If I Cast a The Mimeoplasm (Commander) and exile Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon (copy) + Terastodon (counters). Give it haste and attack an opponent with no blockers, what of the following conditions are met when it comes to damage?
Defending player is eliminated by damage?
Defending player is eliminated by means other than damage (Poison)?
Defending player is eliminated by Commander Damage?
He would still retain his Commander-ness according to the rules. And there is where the confusion begins.
Well, for sure the infect would kill them. So in this particular situation commander damage is moot.
If attacking for non-lethal infect damage, that won't change their life total, so they definitely won't die from regular damage, even if they're already at 1 life.
Commander damage is a good question though - if mimeoplasm has infect and attacks non-lethally, then leaves and returns and no longer has infect and continues attacking, does the previously-dealt infect damage count towards commander damage as well? This is sort of tricky since it gets into the nitty-gritty of commander-specific rules that aren't under as intense of scrutiny as the normal rules that apply for tournament magic. So I'm not sure if there is a correct answer (though there could well be). But I'll happily speculate
My vote would be yes. cards like whispering spectre show that infect damage IS damage. And in order for "when ~ deals damage" to work, it has to be more than 0 damage. So how much damage is being dealt? Well, the obvious answer seems like "however much poison was inflicted". If mimeo had infect, it would still trigger saskia, the unyeilding for the amount of damage dealt, for example, so it seems reasonable that it would also count for commander damage.
He would still retain his Commander-ness according to the rules. And there is where the confusion begins.
Well, for sure the infect would kill them. So in this particular situation commander damage is moot.
If attacking for non-lethal infect damage, that won't change their life total, so they definitely won't die from regular damage, even if they're already at 1 life.
Commander damage is a good question though - if mimeoplasm has infect and attacks non-lethally, then leaves and returns and no longer has infect and continues attacking, does the previously-dealt infect damage count towards commander damage as well? This is sort of tricky since it gets into the nitty-gritty of commander-specific rules that aren't under as intense of scrutiny as the normal rules that apply for tournament magic. So I'm not sure if there is a correct answer (though there could well be). But I'll happily speculate
My vote would be yes. cards like whispering spectre show that infect damage IS damage. And in order for "when ~ deals damage" to work, it has to be more than 0 damage. So how much damage is being dealt? Well, the obvious answer seems like "however much poison was inflicted". If mimeo had infect, it would still trigger saskia, the unyeilding for the amount of damage dealt, for example, so it seems reasonable that it would also count for commander damage.
Normally, this would be moot. However, our league has an achievement for eliminating a player by means other than damage (infect scores here) and another achievement for eliminating a player with commander damage (no 21 damage clause). So some lean towards, the Mimeoplasm player still eliminating a player with Commander damage, but others lean towards not eliminating the player with Commander damage since it was not 21 damage in total.
I thought it was a good discussion to have, even if it is fringe, mainly because our group does not know how to handle it either.
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He wasn't technically killed by commander damage. Being killed by commander damage is only when a single commander dealt someone 21 combat damage. If you guys use some more technical definition for your rules then thats something else.
Same with infect, infect is combat damage. Unless your rules specify something else it wouldn't count as "being eliminated by means other than damage."
So the correct answer in normal circumstances is just A.
He wasn't technically killed by commander damage. Being killed by commander damage is only when a single commander dealt someone 21 combat damage. If you guys use some more technical definition for your rules then thats something else.
Same with infect, infect is combat damage. Unless your rules specify something else it wouldn't count as "being eliminated by means other than damage."
So the correct answer in normal circumstances is just A.
Commander damage is a tracked property of each commander regardless of if it is 21 or not. The Rule about 21 damage is simply stating that they lose the game as a state based effect. It does not elaborate on commander damage. The only other elaboration we get on commander damage is that it is a property of the object (commander).
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If his league has a point for eliminating an opponent with Commander damage without the 21 point requirement, then the only requirement you have to meet is simply connecting for enough combat damage to kill your opponent. We had something similar in a league I was in before.
OP posted a question in a general forum where people don’t know his exact rules, the expected answers will be ones that conform to the ‘normal’ rules of the game. Either way, that's why added things like the following to my original response.
If you guys use some more technical definition for your rules then thats something else.
...
in normal circumstances
If they wanted a rule for killing people with damage from the commander that is clearer the just use either:
A) eliminated a player by dealing 21 points of commander damage.
Or
B) eliminated a player by dealing combat damage with your commander.
(A) clears up that it’s only in that method, while (B) allows for infect or just knocking the player out with the commander even if it never connected before.
If I Cast a The Mimeoplasm (Commander) and exile Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon (copy) + Terastodon (counters). Give it haste and attack an opponent with no blockers, what of the following conditions are met when it comes to damage?
Defending player is eliminated by damage?
Defending player is eliminated by means other than damage (Poison)?
Defending player is eliminated by Commander Damage?
All the above?
If the player had not taken any prior damage, they are eliminated solely via having 10 poison counters.
If the player had previously taken at least 8 damage from the Mimeoplasm, they would be eliminated simultaneously by having 10 or more Poison counters and by having 21 or more Commander damage.
Under no circumstances would they be eliminated by loss of life putting their life total below 0 (aka "normal damage").
They will always have lost the game ultimately due to "taking damage from your Commander".
Whether or not this would fulfill your League's rules would depend on exactly what those rules were, since there's no universal guideline for League rules. If it says specifically kill them via "Commander Damage", you will not get the points/achievement/whatever (unless 8+ damage had been dealt by your commander previously). If it says that your Commander has to kill them via damage, then it will qualify, as damage is still dealt with Infect, just not loss of life.
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In general, as far as the game is concerned, it is irrelevant how a player loses the game or how many ways that player loses the game (review C.R. 104). If a player loses the game, for whatever reason, that player leaves the game (C.R. 104.5), and the game may or may not end depending on the circumstances (C.R. 104.1, 104.2a, 104.2c, 104.4a). In particular, a player who loses the game at the same time as another player, but in fewer ways than that other player, doesn't win that game.
If I Cast a The Mimeoplasm (Commander) and exile Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon (copy) + Terastodon (counters). Give it haste and attack an opponent with no blockers, what of the following conditions are met when it comes to damage?
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He would still retain his Commander-ness according to the rules. And there is where the confusion begins.
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If attacking for non-lethal infect damage, that won't change their life total, so they definitely won't die from regular damage, even if they're already at 1 life.
Commander damage is a good question though - if mimeoplasm has infect and attacks non-lethally, then leaves and returns and no longer has infect and continues attacking, does the previously-dealt infect damage count towards commander damage as well? This is sort of tricky since it gets into the nitty-gritty of commander-specific rules that aren't under as intense of scrutiny as the normal rules that apply for tournament magic. So I'm not sure if there is a correct answer (though there could well be). But I'll happily speculate
My vote would be yes. cards like whispering spectre show that infect damage IS damage. And in order for "when ~ deals damage" to work, it has to be more than 0 damage. So how much damage is being dealt? Well, the obvious answer seems like "however much poison was inflicted". If mimeo had infect, it would still trigger saskia, the unyeilding for the amount of damage dealt, for example, so it seems reasonable that it would also count for commander damage.
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Normally, this would be moot. However, our league has an achievement for eliminating a player by means other than damage (infect scores here) and another achievement for eliminating a player with commander damage (no 21 damage clause). So some lean towards, the Mimeoplasm player still eliminating a player with Commander damage, but others lean towards not eliminating the player with Commander damage since it was not 21 damage in total.
I thought it was a good discussion to have, even if it is fringe, mainly because our group does not know how to handle it either.
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Same with infect, infect is combat damage. Unless your rules specify something else it wouldn't count as "being eliminated by means other than damage."
So the correct answer in normal circumstances is just A.
Also relevant rules on infect are here: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Infect
Commander damage is a tracked property of each commander regardless of if it is 21 or not. The Rule about 21 damage is simply stating that they lose the game as a state based effect. It does not elaborate on commander damage. The only other elaboration we get on commander damage is that it is a property of the object (commander).
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Getting killed -with- commander damage isnt the same as getting killed -by- commander damage.
No one would say that killing someone at two life with an Isamaru, if the person was at less than 19 cmdr dmg, was killing them by commander damage.
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If they wanted a rule for killing people with damage from the commander that is clearer the just use either:
A) eliminated a player by dealing 21 points of commander damage.
Or
B) eliminated a player by dealing combat damage with your commander.
(A) clears up that it’s only in that method, while (B) allows for infect or just knocking the player out with the commander even if it never connected before.
If the player had not taken any prior damage, they are eliminated solely via having 10 poison counters.
If the player had previously taken at least 8 damage from the Mimeoplasm, they would be eliminated simultaneously by having 10 or more Poison counters and by having 21 or more Commander damage.
Under no circumstances would they be eliminated by loss of life putting their life total below 0 (aka "normal damage").
They will always have lost the game ultimately due to "taking damage from your Commander".
Whether or not this would fulfill your League's rules would depend on exactly what those rules were, since there's no universal guideline for League rules. If it says specifically kill them via "Commander Damage", you will not get the points/achievement/whatever (unless 8+ damage had been dealt by your commander previously). If it says that your Commander has to kill them via damage, then it will qualify, as damage is still dealt with Infect, just not loss of life.
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See also this thread.