can't run the anti-ETB cards because I depend on ETBs myself. It's easy to say "Oh just run answers" when for 4 mana (Venser) the Yarok player can repeatedly answer your answers. Eventually the Yarok player gets out Panharmonicon so that's two things that demand an answer, in a deck that runs blue packed with counterspells.

Yeah the Yarok player has two or three opponents, but they get two or three turns for each turn their opponents get. It focuses the game to be entirely about keeping Yarok off the field. Last I checked that's ban criteria.

So you're playing Saffi, a combo deck with a combo piece in the command zone and you're having a problem with Yarok (a Panharmonicon in the command zone)?

How come you view one as an issue and not the other? It really just seems to me that you don't like or can't/won't accept losing games.

Yes, it's easy for others to say you should run removal because Yarok is a 5-cmc that generates ZERO value on his own. If a player can loop Venser over and over for 4 mana each time, that also doesn't really seem impressive either. That's a 4-cmc counterspell that isn't even an actual counter. It bounces back to your hand and you can just target Yarok again.

As with most Commander centric decks KILL IT. Make it cost 20 mana, get others to notice, and have them KILL IT.

It they are packed with counterspells, they dont have good cards of their own to double ETB. Stop putting down ETB bombs. Board wipe and spot remove key pieces.

Yes its a good Commander, no it won't get banned. Take some of the advise here and adapt.

Quote from FetalTadpole »

I play nine different decks and all of them have problems with Yarok. For example I have a Saffi Eriksdotter combo deck full of spot removal but I can't run the anti-ETB cards because I depend on ETBs myself. It's easy to say "Oh just run answers" when for 4 mana (Venser) the Yarok player can repeatedly answer your answers. Eventually the Yarok player gets out Panharmonicon so that's two things that demand an answer, in a deck that runs blue packed with counterspells.

Yeah the Yarok player has two or three opponents, but they get two or three turns for each turn their opponents get. It focuses the game to be entirely about keeping Yarok off the field. Last I checked that's ban criteria.

Combo decks should run all over yarok decks.

One removal spell and yarok is substantially set back, two removal spells and he's nearly uncastable. Then they have a lot of value cards that can't possibly race combo.

Quote from FetalTadpole »

The Yarok player functionally gets two turns for each turn their opponents get.

I'm sorry, what? A Panharmonicon effect is nothing like an extra turn.

Quote from FetalTadpole »

Panharmonicon out of the command zone is oppressive and unfair.

We've already had that for wizards in Naban, Dean of Iteration and Inalla, Archmage Ritualist, not to mention the Necro-monicon in Teysa Karlov. I don't see your crying to get them banned. Naban and Inalla even work with the Venser you're so worked up about.

You can also just play Nevermore effects. But I agree with the rest of table here, it is manageable if obnoxious.

Had another Yarok game yesterday and it was miserable. Nobody had removal the instant the Yarok player cast his commander, so he proceeded to ramp for free with Lotus Cobra, making it pointless to kill Yarok as he had so much mana it wouldn't even matter if he had to cast it again. I eventually scooped in frustration and left the store. I was playing Surrak Dragonclaw all creatures, so no way to deal with Yarok without giving him four ETB triggers. Another player was playing Simic, no board wipes there, even if he overloaded Cyclonic Rift the Yarok player had so much mana he'd just recast his hand giving him even more value with the double ETBs. The Yarok player takes two turns for every turn their opponents get, Yarok doubles every card in the deck.

I have a personal vendetta against Yarok now, and will go after anyone playing him until one of us is dead or he is banned.

Quote from FetalTadpole »

Had another Yarok game yesterday and it was miserable. Nobody had removal the instant the Yarok player cast his commander, so he proceeded to ramp for free with Lotus Cobra, making it pointless to kill Yarok as he had so much mana it wouldn't even matter if he had to cast it again. I eventually scooped in frustration and left the store. I was playing Surrak Dragonclaw all creatures, so no way to deal with Yarok without giving him four ETB triggers. Another player was playing Simic, no board wipes there, even if he overloaded Cyclonic Rift the Yarok player had so much mana he'd just recast his hand giving him even more value with the double ETBs. The Yarok player takes two turns for every turn their opponents get, Yarok doubles every card in the deck.

I have a personal vendetta against Yarok now, and will go after anyone playing him until one of us is dead or he is banned.

At least now you know how to deal with Yarok.

fwiw, It's still worth it to remove Yarok even when the player has a lot of mana because it makes it tougher to have mana to cast Yarok + something else on the same turn.

If you don't play removal for creatures, don't be surprised when a commander-centric deck takes over. In EDH, you always have +1 card available due to command zone. If you play blue at all, you can always steal opposing commanders. For commander-centric decks, it can be crippling. So trade for a Gilded Drake.

Since you have a personal vendetta against Yarok, will you finally play Torpor Orb now? Say what you want against "stax" effects...but here's a solution...

Quote from FetalTadpole »

Had another Yarok game yesterday and it was miserable. Nobody had removal the instant the Yarok player cast his commander, so he proceeded to ramp for free with Lotus Cobra, making it pointless to kill Yarok as he had so much mana it wouldn't even matter if he had to cast it again.

You seem to misunderstand how Lotus Cobra works. When a land enters under the Cobra player's control, that player adds a mana to their mana pool (two mana, in the case of Yarok). Mana in your mana pool empties at the end of each step and each phase of each turn. As soon as the Yarok player moves to the next part of their turn, any mana they got from the Cobra that they didn't already use ceases to exist.

Lands produce mana (generally). Mana is not lands.

Quote from FetalTadpole »

I was playing Surrak Dragonclaw all creatures, so no way to deal with Yarok without giving him four ETB triggers.

What? Yarok only doubles triggers, and only the triggers of permanents he controls. For most boardstates, you playing a creature won't give the Yarok player anything.

Quote from FetalTadpole »

The Yarok player takes two turns for every turn their opponents get

Once again, that's not how Yarok works.

Quote from Lithl »

Quote from FetalTadpole »

Had another Yarok game yesterday and it was miserable. Nobody had removal the instant the Yarok player cast his commander, so he proceeded to ramp for free with Lotus Cobra, making it pointless to kill Yarok as he had so much mana it wouldn't even matter if he had to cast it again.

You seem to misunderstand how Lotus Cobra works. When a land enters under the Cobra player's control, that player adds a mana to their mana pool (two mana, in the case of Yarok). Mana in your mana pool empties at the end of each step and each phase of each turn. As soon as the Yarok player moves to the next part of their turn, any mana they got from the Cobra that they didn't already use ceases to exist.

Lands produce mana (generally). Mana is not lands.

Quote from FetalTadpole »

I was playing Surrak Dragonclaw all creatures, so no way to deal with Yarok without giving him four ETB triggers.

What? Yarok only doubles triggers, and only the triggers of permanents he controls. For most boardstates, you playing a creature won't give the Yarok player anything.

Quote from FetalTadpole »

The Yarok player takes two turns for every turn their opponents get

Once again, that's not how Yarok works.

1. Lotus Cobra + Yarok makes most ramp spells free or negative mana. They play Explosive Vegetation, they gain 4 mana from the lands ETB so the ramp spell was free. This is what I mean by "ramp for free."

2. Faerie Artisans

3. All their cards are double. If I play a Wood Elves I get half as much value from it as the Yarok player does for playing the same card. If we play the exact same cards, he will outresource me by at LEAST double. He might as well be taking two turns for each of mine.

Quote from FetalTadpole »

How can any fair deck possibly out-resource the Yarok player?

By removing the commander. Also, by preventing ETB-effects
Sure, yarok has some rather degenerate way to out-resource your opponents. Then again, so do many other popular generals.
Is he broken? Depends on what you mean by that. But there are plenty of 'broken' commanders in EDH, including the ones I listed. So no, he's not exceptionally powerful.

I ran into a Yarok deck for the first time yesterday. Yes, it was powerful, but no moreso than any number of decks I faced yesterday. It ended up not winning, with, of all things. a Grunn the Lonely King big stompy deck piloted by a guy who has only been playing Commander for a couple of weeks crunching into Yarok's player for a disgusting amount of trample damage.