I was serving a religious mission when Griselbrand was printed and didn't play Commander to any degree during that time period.
As such, I never had the chance to play him as a Commander or in the 99. I totally get why he's banned from the format, and I'm not advocating that he should be unbanned ANYTIME soon. I'm mostly curious as to what it was like in playing with him, for the brief window of time that he was legal.
Depending on how many people share and what types of experiences they had with him, I'm going to attempt to convince my playgroup to unban him, if only just to give me a chance to play him in a Commander deck for a single game haha.
Nope, I remember when Emrakul was legal. It was truly awful. You know there's a problem when Bribery AND Emrakul are BOTH played in your deck. I hated when an opponent looped Emrakul with Crystal Shard (I was also relatively new to Commander at the time...).
As a commander, he was horribly well suited to abusing the format - not only was there enough fast mana to get him consistently T3, and sometimes T2, but you generally then had the life to immediately draw 35, usually hitting some more mana to immediately then combo or tutor for combo, or gain even more life to draw more. Basically, it was a very, very good "counterspell or die" deck. He wasn't quite so bad in the 99, as, unless you're building around him, you don't have either the consistency or the ability to combo off so easily from the draws. He was still centralising in a PrimeTime way though - the game became about him.
That said, I do wonder somewhat how bad he would be in this day and age. I suspect he would still be a bit to consistently good as a commander, but CEDH wasn't nearly as well developed as a format in Grisel's brief time in the spotlight and as such, there wasn't the overall power level at the top end of the game there is now.
As a commander, he was horribly well suited to abusing the format - not only was there enough fast mana to get him consistently T3, and sometimes T2, but you generally then had the life to immediately draw 35, usually hitting some more mana to immediately then combo or tutor for combo, or gain even more life to draw more. Basically, it was a very, very good "counterspell or die" deck. He wasn't quite so bad in the 99, as, unless you're building around him, you don't have either the consistency or the ability to combo off so easily from the draws. He was still centralising in a PrimeTime way though - the game became about him.
That said, I do wonder somewhat how bad he would be in this day and age. I suspect he would still be a bit to consistently good as a commander, but CEDH wasn't nearly as well developed as a format in Grisel's brief time in the spotlight and as such, there wasn't the overall power level at the top end of the game there is now.
Since you're using cEDH as an example, you are aware that the 'best' mono-black deck is a Razaketh deck that uses Sidisi, Undead Vizier as the commadere, right? Just reanimating a Grislebrand is 100x better than the additional hoops that the Razaketh deck needs to jump through.
Regardless of cEDH though, pretty sure that in general you can cheat out a Griselbrand faster if he's in the deck than if he's in the command zone. Tasigur can cheat him out with Eldritch Evolution very early in the game and any dedicated reanimator build shouldn't have much issues dumping him into the graveyard.
In a word, dumb. While there was no need to emergency ban him, it was clear from the get-go that he was getting axed at first opportunity.
This kind of explanation makes me wince a little. You make it sound like you had already made up your mind without giving him a chance to see how he is played. I don't contend how stupid strong he is and probably should have been banned ASAP (I say probably because I dont honestly remember if I ever saw a game with him before getting axed), but when almost every card on the list gets into heated debates based on actual experience, this feels like an odd exception. I would much rather the official explanation be that you anticipated how broken it would be and had discussed it as something to keep a watch on, and sure enough the feed back you got was instantaneously negative.
In a word, dumb. While there was no need to emergency ban him, it was clear from the get-go that he was getting axed at first opportunity.
This kind of explanation makes me wince a little. You make it sound like you had already made up your mind without giving him a chance to see how he is played. I don't contend how stupid strong he is and probably should have been banned ASAP (I say probably because I dont honestly remember if I ever saw a game with him before getting axed), but when almost every card on the list gets into heated debates based on actual experience, this feels like an odd exception. I would much rather the official explanation be that you anticipated how broken it would be and had discussed it as something to keep a watch on, and sure enough the feed back you got was instantaneously negative.
With Bargain already solidly banned, why would you expect a version of it that not only enables itself but is also easier to cheat out and recurr to recieve anything less than “instantaneously negative feedback”?
With Bargain already solidly banned, why would you expect a version of it that not only enables itself but is also easier to cheat out and recurr to recieve anything less than “instantaneously negative feedback”?
Sure, I'm not arguing that he SHOULDN'T have been banned and there wasn't already a strong argument for doing so without even seeing it in action. I'm just saying that I would rather see people complaining in order to solidify the prediction.
To use a not at all parallel example which hopefully works somewhat, we already have a number of "banned cards on a stick" that are legal. Most of them are worse, like the Magi, but Biorhythm dude actually got a decent amount of spoiler chatter. And the consensus was "wait and see", which lo and behold the sky didn't fall. I'm not saying that this wouldn't have happened if Grizzy had been allowed to survive the shiny phase when he was new and exciting, and like I said, I never saw him in action. Literally all I'm trying to say is that in a vacuum, I don't like the "it was clear from the get-go that he was getting axed at the first opportunity" justification, because to feel that strongly from a rules body who moves deliberately slow, surely there was something else.
Thanks for all of your comments, friends. I'm sad that I never got the chance to play with him and certainly concede that he's probably TOO strong for any type of cEDH. You raise some good points, BLoodyWednesday!
Thanks for the game transcript, Lithl. Yeah, that's pretty awesome that he was able to Storm off so quickly with Griselbrand. It would be even easier with Paradox Engine and Aetherflux Reservoir.
While I have a 0.00005% chance of convincing my playgroup to let me try Griselbrand for my wife's Kaalia deck, I realized that I had never actually gotten a chance to fire him off in-game and wanted to get a general feel for how he performed, hence this thread. If his legacy performance is any indication, he OVER-performed in EDH as well.
Except Biorythm on a stick has a tap ability and condition to activate him. Griselbrand works exactly the same as bargain except with a body + lifelink.
Would it have been nice if they had waited a bit more? Sure, but why would they. If they released Worldfire on a stick (ie some creature with some stats and “sacrifice ~: do worldfires effect”) it would likely be banned as soon as the next rotation hit.
it's weird actually, but he's legal in my meta (we play with only dexterity, sub-games and Un-cards banned), and no one plays him. I suppose we don't think it'd lead to fun games, so the thought never really pops up.
Generally though, i see enough of him in legacy that i'm happy to not have to deal with him in EDH too.
In a word, dumb. While there was no need to emergency ban him, it was clear from the get-go that he was getting axed at first opportunity.
This kind of explanation makes me wince a little. You make it sound like you had already made up your mind without giving him a chance to see how he is played. I don't contend how stupid strong he is and probably should have been banned ASAP (I say probably because I dont honestly remember if I ever saw a game with him before getting axed), but when almost every card on the list gets into heated debates based on actual experience, this feels like an odd exception. I would much rather the official explanation be that you anticipated how broken it would be and had discussed it as something to keep a watch on, and sure enough the feed back you got was instantaneously negative.
"From the get-go" means watching it in action over a few weeks at the LGS.
"From the get-go" means watching it in action over a few weeks at the LGS.
Ok. Coupled with something I recall you saying on a podcast about a conversation you had with the RC when it was spoiled going "yeah it's getting banned", I took "get-go" to mean from day 1 of seeing the card.
That was certainly our strong initial impression, and I'd like to think we collectively know a thing or two about Magic. Reasonably-experienced people can look at the card and realize how busted it is in the format. We were pretty sure it would go, then waited for the confirmation of seeing it live.
That was certainly our strong initial impression, and I'd like to think we collectively know a thing or two about Magic. Reasonably-experienced people can look at the card and realize how busted it is in the format. We were pretty sure it would go, then waited for the confirmation of seeing it live.
Yeah, I definitely think this was an exception rather than the norm. Like BloodyWednesday pointed out, this is almost strictly "banned card in a stick for one more mana" without the downside that most other comparable legal cards have. And as far as I know you or anyone else on the RC hasn't vocalized that they looked at a spoiled card and had a strong hunch it would get banned. So it's not like there is any sort of pattern I'm seeing. But at the same time, I just feel like your initial response without additional quantification makes it pretty weak and open for future pointing-to in other debates.
Hrm...I'm pretty sure at least I (maybe not the rest of the RC) said that I knew Worldfire would be going at the first opportunity. It was a long time ago now and I don't specifically remember saying it, but I do recall the feeling that it's a poster child for interacting poorly with the format.
Depending on how many people share and what types of experiences they had with him, I'm going to attempt to convince my playgroup to unban him, if only just to give me a chance to play him in a Commander deck for a single game haha.
Doesn't hurt to ask. They might say no, but if you don't ask, they'll never say yes. It's also a chance to have a bunch of fun. I'd recommend recording key events that happen in your games, or at least things that stood out to be memorable. When Sheldon started testing a Kokusho Unbanning test, I talked my playgroup into trying it too, and created a Chainer Deck to give it a shot (which also ran Grisel). I know that Cryogen runs a bunch of banned cards in his EDH cube, and one of the fun things he does is keep track of how many cards the Library of Alexandria draws each game. I also run a Grimlock, Dinobot Leader Commander deck which is technically not legal, but it's also a Dinosaur tribal pile of jank, so no one cares.
This kind of explanation makes me wince a little. You make it sound like you had already made up your mind without giving him a chance to see how he is played. I don't contend how stupid strong he is and probably should have been banned ASAP (I say probably because I dont honestly remember if I ever saw a game with him before getting axed), but when almost every card on the list gets into heated debates based on actual experience, this feels like an odd exception. I would much rather the official explanation be that you anticipated how broken it would be and had discussed it as something to keep a watch on, and sure enough the feed back you got was instantaneously negative.
Well, he did actually get to be played for quite a while, as I recall running him in my Kokusho unbanning test deck. He didn't really get much of a chance to shine or do degenerate things since I rarely saw him in the 99, and the one time I played him in the Command zone... well... Stigma Lasher happened on turn 2 (my turn 1).
What I can say, was that getting him to stick was quite often a degenerate amount of advantage. Even simply drawing a new hand every turn due to his lifelink was often more than enough fuel to suddenly take on the entire table.
Tried to find a game recap, but I don't seem to have recorded one, or at least not one I can easily find. I can say that no one was upset when he left though.
To be entirely honest - I'm getting quite fed up with Razaketh the foulblooded, myself. I find him to be very similar, and play very similar as well. The extra creatures are not an issue, and the two life per card, instead of 1 per 1, is hardly an issue since you just get what you want, instead of having to dig for it.
Hrm...I'm pretty sure at least I (maybe not the rest of the RC) said that I knew Worldfire would be going at the first opportunity. It was a long time ago now and I don't specifically remember saying it, but I do recall the feeling that it's a poster child for interacting poorly with the format.
I think it was rapidly discovered here too, that float mana, Worldfire, Zo-zu from Command zone was going to be quite dumb, and was very much not the intent of the card.
Except Biorythm on a stick has a tap ability and condition to activate him. Griselbrand works exactly the same as bargain except with a body + lifelink.
Would it have been nice if they had waited a bit more? Sure, but why would they. If they released Worldfire on a stick (ie some creature with some stats and “sacrifice ~: do worldfires effect”) it would likely be banned as soon as the next rotation hit.
You forgot he can also sit in the command zone
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As such, I never had the chance to play him as a Commander or in the 99. I totally get why he's banned from the format, and I'm not advocating that he should be unbanned ANYTIME soon. I'm mostly curious as to what it was like in playing with him, for the brief window of time that he was legal.
Depending on how many people share and what types of experiences they had with him, I'm going to attempt to convince my playgroup to unban him, if only just to give me a chance to play him in a Commander deck for a single game haha.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
That said, I do wonder somewhat how bad he would be in this day and age. I suspect he would still be a bit to consistently good as a commander, but CEDH wasn't nearly as well developed as a format in Grisel's brief time in the spotlight and as such, there wasn't the overall power level at the top end of the game there is now.
Since you're using cEDH as an example, you are aware that the 'best' mono-black deck is a Razaketh deck that uses Sidisi, Undead Vizier as the commadere, right? Just reanimating a Grislebrand is 100x better than the additional hoops that the Razaketh deck needs to jump through.
Regardless of cEDH though, pretty sure that in general you can cheat out a Griselbrand faster if he's in the deck than if he's in the command zone. Tasigur can cheat him out with Eldritch Evolution very early in the game and any dedicated reanimator build shouldn't have much issues dumping him into the graveyard.
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This kind of explanation makes me wince a little. You make it sound like you had already made up your mind without giving him a chance to see how he is played. I don't contend how stupid strong he is and probably should have been banned ASAP (I say probably because I dont honestly remember if I ever saw a game with him before getting axed), but when almost every card on the list gets into heated debates based on actual experience, this feels like an odd exception. I would much rather the official explanation be that you anticipated how broken it would be and had discussed it as something to keep a watch on, and sure enough the feed back you got was instantaneously negative.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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With Bargain already solidly banned, why would you expect a version of it that not only enables itself but is also easier to cheat out and recurr to recieve anything less than “instantaneously negative feedback”?
Sure, I'm not arguing that he SHOULDN'T have been banned and there wasn't already a strong argument for doing so without even seeing it in action. I'm just saying that I would rather see people complaining in order to solidify the prediction.
To use a not at all parallel example which hopefully works somewhat, we already have a number of "banned cards on a stick" that are legal. Most of them are worse, like the Magi, but Biorhythm dude actually got a decent amount of spoiler chatter. And the consensus was "wait and see", which lo and behold the sky didn't fall. I'm not saying that this wouldn't have happened if Grizzy had been allowed to survive the shiny phase when he was new and exciting, and like I said, I never saw him in action. Literally all I'm trying to say is that in a vacuum, I don't like the "it was clear from the get-go that he was getting axed at the first opportunity" justification, because to feel that strongly from a rules body who moves deliberately slow, surely there was something else.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Thanks for the game transcript, Lithl. Yeah, that's pretty awesome that he was able to Storm off so quickly with Griselbrand. It would be even easier with Paradox Engine and Aetherflux Reservoir.
While I have a 0.00005% chance of convincing my playgroup to let me try Griselbrand for my wife's Kaalia deck, I realized that I had never actually gotten a chance to fire him off in-game and wanted to get a general feel for how he performed, hence this thread. If his legacy performance is any indication, he OVER-performed in EDH as well.
Thanks again!
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Would it have been nice if they had waited a bit more? Sure, but why would they. If they released Worldfire on a stick (ie some creature with some stats and “sacrifice ~: do worldfires effect”) it would likely be banned as soon as the next rotation hit.
Generally though, i see enough of him in legacy that i'm happy to not have to deal with him in EDH too.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
"From the get-go" means watching it in action over a few weeks at the LGS.
Ok. Coupled with something I recall you saying on a podcast about a conversation you had with the RC when it was spoiled going "yeah it's getting banned", I took "get-go" to mean from day 1 of seeing the card.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Yeah, I definitely think this was an exception rather than the norm. Like BloodyWednesday pointed out, this is almost strictly "banned card in a stick for one more mana" without the downside that most other comparable legal cards have. And as far as I know you or anyone else on the RC hasn't vocalized that they looked at a spoiled card and had a strong hunch it would get banned. So it's not like there is any sort of pattern I'm seeing. But at the same time, I just feel like your initial response without additional quantification makes it pretty weak and open for future pointing-to in other debates.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Well, he did actually get to be played for quite a while, as I recall running him in my Kokusho unbanning test deck. He didn't really get much of a chance to shine or do degenerate things since I rarely saw him in the 99, and the one time I played him in the Command zone... well... Stigma Lasher happened on turn 2 (my turn 1).
What I can say, was that getting him to stick was quite often a degenerate amount of advantage. Even simply drawing a new hand every turn due to his lifelink was often more than enough fuel to suddenly take on the entire table.
Tried to find a game recap, but I don't seem to have recorded one, or at least not one I can easily find. I can say that no one was upset when he left though.
To be entirely honest - I'm getting quite fed up with Razaketh the foulblooded, myself. I find him to be very similar, and play very similar as well. The extra creatures are not an issue, and the two life per card, instead of 1 per 1, is hardly an issue since you just get what you want, instead of having to dig for it.
I think it was rapidly discovered here too, that float mana, Worldfire, Zo-zu from Command zone was going to be quite dumb, and was very much not the intent of the card.
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You forgot he can also sit in the command zone
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!