Several top cEDH decks have Food Chain as the main win-condition and build around card. I'm a little tired of playing it, and of seeing it.
However, Commander is not cEDH! So here's my question: Is your average Joe using Food Chain in a fair way? Or is it still being slotted into Prossh precons and causing unenjoyable experiences for an otherwise casual table? I'd love to hear some other personal experiences about this card.
Several top cEDH decks have Food Chain as the main win-condition and build around card. I'm a little tired of playing it, and of seeing it.
However, Commander is not cEDH! So here's my question: Is your average Joe using Food Chain in a fair way? Or is it still being slotted into Prossh precons and causing unenjoyable experiences for an otherwise casual table? I'd love to hear some other personal experiences about this card.
I have only ever seen it in dedicated combo decks like Prossh and Tazri. I'm not a fan of cards that are two card combos with the general (especially if that general gives you access to the necessary tutors), but I also know the ban list would have to grow noticeably if we were to ban every card that combos with a general.
I have only ever seen it in dedicated combo decks like Prossh and Tazri. I'm not a fan of cards that are two card combos with the general (especially if that general gives you access to the necessary tutors), but I also know the ban list would have to grow noticeably if we were to ban every card that combos with a general.
I agree with the sentiment but I guess there is the valid question of if there are fair uses of the card? Obviously you don't have to combo with it but at its price tag and its limitation of exile sacing it might be a valid question to ask how often it is run as a fair card. I know to some extent Hermit Druid was defended by the fact that it has fair potential in a mill deck who just wants to push some of their deck into grave.
Is there really much room for Food Chain as a fair non infinite combo?
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Is there really much room for Food Chain as a fair non infinite combo?
I have personally only seen Food Chain in Prossh and Maelstrom Wanderer (and I know Tazri runs it, but I haven't ever played against Food Chain Tazri).
Food Chain Prossh gives you infinite tokens and mana to spend on creatures. Food Chain Maelstrom Wanderer is not infinite, just vomits a bunch of cards onto the table; but you can get that with things like Genesis Wave and Primal Surge anyway.
I've only ever seen Food Chain in Prossh, Skyraider of Kher (where i've played it myself for a short while), General Tazri and included in Squee, the Immortal shenanigans. All three instances mean whoever's dropping them is balling hard. Usually those decks are up against others of similar strength, so it's propably fine there.
In strictly casual enviroments it's obviously OP and dumb af. I'd go out of my way voicing my discontent with bringing it to such tables. But tbh, that's a player problem, not a card one. If we were to ban miserable two card combos we were to ban Curiosity and others too, despite the fact there are propably plenty of fair uses for some of them.
As far as boring cards go it's pretty far up my list, as far as banworthy ones go, it's not.
I am a lot more understanding if there are legitimate uses for cards. Honestly I didn't know that Food Chain was a card until they spoiled Prossh and I had been playing commander for something like four years before that. I agree that I don't want to lead this discussion to a question of what all can we ban because it can combo but Food Chain really is a card that I have legitimately never seen play in a fair deck. Thank you Lithl for the mention of it in that maelstrom list, I could see how that could be decent.
I don't know where I stand on its legality but like I said, I wouldn't be sad if it went because its price tag and general use all point at it not being a card that sees a lot of fair play but at the same time I don't like inflating the banned list. All of this said, I would rather we see some cards (Painter's Servant) removed from the banned list over adding more onto it but I wouldn't be at all sad if Food Chain were banned.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I agree with the sentiment but I guess there is the valid question of if there are fair uses of the card? Obviously you don't have to combo with it but at its price tag and its limitation of exile sacing it might be a valid question to ask how often it is run as a fair card. I know to some extent Hermit Druid was defended by the fact that it has fair potential in a mill deck who just wants to push some of their deck into grave.
Is there really much room for Food Chain as a fair non infinite combo?
Does that really matter though? Why should we go down the rabbit hole of whether a card is "fair" or not if it doesn't meet a threshold for banning? If it isn't ruining casual tables then it seems like this is a problem for cEDH to deal with.
Well being fair makes it more likely to have an impact on lower power tables generally is what I take from that sentiment. As it stands now it is majority a high impact high power combo card which is last we heard not in the purview of the RC.
I haven't really played much paper Magic at all since 2014, which happened to be shortly after Prossh came out. A few "oops, I'm infinite" moments still stand out in my head from another player slotting in just that single card to a precon.
The RC seems very clear about banning cards that seem innocuous but accidentally create a bad time. If you see someone else playing Food Chain in Prossh, you're going to want to give it a try, and then suddenly it seems bad to not run Food Chain. Is this no different from discovering Recurring Nightmare (also banned) combos with Palinchron? The outside use cases seem fringe.
I've only ever seen it played by people using cEDH decks. Never seen it outside of that handful of players at any of the stores I've gone to. Same way I think I've played someone using Flash Hulk maybe once since Protean Hulk was unbanned, but that was in a competitive group. With that in mind, I can't say I agree with Food Chain being banned or really even considered. It has a very specific purpose to a couple decks only usually played in competitive circles, outside of which it's generally not played. Ultimately, if anything, Food Chain is a play group power level issue that is easier to discuss with that player/group and comes with a certain expectation or conclusion. It's much different to the the Recurring Nightmare example, where that card could easily go in almost any Black deck and become ubiquitous for it's power level. In other words, Food Chain is confined to very specific decks, to very specific interactions. It's not how the general player base approaches the format.
I already lean towards the ban list being too big as it is, Food Chain is yet another example of a card that is insanely strong when the support for it is there but can come undone at a table full of players who know what the deck is doing.
Table talk is the great equalizer in the vast majority of situations and I most certainly think that the Commander Ban list has lost sight of this part of being 'social' when it comes to the format. I don't think we need yet another ban to protect people that have not quite yet learned the social complexity of a multiply format.
Multiplayer Commander has always been an anti-fragile format and the ban list, as well as players who like to leverage it, act as if it is instead - a fragile format.
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The real issue here is Prossh, I think. Food Chain as a card really isn't problematic, but Prossh can easily dominate casual tables while being even better off the back of Food Chain.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I have only seen food chain used for combos. Kinda like Mind over Matter, which combos with at least 2 generals.
I hate the card, and would love for it to be banned... but realistically it will never be on the banlist without banning a dozen other cards. It is not played enough to warrant a ban.
I haven't really played much paper Magic at all since 2014, which happened to be shortly after Prossh came out. A few "oops, I'm infinite" moments still stand out in my head from another player slotting in just that single card to a precon.
The RC seems very clear about banning cards that seem innocuous but accidentally create a bad time. If you see someone else playing Food Chain in Prossh, you're going to want to give it a try, and then suddenly it seems bad to not run Food Chain. Is this no different from discovering Recurring Nightmare (also banned) combos with Palinchron? The outside use cases seem fringe.
The difference here is that nightmare is always going to be good, even when you are just looping value creatures, and you can accidentally run into a combo. Food Chain is often just sort of ok. If you don't have a way to combo with it, it's often ramp that exacts a high price. I mean, casting acidic slime then next turn exiling it to casting Ulamog seems pretty fair to me, from a battle cruiser perspective, in the sort of way that entwining T&N to fetch a couple of eldrazi instead of a combo is fair. It's just a very, very spikey card that turns off a lot of players (why would I sac a creature to just get one more Mana than I paid for it?) who don't realize that it is as it's baseline a powerful ramp card, albeit a narrow one that opens you up to two for ones. So it's got a fair use (I'd argue that getting even more Mana by saccing a card that produces tokens plus the tokens is also fair), it's just that it's rarely used for that because it turns off a lot of players due to it's spikey nature and it's reputation from prossh. It accidentally combos with a few cards, but those combos are pretty good and for the most part well known and applied in cEDH. cEDH is the only place it caused "problems", though since cEDH is not a balanced format and more about just playing the most powerful things as tightly as possible it's difficult for me to see how problematic it is there, though of course it can be annoying seeing it over and over.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I see it rarely, but when I do its a mixed bag. I see plenty of people just upcycling used utility creatures or commanders. I also see the same amount of broken combo, but that tends to be at LGS etc, not my stable group.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I see now the difference with Recurring Nightmare, that it could be good for reusing random ETB for 2B whereas Food Chain is not good in most non-combo circumstances. (Still don't necessarily think RN should be banned, but I can see an argument)
Let's use a different comparison. Gifts Ungiven seems like a fun card for most, but perhaps too powerful for competitive players. Is this comparison more apt? Broken if you include it for combo but otherwise an interesting tradeoff?
I think if Gifts was ever unbanned it would be like 95% stapled to Unburial Rites and I am unsure how people feel about that.
I don't think there are enough esper+ decks to make this a reality.
I do think there would be a lot of witness/regrowth packages, and surely a lot of reveillark combos. Probably also some mikaeus/trisk combos, e.g. corpse dance/eternal witness/mike/trike or something
Leovold was a 'combo' with Windfall. Leovold was banned because all the decks were windfall decks.
I think it makes more sense to ban Prossh than food chain... and let people have their silly 'splinter twin' combo with Eternal Scourge.
Does anyone play Prossh without going all-in combo?
Leovold was a 'combo' with Windfall. Leovold was banned because all the decks were windfall decks.
I think it makes more sense to ban Prossh than food chain... and let people have their silly 'splinter twin' combo with Eternal Scourge.
Does anyone play Prossh without going all-in combo?
I do, as a Kobold Tribal commander. I've also seen him head up dragon tribal just because he's the outright strongest jund dragon. It doesn't take many cuts, primarily food chain, to take away the combo potential. And unlike Leovold, those builds don't push you towards the cards that make him problematic (going jund sacrifice does). The only deck I saw use Leovold that wouldnt lead to a problematic build was tribal elves. Because Leovold otherwise pushes so strongly toward a soft lock control style, anything you build of that nature is going to push straight toward the sort of decks that got him banned as you refine it. Prossh, otoh, has builds that don't naturally push to including his combos, so you adding food chain to kobolds would be adding a combo that doesn't compliment the deck (so it's just a random plan b you might draw), while adding windfall et Al in Leovold control does. It's easier to cut the former than the latter, because you can still refine the main purpose of the deck without having to justify not running the combo piece, while with the latter the combo pieces are cards that would refine the main focus of your deck.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
What's my opinion on Food Chain? The same opinion I have about every inexpensive card that combos with a commander that is difficult to interact with that sees zero use in fair decks:
I used to play FoodChainGoblins in T1/T1.5 and the card is nuts when abused. Three mana is the top end of what I'd consider cheap for a combo card in this format, but that it can then effectively replace itself costwise by using its ability to ramp into something, like, say, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher or General Tazri from the command zone offsets that. It demands an immediate response or you lose and frequently does so in the early stages of the game while many decks still have their pants down. If there's no countermagic or enchantment removal (the second hardest permanent to remove after lands) it's game over; contrasted with something like Curiosity et al. and the two Niv-Mizzets they combo with, which is stopped by countermagic, enchantment removal, creature removal, or bounce, I think it's fair to say that there is a distinct power level difference between the two and therefore can be discussed on their own individual merits.
All that said, I don't think the card is necessarily problematic for the format. There's a Prossh deck floating around here that plays it, but since it's got such a niche use it pretty much only sees cEDH play, as others have mentioned. I would personally vote to ban it for philosophical reasons, but pragmatically speaking I don't think it's doing active harm to the format by remaining unbanned.
I haven't really played much paper Magic at all since 2014, which happened to be shortly after Prossh came out. A few "oops, I'm infinite" moments still stand out in my head from another player slotting in just that single card to a precon.
My general thoughts on Food Chain is that it isn't a card that gets 'accidentally' broken/abused. It doesn't do anything super terribad when used fairly, or even moderately, and if you're combo-ing off with it - you know exactly what you're doing. Even the most obvious uses, such as those creatures you can cast from exile - if you add that pair into your deck, you know exactly what you're doing, and what the expected result is. There's no surprises.
To that end, it's not really any worse than most other infinite mana combos, or which there are many.
If you add it into your deck, you know that whether it's there to be a quirky ramp card, or if it's there to be an infinite combo - there's not much middle ground. And if you add it as an infinite combo, there's no "oops" situation there - you know full well it will infinite, and by that point, you should know exactly where your playgroup stands on such matters.
However, Commander is not cEDH! So here's my question: Is your average Joe using Food Chain in a fair way? Or is it still being slotted into Prossh precons and causing unenjoyable experiences for an otherwise casual table? I'd love to hear some other personal experiences about this card.
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
I have only ever seen it in dedicated combo decks like Prossh and Tazri. I'm not a fan of cards that are two card combos with the general (especially if that general gives you access to the necessary tutors), but I also know the ban list would have to grow noticeably if we were to ban every card that combos with a general.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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I agree with the sentiment but I guess there is the valid question of if there are fair uses of the card? Obviously you don't have to combo with it but at its price tag and its limitation of exile sacing it might be a valid question to ask how often it is run as a fair card. I know to some extent Hermit Druid was defended by the fact that it has fair potential in a mill deck who just wants to push some of their deck into grave.
Is there really much room for Food Chain as a fair non infinite combo?
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[Modern] Allies
Food Chain Prossh gives you infinite tokens and mana to spend on creatures. Food Chain Maelstrom Wanderer is not infinite, just vomits a bunch of cards onto the table; but you can get that with things like Genesis Wave and Primal Surge anyway.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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In strictly casual enviroments it's obviously OP and dumb af. I'd go out of my way voicing my discontent with bringing it to such tables. But tbh, that's a player problem, not a card one. If we were to ban miserable two card combos we were to ban Curiosity and others too, despite the fact there are propably plenty of fair uses for some of them.
As far as boring cards go it's pretty far up my list, as far as banworthy ones go, it's not.
I don't know where I stand on its legality but like I said, I wouldn't be sad if it went because its price tag and general use all point at it not being a card that sees a lot of fair play but at the same time I don't like inflating the banned list. All of this said, I would rather we see some cards (Painter's Servant) removed from the banned list over adding more onto it but I wouldn't be at all sad if Food Chain were banned.
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[Modern] Allies
Does that really matter though? Why should we go down the rabbit hole of whether a card is "fair" or not if it doesn't meet a threshold for banning? If it isn't ruining casual tables then it seems like this is a problem for cEDH to deal with.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
The RC seems very clear about banning cards that seem innocuous but accidentally create a bad time. If you see someone else playing Food Chain in Prossh, you're going to want to give it a try, and then suddenly it seems bad to not run Food Chain. Is this no different from discovering Recurring Nightmare (also banned) combos with Palinchron? The outside use cases seem fringe.
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
(Also known as Xenphire)
Table talk is the great equalizer in the vast majority of situations and I most certainly think that the Commander Ban list has lost sight of this part of being 'social' when it comes to the format. I don't think we need yet another ban to protect people that have not quite yet learned the social complexity of a multiply format.
Multiplayer Commander has always been an anti-fragile format and the ban list, as well as players who like to leverage it, act as if it is instead - a fragile format.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I think it'd start a slippery slope, because the card simply does not fit enough other criteria to make itself more of a problem than other cards.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I hate the card, and would love for it to be banned... but realistically it will never be on the banlist without banning a dozen other cards. It is not played enough to warrant a ban.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
The difference here is that nightmare is always going to be good, even when you are just looping value creatures, and you can accidentally run into a combo. Food Chain is often just sort of ok. If you don't have a way to combo with it, it's often ramp that exacts a high price. I mean, casting acidic slime then next turn exiling it to casting Ulamog seems pretty fair to me, from a battle cruiser perspective, in the sort of way that entwining T&N to fetch a couple of eldrazi instead of a combo is fair. It's just a very, very spikey card that turns off a lot of players (why would I sac a creature to just get one more Mana than I paid for it?) who don't realize that it is as it's baseline a powerful ramp card, albeit a narrow one that opens you up to two for ones. So it's got a fair use (I'd argue that getting even more Mana by saccing a card that produces tokens plus the tokens is also fair), it's just that it's rarely used for that because it turns off a lot of players due to it's spikey nature and it's reputation from prossh. It accidentally combos with a few cards, but those combos are pretty good and for the most part well known and applied in cEDH. cEDH is the only place it caused "problems", though since cEDH is not a balanced format and more about just playing the most powerful things as tightly as possible it's difficult for me to see how problematic it is there, though of course it can be annoying seeing it over and over.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Let's use a different comparison. Gifts Ungiven seems like a fun card for most, but perhaps too powerful for competitive players. Is this comparison more apt? Broken if you include it for combo but otherwise an interesting tradeoff?
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
I don't think there are enough esper+ decks to make this a reality.
I do think there would be a lot of witness/regrowth packages, and surely a lot of reveillark combos. Probably also some mikaeus/trisk combos, e.g. corpse dance/eternal witness/mike/trike or something
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Leovold was a 'combo' with Windfall. Leovold was banned because all the decks were windfall decks.
I think it makes more sense to ban Prossh than food chain... and let people have their silly 'splinter twin' combo with Eternal Scourge.
Does anyone play Prossh without going all-in combo?
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I do, as a Kobold Tribal commander. I've also seen him head up dragon tribal just because he's the outright strongest jund dragon. It doesn't take many cuts, primarily food chain, to take away the combo potential. And unlike Leovold, those builds don't push you towards the cards that make him problematic (going jund sacrifice does). The only deck I saw use Leovold that wouldnt lead to a problematic build was tribal elves. Because Leovold otherwise pushes so strongly toward a soft lock control style, anything you build of that nature is going to push straight toward the sort of decks that got him banned as you refine it. Prossh, otoh, has builds that don't naturally push to including his combos, so you adding food chain to kobolds would be adding a combo that doesn't compliment the deck (so it's just a random plan b you might draw), while adding windfall et Al in Leovold control does. It's easier to cut the former than the latter, because you can still refine the main purpose of the deck without having to justify not running the combo piece, while with the latter the combo pieces are cards that would refine the main focus of your deck.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I used to play Food Chain Goblins in T1/T1.5 and the card is nuts when abused. Three mana is the top end of what I'd consider cheap for a combo card in this format, but that it can then effectively replace itself costwise by using its ability to ramp into something, like, say, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher or General Tazri from the command zone offsets that. It demands an immediate response or you lose and frequently does so in the early stages of the game while many decks still have their pants down. If there's no countermagic or enchantment removal (the second hardest permanent to remove after lands) it's game over; contrasted with something like Curiosity et al. and the two Niv-Mizzets they combo with, which is stopped by countermagic, enchantment removal, creature removal, or bounce, I think it's fair to say that there is a distinct power level difference between the two and therefore can be discussed on their own individual merits.
All that said, I don't think the card is necessarily problematic for the format. There's a Prossh deck floating around here that plays it, but since it's got such a niche use it pretty much only sees cEDH play, as others have mentioned. I would personally vote to ban it for philosophical reasons, but pragmatically speaking I don't think it's doing active harm to the format by remaining unbanned.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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And Marath got errata to prevent her from making infinite 0/0 tokens before the decks even came out. Not the most thorough testing they did that year.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
To that end, it's not really any worse than most other infinite mana combos, or which there are many.
If you add it into your deck, you know that whether it's there to be a quirky ramp card, or if it's there to be an infinite combo - there's not much middle ground. And if you add it as an infinite combo, there's no "oops" situation there - you know full well it will infinite, and by that point, you should know exactly where your playgroup stands on such matters.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek