The idea that everything on the reserved list should be banned is ridiculous. Like everything else, those cards should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. I wouldn't miss Palinchron, but that is no reason to ban things like Tithe, and many of the pricey cards aren't even that powerful. Does anyone think Moat or The Abyss is more of a problem than any number of fast combo pieces?
The idea that everything on the reserved list should be banned is ridiculous. Like everything else, those cards should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. I wouldn't miss Palinchron, but that is no reason to ban things like Tithe, and many of the pricey cards aren't even that powerful. Does anyone think Moat or The Abyss is more of a problem than any number of fast combo pieces?
The only problem with them is that I don't own copies of them and they're too expensive for me to buy any.
The idea that everything on the reserved list should be banned is ridiculous. Like everything else, those cards should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. I wouldn't miss Palinchron, but that is no reason to ban things like Tithe, and many of the pricey cards aren't even that powerful. Does anyone think Moat or The Abyss is more of a problem than any number of fast combo pieces?
The only problem with them is that I don't own copies of them and they're too expensive for me to buy any.
i can relate. No chance I'm ever going to buy cards like that. I got my Moat out of a pack back in the day. I got The Abyss and Mishra's Workshop from Puca Trade, but that was back when they were a lot less high-priced than they are now.
Yeah, they would probably lose most of their credibility they have with the community, and quite possibly lose some standing with Wizards.
They sort of locked themselves in with that decision, in a way. What I really dislike about their current position is that it feels like a halfway-botched job. They selected only a tiny part of Reserved List to fall under the PBtE section back then and as time passed (along with the format's popularity and the general attitudes regarding the RL and Secondary Markets) it becomes more and more paramount to feel that they can never touch anything in the list (be it ban or unban) because it'll be awfully easy to accuse them of market manipulation.
I mean even a card like Palinchron which we all can agree is pretty much "unfun" and while it doesn't show up all the time enough to be an actual problem, it is the kind of card no one will miss when it's gone, the RC needs to take into account that it's a RL card to begin with, so unless it somehow becomes an actual problem in the format (which ironically the RL does inhibit to some degree), the incentive is for the RC to not ban the card since the risk of wrecking their reputation is greater than erasing the tiny amount of damage the card is inflicting to the format right now.
There's this weird threshold the RL sets causing reputation to be part of the equation that makes the scenario uncomfortable to me. I'm not accusing the RC of anything and I doubt even they had that far of a foresight when the format just begun, but I really wonder had the PBtE RL cards were not banned from the very start when people weren't as concerned about the RL... how much incentive would there be for the RC now to ban the more problematic cards on said list (especially considering how huge the damage some of them would wreck versus their no doubt significantly higher prices).
Sometimes I think cards like Thunder Spirit should just carry the sins of the RL and we all should treat the RL as a single unit - as long as 1 card is considered too powerful and must be banned, the whole list dies along with it. As stupid as that sounds, it's also quite true to some degree the RL is sort of an integrity promise that binds all those cards regardless of their individual power levels and while the RC didn't make that promise, the Secondary Market would not let them free of it.
But with that being said, it's also arguably too late to even try it, since even that decision will be hit by the full force of market manipulation accusations. So basically the only opportunity was the same window the RC had back then when they started the format and while I cannot blame them for not having the foresight (and me now and here having the hindsight), it will remain the half-botched job sore spot of the format to me.
Thing is, PbtE isn't just about price, it's about price combined with ubiquity, or rather the idea that the only thing that would restrict the ubiquity of the card would be its astronomical price. Even if Tabernacle, for instance, cost less than $10, it wouldn't be ubiquitous, and you can see that on mtgo. Timetwister is, I think (I haven't checked the price lately) like a $5 card online. Many blue decks don't play it. I'd argue that more should, as it's still really good even if the deck isn't built around wheels as a way to just refill your hand and recycle your gy, though if you need access to your graveyard or your deck doesn't empty its hand then it's not going to do much for you.
The moxen are an auto include in every deck that can run them, and because of color identity restrictions the more colors your deck is the more it benefits from their inclusion (having access to 4 moxen is a lot better than having access to one). Recall just makes every blue deck better, and three cards for 1 mana at instant speed is still a level of too many resources too fast that has yet to be reached. Its disgustingly broken even when you just cast it once and forget about it. Timewalk is similar, in that at 2 mana every single blue deck instantly becomes better by running it, and it's so much easier to abuse early that other extra turn spells. These cards aren't just powerful, or even broken, they are mandatory. They have all the problems of Sol Ring, except at a higher level, and have the additional problems of being color restricted and costing $3000. A card that feels mandatory isn't so bad if it's only a few bucks, but does turn people off if it costs thousands of dollars. Vintage compared to legacy at the time of EDHs birth was proof of this, as there were people who would play legacy but not vintage because of the power 9.
Personally, and this will be controversial, I think Black Lotus would be the least problematic to unban if not for price. On it's own, it a better dark ritual that isn't color restricted, and casual decks rarely run dark rituals.in cEDH it would be a house, but in casual a one shot of three colored mana is very strong but not super busted. You can definitely get stupid recurring it, but I think it would be more of a borderline card that a sure ban. In casual games, resource production over time is generally more important than getting a little more up front, so Sol Ring and Mana Crypt would probably still be stronger, and Lotus would be a little better than Mana Vault.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Thing is, PbtE isn't just about price, it's about price combined with ubiquity, or rather the idea that the only thing that would restrict the ubiquity of the card would be its astronomical price. Even if Tabernacle, for instance, cost less than $10, it wouldn't be ubiquitous, and you can see that on mtgo. Timetwister is, I think (I haven't checked the price lately) like a $5 card online. Many blue decks don't play it. I'd argue that more should, as it's still really good even if the deck isn't built around wheels as a way to just refill your hand and recycle your gy, though if you need access to your graveyard or your deck doesn't empty its hand then it's not going to do much for you.
The moxen are an auto include in every deck that can run them, and because of color identity restrictions the more colors your deck is the more it benefits from their inclusion (having access to 4 moxen is a lot better than having access to one). Recall just makes every blue deck better, and three cards for 1 mana at instant speed is still a level of too many resources too fast that has yet to be reached. Its disgustingly broken even when you just cast it once and forget about it. Timewalk is similar, in that at 2 mana every single blue deck instantly becomes better by running it, and it's so much easier to abuse early that other extra turn spells. These cards aren't just powerful, or even broken, they are mandatory. They have all the problems of Sol Ring, except at a higher level, and have the additional problems of being color restricted and costing $3000. A card that feels mandatory isn't so bad if it's only a few bucks, but does turn people off if it costs thousands of dollars. Vintage compared to legacy at the time of EDHs birth was proof of this, as there were people who would play legacy but not vintage because of the power 9.
Personally, and this will be controversial, I think Black Lotus would be the least problematic to unban if not for price. On it's own, it a better dark ritual that isn't color restricted, and casual decks rarely run dark rituals.in cEDH it would be a house, but in casual a one shot of three colored mana is very strong but not super busted. You can definitely get stupid recurring it, but I think it would be more of a borderline card that a sure ban. In casual games, resource production over time is generally more important than getting a little more up front, so Sol Ring and Mana Crypt would probably still be stronger, and Lotus would be a little better than Mana Vault.
I largely agree with most of this, except I think that Library would get a lot of initial use and then taper off as people started to realize how situational it was. Black Lotus similarly requires some building around to abuse, but it's probably worth a spot in most decks just for that one shot boost of colored mana.
[quote from="Yatsufusa »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/commander-rules-discussion-forum/799101-ban-unban?comment=53"]
Personally, and this will be controversial, I think Black Lotus would be the least problematic to unban if not for price. On it's own, it a better dark ritual that isn't color restricted, and casual decks rarely run dark rituals.in cEDH it would be a house, but in casual a one shot of three colored mana is very strong but not super busted. You can definitely get stupid recurring it, but I think it would be more of a borderline card that a sure ban. In casual games, resource production over time is generally more important than getting a little more up front, so Sol Ring and Mana Crypt would probably still be stronger, and Lotus would be a little better than Mana Vault.
I am not sure I entirely buy this a player jumping 3 turns ahead for the only investment being a single card even if it is only one spell would have the potential to warp things much more than you would think at first glance.
A 4 drop on turn one of EDH game is not something I think I would ever want to play with.
A 4 drop on turn one of EDH game is not something I think I would ever want to play with.
While I agree with the sentiment, I think it's worth mentioning that we already live in this universe, and it doesn't take something as busted as Sol Ring + Mana Crypt to get there either. Swamp, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal also gets to four, albeit with one more card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
While I agree with the sentiment, I think it's worth mentioning that we already live in this universe, and it doesn't take something as busted as Sol Ring + Mana Crypt to get there either. Swamp, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal also gets to four, albeit with one more card.
"One more card" when we are talking probability of starting hand is quite significant. It's not like you're comparing it to a functionally identical card that his a higher CMC.
"One more card" when we are talking probability of starting hand is quite significant. It's not like you're comparing it to a functionally identical card that his a higher CMC.
Well, yeah. I mean, it's Lotus. There isn't anything else functionally identical. I was just pointing out that you can already get to four mana on turn one, and it isn't some magical Christmas scenario either.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Thing is, PbtE isn't just about price, it's about price combined with ubiquity, or rather the idea that the only thing that would restrict the ubiquity of the card would be its astronomical price. Even if Tabernacle, for instance, cost less than $10, it wouldn't be ubiquitous, and you can see that on mtgo. Timetwister is, I think (I haven't checked the price lately) like a $5 card online. Many blue decks don't play it. I'd argue that more should, as it's still really good even if the deck isn't built around wheels as a way to just refill your hand and recycle your gy, though if you need access to your graveyard or your deck doesn't empty its hand then it's not going to do much for you.
That is why PBtE is "half-botched" to me - it was, bluntly put, applied so badly at the start that it looked like it was solely based on price and now that has locked its reputation along with the RC's, even if the whole criteria was scrapped later on. Price should not have been the factor from the start.
The one and most unique aspect of the RL is all cards on the list can technically be considered "not possible for it to become ubiquitous" regardless of power or price. Therefore PBtE should have had the first priority of identifying cards that would in normal circumstances become ubiquitous, but it's not actually possible to become so simply due to being on the RL. Needless to say, powerful cards that will become ubiquitous due to said power like the Moxen and Time Walk will make the list instantly, but this would cover cards like the Duals (which would no doubt be ubiquitous if they were cheap unlike Tabernacle) while leaving out cards that aren't so, like Tabernacle/Library and so on...
As I mentioned before, I cannot blame the RC for not having the foresight (especially when I'm here with all of the hindsight) back then, but PBtE as it was when they implemented was ridiculously a short-sighted criteria they set for the format... arguably the name itself might have blindsided them to mostly thinking about "new players would be frightened to see a $2000 card not banned in the format" rather than "Let's reinforce that this $2000 card is actually not all that useful in the format for most decks and that $200 land may not have be as expensive but is banned because it's ubiquitous but WotC won't ever make enough copies for it be actually so and the rising prices as a result will scare even more players later on."
That's the problem with the RL cards in the format, generally speaking - cards like Duals should simply be banned not because they are too powerful, but because they are cards that should be ubiquitous but aren't allowed to due to reasons (well, basically just the RL itself) other than price.
EDIT: To sum it up, in normal circumstances, a "fair" card (power-wise) that is ubiquitous should be free, but that cannot apply to RL cards because the nature of the RL makes it "unfair" for cards on it to even be ubiquitous regardless of its power and over time the nature of the Secondary Market would also cause its price to only go up - that is what I think PBtE should have set its criteria as.
I largely agree with most of this, except I think that Library would get a lot of initial use and then taper off as people started to realize how situational it was.
I have played with Library of Alexandria in Commander. I had others in my local area, of a variety of levels of play, add it to their decks with no other change.
It defines games, consistently. If your decks goal is *not* to cast One With Nothing, it is objectively wrong not to play Library.
That card needs to remain banned.
I have played with Library of Alexandria in Commander. I had others in my local area, of a variety of levels of play, add it to their decks with no other change.
It defines games, consistently. If your decks goal is *not* to cast One With Nothing, it is objectively wrong not to play Library.
That card needs to remain banned.
Hey, man. I don't think cryogen is actually advocating unbanning Library. He's just saying that, hypothetically, if it were unbanned, he thinks we'd see a lot of people jamming it at first and then a lot of people cutting it from their decks since not every deck is going to make great use of it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Hey, man. I don't think cryogen is actually advocating unbanning Library. He's just saying that, hypothetically, if it were unbanned, he thinks we'd see a lot of people jamming it at first and then a lot of people cutting it from their decks since not every deck is going to make great use of it.
That is correct. I have fought against PBtE as an outdated philosophy, but while I personally don't think that from a power level standpoint it would be bad for the format, I understand the reasoning that the RC has publicly stated and think the risk is not worth the reward.
We've also repeated that we're unlikely to in the future invoke PBtE because new cards are way more available than older ones.
Out of curiosity, since I don't pay attention to the secondary market much, when was the last time a new card went over $100? Leovold, maybe?
Karn, Scion of Urza was pretty at high at some point when Dominaria was just out. Here in Europe it peaked at around 80 Euros, so I assume it was more than $100 in the US.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
We've also repeated that we're unlikely to in the future invoke PBtE because new cards are way more available than older ones.
Out of curiosity, since I don't pay attention to the secondary market much, when was the last time a new card went over $100? Leovold, maybe?
I understand that new cards have a lot of availability, but there are a lot of Reserved List cards that have crept up in price that are equally hard to find. Are they not subject to PBtE? Library of Alexandria is 1500$, but Tabernacle is 2500$. Timetwister is even more. At what point do old cards deserve consideration for PBtE?
Leovold topped out at 60$.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy was over 90$ while in standard.
I can't think of any other cards that were around 100$ within a year of release, though there are a few that spiked years later, like Liliana of the Veil.
What was Jace, Vryn's Prodigy at its peak? Mtgstocks says 92.79. I remember that card reaching some monumentally absurd price while it was in Standard.
Karn, Scion of Urza was pretty at high at some point when Dominaria was just out. Here in Europe it peaked at around 80 Euros, so I assume it was more than $100 in the US.
Clicking the autocard link gives a TCG price history since March of last year. The TCG average peaked around $66. (Though the TCG high hit $1,000 last May, $300 in July/August, and $374.85 earlier this year, but those are all clearly abnormal spikes in the graph; the high has been more consistently at $110.)
Dunharrow, the category wasn't just about price, but the iconic nature of those cards--we didn't want them to become what you needed in order to play in the format. There are so many cards and choices fifteen years after the format's founding that there's no really a danger that Tabernacle or Library could develop that role.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The only problem with them is that I don't own copies of them and they're too expensive for me to buy any.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
i can relate. No chance I'm ever going to buy cards like that. I got my Moat out of a pack back in the day. I got The Abyss and Mishra's Workshop from Puca Trade, but that was back when they were a lot less high-priced than they are now.
Thing is, PbtE isn't just about price, it's about price combined with ubiquity, or rather the idea that the only thing that would restrict the ubiquity of the card would be its astronomical price. Even if Tabernacle, for instance, cost less than $10, it wouldn't be ubiquitous, and you can see that on mtgo. Timetwister is, I think (I haven't checked the price lately) like a $5 card online. Many blue decks don't play it. I'd argue that more should, as it's still really good even if the deck isn't built around wheels as a way to just refill your hand and recycle your gy, though if you need access to your graveyard or your deck doesn't empty its hand then it's not going to do much for you.
The moxen are an auto include in every deck that can run them, and because of color identity restrictions the more colors your deck is the more it benefits from their inclusion (having access to 4 moxen is a lot better than having access to one). Recall just makes every blue deck better, and three cards for 1 mana at instant speed is still a level of too many resources too fast that has yet to be reached. Its disgustingly broken even when you just cast it once and forget about it. Timewalk is similar, in that at 2 mana every single blue deck instantly becomes better by running it, and it's so much easier to abuse early that other extra turn spells. These cards aren't just powerful, or even broken, they are mandatory. They have all the problems of Sol Ring, except at a higher level, and have the additional problems of being color restricted and costing $3000. A card that feels mandatory isn't so bad if it's only a few bucks, but does turn people off if it costs thousands of dollars. Vintage compared to legacy at the time of EDHs birth was proof of this, as there were people who would play legacy but not vintage because of the power 9.
Personally, and this will be controversial, I think Black Lotus would be the least problematic to unban if not for price. On it's own, it a better dark ritual that isn't color restricted, and casual decks rarely run dark rituals.in cEDH it would be a house, but in casual a one shot of three colored mana is very strong but not super busted. You can definitely get stupid recurring it, but I think it would be more of a borderline card that a sure ban. In casual games, resource production over time is generally more important than getting a little more up front, so Sol Ring and Mana Crypt would probably still be stronger, and Lotus would be a little better than Mana Vault.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I largely agree with most of this, except I think that Library would get a lot of initial use and then taper off as people started to realize how situational it was. Black Lotus similarly requires some building around to abuse, but it's probably worth a spot in most decks just for that one shot boost of colored mana.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I am not sure I entirely buy this a player jumping 3 turns ahead for the only investment being a single card even if it is only one spell would have the potential to warp things much more than you would think at first glance.
A 4 drop on turn one of EDH game is not something I think I would ever want to play with.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
"One more card" when we are talking probability of starting hand is quite significant. It's not like you're comparing it to a functionally identical card that his a higher CMC.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Or maybe T1: Island, Lotus, Invoke Prejudice
Kinda like an actual T1 I've had: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
That is why PBtE is "half-botched" to me - it was, bluntly put, applied so badly at the start that it looked like it was solely based on price and now that has locked its reputation along with the RC's, even if the whole criteria was scrapped later on. Price should not have been the factor from the start.
The one and most unique aspect of the RL is all cards on the list can technically be considered "not possible for it to become ubiquitous" regardless of power or price. Therefore PBtE should have had the first priority of identifying cards that would in normal circumstances become ubiquitous, but it's not actually possible to become so simply due to being on the RL. Needless to say, powerful cards that will become ubiquitous due to said power like the Moxen and Time Walk will make the list instantly, but this would cover cards like the Duals (which would no doubt be ubiquitous if they were cheap unlike Tabernacle) while leaving out cards that aren't so, like Tabernacle/Library and so on...
As I mentioned before, I cannot blame the RC for not having the foresight (especially when I'm here with all of the hindsight) back then, but PBtE as it was when they implemented was ridiculously a short-sighted criteria they set for the format... arguably the name itself might have blindsided them to mostly thinking about "new players would be frightened to see a $2000 card not banned in the format" rather than "Let's reinforce that this $2000 card is actually not all that useful in the format for most decks and that $200 land may not have be as expensive but is banned because it's ubiquitous but WotC won't ever make enough copies for it be actually so and the rising prices as a result will scare even more players later on."
That's the problem with the RL cards in the format, generally speaking - cards like Duals should simply be banned not because they are too powerful, but because they are cards that should be ubiquitous but aren't allowed to due to reasons (well, basically just the RL itself) other than price.
EDIT: To sum it up, in normal circumstances, a "fair" card (power-wise) that is ubiquitous should be free, but that cannot apply to RL cards because the nature of the RL makes it "unfair" for cards on it to even be ubiquitous regardless of its power and over time the nature of the Secondary Market would also cause its price to only go up - that is what I think PBtE should have set its criteria as.
I have played with Library of Alexandria in Commander. I had others in my local area, of a variety of levels of play, add it to their decks with no other change.
It defines games, consistently. If your decks goal is *not* to cast One With Nothing, it is objectively wrong not to play Library.
That card needs to remain banned.
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
That is correct. I have fought against PBtE as an outdated philosophy, but while I personally don't think that from a power level standpoint it would be bad for the format, I understand the reasoning that the RC has publicly stated and think the risk is not worth the reward.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Out of curiosity, since I don't pay attention to the secondary market much, when was the last time a new card went over $100? Leovold, maybe?
Liliana of the Veil, maybe? New Karn and Teferi got pretty high, but didn't make triple digits.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
I understand that new cards have a lot of availability, but there are a lot of Reserved List cards that have crept up in price that are equally hard to find. Are they not subject to PBtE? Library of Alexandria is 1500$, but Tabernacle is 2500$. Timetwister is even more. At what point do old cards deserve consideration for PBtE?
Leovold topped out at 60$.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy was over 90$ while in standard.
I can't think of any other cards that were around 100$ within a year of release, though there are a few that spiked years later, like Liliana of the Veil.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)