The long story short, this thread was inspired by a discussion I had with a friend three years ago if bribery and bribery like cards should be legal. Here is the short and sweet version I was salty after he Briberied my Blighsteel then equipped Boots or Greaves, before swing to kill.
Admittedly the following is true
1) If I didn’t have a Blighsteel he couldn’t bribed it
2) Killing me exiled said Blightsteel
The closest comparison point admittedly here is Tinker, but the difference is tinker can admittedly be built around. And while existence of cards like bribery do not stop me from putting thing like Blightsteel certain decks no more than clones stop me from playing it.
But I feels more than a tad awful. Sense unless I am in blue (or a semi niche answer or otherwise in other colors), or Homeward Path I don’t have much in a way to play around in-game. To reiterate I understand in-game solutions (Homeward Path, Flickers like Sojorner, various enchantments grant player hexproof, alongside counter spells. Or just plain removing the card via other means).
What stood out to me in that convo, I was told “Well if you don’t want to be bribed, you shouldn’t play good cards like Blightsteel”. I would be lying if I didn’t try taking Blighsteel or not put other single high powered creatures that could end game in a non-combo manner and played more 4-6 mana standard midrange creatures, out of certain decks. But found I needed cards like Blightsteel and had to accept briberied being a thing. And I often find that exact answer often parroted, when someone complains about a card being briberied (or complaining about card that was bribed and told “you shouldn’t play [good] cards like [x] and you wouldn’t be bribed for them).
The extension of the argument cards like bribery are only as powerful as the table they sit across from. Or more accurately it’s only as powerful as the strongest individual card power level in any given pod. And an ubiquitous existence of this card in a meta will definitely nudged players away from player cool “8+ mana win condition combat creatures” and into more combo-esque decks with interchangeable pieces that needs more than a piece to win on its own and eschewing one card “value/finisher” creatures. (Or admittedly playing them anyways, and add stuff like Homeward Path).
Ultimately I am not favor of bribery in the format, and while a ban of bribery and various similar cards is unlikely. A ban of bribery, I think would make a statement of those kinds of cards AND in my opinion discredit or provide ammoniation against the anti-Timmy argument of “you shouldn’t play those cards if you don’t want them bribed against you”.
I say anti-Timmy because Timmy’s exactly the players who are one enjoy playing these win condition big stompy creatures like Blightsteel and to some extent the ability to play said cards be it blighsteel or other overly big win conditon on a stick is the purpose of the format.
I don't think you should play any card you would not want played against you. Why do you feel good cards you like to play should not come out against you?
If I am mistaken in your position, please let me know.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Kinda? More accurately the mindset of telling someone that as a defense of a card in a format meant to enabling the play of big stompy things like Blighsteel. The defense of bribery being “bribery wouldn’t be good if you didn’t run good creatures”. When running good creatures in this context generally means single high value stompy creatures like Blightsteel or absurd utility like Prophet and PrimeTime. It’s not good cards/creatures I play being played against me, it’s the mindset I find people used to defend bribery (don’t run good creatures/cards, and “oh it’s only as card as the table (meaning the individual power level of individual cards within a deck not the power level of the decks being played themselves). Both disingenuous for kind of environment commander/edh is meant to have.
I've played my fair share of goodstuff decks and I have nothing against anyone who wants to build something of the sort.
However, you just gotta have some kind of plan for a Bribery and a Knowledge Exploitation targeting you. And if the opponent knows that you are playing a goodstuff deck, they are more likely to target you because you are more likely to have something relevant to the current situation.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I've played my fair share of goodstuff decks and I have nothing against anyone who wants to build something of the sort.
However, you just gotta have some kind of plan for a Bribery and a Knowledge Exploitation targeting you. And if the opponent knows that you are playing a goodstuff deck, they are more likely to target you because you are more likely to have something relevant to the current situation.
Which I have talked about already in my first post above. I know there are answers (Homeward Path for one). But telling someone “they shouldn’t build an EDH deck filled with stompy things so they don’t get briberied” is actively against the spirit of the format. Which is why I am posting this thread.
And for the reanimate strategy is distinctly different from telling someone “they cannot/shouldn’t play x which format design to enable you to play because it could cheated out on you by your opponent”.
I've played my fair share of goodstuff decks and I have nothing against anyone who wants to build something of the sort.
However, you just gotta have some kind of plan for a Bribery and a Knowledge Exploitation targeting you. And if the opponent knows that you are playing a goodstuff deck, they are more likely to target you because you are more likely to have something relevant to the current situation.
Which I have talked about already in my first post above. I know there are answers (Homeward Path for one). But telling someone “they shouldn’t build an EDH deck filled with stompy things so they don’t get briberied” is actively against the spirit of the format. Which is why I am posting this thread.
And for the reanimate strategy is distinctly different from telling someone “they cannot/shouldn’t play x which format design to enable you to play because it could cheated out on you by your opponent”.
Nah, not really. Not running such creatures is a way to avoid bribery, but when someone says something like "if you don't want to get your blightsteel taken by bribery, don't run blightsteel" they are also implicitly saying "if you want to run blightsteel, be prepared to see it grabbed by bribery effects." Basically, if you want to run big, stompy, game winning fatties, don't complain when someone else steals them. You've already decided that it's ok to run those creatures so you have no room to complain when they get used against you. Is it a bit of a feel bad to get killed by your own blightsteel? Of course, but no more than it's a feel bad to get killed by someone else's. Heck, it's a feel bad to get your wincon creature exiled by STP as well. These are pretty low level feel bad that are impossible to remove from the game without ruining the game. This isn't a case of locking people out or pulling off a cheesy combo or just targeting on person, it's just a player not having something go well for them, which is going to happen at some point to all but one player at most in any game.
What's actively against the spirit of the format is the attitude that you should be able to run what you want without your opponents being able to take advantage of that in any way. Bribery is as much an EDH card as blightsteel, a fun splashy card that only gets to shine in this format. You think it's fun to run blightsteel, they think it's fun to use bribery to grab it from your deck. If that is really so problematic for you, then you should cut blightsteel because that prevents it, otherwise stop complaining and deal with the fact that it gets stolen sometimes. You know that in addition to counter magic there are other options for dealing with that. You can exile blightsteel, you can hit it with an aura that prevents it from attacking, you can steal it back, etc. If someone manages to stick boots on it oh well, too bad, they got a 2 card combo that needed a card from your deck to work. If that's something they are gunning for every game, taking out blightsteel would be worth it for the look on their face when it's not there, while if it's just something that happens occasionally oh well, sometimes you don't win. You should run some artifact removal to deal with the boot up anyway, it's an equipment that shouldn't be allowed to stick. Throw in homeward path and some tutors for it to turn their bribery in your favor. Through in brand if your red. Through in that mass path to exile spell from Ixalan that exiles all attackers. Use mass sacrifice spells.
Btw, blightsteel is more problematic than bribery, it's a cheesy one hit kill. Its not banworthy, but it checks more boxes than bribery. It's a classic centralizing card whose existence in a game results in it being fought over, it's just not prevelant enough to spur people to run steal effects just to get it. If you consistently include it in your decks, you'll sleep your meta into running more steal effects as it's such a juicy target. That's a problem caused by blightsteel. What you are doing is complaining that the other players want a chance to benefit from you running such a swingy card that can end them out of nowhere. You should also consider that if blightsteel gets hit with bribery and thrown directly at your face rather than used to take out the table first, then perhaps your opponents don't like playing against blightsteel and using it only to take you out as a way to remove it from the game (and send you a message, which they also sent by literally telling you to stop running it). People don't like getting one hit killed by a surprise blightsteel, as you seem to be figuring out.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It’s also in a deck that has no real ramp/very little ramp. Only 1 haste outlet and secondly, it’s a perfectly valid target to steal my blighsteel with various effects I never said it wasn’t. But I was also playing a deck which whole theme was partly big stompy collossai (now big colourless creatures).
And secondly, regardless of if I was running Blightsteel or not (which is the point of EDH partly to run big stompy things), what isn’t in favor is tell players “don’t play big dumb stompy archtype because it could be taken from deck and used against you”.
Like I am hearing “Well if you don’t want to be bribed don’t run Blighsteel” but actually reading “don’t run big stompy win condition cards like Blighsteel (Worldspine Wurm, various Eldrazi, the Praetors, the many Collossai etc) Because they could be bribery.
That isn’t a mindset and espacially when someone main reason for a card like bribery is simply to make the point “you shouldn’t big stompy” instead claim “you should *****ty cards that are synergetistically a win condition but useless on their lonesome”. Your focusing on the mechanical aspect, like why shouldn’t I play a card because it’s being bribed?
You guys keep trying to focus on “Well your salty you got blighsteeled/why should you be angry got killed by a card you were playing when you were one playing it”. To just reemphasis, I am not salty about being killed by own blighsteel.
If I play a card like blighsteel, I fine with playing against a Blighsteel (which is also why I don’t play Sol Ring. I am not fine playing against Sol Ring so I won’t in my EDH decks). And let’s take apart what you said, “Run answers” you know like I said in the OP, “I know Homeward Path and more exist”.
It’s not an issue of a card I am running being used against me there are 1001 answers to that. It’s the issue of being told “Well if you didn’t run (Big Stompy/Individual Powerful Cards not requiring Synergstic Themetic connection to work) you wouldn’t be bribed”.
You see no issue with that statement and the ideology of someone who would genuine believe that and try to push that as the way someone should play EDH?
You see no issue with that statement and the ideology of someone who would genuine believe that and try to push that as the way someone should play EDH?
I don't see that as an issue, because I honestly don't think that is what is being said. I think you have misinterpreted what other people are saying, because your point may not be clear to them. It certainly wasnt to me.
I don't think people are playing Bribery to punish you, I think they are playing it because its a low cost way to get out a huge creature. I think they are justifying that saying you should be able to answer threats you have in your deck, because it seemed like you were saying they shouldn't get your cool thing for less than what is costs mana-wise.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I don't particularly like bribery, because the card ranges from banworthy to useless depending not on your own deckbuilding ability, but on the random chance of what your opponents are playing.
Would bribery be legal if you could search your own deck? Almost certainly not. The card would be broken, letting you cheat out any creature for 5 mana that's in your deck.
So if your opponents have the creature you would search out in their decks, you are playing a card that would never be allowed in the format.
It's like a sideboard card that hates against part of what makes edh fun.
Not a fan, wouldn't mind seeing it gone, but that list of cards is pretty big nowadays.
It’s also in a deck that has no real ramp/very little ramp. Only 1 haste outlet and secondly, it’s a perfectly valid target to steal my blighsteel with various effects I never said it wasn’t. But I was also playing a deck which whole theme was partly big stompy collossai (now big colourless creatures).
And secondly, regardless of if I was running Blightsteel or not (which is the point of EDH partly to run big stompy things), what isn’t in favor is tell players “don’t play big dumb stompy archtype because it could be taken from deck and used against you”.
Like I am hearing “Well if you don’t want to be bribed don’t run Blighsteel” but actually reading “don’t run big stompy win condition cards like Blighsteel (Worldspine Wurm, various Eldrazi, the Praetors, the many Collossai etc) Because they could be bribery.
That isn’t a mindset and espacially when someone main reason for a card like bribery is simply to make the point “you shouldn’t big stompy” instead claim “you should *****ty cards that are synergetistically a win condition but useless on their lonesome”. Your focusing on the mechanical aspect, like why shouldn’t I play a card because it’s being bribed?
You guys keep trying to focus on “Well your salty you got blighsteeled/why should you be angry got killed by a card you were playing when you were one playing it”. To just reemphasis, I am not salty about being killed by own blighsteel.
If I play a card like blighsteel, I fine with playing against a Blighsteel (which is also why I don’t play Sol Ring. I am not fine playing against Sol Ring so I won’t in my EDH decks). And let’s take apart what you said, “Run answers” you know like I said in the OP, “I know Homeward Path and more exist”.
It’s not an issue of a card I am running being used against me there are 1001 answers to that. It’s the issue of being told “Well if you didn’t run (Big Stompy/Individual Powerful Cards not requiring Synergstic Themetic connection to work) you wouldn’t be bribed”.
You see no issue with that statement and the ideology of someone who would genuine believe that and try to push that as the way someone should play EDH?
Like I said, the other half of "if you don't want it to be stolen with bribery, don't run it" is "If you run it, expect it to be a bribery target." Nobody is telling you not to run Blightsteel, they are telling you to accept that running blightsteel means you have a great bribery target in your library. You admit in your first post that this thread exists because you were salty that someone killed you with your own blightsteel. Did you complain about it? Were you obviously upset? If it seemed like you were being overly salty about it, then I could see your opponents telling you not to run Blightsteel if you don't want that to happen again. You of course don't have to take their advice, but if you continue to run it you should just accept that it may get stolen. Steal effects are just part of the game, and healthy for it.
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I don't particularly like bribery, because the card ranges from banworthy to useless depending not on your own deckbuilding ability, but on the random chance of what your opponents are playing.
Would bribery be legal if you could search your own deck? Almost certainly not. The card would be broken, letting you cheat out any creature for 5 mana that's in your deck.
So if your opponents have the creature you would search out in their decks, you are playing a card that would never be allowed in the format.
It's like a sideboard card that hates against part of what makes edh fun.
Not a fan, wouldn't mind seeing it gone, but that list of cards is pretty big nowadays.
"What if" none of your opponents play any creatures? Would Bribery be ban worthy?
You being upset about the variance of Bribery is the entire point of the card. It being 100% awesome or 0% sucks and everything in between is a feature of the card, not a bug.
Bribery only searches your opponents deck and that is a huge difference. Even if you're playing a mirror-match, you still don't know what's in your opponents' hands and what's left in their libraries?
There's also the HUGE drawback of your opponents being able to answer the creature with a bounce spell. Then you essentially spent 5 mana and tutored a creature for your opponent....yeah, the feel bads for Bribery can run both ways.
I don't particularly like bribery, because the card ranges from banworthy to useless depending not on your own deckbuilding ability, but on the random chance of what your opponents are playing.
Would bribery be legal if you could search your own deck? Almost certainly not. The card would be broken, letting you cheat out any creature for 5 mana that's in your deck.
So if your opponents have the creature you would search out in their decks, you are playing a card that would never be allowed in the format.
It's like a sideboard card that hates against part of what makes edh fun.
Not a fan, wouldn't mind seeing it gone, but that list of cards is pretty big nowadays.
"What if" none of your opponents play any creatures? Would Bribery be ban worthy?
You being upset about the variance of Bribery is the entire point of the card. It being 100% awesome or 0% sucks and everything in between is a feature of the card, not a bug.
Bribery only searches your opponents deck and that is a huge difference. Even if you're playing a mirror-match, you still don't know what's in your opponents' hands and what's left in their libraries?
There's also the HUGE drawback of your opponents being able to answer the creature with a bounce spell. Then you essentially spent 5 mana and tutored a creature for your opponent....yeah, the feel bads for Bribery can run both ways.
This is the same issue as every other sideboard card. Cards that are broken or bad depending on what your opponent sleeved up are bad for the game. Are you a better player because you put boil in your deck and your opponents happened to be blue? What about the next game when you are sitting with the same card dead in your hand against 3 non-blue decks? It's not good for the game at all. Nothing but feel bad situations.
This is the same issue as every other sideboard card. Cards that are broken or bad depending on what your opponent sleeved up are bad for the game. Are you a better player because you put boil in your deck and your opponents happened to be blue? What about the next game when you are sitting with the same card dead in your hand against 3 non-blue decks? It's not good for the game at all. Nothing but feel bad situations.
I know you want to make a point, so of course you pick out a card like Boil to compare Bribery to. Yeah, some people don't like MLD, but that has nothing to do with Bribery.
Bribery is not a color-hoser like Boil. It's not a sideboard card you bring in to hose anyone. Resolving Bribery does not stop players from playing. So, let's stay on topic about Bribery and not go off about Boil or any other card you might have a problem with. I know that you don't like many, many cards. I also know you're smart enough not to die on the hill of Bribery being too op/horrible.
Bribery most definitely is not a feel bad card 100% of the time, not even close. For the instance where you opponent bounces the creature you bribe, I don't think that's actually a legitimate "feel's bad" for any player. That's just a good play, one of the type of plays that only happens in EDH. I simply wanted to point out that even in the instance where you bribe the best possible threat that you possibly can, your opponent can still maneuver around it. So how exactly does Bribery even approach ban worthy? Once again, you do post about banning a lot of cards.
Can you explain how someone resolving Bribery on you and the decks that you play specifically is "nothing but feel bad situations"?
This is the same issue as every other sideboard card. Cards that are broken or bad depending on what your opponent sleeved up are bad for the game. Are you a better player because you put boil in your deck and your opponents happened to be blue? What about the next game when you are sitting with the same card dead in your hand against 3 non-blue decks? It's not good for the game at all. Nothing but feel bad situations.
I know you want to make a point, so of course you pick out a card like Boil to compare Bribery to. Yeah, some people don't like MLD, but that has nothing to do with Bribery.
Bribery is not a color-hoser like Boil. It's not a sideboard card you bring in to hose anyone. Resolving Bribery does not stop players from playing. So, let's stay on topic about Bribery and not go off about Boil or any other card you might have a problem with. I know that you don't like many, many cards. I also know you're smart enough not to die on the hill of Bribery being too op/horrible.
Bribery most definitely is not a feel bad card 100% of the time, not even close. For the instance where you opponent bounces the creature you bribe, I don't think that's actually a legitimate "feel's bad" for any player. That's just a good play, one of the type of plays that only happens in EDH. I simply wanted to point out that even in the instance where you bribe the best possible threat that you possibly can, your opponent can still maneuver around it. So how exactly does Bribery even approach ban worthy? Once again, you do post about banning a lot of cards.
Can you explain how someone resolving Bribery on you and the decks that you play specifically is "nothing but feel bad situations"?
If you could target your own deck with bribery, it would be banned.
You can get functionally equivalent to that if your opponents are playing similar targets to what you would target with bribery in your own deck.
So you have a card that would be banned if your opponents are playing certain decks.
Okay...I think you guys are focusing way to much on the steal aspect. As I have iterated before, the fact bribery ‘steals’ is not THE ISSUE. 100% not the issue here at all. You said cloning or mind control? Well in the case of cloning or mind control, I don’t have to play out my cards. But that isn’t the issue.
“If you don’t to be bribed don’t run Blighsteel”
Bribery itself being over or underpowered is irrelavent to that point. My issue nowadays ISN’T that bribery ‘steals’ (there are 101 if not more ways to steal. Not as fair or efficient as bribery. But that beside the point).
Is the fact if you don’t want to be bribed, you shouldn’t run stompy/goodstuff cards. If I was playing a mostly combo or synergistic combo deck I wouldn’t be bribed with few to no good utility/generic good stuff creatures.
But that should be a choice not fostered in a sense by meta. (Meta important and dictates card choices don’t get me wrong). But what if I wanted to pull/play fun big stompy 10+ mana cards (which is exactly what my other main non-Sidisi EDH deck exactly is).
Being told by someone “if you didn’t run (high value cmc creature cards capable of ending the game) you wouldn’t be bribed/the solution here is don’t run high value single target good stuff cards. And you’ll never be bribed!”
Basically because a card that can steal and play directly a card from my deck for free exists, I should purposefully not run finishers in a non-combo, and deck which does not run x spells or finishers outside of x draw, only 1 haste outlet (and no hexproof or shroud outlet), only has 4 debatably 5 ways to ramp (1 Land, Salvela, Magnifying, Archive and Tempt with Discovery).
My stuff being stolen is just part of the game/part of blue and black color pie. Someone telling me “Well if only ran bad card/4-6 mana ‘Normal’ stompy without high value single target goodstuff bribery cards, or instead made your win condition a win con the spot combo with multiple pieces” as a way to defend bribery being ‘fair’. Speaks more to mindset behind defense of bribery then the card itself.
Which to be clear is my issue/reason for posting this thread. It isn’t because of bribery the card, exactly but the mindset that lays behind the defense of bribery. Essentially being “don’t run good cards”.
So I should instead run jank or interchangeable combo pieces. Perhaps every deck I build should have a concentrated theme with no truly good stuff creature that can work outside of that theme? But then what if I happen to really like Collossai or Eldrazi, should I instead run Hand of Emerakul, or the original Collossai which required 7 mana to untap itself?
That answer posits that you have other options. Now of course I could run Hand of Emerakul (or more legitimately Artisan) over Ulamog, or Kozi. Or run Gatekeeper Colossus over Blightsteel or Akros. But that answer also just sidesteps that in a multiplayer environment you do need to win too. The issue is to repeat not being bribed, but the defense being made for why bribe is fine.
Which isn’t “control magic is part of the game”, which is an acceptable and true statement. And not what I take issue with, it’s “if you don’t want to be bribed don’t run (good cards/targets)” defense of bribery. If I don’t want to be bribed I shouldn’t ultimately be running anything akin to a 60 card green stompy deck?
If I don’t want to be bribed I shouldn’t ultimately be running anything akin to a 60 card green stompy deck?
I don’t think your point is very clear, which is what’s led to confusion.
Short and sweet, here we go. Run whatever the hell you want to run, but, be prepared to have to deal with it. Bribery is a very cool card. But you need ways to deal with it. I get the feeling whoever said the statement you’ve repeated over and over is basically saying “You have good Bribery targets”, and not “If you don’t want to get bribed, play a different deck”. Sounds the same, delivery is everything.
But, they are right. If you don’t have ways to deal with the bombs in your own deck, then you either need to cut them, or include ways to deal with them.
If you could target your own deck with bribery, it would be banned.
You can get functionally equivalent to that if your opponents are playing similar targets to what you would target with bribery in your own deck.
So you have a card that would be banned if your opponents are playing certain decks.
Except, Bribery doesn't say you can target your deck. How does errata'd a card help your argument? You're basically upset about at a card that doesn't exist.
Any card is more powerful by changing certain words and numbers, you want to ban every card?
Which to be clear is my issue/reason for posting this thread. It isn’t because of bribery the card, exactly but the mindset that lays behind the defense of bribery. Essentially being “don’t run good cards”.
So I should instead run jank or interchangeable combo pieces. Perhaps every deck I build should have a concentrated theme with no truly good stuff creature that can work outside of that theme? But then what if I happen to really like Collossai or Eldrazi, should I instead run Hand of Emerakul, or the original Collossai which required 7 mana to untap itself?
Actually, the defense of Bribery is that it's just not a overly powerful card. It's even situational low in power and there's lots of ways to play through it.
I'd argue that Control Magic on a good threat can be even stronger than Bribery since it's actual card/tempo advantage.
You can get mad/upset at whatever you perceive to be feel-bad. However, that doesn't mean a card should be banned. Especially when most reasonable magic players would acknowledge that Bribery isn't a feel bad and could list other more pressing cards. If you think Bribery feels ban-worthy, you might also want to have a 200+ card banlist.
Except, Bribery doesn't say you can target your deck. How does errata'd a card help your argument? You're basically upset about at a card that doesn't exist.
Any card is more powerful by changing certain words and numbers, you want to ban every card?
But the card I described DOES exist, given specific situations.
Pretend their is a copy of your deck sitting across from you every game as one of your opponents. Suddenly bribery is pretty much functionally equivalent to "search your library for a creature and put it directly into play"
A card that reads that for 5 mana would be banned in edh.
It leads to bad gameplay, having the card strength be so heavily determined by what people sleeved up, ranging from a ban worthy card to a dead card.
But the card I described DOES exist, given specific situations.
Pretend their is a copy of your deck sitting across from you every game as one of your opponents. Suddenly bribery is pretty much functionally equivalent to "search your library for a creature and put it directly into play"
A card that reads that for 5 mana would be banned in edh.
It leads to bad gameplay, having the card strength be so heavily determined by what people sleeved up, ranging from a ban worthy card to a dead card.
Once again, a hypothetical card in a made up situation. But sure, let's pretend there's mirror match and two blue decks with Bribery at the table. Bribery in that situation is still not ban-worthy.
Even in the specific case that you mentioned, Bribery still doesn't play like a functional tutor/tinker for the exact card that you want from your deck because,
1.) A 5 cmc tutor should get you exactly the card you want from your deck. Unless you know your opponents' hands, Bribery isn't a guaranteed tutor for what you want since they might already hold it in their hands.
2.) And if your Bribery choice gets bounced it doesn't go into your hand. It goes to your opponent's hand. So no, it's not a tutor
Bribery the way it literally reads in real life will never be banned in EDH. Bribery the way the card plays out in EDH will also never be banned in EDH.
Bribery does not lead to any worse gameplay than that creature just coming out anyway. There are ways less than 5 mana to cheat mana-costs in commander. Do you complain about every single one of those as well?
You are being extremely low on Bribery to call it "dead." Lots of cards' playability are determined by what opponents play. That doesn't mean a thing. A Golgari deck has a tough time vs Sword of Feast and Famine than an Azorius deck. That's just a part of the game. It's a feature not a bug.
So, following this thread - I'm seeing two separate discussions that are getting intertwined with each other in confusing ways:
1) Player Interaction
So it seems that Cerberus' intended point is that somehow Bribery has gotten a mentality/excuse behind it that if you don't want to be hit by it, you shouldn't run good targets - which is an argument you don't really hear (or hear as much) for similar theft effects, such as Control Magic. Bribery isn't the issue in this situation, but rather that one player is trying to tell another how to play the game.
I think it's more of a mentality thing, where using Bribery to one shot someone feels more acceptable to the person running it, because it's not your card, and thereby the blame can't fall on you. Perhaps something about the "random" luck of discovering it in a person's deck adds to it, because you usually don't see that same mentality (to the same extent) from things like Control Magic, Clones, or Rite of Replication kills, where if you use those effects - while not your deck, it's clearly an 'intent' to do so.
Bribery gets this extra layer of blame deflection in the "I don't know what's there, it's their fault, not mine!" And perhaps players should try to be better about taking responsibility of their actions in making a game worth playing with others, and worth talking about after.
2) Power level of Bribery
The second discussion seems to be centered around the powerlevel of bribery. Carthage, I think I have to disagree that Bribery would be banned even if it could target yourself. Despite being a strong effect (especially in blue), there are already far more ways to cheat creatures out from your deck, even sooner than bribery. Even down to Entomb/Exhume shenanigans, which happens on turn two, or even turn 1 with a dark ritual.
While I feel that's definitely too strong of an effect for a single card at 5 mana, and a massive color-pie violation in blue, I don't think it would necessarily be anything outside of what we could technically already see happen, in a myriad of other ways - though simplicity and reliability do need to be taken into account.
I think the power level of the card is intrinsic to the point he's trying to make.
You guys are absolutely crazy if you think bribery wouldn't be banned if it could search your own library. That would be ridiculously over the top that you have to bring in combos to compete with what this card does by itself, every time.
Would ulamog be banned if he cost 5 mana? What about blightsteel? What about jin gitaxis? Because that's what this card would be.
I mean, Natural Order does that with very little support. An extra mana vs a creature that dies is somewhat reasonable. Hell, Defense of the Heart gets you 2 creatures and is usually on, for 4 mana, but is much more vulnerable so its a wash. I still think that because its self contained in one card, with no downside or preconditions, and in Blue instead of Green, Bribery for your library would be a fat piece of cheese that shouldn't be printed and could potentially be banned, but I'm not sure if it would be a guarantee. Entomb + any 2 mana or less reanimation spell is just better, even as a combo. Defense of the Heart is higher risk higher reward, while NO is worth the nominal setup for cutting off a mana.
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The long story short, this thread was inspired by a discussion I had with a friend three years ago if bribery and bribery like cards should be legal. Here is the short and sweet version I was salty after he Briberied my Blighsteel then equipped Boots or Greaves, before swing to kill.
Admittedly the following is true
1) If I didn’t have a Blighsteel he couldn’t bribed it
2) Killing me exiled said Blightsteel
The closest comparison point admittedly here is Tinker, but the difference is tinker can admittedly be built around. And while existence of cards like bribery do not stop me from putting thing like Blightsteel certain decks no more than clones stop me from playing it.
But I feels more than a tad awful. Sense unless I am in blue (or a semi niche answer or otherwise in other colors), or Homeward Path I don’t have much in a way to play around in-game. To reiterate I understand in-game solutions (Homeward Path, Flickers like Sojorner, various enchantments grant player hexproof, alongside counter spells. Or just plain removing the card via other means).
What stood out to me in that convo, I was told “Well if you don’t want to be bribed, you shouldn’t play good cards like Blightsteel”. I would be lying if I didn’t try taking Blighsteel or not put other single high powered creatures that could end game in a non-combo manner and played more 4-6 mana standard midrange creatures, out of certain decks. But found I needed cards like Blightsteel and had to accept briberied being a thing. And I often find that exact answer often parroted, when someone complains about a card being briberied (or complaining about card that was bribed and told “you shouldn’t play [good] cards like [x] and you wouldn’t be bribed for them).
The extension of the argument cards like bribery are only as powerful as the table they sit across from. Or more accurately it’s only as powerful as the strongest individual card power level in any given pod. And an ubiquitous existence of this card in a meta will definitely nudged players away from player cool “8+ mana win condition combat creatures” and into more combo-esque decks with interchangeable pieces that needs more than a piece to win on its own and eschewing one card “value/finisher” creatures. (Or admittedly playing them anyways, and add stuff like Homeward Path).
Ultimately I am not favor of bribery in the format, and while a ban of bribery and various similar cards is unlikely. A ban of bribery, I think would make a statement of those kinds of cards AND in my opinion discredit or provide ammoniation against the anti-Timmy argument of “you shouldn’t play those cards if you don’t want them bribed against you”.
I say anti-Timmy because Timmy’s exactly the players who are one enjoy playing these win condition big stompy creatures like Blightsteel and to some extent the ability to play said cards be it blighsteel or other overly big win conditon on a stick is the purpose of the format.
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
If I am mistaken in your position, please let me know.
It is awful against proactive decks that are very commander-synergistic. Such poor targets can still be combat creatures.
As for the feel-bad, I recently snuck in a blightsteel ninja against a person who hardcast one. Stuff like this happens.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
However, you just gotta have some kind of plan for a Bribery and a Knowledge Exploitation targeting you. And if the opponent knows that you are playing a goodstuff deck, they are more likely to target you because you are more likely to have something relevant to the current situation.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Which I have talked about already in my first post above. I know there are answers (Homeward Path for one). But telling someone “they shouldn’t build an EDH deck filled with stompy things so they don’t get briberied” is actively against the spirit of the format. Which is why I am posting this thread.
And for the reanimate strategy is distinctly different from telling someone “they cannot/shouldn’t play x which format design to enable you to play because it could cheated out on you by your opponent”.
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
Nah, not really. Not running such creatures is a way to avoid bribery, but when someone says something like "if you don't want to get your blightsteel taken by bribery, don't run blightsteel" they are also implicitly saying "if you want to run blightsteel, be prepared to see it grabbed by bribery effects." Basically, if you want to run big, stompy, game winning fatties, don't complain when someone else steals them. You've already decided that it's ok to run those creatures so you have no room to complain when they get used against you. Is it a bit of a feel bad to get killed by your own blightsteel? Of course, but no more than it's a feel bad to get killed by someone else's. Heck, it's a feel bad to get your wincon creature exiled by STP as well. These are pretty low level feel bad that are impossible to remove from the game without ruining the game. This isn't a case of locking people out or pulling off a cheesy combo or just targeting on person, it's just a player not having something go well for them, which is going to happen at some point to all but one player at most in any game.
What's actively against the spirit of the format is the attitude that you should be able to run what you want without your opponents being able to take advantage of that in any way. Bribery is as much an EDH card as blightsteel, a fun splashy card that only gets to shine in this format. You think it's fun to run blightsteel, they think it's fun to use bribery to grab it from your deck. If that is really so problematic for you, then you should cut blightsteel because that prevents it, otherwise stop complaining and deal with the fact that it gets stolen sometimes. You know that in addition to counter magic there are other options for dealing with that. You can exile blightsteel, you can hit it with an aura that prevents it from attacking, you can steal it back, etc. If someone manages to stick boots on it oh well, too bad, they got a 2 card combo that needed a card from your deck to work. If that's something they are gunning for every game, taking out blightsteel would be worth it for the look on their face when it's not there, while if it's just something that happens occasionally oh well, sometimes you don't win. You should run some artifact removal to deal with the boot up anyway, it's an equipment that shouldn't be allowed to stick. Throw in homeward path and some tutors for it to turn their bribery in your favor. Through in brand if your red. Through in that mass path to exile spell from Ixalan that exiles all attackers. Use mass sacrifice spells.
Btw, blightsteel is more problematic than bribery, it's a cheesy one hit kill. Its not banworthy, but it checks more boxes than bribery. It's a classic centralizing card whose existence in a game results in it being fought over, it's just not prevelant enough to spur people to run steal effects just to get it. If you consistently include it in your decks, you'll sleep your meta into running more steal effects as it's such a juicy target. That's a problem caused by blightsteel. What you are doing is complaining that the other players want a chance to benefit from you running such a swingy card that can end them out of nowhere. You should also consider that if blightsteel gets hit with bribery and thrown directly at your face rather than used to take out the table first, then perhaps your opponents don't like playing against blightsteel and using it only to take you out as a way to remove it from the game (and send you a message, which they also sent by literally telling you to stop running it). People don't like getting one hit killed by a surprise blightsteel, as you seem to be figuring out.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
And secondly, regardless of if I was running Blightsteel or not (which is the point of EDH partly to run big stompy things), what isn’t in favor is tell players “don’t play big dumb stompy archtype because it could be taken from deck and used against you”.
Like I am hearing “Well if you don’t want to be bribed don’t run Blighsteel” but actually reading “don’t run big stompy win condition cards like Blighsteel (Worldspine Wurm, various Eldrazi, the Praetors, the many Collossai etc) Because they could be bribery.
That isn’t a mindset and espacially when someone main reason for a card like bribery is simply to make the point “you shouldn’t big stompy” instead claim “you should *****ty cards that are synergetistically a win condition but useless on their lonesome”. Your focusing on the mechanical aspect, like why shouldn’t I play a card because it’s being bribed?
You guys keep trying to focus on “Well your salty you got blighsteeled/why should you be angry got killed by a card you were playing when you were one playing it”. To just reemphasis, I am not salty about being killed by own blighsteel.
If I play a card like blighsteel, I fine with playing against a Blighsteel (which is also why I don’t play Sol Ring. I am not fine playing against Sol Ring so I won’t in my EDH decks). And let’s take apart what you said, “Run answers” you know like I said in the OP, “I know Homeward Path and more exist”.
It’s not an issue of a card I am running being used against me there are 1001 answers to that. It’s the issue of being told “Well if you didn’t run (Big Stompy/Individual Powerful Cards not requiring Synergstic Themetic connection to work) you wouldn’t be bribed”.
You see no issue with that statement and the ideology of someone who would genuine believe that and try to push that as the way someone should play EDH?
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
I don't think people are playing Bribery to punish you, I think they are playing it because its a low cost way to get out a huge creature. I think they are justifying that saying you should be able to answer threats you have in your deck, because it seemed like you were saying they shouldn't get your cool thing for less than what is costs mana-wise.
Would bribery be legal if you could search your own deck? Almost certainly not. The card would be broken, letting you cheat out any creature for 5 mana that's in your deck.
So if your opponents have the creature you would search out in their decks, you are playing a card that would never be allowed in the format.
It's like a sideboard card that hates against part of what makes edh fun.
Not a fan, wouldn't mind seeing it gone, but that list of cards is pretty big nowadays.
Like I said, the other half of "if you don't want it to be stolen with bribery, don't run it" is "If you run it, expect it to be a bribery target." Nobody is telling you not to run Blightsteel, they are telling you to accept that running blightsteel means you have a great bribery target in your library. You admit in your first post that this thread exists because you were salty that someone killed you with your own blightsteel. Did you complain about it? Were you obviously upset? If it seemed like you were being overly salty about it, then I could see your opponents telling you not to run Blightsteel if you don't want that to happen again. You of course don't have to take their advice, but if you continue to run it you should just accept that it may get stolen. Steal effects are just part of the game, and healthy for it.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
"What if" none of your opponents play any creatures? Would Bribery be ban worthy?
You being upset about the variance of Bribery is the entire point of the card. It being 100% awesome or 0% sucks and everything in between is a feature of the card, not a bug.
Bribery only searches your opponents deck and that is a huge difference. Even if you're playing a mirror-match, you still don't know what's in your opponents' hands and what's left in their libraries?
There's also the HUGE drawback of your opponents being able to answer the creature with a bounce spell. Then you essentially spent 5 mana and tutored a creature for your opponent....yeah, the feel bads for Bribery can run both ways.
This is the same issue as every other sideboard card. Cards that are broken or bad depending on what your opponent sleeved up are bad for the game. Are you a better player because you put boil in your deck and your opponents happened to be blue? What about the next game when you are sitting with the same card dead in your hand against 3 non-blue decks? It's not good for the game at all. Nothing but feel bad situations.
I know you want to make a point, so of course you pick out a card like Boil to compare Bribery to. Yeah, some people don't like MLD, but that has nothing to do with Bribery.
Bribery is not a color-hoser like Boil. It's not a sideboard card you bring in to hose anyone. Resolving Bribery does not stop players from playing. So, let's stay on topic about Bribery and not go off about Boil or any other card you might have a problem with. I know that you don't like many, many cards. I also know you're smart enough not to die on the hill of Bribery being too op/horrible.
Bribery most definitely is not a feel bad card 100% of the time, not even close. For the instance where you opponent bounces the creature you bribe, I don't think that's actually a legitimate "feel's bad" for any player. That's just a good play, one of the type of plays that only happens in EDH. I simply wanted to point out that even in the instance where you bribe the best possible threat that you possibly can, your opponent can still maneuver around it. So how exactly does Bribery even approach ban worthy? Once again, you do post about banning a lot of cards.
Can you explain how someone resolving Bribery on you and the decks that you play specifically is "nothing but feel bad situations"?
If you could target your own deck with bribery, it would be banned.
You can get functionally equivalent to that if your opponents are playing similar targets to what you would target with bribery in your own deck.
So you have a card that would be banned if your opponents are playing certain decks.
This is pretty god damn feels bad.
“If you don’t to be bribed don’t run Blighsteel”
Bribery itself being over or underpowered is irrelavent to that point. My issue nowadays ISN’T that bribery ‘steals’ (there are 101 if not more ways to steal. Not as fair or efficient as bribery. But that beside the point).
Is the fact if you don’t want to be bribed, you shouldn’t run stompy/goodstuff cards. If I was playing a mostly combo or synergistic combo deck I wouldn’t be bribed with few to no good utility/generic good stuff creatures.
But that should be a choice not fostered in a sense by meta. (Meta important and dictates card choices don’t get me wrong). But what if I wanted to pull/play fun big stompy 10+ mana cards (which is exactly what my other main non-Sidisi EDH deck exactly is).
Being told by someone “if you didn’t run (high value cmc creature cards capable of ending the game) you wouldn’t be bribed/the solution here is don’t run high value single target good stuff cards. And you’ll never be bribed!”
Basically because a card that can steal and play directly a card from my deck for free exists, I should purposefully not run finishers in a non-combo, and deck which does not run x spells or finishers outside of x draw, only 1 haste outlet (and no hexproof or shroud outlet), only has 4 debatably 5 ways to ramp (1 Land, Salvela, Magnifying, Archive and Tempt with Discovery).
My stuff being stolen is just part of the game/part of blue and black color pie. Someone telling me “Well if only ran bad card/4-6 mana ‘Normal’ stompy without high value single target goodstuff bribery cards, or instead made your win condition a win con the spot combo with multiple pieces” as a way to defend bribery being ‘fair’. Speaks more to mindset behind defense of bribery then the card itself.
Which to be clear is my issue/reason for posting this thread. It isn’t because of bribery the card, exactly but the mindset that lays behind the defense of bribery. Essentially being “don’t run good cards”.
So I should instead run jank or interchangeable combo pieces. Perhaps every deck I build should have a concentrated theme with no truly good stuff creature that can work outside of that theme? But then what if I happen to really like Collossai or Eldrazi, should I instead run Hand of Emerakul, or the original Collossai which required 7 mana to untap itself?
That answer posits that you have other options. Now of course I could run Hand of Emerakul (or more legitimately Artisan) over Ulamog, or Kozi. Or run Gatekeeper Colossus over Blightsteel or Akros. But that answer also just sidesteps that in a multiplayer environment you do need to win too. The issue is to repeat not being bribed, but the defense being made for why bribe is fine.
Which isn’t “control magic is part of the game”, which is an acceptable and true statement. And not what I take issue with, it’s “if you don’t want to be bribed don’t run (good cards/targets)” defense of bribery. If I don’t want to be bribed I shouldn’t ultimately be running anything akin to a 60 card green stompy deck?
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
I don’t think your point is very clear, which is what’s led to confusion.
Short and sweet, here we go. Run whatever the hell you want to run, but, be prepared to have to deal with it. Bribery is a very cool card. But you need ways to deal with it. I get the feeling whoever said the statement you’ve repeated over and over is basically saying “You have good Bribery targets”, and not “If you don’t want to get bribed, play a different deck”. Sounds the same, delivery is everything.
But, they are right. If you don’t have ways to deal with the bombs in your own deck, then you either need to cut them, or include ways to deal with them.
Except, Bribery doesn't say you can target your deck. How does errata'd a card help your argument? You're basically upset about at a card that doesn't exist.
Any card is more powerful by changing certain words and numbers, you want to ban every card?
Actually, the defense of Bribery is that it's just not a overly powerful card. It's even situational low in power and there's lots of ways to play through it.
I'd argue that Control Magic on a good threat can be even stronger than Bribery since it's actual card/tempo advantage.
You can get mad/upset at whatever you perceive to be feel-bad. However, that doesn't mean a card should be banned. Especially when most reasonable magic players would acknowledge that Bribery isn't a feel bad and could list other more pressing cards. If you think Bribery feels ban-worthy, you might also want to have a 200+ card banlist.
But the card I described DOES exist, given specific situations.
Pretend their is a copy of your deck sitting across from you every game as one of your opponents. Suddenly bribery is pretty much functionally equivalent to "search your library for a creature and put it directly into play"
A card that reads that for 5 mana would be banned in edh.
It leads to bad gameplay, having the card strength be so heavily determined by what people sleeved up, ranging from a ban worthy card to a dead card.
Once again, a hypothetical card in a made up situation. But sure, let's pretend there's mirror match and two blue decks with Bribery at the table. Bribery in that situation is still not ban-worthy.
Even in the specific case that you mentioned, Bribery still doesn't play like a functional tutor/tinker for the exact card that you want from your deck because,
1.) A 5 cmc tutor should get you exactly the card you want from your deck. Unless you know your opponents' hands, Bribery isn't a guaranteed tutor for what you want since they might already hold it in their hands.
2.) And if your Bribery choice gets bounced it doesn't go into your hand. It goes to your opponent's hand. So no, it's not a tutor
Bribery the way it literally reads in real life will never be banned in EDH. Bribery the way the card plays out in EDH will also never be banned in EDH.
Bribery does not lead to any worse gameplay than that creature just coming out anyway. There are ways less than 5 mana to cheat mana-costs in commander. Do you complain about every single one of those as well?
You are being extremely low on Bribery to call it "dead." Lots of cards' playability are determined by what opponents play. That doesn't mean a thing. A Golgari deck has a tough time vs Sword of Feast and Famine than an Azorius deck. That's just a part of the game. It's a feature not a bug.
1) Player Interaction
So it seems that Cerberus' intended point is that somehow Bribery has gotten a mentality/excuse behind it that if you don't want to be hit by it, you shouldn't run good targets - which is an argument you don't really hear (or hear as much) for similar theft effects, such as Control Magic. Bribery isn't the issue in this situation, but rather that one player is trying to tell another how to play the game.
I think it's more of a mentality thing, where using Bribery to one shot someone feels more acceptable to the person running it, because it's not your card, and thereby the blame can't fall on you. Perhaps something about the "random" luck of discovering it in a person's deck adds to it, because you usually don't see that same mentality (to the same extent) from things like Control Magic, Clones, or Rite of Replication kills, where if you use those effects - while not your deck, it's clearly an 'intent' to do so.
Bribery gets this extra layer of blame deflection in the "I don't know what's there, it's their fault, not mine!" And perhaps players should try to be better about taking responsibility of their actions in making a game worth playing with others, and worth talking about after.
2) Power level of Bribery
The second discussion seems to be centered around the powerlevel of bribery. Carthage, I think I have to disagree that Bribery would be banned even if it could target yourself. Despite being a strong effect (especially in blue), there are already far more ways to cheat creatures out from your deck, even sooner than bribery. Even down to Entomb/Exhume shenanigans, which happens on turn two, or even turn 1 with a dark ritual.
While I feel that's definitely too strong of an effect for a single card at 5 mana, and a massive color-pie violation in blue, I don't think it would necessarily be anything outside of what we could technically already see happen, in a myriad of other ways - though simplicity and reliability do need to be taken into account.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
You guys are absolutely crazy if you think bribery wouldn't be banned if it could search your own library. That would be ridiculously over the top that you have to bring in combos to compete with what this card does by itself, every time.
Would ulamog be banned if he cost 5 mana? What about blightsteel? What about jin gitaxis? Because that's what this card would be.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!