So, imagine the EDH Rules committee came to you and said that you alone can save the EDH banlist. Only your experiences can provide the perfect list. You have complete control over what gets banned and unbanned with two caveats:
1. You must keep the banlist at 41 cards (not counting Un cards, Ante, or Conspiracies),
2. In order to ban something, you must unban something.
What would you ban or unban? And more importantly, why?
These both lead to really dumb, unpleasant games where one person has an absurd early lead, and they're ubiquitous boring auto-includes. A cancer to the format. Kill them with fire.
unban painter's servant and gifts ungiven
These are both potential combo pieces but have fun fair uses as well. Given that food chain et al haven't been banned, I think it's unfair to ban these two, especially since PS isn't even that good. Grindstone combo is ok but it only kills one at a time and fails vs eldrazi, and the consistency is much lower than, say, legacy. iona is a dumb card that should maybe be banned, but the combo is slow and disruptable. That basically just leaves Teysa, which I think is ok given that it requires a third piece. Gifts is more dangerous but I think it has a lot of fun uses and is just a cool card in general. TNN isn't banned, gifts shouldn't be either.
And then if I wanted to go deeper...
unban braids. Decks abusing her are antisocial anyway. She's fine.
unban library. Mostly just because I want it but also because, seriously, if I had to sit down vs a t1 sol ring or a t1 library, I'd take library without a second thought. Realistically it would get crazy expensive though.
unban recurring nightmare. It's not that busted and it's super cool.
ban DEN. I just hate this card. It's too easy to break and it's boring to lose to. Kill it.
ban palinchron. it's also dumb. Although in fairness it does basically only get used for combo stuff, so it's food-chain-esque.
ban omniscience. God, why does blue get all the stupid cards. Plus I'm sick of seeing it in M19 drafts.
Even without Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault, games can still devolve into the type of games you both are upset about.
It's not the fast mana that's made games dumb and unpleasant. It rests primarily on the power-level of threats that have been printed in recent years. This is clearly evident in games played with commander pre-cons where Sol Ring into Saheeli, the Gifted ramps into what?
Modern threats provide too much value before, during, and/or after facing removal. They are tough to interact with on favorable terms. And sometimes, they're even practically impossible to interact with. I cannot remember the last game I played where non-commander set generals out-numbered commander set generals. It's not fast mana making the decks/games spiral out of control. A deck with modern threats without old fast mana would probably beat a deck without modern cards that has old fast mana.
As for unbans and bans, Painter's Servant would be a cool unban since it's such a unique card. Unfortunately, it just leads to a straight ban of Iona (which is a big flashy angel and the type of card the EDH/any casual format is really about).
It would be my preference to only unban, since telling people what they can and can't play always feels bad.
Here are some unban suggestions: Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary (relic of the old ban list, doesn't lock anyone out, many other unbanned generals more dangerous) Braids, Cabal Minion & Erayo, Soratami Ascendant (relics of the old ban list, both require entire decks built around and has a mono-color penalty unlike Leovold) Coalition Victory (should be considered an achievement rather than a feels-bad)
It would be my preference to only unban, since telling people what they can and can't play always feels bad.
Here are some unban suggestions: Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary (relic of the old ban list, doesn't lock anyone out, many other unbanned generals more dangerous) Braids, Cabal Minion & Erayo, Soratami Ascendant (relics of the old ban list, both require entire decks built around and has a mono-color penalty unlike Leovold) Coalition Victory (should be considered an achievement rather than a feels-bad)
You had me till here.
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary: Simply too easy to abuse since Rofellos's strength is based on mana ramping and tossing down creatures sooner than others. Rofellos has been unbanned before but has proven to be still problematic even when allowed to be just in the ninety-nine.
Braids, Cabal Minion: Just because its a lesser evil in stax doesn't mean its safe. Also being mono color is not really that much of a weakness if its within the three horsemen that is BUG. As mono being a weakness only applies to R and W as they aren't very suited to this format and only recent years have gained some power thanks to more recent sets.
Coalition Victory: One of the easiest to fulfill win conditions. Your commander fulfills 25% of the win condition. The other 25% requirement is having each basic land type which can be performed in a number of ways like a scapeshift or a prismatic omen. Next 25% is just get 8 mana (3 colorless, 1 of each color). Final 25% is nobody has an instant speed answer.
why vault over sol ring? At least in common usage, sol ring is way more powerful.
Why not all three?
I think banning fast mana really hurts W, R, and RW, while letting G get further ahead.
As umtiger said, it's the uninteractible threats that ruin the games, not the fast mana.
The best (supported) example it Prime Time and Sylvan Primordial. Strong cards, but broken with DEN. Yet is was the threat, not the enabler that got banned.
Ban Derevi (absurdly powerful. Being able to flash without commander tax increase. Can't counter that with your normal counterspells (only stifle, trickbind and diallow) and taps/untap when it comes into play. Every creature yoù control that hits a player taps/untaps
Unban tolarian academy. If gaeas cradle is UNBANNED so should tolarian academy. Greens ability to vomit creatures and tokens is just as bad if not worse than blues ability to vomit artifacts. Cradle also allows green to start vomiting bigger creatures too.
Ooooh boy I love when these threads pop up. They really show peoples' knowledge of EDH and how aware/unaware they are of how broken the format truly is. To my core I don't believe the format can be treated as "competitive" in the slightest, therefore cEDH is a bit of a joke to me, albeit that's because the RC has made it this way.
Nevertheless this is my view on the topic; pretty much everything that is banned should stay banned because I'd break them if they left the banlist. As for what to ban...
Fast mana. Game can't really feel like skill is involved when you lose to someone before you play a second land. Thats just RNG. Who likes losing to RNG?! If I had to pick which exactly to ban I'd say its the cEDH's Power4 (Sol Ring, mana crypt, mox diamond and chrome mox). Banning mana vault after that couldn't hurt either. Once the fast mana is taken out we'd have meaning ful interactions with one another, not "race and ignore your opponents" type meta
Thrasios, Triton Hero: This slimy bastard is everywhere. When half the players at your LGS and many other cEDH circles play this little guy you know the RC has failed. He single handedly is putting a strangehold on the entire meta and is forcing everyone to build around him and compare their speed against his. Tymna the weaver just makes him even more broken. If your aim is to win, why build anything else?
Ad Nauseam: Most broken card in edh. Hands down. Who thought allowing "Pay 5 mana, win the game" would be a good idea? Either ban this silly card or lower life totals to 30 IMO. To be honest, i feel like lowering life totals to 30 would be the healthiest change to ever come to edh as it would allow aggro to be competitive and actually playable against combo. Maybe.
Flash. This with Protean hulk says "Pay 2 mana; win the game". Some mong really dropped the ball allowing this one to be legal. Coming across this makes you question who makes the rules for this game.
aetherflux reservoir: Probably an unpopular opinion I'll admit, but I feel like this was just too good of a weapon for storm decks. It made them go from highly playable to straight up "EDH is a game of combo". Its too good. Ban it IMO. Let em go back to tendrils of agony and mind's desire etc etc
Food chain: Tazri has become too consistent now and theres always gonna be commanders that will make the card say "pay 3 mana, get infinite mana". Just ban it to prevent further abuse.
Laboratory maniac: No, its not fancy. No, it takes no skill to do a setup with it. Doomsday for example says "pay 3 mana, win the game" with labman being legal. Its not fun to play against, takes not much skill to pull off after a little bit of practice and is just really unhealthy for competitive play in general. Ban this and it'll fix a lot of problems.
The chain veil: Card by itself is fine but combined with teferi, temporal archmage the card is beyond broken. Its format warping and should have been banned years ago.
Theres roughly 10 more format-warping cards but i'd say these are the obvious ones. Theres always going to be strong cards, but sometimes cards can be so broken when built correctly that it can make edh commander-selection feel like 15 commanders to pick from instead of 870+. No card should EVER say "Pay X; Win if no response"... Its just not fun after the first time for many, many people. I mean, you gotta remember this question is subjective too, so someone could come along and say I'm completely wrong and that winning on turn 3 consistantly is extremely fun and skill-based. Everyones different and theres gonna be a lot of differing opinions on this topic. Hopefully this little response gives you an idea of just my viewpoint on this anywho
Ooooh boy I love when these threads pop up. They really show peoples' knowledge of EDH and how aware/unaware they are of how broken the format truly is. To my core I don't believe the format can be treated as "competitive" in the slightest, therefore cEDH is a bit of a joke to me, albeit that's because the RC has made it this way.
Nevertheless this is my view on the topic; pretty much everything that is banned should stay banned because I'd break them if they left the banlist. As for what to ban...
Fast mana. Game can't really feel like skill is involved when you lose to someone before you play a second land. Thats just RNG. Who likes losing to RNG?! If I had to pick which exactly to ban I'd say its the cEDH's Power4 (Sol Ring, mana crypt, mox diamond and chrome mox). Banning mana vault after that couldn't hurt either. Once the fast mana is taken out we'd have meaning ful interactions with one another, not "race and ignore your opponents" type meta
Thrasios, Triton Hero: This slimy bastard is everywhere. When half the players at your LGS and many other cEDH circles play this little guy you know the RC has failed. He single handedly is putting a strangehold on the entire meta and is forcing everyone to build around him and compare their speed against his. Tymna the weaver just makes him even more broken. If your aim is to win, why build anything else?
Ad Nauseam: Most broken card in edh. Hands down. Who thought allowing "Pay 5 mana, win the game" would be a good idea? Either ban this silly card or lower life totals to 30 IMO. To be honest, i feel like lowering life totals to 30 would be the healthiest change to ever come to edh as it would allow aggro to be competitive and actually playable against combo. Maybe.
Flash. This with Protean hulk says "Pay 2 mana; win the game". Some mong really dropped the ball allowing this one to be legal. Coming across this makes you question who makes the rules for this game.
aetherflux reservoir: Probably an unpopular opinion I'll admit, but I feel like this was just too good of a weapon for storm decks. It made them go from highly playable to straight up "EDH is a game of combo". Its too good. Ban it IMO. Let em go back to tendrils of agony and mind's desire etc etc
Food chain: Tazri has become too consistent now and theres always gonna be commanders that will make the card say "pay 3 mana, get infinite mana". Just ban it to prevent further abuse.
Laboratory maniac: No, its not fancy. No, it takes no skill to do a setup with it. Doomsday for example says "pay 3 mana, win the game" with labman being legal. Its not fun to play against, takes not much skill to pull off after a little bit of practice and is just really unhealthy for competitive play in general. Ban this and it'll fix a lot of problems.
The chain veil: Card by itself is fine but combined with teferi, temporal archmage the card is beyond broken. Its format warping and should have been banned years ago.
Theres roughly 10 more format-warping cards but i'd say these are the obvious ones. Theres always going to be strong cards, but sometimes cards can be so broken when built correctly that it can make edh commander-selection feel like 15 commanders to pick from instead of 870+. No card should EVER say "Pay X; Win if no response"... Its just not fun after the first time for many, many people. I mean, you gotta remember this question is subjective too, so someone could come along and say I'm completely wrong and that winning on turn 3 consistantly is extremely fun and skill-based. Everyones different and theres gonna be a lot of differing opinions on this topic. Hopefully this little response gives you an idea of just my viewpoint on this anywho
I'm sorry, but "What?". I am not going to go into a lot of detail on your suggestions because your card suggestions seem to be based on issues in cEDH which are completely irrelevant for this thread. This is about Multiplayer EDH; cEDH problems don't matter to the RC. Suggesting Thrasios and Tymna is so broken that "If your aim is to win, why build anything else?" is laughable and ridiculous.
On topic: of the cards on the list, I think Painter's Servant and Gifts Ungiven would be the "safest" unbans. Recurring Nightmare would be my choice for a more aggressive unban. I am not sure how truly powerful it would be but the difficulty in answering it coupled with the repetitive nature does not bode well for it.
As for bans, I am honestly not sure. I hate MLD, but I don't think it needs to be banned (mostly because there are too many ways to accomplish it anyway). Maybe a swap ban with Iona, Shield of Emeria for PS. I think it already plays into a weird space with the format since the format is all about color restrictions. I am not sure that mono color decks need to be hated out so easily and PS would make this even easier. And, maybe Paradox Engine? I personally have not played against it in a couple years but others have commented that it negatively affects their play experiences. Otherwise, I don't really think there is currently anything worth banning.
Unban: Painter's Servant as, while there are some bad interactions, overall I believe the interesting interactions that this card allows outweighs them. There's a lot of cool "EDHy" stuff that you can do with PS.
Ban: Nothing really stands out to me, the banlist is (correctly IMO even though I do sometimes play competitively) not oriented towards cEDH, so things that are broken if people build around them with a competitive mindset aren't really relevant, and in general the kind of cards that can accidentally be broken have been eliminated already. Possibly Iona, Shield of Emeria if my unban goes ahead, as it already interacts pretty poorly with the format and is rather "unfun" in general and the Painter's Servant interaction could be too much. If it's one or the other, I'd much rather be able to play PS than Iona.
The chain veil: Card by itself is fine but combined with teferi, temporal archmage the card is beyond broken. Its format warping and should have been banned years ago.
Then you would also want to hit Doubling Season. While not for Teferi, its the other card that makes planeswalkers silly.
The chain veil: Card by itself is fine but combined with teferi, temporal archmage the card is beyond broken. Its format warping and should have been banned years ago.
Then you would also want to hit Doubling Season. While not for Teferi, its the other card that makes planeswalkers silly.
The Teferi / Chain Veil combo is far more powerful than Doubling Season / Planeswalkers, as one of the pieces is sitting in the command zone and the only other thing you need to win on the spot are are mana rocks, which you want anyway. The former is one of the strongest competitive decks in the format. The latter is something that is kinda good in casual environments.
Admittedly, if I was to ban one (I don't actually think either should be as IMO the banlist shouldn't be aimed at cEDH), I'd hit Teferi, as I feel TCV has more "non broken" uses across the board.
Ban fastmanathattakesovergames because they create undesirable games. Ban low cmccombo enablers because combo on turn 3 doesn't produce desirable games. Ban bustedcard draw because card draw that strong doesn't create desirable games. Unban funcards that shouldn't bebanned because they wouldn't disrupt the format and would open up fun deck options.
Unban tolarian academy. If gaeas cradle is UNBANNED so should tolarian academy. Greens ability to vomit creatures and tokens is just as bad if not worse than blues ability to vomit artifacts. Cradle also allows green to start vomiting bigger creatures too.
You have clearly never played against Academy. Academy's ability to explode far exceeds Cradle's, and creatures are generally answered far more often and easily than noncreature artifacts, to boot.
The biggest change I would want to make is to bring back banned-as-commander. Rofellos and friends are absolutely busted in the command zone, but making them in no way guaranteed to be available as soon as you have the mana (even moreso now that we don't have partial paris mulligans) and permanently answerable makes them fair, IMO.
Unban tolarian academy. If gaeas cradle is UNBANNED so should tolarian academy. Greens ability to vomit creatures and tokens is just as bad if not worse than blues ability to vomit artifacts. Cradle also allows green to start vomiting bigger creatures too.
You have clearly never played against Academy. Academy's ability to explode far exceeds Cradle's, and creatures are generally answered far more often and easily than noncreature artifacts, to boot.
The biggest change I would want to make is to bring back banned-as-commander. Rofellos and friends are absolutely busted in the command zone, but making them in no way guaranteed to be available as soon as you have the mana (even moreso now that we don't have partial paris mulligans) and permanently answerable makes them fair, IMO.
This is my feeling too, and probably swap PS and Iona because people seem very dead set on not having both at same time.
Unban: Painter's Servant as, while there are some bad interactions, overall I believe the interesting interactions that this card allows outweighs them. There's a lot of cool "EDHy" stuff that you can do with PS.
Ban: Nothing really stands out to me, the banlist is (correctly IMO even though I do sometimes play competitively) not oriented towards cEDH, so things that are broken if people build around them with a competitive mindset aren't really relevant, and in general the kind of cards that can accidentally be broken have been eliminated already. Possibly Iona, Shield of Emeria if my unban goes ahead, as it already interacts pretty poorly with the format and is rather "unfun" in general and the Painter's Servant interaction could be too much. If it's one or the other, I'd much rather be able to play PS than Iona.
Switching PS with Iona is one of the few changes I'd support right now. PS can be dumb, but has plenty of fun/goofy applications. Iona is only ever a feel bad. Its obnoxious in all of its uses, and the most broken possible use (dropping it and PS and naming the same color, which isn't possible with either banned obv) is better than dropping it for 9 mana and just locking one guy out of the game. I have never played this, or had someone else play it, and enjoyed what followed. She ruins games. She is a self contained undesirable playstate. It may not be enough to ban her right now, but if her being in the format is keeping PS out, then swapping them is the right thing to do.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Especially since Iona, Shield of Emeria gained a card that allows it to reliably lock others out of the game (Helm of the Host). Having also Painter's Servant just makes her that much more oppressive as a commander as it would provide another 2-card combo to lock the rest of the table out.
What kept her in check was that previously she needed to be part of a fragile 4-card combo (Iona + Crucible of Worlds + Mirrorpool + Mirror Gallery) to create more of herself. That her being mono color would mean that she would have to almost work as a mono white combo deck to actually function based on the rocks and tutoring in order to win a game as she basically forces everyone to surrender or die of commander damage. As white has plenty of ways to tutor for lands and artifacts (mostly equipment), recover artifacts and creatures from the graveyard.
Now is Iona going to the most popular? I would say "No". That there are faster decks that could kill than an Iona deck. That if anyone is running the cards that allow the controller to exile specific cards from the deck/hand/battlefield/graveyard. That while strong, she would create situations where the playgroup will stop playing with an Iona player unless they take out the painter's servant and helm of the host. That unless she has a servant out, colorless decks (or decks with some colorless answers) just laugh at her attempt in locking out players. That Iona will see a spike in play and then dwindle for the reasons listed before.
That Helm seems like a very slow very bad way to achieve that effect. That is 18 mana I would hope the effect is at least that good.
Okay, whats a faster method that doesn't involve servant?
Trick question by the way, as I know you can't provide that answer because I ran mono-white decks and know them inside and out for how to replicate the same process as I used to run not only Iona, Shield of Emeria but also Oriss, Samite Guardian and those were extremely clunky until Helm of the Host.
You want the old method for just Iona? Try 4 cards which is 19 mana initial investment and then each turn you are paying your land drop and 5 mana per turn for a total cost, spread over five total turns, of 39 mana. Suddenly that only 18 mana that comes with a passive trigger that doesn't eat up your land drop, five of your mana every turn, and two extra card slots sounds really good in comparison.
Also you know what is really fascinating about players? It only takes 2 upkeeps tops to lock out the majority of the table. Why? Because a lot of decks are multicolor and tend to overlap and when you hit on the overlapping colors, its like killing several birds with one stone.
Its also, hilariously, the only way to currently and legally achieve this effect using the rules as provided by the RC. So where are you getting your alternative?
Addendum - Also if you wanted to lock the table out of four colors in 2 turns you need:
1) A mirror pool
2) A crucible of worlds
As you would be spending an extra 13 mana. Also the reason you couldn't do this on the same turn as casting Iona is you would need to wait for the nonlegendary token created by the Helm to happen.
I could not care less about Iona comboing with helm. That's 18 Mana to maybe with if someone doesn't respond to the equip. If you don't try to do it all on one turn, then you either telegraph by sticking the helm first, leaving it open to removal, or sticking Iona first and risk either getting then helm countered or destroyed depending on what you named with Iona. It's an expensive enough combo that even having one piece in the command zone isn't a problem, even without considering that you're in mono white, the worst color for both ramp and draw (though you do get some equipment tutors).
The issue with Iona is that even her non combo uses ruin games. I'd rather someone lock out the board with Iona/Helm because that's a win. Just casting her and ruining one guys day is worse.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I personally don't have any problems with Iona and would be fine with it being unbanned at the same time as PS, my problem more stems from the fact that Iona is one of the main cards that is keeping PS banned and I feel that there is a lot of better interactions one can get up to with PS.
Iona represents a singular effect in the game right now and I kinda like the game having those.
(I think the angel is a bad creature and largely a win more and never the complete earth shattering card she is claimed to be)
That Helm seems like a very slow very bad way to achieve that effect. That is 18 mana I would hope the effect is at least that good.
Okay, whats a faster method that doesn't involve servant?
Trick question by the way, as I know you can't provide that answer because I ran mono-white decks and know them inside and out for how to replicate the same process as I used to run not only Iona, Shield of Emeria but also Oriss, Samite Guardian and those were extremely clunky until Helm of the Host.
You want the old method for just Iona? Try 4 cards which is 19 mana initial investment and then each turn you are paying your land drop and 5 mana per turn for a total cost, spread over five total turns, of 39 mana. Suddenly that only 18 mana that comes with a passive trigger that doesn't eat up your land drop, five of your mana every turn, and two extra card slots sounds really good in comparison.
Also you know what is really fascinating about players? It only takes 2 upkeeps tops to lock out the majority of the table. Why? Because a lot of decks are multicolor and tend to overlap and when you hit on the overlapping colors, its like killing several birds with one stone.
Its also, hilariously, the only way to currently and legally achieve this effect using the rules as provided by the RC. So where are you getting your alternative?
Addendum - Also if you wanted to lock the table out of four colors in 2 turns you need:
1) A mirror pool
2) A crucible of worlds
As you would be spending an extra 13 mana. Also the reason you couldn't do this on the same turn as casting Iona is you would need to wait for the nonlegendary token created by the Helm to happen.
It wasn't about there being an alternative it is about once you have invested that much I don't think it is a thing that needs to come up in regards to banning or not. I think that line of play is generally pretty bad and I don't see Helm of the Host all that much because for the effect it is a large amount of mana.
I wasn't saying there is some other cheaper way to do this, I was saying that doing this seems needless and pointless and as a waste of mana to achieve the desired effect is all and if you are going to put in that mana the outcome should be good.
1. You must keep the banlist at 41 cards (not counting Un cards, Ante, or Conspiracies),
2. In order to ban something, you must unban something.
What would you ban or unban? And more importantly, why?
These both lead to really dumb, unpleasant games where one person has an absurd early lead, and they're ubiquitous boring auto-includes. A cancer to the format. Kill them with fire.
unban painter's servant and gifts ungiven
These are both potential combo pieces but have fun fair uses as well. Given that food chain et al haven't been banned, I think it's unfair to ban these two, especially since PS isn't even that good. Grindstone combo is ok but it only kills one at a time and fails vs eldrazi, and the consistency is much lower than, say, legacy. iona is a dumb card that should maybe be banned, but the combo is slow and disruptable. That basically just leaves Teysa, which I think is ok given that it requires a third piece. Gifts is more dangerous but I think it has a lot of fun uses and is just a cool card in general. TNN isn't banned, gifts shouldn't be either.
And then if I wanted to go deeper...
unban braids. Decks abusing her are antisocial anyway. She's fine.
unban library. Mostly just because I want it but also because, seriously, if I had to sit down vs a t1 sol ring or a t1 library, I'd take library without a second thought. Realistically it would get crazy expensive though.
unban recurring nightmare. It's not that busted and it's super cool.
ban DEN. I just hate this card. It's too easy to break and it's boring to lose to. Kill it.
ban palinchron. it's also dumb. Although in fairness it does basically only get used for combo stuff, so it's food-chain-esque.
ban omniscience. God, why does blue get all the stupid cards. Plus I'm sick of seeing it in M19 drafts.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
And what would you unban?
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It's not the fast mana that's made games dumb and unpleasant. It rests primarily on the power-level of threats that have been printed in recent years. This is clearly evident in games played with commander pre-cons where Sol Ring into Saheeli, the Gifted ramps into what?
Modern threats provide too much value before, during, and/or after facing removal. They are tough to interact with on favorable terms. And sometimes, they're even practically impossible to interact with. I cannot remember the last game I played where non-commander set generals out-numbered commander set generals. It's not fast mana making the decks/games spiral out of control. A deck with modern threats without old fast mana would probably beat a deck without modern cards that has old fast mana.
As for unbans and bans, Painter's Servant would be a cool unban since it's such a unique card. Unfortunately, it just leads to a straight ban of Iona (which is a big flashy angel and the type of card the EDH/any casual format is really about).
It would be my preference to only unban, since telling people what they can and can't play always feels bad.
Here are some unban suggestions:
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary (relic of the old ban list, doesn't lock anyone out, many other unbanned generals more dangerous)
Braids, Cabal Minion & Erayo, Soratami Ascendant (relics of the old ban list, both require entire decks built around and has a mono-color penalty unlike Leovold)
Coalition Victory (should be considered an achievement rather than a feels-bad)
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary: Simply too easy to abuse since Rofellos's strength is based on mana ramping and tossing down creatures sooner than others. Rofellos has been unbanned before but has proven to be still problematic even when allowed to be just in the ninety-nine.
Braids, Cabal Minion: Just because its a lesser evil in stax doesn't mean its safe. Also being mono color is not really that much of a weakness if its within the three horsemen that is BUG. As mono being a weakness only applies to R and W as they aren't very suited to this format and only recent years have gained some power thanks to more recent sets.
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant: See Braids.
Coalition Victory: One of the easiest to fulfill win conditions. Your commander fulfills 25% of the win condition. The other 25% requirement is having each basic land type which can be performed in a number of ways like a scapeshift or a prismatic omen. Next 25% is just get 8 mana (3 colorless, 1 of each color). Final 25% is nobody has an instant speed answer.
I think banning fast mana really hurts W, R, and RW, while letting G get further ahead.
As umtiger said, it's the uninteractible threats that ruin the games, not the fast mana.
The best (supported) example it Prime Time and Sylvan Primordial. Strong cards, but broken with DEN. Yet is was the threat, not the enabler that got banned.
Unban tolarian academy. If gaeas cradle is UNBANNED so should tolarian academy. Greens ability to vomit creatures and tokens is just as bad if not worse than blues ability to vomit artifacts. Cradle also allows green to start vomiting bigger creatures too.
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Nevertheless this is my view on the topic; pretty much everything that is banned should stay banned because I'd break them if they left the banlist. As for what to ban...
Fast mana. Game can't really feel like skill is involved when you lose to someone before you play a second land. Thats just RNG. Who likes losing to RNG?! If I had to pick which exactly to ban I'd say its the cEDH's Power4 (Sol Ring, mana crypt, mox diamond and chrome mox). Banning mana vault after that couldn't hurt either. Once the fast mana is taken out we'd have meaning ful interactions with one another, not "race and ignore your opponents" type meta
Thrasios, Triton Hero: This slimy bastard is everywhere. When half the players at your LGS and many other cEDH circles play this little guy you know the RC has failed. He single handedly is putting a strangehold on the entire meta and is forcing everyone to build around him and compare their speed against his. Tymna the weaver just makes him even more broken. If your aim is to win, why build anything else?
Ad Nauseam: Most broken card in edh. Hands down. Who thought allowing "Pay 5 mana, win the game" would be a good idea? Either ban this silly card or lower life totals to 30 IMO. To be honest, i feel like lowering life totals to 30 would be the healthiest change to ever come to edh as it would allow aggro to be competitive and actually playable against combo. Maybe.
Flash. This with Protean hulk says "Pay 2 mana; win the game". Some mong really dropped the ball allowing this one to be legal. Coming across this makes you question who makes the rules for this game.
aetherflux reservoir: Probably an unpopular opinion I'll admit, but I feel like this was just too good of a weapon for storm decks. It made them go from highly playable to straight up "EDH is a game of combo". Its too good. Ban it IMO. Let em go back to tendrils of agony and mind's desire etc etc
Food chain: Tazri has become too consistent now and theres always gonna be commanders that will make the card say "pay 3 mana, get infinite mana". Just ban it to prevent further abuse.
Laboratory maniac: No, its not fancy. No, it takes no skill to do a setup with it. Doomsday for example says "pay 3 mana, win the game" with labman being legal. Its not fun to play against, takes not much skill to pull off after a little bit of practice and is just really unhealthy for competitive play in general. Ban this and it'll fix a lot of problems.
The chain veil: Card by itself is fine but combined with teferi, temporal archmage the card is beyond broken. Its format warping and should have been banned years ago.
Theres roughly 10 more format-warping cards but i'd say these are the obvious ones. Theres always going to be strong cards, but sometimes cards can be so broken when built correctly that it can make edh commander-selection feel like 15 commanders to pick from instead of 870+. No card should EVER say "Pay X; Win if no response"... Its just not fun after the first time for many, many people. I mean, you gotta remember this question is subjective too, so someone could come along and say I'm completely wrong and that winning on turn 3 consistantly is extremely fun and skill-based. Everyones different and theres gonna be a lot of differing opinions on this topic. Hopefully this little response gives you an idea of just my viewpoint on this anywho
On topic: of the cards on the list, I think Painter's Servant and Gifts Ungiven would be the "safest" unbans. Recurring Nightmare would be my choice for a more aggressive unban. I am not sure how truly powerful it would be but the difficulty in answering it coupled with the repetitive nature does not bode well for it.
As for bans, I am honestly not sure. I hate MLD, but I don't think it needs to be banned (mostly because there are too many ways to accomplish it anyway). Maybe a swap ban with Iona, Shield of Emeria for PS. I think it already plays into a weird space with the format since the format is all about color restrictions. I am not sure that mono color decks need to be hated out so easily and PS would make this even easier. And, maybe Paradox Engine? I personally have not played against it in a couple years but others have commented that it negatively affects their play experiences. Otherwise, I don't really think there is currently anything worth banning.
Ban: Nothing really stands out to me, the banlist is (correctly IMO even though I do sometimes play competitively) not oriented towards cEDH, so things that are broken if people build around them with a competitive mindset aren't really relevant, and in general the kind of cards that can accidentally be broken have been eliminated already. Possibly Iona, Shield of Emeria if my unban goes ahead, as it already interacts pretty poorly with the format and is rather "unfun" in general and the Painter's Servant interaction could be too much. If it's one or the other, I'd much rather be able to play PS than Iona.
The Teferi / Chain Veil combo is far more powerful than Doubling Season / Planeswalkers, as one of the pieces is sitting in the command zone and the only other thing you need to win on the spot are are mana rocks, which you want anyway. The former is one of the strongest competitive decks in the format. The latter is something that is kinda good in casual environments.
Admittedly, if I was to ban one (I don't actually think either should be as IMO the banlist shouldn't be aimed at cEDH), I'd hit Teferi, as I feel TCV has more "non broken" uses across the board.
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The biggest change I would want to make is to bring back banned-as-commander. Rofellos and friends are absolutely busted in the command zone, but making them in no way guaranteed to be available as soon as you have the mana (even moreso now that we don't have partial paris mulligans) and permanently answerable makes them fair, IMO.
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This is my feeling too, and probably swap PS and Iona because people seem very dead set on not having both at same time.
Switching PS with Iona is one of the few changes I'd support right now. PS can be dumb, but has plenty of fun/goofy applications. Iona is only ever a feel bad. Its obnoxious in all of its uses, and the most broken possible use (dropping it and PS and naming the same color, which isn't possible with either banned obv) is better than dropping it for 9 mana and just locking one guy out of the game. I have never played this, or had someone else play it, and enjoyed what followed. She ruins games. She is a self contained undesirable playstate. It may not be enough to ban her right now, but if her being in the format is keeping PS out, then swapping them is the right thing to do.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
What kept her in check was that previously she needed to be part of a fragile 4-card combo (Iona + Crucible of Worlds + Mirrorpool + Mirror Gallery) to create more of herself. That her being mono color would mean that she would have to almost work as a mono white combo deck to actually function based on the rocks and tutoring in order to win a game as she basically forces everyone to surrender or die of commander damage. As white has plenty of ways to tutor for lands and artifacts (mostly equipment), recover artifacts and creatures from the graveyard.
Now is Iona going to the most popular? I would say "No". That there are faster decks that could kill than an Iona deck. That if anyone is running the cards that allow the controller to exile specific cards from the deck/hand/battlefield/graveyard. That while strong, she would create situations where the playgroup will stop playing with an Iona player unless they take out the painter's servant and helm of the host. That unless she has a servant out, colorless decks (or decks with some colorless answers) just laugh at her attempt in locking out players. That Iona will see a spike in play and then dwindle for the reasons listed before.
Trick question by the way, as I know you can't provide that answer because I ran mono-white decks and know them inside and out for how to replicate the same process as I used to run not only Iona, Shield of Emeria but also Oriss, Samite Guardian and those were extremely clunky until Helm of the Host.
You want the old method for just Iona? Try 4 cards which is 19 mana initial investment and then each turn you are paying your land drop and 5 mana per turn for a total cost, spread over five total turns, of 39 mana. Suddenly that only 18 mana that comes with a passive trigger that doesn't eat up your land drop, five of your mana every turn, and two extra card slots sounds really good in comparison.
Also you know what is really fascinating about players? It only takes 2 upkeeps tops to lock out the majority of the table. Why? Because a lot of decks are multicolor and tend to overlap and when you hit on the overlapping colors, its like killing several birds with one stone.
Its also, hilariously, the only way to currently and legally achieve this effect using the rules as provided by the RC. So where are you getting your alternative?
Addendum - Also if you wanted to lock the table out of four colors in 2 turns you need:
1) A mirror pool
2) A crucible of worlds
As you would be spending an extra 13 mana. Also the reason you couldn't do this on the same turn as casting Iona is you would need to wait for the nonlegendary token created by the Helm to happen.
The issue with Iona is that even her non combo uses ruin games. I'd rather someone lock out the board with Iona/Helm because that's a win. Just casting her and ruining one guys day is worse.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Iona represents a singular effect in the game right now and I kinda like the game having those.
(I think the angel is a bad creature and largely a win more and never the complete earth shattering card she is claimed to be)
It wasn't about there being an alternative it is about once you have invested that much I don't think it is a thing that needs to come up in regards to banning or not. I think that line of play is generally pretty bad and I don't see Helm of the Host all that much because for the effect it is a large amount of mana.
I wasn't saying there is some other cheaper way to do this, I was saying that doing this seems needless and pointless and as a waste of mana to achieve the desired effect is all and if you are going to put in that mana the outcome should be good.