So, Narset, Parter of Veils. She's already making a splash in Legacy and I expect her to see play in Modern as well. I also fully expect to see complaints about her before too long, so I figured, why not start a discussion thread?
SSee, Narset is very much like a card that is already on the banlist: Leovold, Emissary of Trest. In that they're both 3-mana cards that prevent anyone from drawing more than 1 card each turn, and subsequently cause a lock with Teferi's Puzzle Box. However, they both have their pros and cons as well.
NARSET:
Mono blue - more deck variety
Planeswalkers are generally harder to quickly remove than creatures
Has a useful additional ability
LEOVOLD:
Can be your commander
Easier to recur and tutor by virtue of being a creature
Cannot be directly attacked, making him a bit more resilient vs aggressive decks.
The obvious talking point here is the fact that Leovold can in fact be played from the command zone, granting permanent access to him. I have no doubts that if Narset could be your commander, she too would face the banhammer.
So that begs the question; would Leovold be banned in the 99 would the Banned as a Commander list still exist? My gut says no - and I have a big gut so it'd know. But this is also where Narset's other advantages come into play. Despite her double-blue cost she's more splashable, she's harder to remove if the opposition holds no stronger board position, but she locks out a table just as fast.
Personally, I don't believe Narset is worthy of a ban, though she is something to keep an eye on, and will sprout more discussion, but I'm interested in hearing what others think.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I don't see her getting banned. Spirit of the Labyrinth is fine. Notion Thief is fine.
She may be harder to target with spot removal but she is also harder to recur.
I think any card that cannot be your commander with that singular ability should be left alone. If it also stopped library searching, or some other item that is going to create undesirable game states I could see more of a discussion.
Being CA and mono-blue is going to give it a lot more traction in 60 card competitive formats.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
She is fine, for the reasons stated. Plenty of cards exist that have abilities similar to Leovold, and they aren't Leovold. Commander is not Vintage, Legacy or Modern.
I am going to be honest when I say, I never expected to see someone discussing this card as possibly banworthy for commander. I would have to see a LOT of evidence that I don't particularly see as likely for me to think anything of her for this format. To be honest, I don't feel like she is really all that playable in commander not to mention ban worthy.
She is incredibly annoying with wheel effects but I would say she isn't really a new thing for commander. Leovold was only problematic in that they could be your commander. In the 99, I don't particularly think these effects are problematic.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I don't think there's much to add beyond Lou's analysis. Her not being able to be a commander is the biggest reason she isn't bannable. This is a fair effect in the 99 and only becomes a problem when it can be consistently cast early and backed up with wheel effects, which requires being a commander.
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There is a stark difference between something that is a one shot pony and something that can be forcibly played over an over until you can create a lock.
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I don't see her eating a ban any more than Notion Thief would tbh, especially since she isn't available in the command zone.
In the Oathbreaker variant however, she absolutely should be considered for a ban. Constant access to her + Windfall or Time Twister has been a pain even when focused.
I don't see her eating a ban any more than Notion Thief would tbh, especially since she isn't available in the command zone.
In the Oathbreaker variant however, she absolutely should be considered for a ban. Constant access to her + Windfall or Time Twister has been a pain even when focused.
That's why Oathbreaker is a bad idea, imo. Too many PWs should be banned as commanders and having access to a spell like that is just crazy.
so i guess no one's seen narset played in a time spiral+high tide (legacy) deck. when the first high tide hits, the opponent ditches hand and draws 1. it's pretty sick.
But in EDH, it's not really back-breaking. I decided to throw things like narset into a deck with anvil of bogardan, teferi's puzzle box and other wheel effects. It's VERY good, but it's not as oppressive as you'd expect. As long as she's not going to be playable as a general, then it's probably fine.
Also, unlike leovold, and enchantments, narset is directly attackable.
Comparing Leovold whi has 3 best colors and sits in commandzone to a PW...
Really?
Did you read his post or just knee jerk reaction?
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
While Narset is a powerful synergy piece in conjunction with Wheel effects (I'm a cEDH player by nature...), she's particularly vulnerable in that an opponent can simply attack into her and get rid of the effect. By having such a reliable way (technically speaking) to get rid of this effect without changing your deck composition (do you play creatures? Yes? You're good) makes her another puzzle to navigate in the context of a game.
But, she IS hella strong with Wheel effects and I'm extremely pleased to slam her into my Memnarch, Teferi, and Aminatou decks.
While Narset is a powerful synergy piece in conjunction with Wheel effects (I'm a cEDH player by nature...), she's particularly vulnerable in that an opponent can simply attack into her and get rid of the effect. By having such a reliable way (technically speaking) to get rid of this effect without changing your deck composition (do you play creatures? Yes? You're good) makes her another puzzle to navigate in the context of a game.
But, she IS hella strong with Wheel effects and I'm extremely pleased to slam her into my Memnarch, Teferi, and Aminatou decks.
I'm generally going to prefer notion thief where I can run him, because you can drop him in response to someone whose about to draw a bunch of cards (or who cast a wheel of their own), which is a real windmill slam moment. Which of the two is more vulnerable is very meta dependant. Notion Thief dies to a stiff breeze, while many decks will not be able to effectively attack Narset (and many decks that would run her can effectively protect her).
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I don't see her eating a ban any more than Notion Thief would tbh, especially since she isn't available in the command zone.
In the Oathbreaker variant however, she absolutely should be considered for a ban. Constant access to her + Windfall or Time Twister has been a pain even when focused.
That's why Oathbreaker is a bad idea, imo. Too many PWs should be banned as commanders and having access to a spell like that is just crazy.
Yeah no kidding.
Imagine a general that forms a 2 card combo being legal.
I don't see her eating a ban any more than Notion Thief would tbh, especially since she isn't available in the command zone.
In the Oathbreaker variant however, she absolutely should be considered for a ban. Constant access to her + Windfall or Time Twister has been a pain even when focused.
That's why Oathbreaker is a bad idea, imo. Too many PWs should be banned as commanders and having access to a spell like that is just crazy.
Yeah no kidding.
Imagine a general that forms a 2 card combo being legal.
(I would be for banning narset if planeswalkers became legal but please don't act like commander is some weak format that can't handle strong cards)
Do you even know what Oathbreaker is? Two card combos with one sitting in the command zone are bad enough, but when BOTH sit in the command zone (or one plus a tutor sit in the command zone) its a whole extra level of broken. That much should be pretty obvious. Narset plus windfall both in the command zone would be worse than Leovold, which got banned quickly. Oathbreaker invites this by its very nature.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Yea, I’m not really expecting it to get banned in oathbreaker, and definitely not in edh. My narset build powers narset turn 2-3, then transmute artifact for teferis puzzle box next turn, but it’s far from the most egregious combo deck I happen to have.
It’s not the strongest oathbreaker combo tho; but definitely up there.
Personally, I don’t really mind it because:
1. It gets boring quick, so it’s not like I expect players to be whipping it out so often
2. It’s a pretty fragile combo
3. Games are so quick anyways, so it doesn’t really matter all that much.
That’s just for me tho, but I don’t see narset getting banned in edh nor oathbreaker.
Isn't Leovold banned in Oathbreaker for doing exactly what Narset does in Oathbreaker?
The larger point stands though, that Oathbreaker is kind of a dumb idea because it so easily translates into "EDH, but intentionally broken"
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Isn't Leovold banned in Oathbreaker for doing exactly what Narset does in Oathbreaker?
The larger point stands though, that Oathbreaker is kind of a dumb idea because it so easily translates into "EDH, but intentionally broken"
Well, sorta:
1. Narset invites getting directly attacked though (creatures being 1st or 2nd most commonly played card type in EDH), and it doesn't have the "if i get targeted, leovold's controller draws a card" bit.
2. If the narset lock comes down , the game ends within 5 minutes, most likely. Just shuffle up and go again.
Unlike leovold, where other players still have 40 life, and are expecting an 'epic' 2+ hour game.
I dunno.. I kinda like the idea of oathbreaker just because they just lead to faster games. It's feels a bit like legacy/vintage but 'affordable' ('cuz not all legacy decks are expensive/not all oathbreaker decks are cheap relative to each other). EDH is, to be honest, just as broken. The only thing that's holding it together is the unwritten social contract that binds the players together. Oathbreaker has that too, it's just that the social contract just looks different [read: accepting of more broken interactions].
but you know... different strokes for different folks.
But back to the card at hand, I've not really experienced anything ultra debilitating while sitting across narset. She dies pretty soon after landing, and usually is nothing more than a 3 mana worse version of peer through depths/impulse
So, Narset, Parter of Veils. She's already making a splash in Legacy and I expect her to see play in Modern as well. I also fully expect to see complaints about her before too long, so I figured, why not start a discussion thread?
SSee, Narset is very much like a card that is already on the banlist: Leovold, Emissary of Trest. In that they're both 3-mana cards that prevent anyone from drawing more than 1 card each turn, and subsequently cause a lock with Teferi's Puzzle Box. However, they both have their pros and cons as well.
NARSET:
Mono blue - more deck variety
Planeswalkers are generally harder to quickly remove than creatures
Has a useful additional ability
LEOVOLD:
Can be your commander
Easier to recur and tutor by virtue of being a creature
Cannot be directly attacked, making him a bit more resilient vs aggressive decks.
The obvious talking point here is the fact that Leovold can in fact be played from the command zone, granting permanent access to him. I have no doubts that if Narset could be your commander, she too would face the banhammer.
So that begs the question; would Leovold be banned in the 99 would the Banned as a Commander list still exist? My gut says no - and I have a big gut so it'd know. But this is also where Narset's other advantages come into play. Despite her double-blue cost she's more splashable, she's harder to remove if the opposition holds no stronger board position, but she locks out a table just as fast.
Personally, I don't believe Narset is worthy of a ban, though she is something to keep an eye on, and will sprout more discussion, but I'm interested in hearing what others think.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
She may be harder to target with spot removal but she is also harder to recur.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
She can't be your general so you're not building a deck around her.
She's the hardest card type to tutor for.
Let's not go all chicken little just yet.
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Being CA and mono-blue is going to give it a lot more traction in 60 card competitive formats.
(Also known as Xenphire)
She is incredibly annoying with wheel effects but I would say she isn't really a new thing for commander. Leovold was only problematic in that they could be your commander. In the 99, I don't particularly think these effects are problematic.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
In the Oathbreaker variant however, she absolutely should be considered for a ban. Constant access to her + Windfall or Time Twister has been a pain even when focused.
Really?
That's why Oathbreaker is a bad idea, imo. Too many PWs should be banned as commanders and having access to a spell like that is just crazy.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
But in EDH, it's not really back-breaking. I decided to throw things like narset into a deck with anvil of bogardan, teferi's puzzle box and other wheel effects. It's VERY good, but it's not as oppressive as you'd expect. As long as she's not going to be playable as a general, then it's probably fine.
Also, unlike leovold, and enchantments, narset is directly attackable.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Did you read his post or just knee jerk reaction?
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
But, she IS hella strong with Wheel effects and I'm extremely pleased to slam her into my Memnarch, Teferi, and Aminatou decks.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I'm generally going to prefer notion thief where I can run him, because you can drop him in response to someone whose about to draw a bunch of cards (or who cast a wheel of their own), which is a real windmill slam moment. Which of the two is more vulnerable is very meta dependant. Notion Thief dies to a stiff breeze, while many decks will not be able to effectively attack Narset (and many decks that would run her can effectively protect her).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Yeah no kidding.
Imagine a general that forms a 2 card combo being legal.
food chain prossh, skyraider of kher
paradox engine captain sisay
helm of the host Aurelia, the Warleader
knowledge pool teferi, mage of zhalfir
eater of the dead phenax, god of deception
curiosity niv-mizzet, the firemind
Thank god that'll never happen
(I would be for banning narset if planeswalkers became legal but please don't act like commander is some weak format that can't handle strong cards)
Do you even know what Oathbreaker is? Two card combos with one sitting in the command zone are bad enough, but when BOTH sit in the command zone (or one plus a tutor sit in the command zone) its a whole extra level of broken. That much should be pretty obvious. Narset plus windfall both in the command zone would be worse than Leovold, which got banned quickly. Oathbreaker invites this by its very nature.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It’s not the strongest oathbreaker combo tho; but definitely up there.
Personally, I don’t really mind it because:
1. It gets boring quick, so it’s not like I expect players to be whipping it out so often
2. It’s a pretty fragile combo
3. Games are so quick anyways, so it doesn’t really matter all that much.
That’s just for me tho, but I don’t see narset getting banned in edh nor oathbreaker.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
The larger point stands though, that Oathbreaker is kind of a dumb idea because it so easily translates into "EDH, but intentionally broken"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Well, sorta:
1. Narset invites getting directly attacked though (creatures being 1st or 2nd most commonly played card type in EDH), and it doesn't have the "if i get targeted, leovold's controller draws a card" bit.
2. If the narset lock comes down , the game ends within 5 minutes, most likely. Just shuffle up and go again.
Unlike leovold, where other players still have 40 life, and are expecting an 'epic' 2+ hour game.
I dunno.. I kinda like the idea of oathbreaker just because they just lead to faster games. It's feels a bit like legacy/vintage but 'affordable' ('cuz not all legacy decks are expensive/not all oathbreaker decks are cheap relative to each other). EDH is, to be honest, just as broken. The only thing that's holding it together is the unwritten social contract that binds the players together. Oathbreaker has that too, it's just that the social contract just looks different [read: accepting of more broken interactions].
but you know... different strokes for different folks.
But back to the card at hand, I've not really experienced anything ultra debilitating while sitting across narset. She dies pretty soon after landing, and usually is nothing more than a 3 mana worse version of peer through depths/impulse
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom