I just realised as well, effects like null rod doesn't affect urza - it's him who makes the mana, not the artifact itself.
There are a few things about urza that makes him really good. i think his etb effect pushes him somewhat even further than before (it immediately gives you U to 'go off').
I think the thing that's limiting is that he's mono blue. In other words, as a general, you won't be able to thopter foundry/sword of the meek combo. I'm sure there are other combos that are playable in mono blue though.
I guess in a month or so, we'll figure out if urza is bannable - someone will inevitably figure out how to break him, but i doubt it'll come down to it.
I just realised as well, effects like null rod doesn't affect urza - it's him who makes the mana, not the artifact itself.
There are a few things about urza that makes him really good. i think his etb effect pushes him somewhat even further than before (it immediately gives you U to 'go off').
I think the thing that's limiting is that he's mono blue. In other words, as a general, you won't be able to thopter foundry/sword of the meek combo. I'm sure there are other combos that are playable in mono blue though.
I guess in a month or so, we'll figure out if urza is bannable - someone will inevitably figure out how to break him, but i doubt it'll come down to it.
At this point, one card doesn't receive a ban just because it's good or breakable. Too many cards fit that criteria.
This card is obviously strong, but Urza isn't locking anyone out or being annoying (i.e. Erayo, Leovold). Urza just means your artifact deck is strong, kinda like how Rofellos means your forest deck is strong.
My specific concern with Urza is something that nobody else seems to be talking about.
While I feel that Urza is simply strong as a commander, I worry about Urza in the 99. Between giving a free body, the ability to turn your equipment and random artifacts into mana rocks, and a fairly powerful colorless mana sink, Urza is the type of card that opponents may target with Bribery, Reanimate, Treachery, Clever Impersonator, and so forth, possibly warping the game in the way that cards like prophet of kruphix did. While Urza isn't Primeval Titan or Prophet of Kruphix, we might see Urza being banned if he ends up bending the game in that manner.
This card is obviously strong, but Urza isn't locking anyone out or being annoying (i.e. Erayo, Leovold). Urza just means your artifact deck is strong, kinda like how Rofellos means your forest deck is strong.
You are aware Rofellos is banned? I don't think they really do the same thing, but thats a bad analogy if you mean Urza should not be banned.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
My specific concern with Urza is something that nobody else seems to be talking about.
While I feel that Urza is simply strong as a commander, I worry about Urza in the 99. Between giving a free body, the ability to turn your equipment and random artifacts into mana rocks, and a fairly powerful colorless mana sink, Urza is the type of card that opponents may target with Bribery, Reanimate, Treachery, Clever Impersonator, and so forth, possibly warping the game in the way that cards like prophet of kruphix did. While Urza isn't Primeval Titan or Prophet of Kruphix, we might see Urza being banned if he ends up bending the game in that manner.
That is a concern for any new card, but we can only know about how present it is in Commander once it is out. I personally only see playing it in one of 17 decks. My other decks don't have that many artifacts, and most of them already tap for mana.
Primeval Titan is good... in any deck, all the time.
Sylvan Primordial too.
Prophet of Kruphix was not good all the time... but was good anytime you had cards in hand, which is most of the time.
I am not targeting Urza with a Bribery unless it makes sense in that specific board. I just don't think it will be as centralizing a card as others on the ban list.
The best comparison I can make with Urza, Lord High Artificer is with Prossh, Skyraider of Kher. Both are infinite with a particular card (Paradox Engine vs. Food Chain), and both cover two different bases with what the decks needs to function (Urza provides a mana engine along with the mini-Mind's Desire vs. Prossh providing Fodder and a sac outlet). The biggest difference here is the cost (Urza only costing 4 mana versus 7 for Prossh is a huge difference) and teh built-in win-con (one you go off, you will play your whole deck with Urza vs. Prossh needing a Purphoros-type effect to win). Prossh does give you access to 3 colors where Urza only gives you access to one, but when that one color is blue its pretty even on that front. So while we all know that Prossh can be pretty powerful, I would expect Urza to be in the same ballpark but slightly better; you can build him to maximize your ability to go infinite and lock up the board with stax peieces to bide you time, or you can build the deck in a more "fair" fashion and probably still have a really good deck that isn't miserable to play with/against.
The issue then becomes what does a "fair" Urza deck look like. It's obviously an artifact-centric deck, probably with cards that produce artifact tokens like Sai, Master Thopterist, Efficient Construction, Thopter Spy Network, Tezzeret, Artifice Master, Genesis Chamber (extra saucy because you can tap it for mana to turn it off on other player's turns), Thopter Assembly), etc. I think that even this kind of deck has the potential for some really strong shenanigans without being annoying.
This card is obviously strong, but Urza isn't locking anyone out or being annoying (i.e. Erayo, Leovold). Urza just means your artifact deck is strong, kinda like how Rofellos means your forest deck is strong.
You are aware Rofellos is banned? I don't think they really do the same thing, but thats a bad analogy if you mean Urza should not be banned.
Yes, I am aware of Rofellos. I just want to say that unless it locks players out, no commander should be banned. Rofellos still being banned is kinda weird.
Urza is just strong. But any stronger than Thrasios? Thrasios does the same thing but is 4 colors and 2cmc.
The issue then becomes what does a "fair" Urza deck look like. It's obviously an artifact-centric deck, probably with cards that produce artifact tokens like Sai, Master Thopterist, Efficient Construction, Thopter Spy Network, Tezzeret, Artifice Master, Genesis Chamber (extra saucy because you can tap it for mana to turn it off on other player's turns), Thopter Assembly), etc. I think that even this kind of deck has the potential for some really strong shenanigans without being annoying.
I don't know what "fair" means, but you can definitely play without being able to make infinite mana or do infinite loops.
The best comparison I can make with Urza, Lord High Artificer is with Prossh, Skyraider of Kher. Both are infinite with a particular card (Paradox Engine vs. Food Chain), and both cover two different bases with what the decks needs to function (Urza provides a mana engine along with the mini-Mind's Desire vs. Prossh providing Fodder and a sac outlet).
This analogy doesn't really hold up in my opinion.
Prosh and food chain is infinite all on its own and deterministically so.
Urza and paradox engine does nothing on their own and even when you get a bunch of mana rocks you are still not deterministically infinite since the ability can fizzle. Sure, with enough rocks and mana to start with you are very likely to be able to play your whole deck. But it is not a 2 card combo in the way foodchain prosh or flashhulk is.
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Also that with him and other new artifact-centric cards, banning him is merely a band aid on a larger problem involving artifact-centric decks that currently exists.
The best comparison I can make with Urza, Lord High Artificer is with Prossh, Skyraider of Kher. Both are infinite with a particular card (Paradox Engine vs. Food Chain), and both cover two different bases with what the decks needs to function (Urza provides a mana engine along with the mini-Mind's Desire vs. Prossh providing Fodder and a sac outlet).
This analogy doesn't really hold up in my opinion.
Prosh and food chain is infinite all on its own and deterministically so.
Urza and paradox engine does nothing on their own and even when you get a bunch of mana rocks you are still not deterministically infinite since the ability can fizzle. Sure, with enough rocks and mana to start with you are very likely to be able to play your whole deck. But it is not a 2 card combo in the way foodchain prosh or flashhulk is.
Urza, Lord High Artificer does something on his own though, he creates at minimum 2/5 worth of bodies on the board and can immediately tap the 1/1 he made for U. Also if he and his token is allowed to live till presumably the next turn such as Turn 5 he can activate his own ability. Even if a land drop was missed with just four lands and his token. Which based on what you get after a quick shuffle can range anywhere from a land (awful) to a free cast of Omniscience (jackpot). This is because Urza still creates what is essentially a mana rock for his own ability if he is by himself.
Paradox Engine meanwhile does nothing by itself because its reliant on other cards in order to fulfill its own trigger-based condition. It doesn't create nonland spells in your hand to satisfy its own trigger to untap nonland permanents.
Also that with him and other new artifact-centric cards, banning him is merely a band aid on a larger problem involving artifact-centric decks that currently exists.
I think this is more the point I would agree with. What Urza really does is demonstrate how this deck already exists in its horribly broken state, waiting for a commander to appear to fully utilize it (either by breaking its stax parity, massively accelerating its game plan, or in Urza's case both).
But there are too many high power artifacts that feed on each other's broken synergies to just outright ban them all. I tend to find these decks much of a muchness, regardless of who leads them, so that already drains much of the brewing appeal to me looking for optimal tech.
Urza does point a finger at how stupid paradox engine is. Anything that can get that stupid thing banned is OK with me Hopefully Urza goes nuts with PE's everywhere and we can finally see the end of that piece of crap card.
Urza does point a finger at how stupid paradox engine is. Anything that can get that stupid thing banned is OK with me Hopefully Urza goes nuts with PE's everywhere and we can finally see the end of that piece of crap card.
Has PE finally surpassed Ashnod's Altar of the "combos with air" title?
Urza does point a finger at how stupid paradox engine is. Anything that can get that stupid thing banned is OK with me Hopefully Urza goes nuts with PE's everywhere and we can finally see the end of that piece of crap card.
Has PE finally surpassed Ashnod's Altar of the "combos with air" title?
Absolutely.
PE reminds me of my buddy's Ghave deck that consisted almost entirely of "cards that combo with Ghave, or combo with cards that combo with Ghave." I pointed out combos he had on board but hadn't recognized at least 3 times. I should have named it the 2 degrees of Ghaven Bacon, but never thought of it until now
I personally hope this doesn't get banned because I'm dying to commit sacrilege by tossing this gem into my Mishra EDH. Personally I think it requires too many enablers to get banned but I also don't have the foresight for combos that more seasoned players do.
Urza does point a finger at how stupid paradox engine is. Anything that can get that stupid thing banned is OK with me Hopefully Urza goes nuts with PE's everywhere and we can finally see the end of that piece of crap card.
Has PE finally surpassed Ashnod's Altar of the "combos with air" title?
Agreed with Pokken. Engine does so much ridiculous shenanigans on a consistent basis that it is, quite simply, one of the most powerful Artifacts to have been printed in a long time. Are you playing mana rocks/dorks? This card lets you refund your resources FOR FREE to cast any and all of your spells. It's one of the few cards that I've ever preordered and I haven't yet regretted my decision.
Lets try to look at this combo with PE. Lets say that you have him, his token, PE and 3 other artifacts in play (and no untapped mana - you used that to play PE say). A third of your deck is land and the reminder is artifacts - for ease of calculation, I am ignoring how this changes as we go along. You tap your artifacts, getting 5 mana and activates Urza. 1/3 of the time you hit a land, 2/3 of the time you hit an artifact and untap all. This means that you get to activate him 3 or more times less than half the time (2/3 * 2/3 = 4/9 to be precise). I am not impressed with those odds. Yes, if you get 3 or more the probability to fail gets quite small, but I would expect the probability to end up just below 1/3 to go infinite, which is not that great.
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Lets try to look at this combo with PE. Lets say that you have him, his token, PE and 3 other artifacts in play (and no untapped mana - you used that to play PE say). A third of your deck is land and the reminder is artifacts - for ease of calculation, I am ignoring how this changes as we go along. You tap your artifacts, getting 5 mana and activates Urza. 1/3 of the time you hit a land, 2/3 of the time you hit an artifact and untap all. This means that you get to activate him 3 or more times less than half the time (2/3 * 2/3 = 4/9 to be precise). I am not impressed with those odds. Yes, if you get 3 or more the probability to fail gets quite small, but I would expect the probability to end up just below 1/3 to go infinite, which is not that great.
when you complicate this a tiny bit, add what you have in hand, presumably some number of 0-2 cmc artifacts, it heightens the chances of it 'going off'. And you're also removing the probability of having something like sceptre+that untapping instant, making you go off 'inevitably'. Sort of like the deck "four horsemen".
That being said, it's nowhere near as bad as food chain prosh.
Urza is fine. I suspect urza is going to find a space in other artifact-based decks more often than he will be as the main lead.
I am curious how much of the current hype and price around Urza is focused on EDH, and as such it would be nice to know the feelings of the RC around the card moving towards this set coming out.
I am curious how much of the current hype and price around Urza is focused on EDH, and as such it would be nice to know the feelings of the RC around the card moving towards this set coming out.
I would think a lot of it is people finally having Urza as a general.
To me, what differentiates this from Rofellos is Rofellos can let you cast a 6 mana spell on turn 3 if all you did was play lands and your general. Every game, turn 3 6-drop.
Urza will have fast starts, but not nearly the consistency of Rofellos.
To me, what differentiates this from Rofellos is Rofellos can let you cast a 6 mana spell on turn 3 if all you did was play lands and your general. Every game, turn 3 6-drop.
Urza will have fast starts, but not nearly the consistency of Rofellos.
Rofellos also requires you to actually have a 6-drop. Urza doesn't; 4 lands and your general lets you start freerolling the top of your deck with no other cards required.
To me, what differentiates this from Rofellos is Rofellos can let you cast a 6 mana spell on turn 3 if all you did was play lands and your general. Every game, turn 3 6-drop.
Urza will have fast starts, but not nearly the consistency of Rofellos.
Rofellos also requires you to actually have a 6-drop. Urza doesn't; 4 lands and your general lets you start freerolling the top of your deck with no other cards required.
True, but casting a random card from your library for 5 mana is not banworthy, nor is it even particularly strong.
The card as a whole is obviously strong, but that line of play isn't.
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There are a few things about urza that makes him really good. i think his etb effect pushes him somewhat even further than before (it immediately gives you U to 'go off').
I think the thing that's limiting is that he's mono blue. In other words, as a general, you won't be able to thopter foundry/sword of the meek combo. I'm sure there are other combos that are playable in mono blue though.
I guess in a month or so, we'll figure out if urza is bannable - someone will inevitably figure out how to break him, but i doubt it'll come down to it.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
This card is obviously strong, but Urza isn't locking anyone out or being annoying (i.e. Erayo, Leovold). Urza just means your artifact deck is strong, kinda like how Rofellos means your forest deck is strong.
While I feel that Urza is simply strong as a commander, I worry about Urza in the 99. Between giving a free body, the ability to turn your equipment and random artifacts into mana rocks, and a fairly powerful colorless mana sink, Urza is the type of card that opponents may target with Bribery, Reanimate, Treachery, Clever Impersonator, and so forth, possibly warping the game in the way that cards like prophet of kruphix did. While Urza isn't Primeval Titan or Prophet of Kruphix, we might see Urza being banned if he ends up bending the game in that manner.
That is a concern for any new card, but we can only know about how present it is in Commander once it is out. I personally only see playing it in one of 17 decks. My other decks don't have that many artifacts, and most of them already tap for mana.
Primeval Titan is good... in any deck, all the time.
Sylvan Primordial too.
Prophet of Kruphix was not good all the time... but was good anytime you had cards in hand, which is most of the time.
I am not targeting Urza with a Bribery unless it makes sense in that specific board. I just don't think it will be as centralizing a card as others on the ban list.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
The issue then becomes what does a "fair" Urza deck look like. It's obviously an artifact-centric deck, probably with cards that produce artifact tokens like Sai, Master Thopterist, Efficient Construction, Thopter Spy Network, Tezzeret, Artifice Master, Genesis Chamber (extra saucy because you can tap it for mana to turn it off on other player's turns), Thopter Assembly), etc. I think that even this kind of deck has the potential for some really strong shenanigans without being annoying.
Yes, I am aware of Rofellos. I just want to say that unless it locks players out, no commander should be banned. Rofellos still being banned is kinda weird.
Urza is just strong. But any stronger than Thrasios? Thrasios does the same thing but is 4 colors and 2cmc.
I don't know what "fair" means, but you can definitely play without being able to make infinite mana or do infinite loops.
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This analogy doesn't really hold up in my opinion.
Prosh and food chain is infinite all on its own and deterministically so.
Urza and paradox engine does nothing on their own and even when you get a bunch of mana rocks you are still not deterministically infinite since the ability can fizzle. Sure, with enough rocks and mana to start with you are very likely to be able to play your whole deck. But it is not a 2 card combo in the way foodchain prosh or flashhulk is.
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Paradox Engine meanwhile does nothing by itself because its reliant on other cards in order to fulfill its own trigger-based condition. It doesn't create nonland spells in your hand to satisfy its own trigger to untap nonland permanents.
I think this is more the point I would agree with. What Urza really does is demonstrate how this deck already exists in its horribly broken state, waiting for a commander to appear to fully utilize it (either by breaking its stax parity, massively accelerating its game plan, or in Urza's case both).
But there are too many high power artifacts that feed on each other's broken synergies to just outright ban them all. I tend to find these decks much of a muchness, regardless of who leads them, so that already drains much of the brewing appeal to me looking for optimal tech.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Does urza effortlessly generate enough mana every game to be considered a ban?
I'm leaning towards no, because he is a 4 mana card himself.
He's closer to the mana doubling RG guy than anything (Nikya of the old ways) in terms of mana explosiveness.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Has PE finally surpassed Ashnod's Altar of the "combos with air" title?
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Absolutely.
PE reminds me of my buddy's Ghave deck that consisted almost entirely of "cards that combo with Ghave, or combo with cards that combo with Ghave." I pointed out combos he had on board but hadn't recognized at least 3 times. I should have named it the 2 degrees of Ghaven Bacon, but never thought of it until now
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Modern: B 8RACK B
EDH: BRU Mishra, Artificer Prodigy BRU, W Kemba, Kha Regent W, B Ghoulcaller Gisa B, BU Oona, Queen of the Fae BU, G Seton, Krosan Protector G, BW Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim BW, R Purphoros, God of the Forge R, UGW Arcades, the Strategist UGW, GW Karametra, God of Harvests GW, GU Edric, Spymaster of Trest GU, UW Grand Arbiter Augustin IV UW, BRW Kaalia of the Vast BRW, BRU Nekusar, the Mindrazer BRU, BGWU Thrasios, Triton Hero/Tymna the Weaver BGWU
Agreed with Pokken. Engine does so much ridiculous shenanigans on a consistent basis that it is, quite simply, one of the most powerful Artifacts to have been printed in a long time. Are you playing mana rocks/dorks? This card lets you refund your resources FOR FREE to cast any and all of your spells. It's one of the few cards that I've ever preordered and I haven't yet regretted my decision.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
when you complicate this a tiny bit, add what you have in hand, presumably some number of 0-2 cmc artifacts, it heightens the chances of it 'going off'. And you're also removing the probability of having something like sceptre+that untapping instant, making you go off 'inevitably'. Sort of like the deck "four horsemen".
That being said, it's nowhere near as bad as food chain prosh.
Urza is fine. I suspect urza is going to find a space in other artifact-based decks more often than he will be as the main lead.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I would think a lot of it is people finally having Urza as a general.
To me, what differentiates this from Rofellos is Rofellos can let you cast a 6 mana spell on turn 3 if all you did was play lands and your general. Every game, turn 3 6-drop.
Urza will have fast starts, but not nearly the consistency of Rofellos.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
True, but casting a random card from your library for 5 mana is not banworthy, nor is it even particularly strong.
The card as a whole is obviously strong, but that line of play isn't.