So, I really didn't ever think I would bring this card up in the question of banned list but this card is incredibly diverse in what it can do and if your deck ramps and puts bodies in play it very easily kills players. The versatility is quite high and its a good card at kind of every stage of the game. I am not always fond of 8+ mana haymakers but this card is kind of crazy in that its so much more versatile than just casting it for 12+ mana.
I don't really want to dive into specific situations that can come up with it but my concern is that its like including a Craterhoof Behemoth in your deck that can also just be Green Sun's Zenith in all other situations where it doesn't end the game. If you try to break it down just as a 12 mana + board wincon its not really that concerning but the versatility of what it can do and still be that is what actually gets me worried.
My kneejerk reaction is "but tooth and nail and expropriate" but this card kinda is both a crappy rampant growth and expropriate on the same card, so that's interesting for sure.
The fact that you can green sun's zenith for craterhoof behemoth for less mana kind of makes me lean against, because GSZ is quite a bit better early game, but FOD has a bunch of advantages:
1) doesn't require a large board to kill someone; I killed a table with like 8 creatures the other day because they just didn't have enough blockers.
2) it beats torpor effects
3) it goes to the graveyard on resolution so you can get eternal witness and go again if you want to not overcommit.
Because of the very high mana cost to make it a game winner I don't think it's quite bannable but it is definitely very strong. I think we would need to address it against the banlist criteria as a starting point, but probably wait until Monday and see what the new ban criteria are
Personally I am about to order my 3rd copy and that's a good sign something is possibly too good since I'm kinda spikey about my green decks.
Yeah, its GSZ until you hit 12, and once you hit 12 you should be casting haymakers. I'm always miffed by single card wincons, but its 3 mana more than the alternatives, and I don't think being otherwise useful puts it over the top.
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I mean I think the lack of trample grant probably makes it safe enough. It's very versatile, but having to pour that much mana into it puts paid to doing much else in a turn - at least in the circumstance that you're not already tearing ahead as it is. I can attest to it doing some crazy things. Like, the right choice is almost always to tutor for Craterhoof or Pathbreaker Ibex, but it's not as instantaneously game ending as Tooth and Nail can be.
Thought experiment: if Expropriate was a modal spell and the first one was Ponder for UU, would it be broken?
It's already broken enough, so...yeah
However, I think it wouldn't be treated the same as Finale of Devastation. I believe most players psychologically don't see playing a non-ultimate'd Finale as a downer. Whereas, if Expropriate had that lesser mode, few players would ever play it for the lesser mode, even if it was the right play.
Ponder is a bigger step down from Expropriate than Green Sun's Zenith is from ultimate-form Finale. Having a creature Wargate'd into play is still more than good.
I think a better card to reference it against would be Cyclonic Rift. Rarely played for it's 2 cmc mode, but still clutch when you have to. Except Cyclonic Rift is a powerful answer card (perhaps the best), and it cannot be a finisher on its own. Finale is an okay answer card (sorcery speed), and can still be a devastating finisher on its own.
By the way, I play and resolve Ad Nauseam a bunch. I play it a bunch because my main deck has 60 lands. I get to resolve it because I'm playing it in a pod where I'm trying to win with Maze's End. I wouldn't say it's a problem card in cEDH or non-cEDH.
So, I really didn't ever think I would bring this card up in the question of banned list but this card is incredibly diverse in what it can do and if your deck ramps and puts bodies in play it very easily kills players. The versatility is quite high and its a good card at kind of every stage of the game. I am not always fond of 8+ mana haymakers but this card is kind of crazy in that its so much more versatile than just casting it for 12+ mana.
I don't really want to dive into specific situations that can come up with it but my concern is that its like including a Craterhoof Behemoth in your deck that can also just be Green Sun's Zenith in all other situations where it doesn't end the game. If you try to break it down just as a 12 mana + board wincon its not really that concerning but the versatility of what it can do and still be that is what actually gets me worried.
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The fact that you can green sun's zenith for craterhoof behemoth for less mana kind of makes me lean against, because GSZ is quite a bit better early game, but FOD has a bunch of advantages:
1) doesn't require a large board to kill someone; I killed a table with like 8 creatures the other day because they just didn't have enough blockers.
2) it beats torpor effects
3) it goes to the graveyard on resolution so you can get eternal witness and go again if you want to not overcommit.
Because of the very high mana cost to make it a game winner I don't think it's quite bannable but it is definitely very strong. I think we would need to address it against the banlist criteria as a starting point, but probably wait until Monday and see what the new ban criteria are
Personally I am about to order my 3rd copy and that's a good sign something is possibly too good since I'm kinda spikey about my green decks.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
A simple thought experiment; if Expropriate had an alternate mode that was a powerful early curve spell, would it be broken?
Finale of Devastation is conceptually similar. It has a pretty good early game effect and a late game effect that wins on the same card.
I don't think it necessarily tells you anything but it's interesting to think about.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
It's already broken enough, so...yeah
However, I think it wouldn't be treated the same as Finale of Devastation. I believe most players psychologically don't see playing a non-ultimate'd Finale as a downer. Whereas, if Expropriate had that lesser mode, few players would ever play it for the lesser mode, even if it was the right play.
Ponder is a bigger step down from Expropriate than Green Sun's Zenith is from ultimate-form Finale. Having a creature Wargate'd into play is still more than good.
I think a better card to reference it against would be Cyclonic Rift. Rarely played for it's 2 cmc mode, but still clutch when you have to. Except Cyclonic Rift is a powerful answer card (perhaps the best), and it cannot be a finisher on its own. Finale is an okay answer card (sorcery speed), and can still be a devastating finisher on its own.
By the way, I play and resolve Ad Nauseam a bunch. I play it a bunch because my main deck has 60 lands. I get to resolve it because I'm playing it in a pod where I'm trying to win with Maze's End. I wouldn't say it's a problem card in cEDH or non-cEDH.