Mastermind's acquisition is a new card I really like, but that I would never play under the present rules. Right now, there is an optional rule for sideboards: Abilities which refer to other cards owned outside the game (Wishes, Spawnsire, Research, Ring of Ma'ruf) do not function in Commander without prior agreement on their scope from the playgroup. and, Players may bring a 10 card sideboard in addition to their 99 cards and 1 Commander.
After Commanders are announced, players have 3 minutes to make 1-for-1 substitutions to their deck.
Any cards not played as part of the deck may be retrieved by "wishes".
Since the rules are optional, I do not use a sideboard for any of my decks. I also refuse if people ask to play with sideboards because the rest of us are using deck space for hate cards and they don't have to.
But now, I started thinking - if there was an official rule for wishboards or sideboards, maybe then it would be okay. My issue isn't the strategy aspect or the deckbuilding aspect, it is the edge given to the player asking to play with the optional rule while the rest of us are abiding by the official rules. But if everyone by default gets to play with a wishboard or a sideboard, then we are all on equal footing and can play around with a new area of the game.
I guess in a lot of ways, it goes against the spirit of having a 100 card deck. I don't know. What do you think of making it an official rule?
I like the idea, but I haven't played EDH in awhile so I may be forgetting some reason why I wasn't always for it. I just think it gives you the ability to slightly alter your deck for playgroup powerlevel reasons legally, while also being good for hate cards in high power level metas.
Mechanically it doesn't really seem that useful outside of not playing consistently in a single meta. Due to the restrictions of the wishes you're likely going to limit yourself to two, maybe three, wishes. So if you absolutely need those cards to deal with the current meta you're gonna need to expend resources to get the wish, to then cast it, and then use your card. Much more efficient to jam them mainboard if you know they're good in your group.
I know some people say that they'll get used for land color hate, but that seems pretty bad. It will probably only seriously damage one player, but then you still have two others to deal with. If they were legal the only card i can really think of off the top of my head that I would run there instead of main board is Glacial Chasm, but i also play control and just try to counter anything that seems problematic, kek.
Players may bring a 10 card sideboard in addition to their 99 cards and 1 Commander.
After Commanders are announced, players have 3 minutes to make 1-for-1 substitutions to their deck.
Any cards not played as part of the deck may be retrieved by "wishes".
I do not think this is the rule anymore, and I do not see it on the official site. Can you tell us where you got that quote from?
Overall I think its just going to be hate cards, usually color or land hosers. Not ideal, so I think its a 'check before we start'. I would normally give the go-ahead if someone asked, but I would ask to see the board.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
In addition to concerns about just tutoring for hate cards, I have two other issues with this.
First, time. Commander games already take long enough. I don't need people spending even longer as they transfer cards in and out of their decks.
Second, aren't 100 slots enough? If it isn't good enough to mainboard, is it really good enough to wish for?
Wholly agreed. If sideboard/"wishboard" cards aren't good enough to be in the main deck, they're probably going to be narrow, powerful hate cards anyway and so the issue with just tutoring for hate and them not being good enough to normally just be in the 100 go hand-in-hand.
Players may bring a 10 card sideboard in addition to their 99 cards and 1 Commander.
After Commanders are announced, players have 3 minutes to make 1-for-1 substitutions to their deck.
Any cards not played as part of the deck may be retrieved by "wishes".
I do not think this is the rule anymore, and I do not see it on the official site. Can you tell us where you got that quote from?
Overall I think its just going to be hate cards, usually color or land hosers. Not ideal, so I think its a 'check before we start'. I would normally give the go-ahead if someone asked, but I would ask to see the board.
It was no longer on the site, but I didn't see it in the rules changelog either. I think it is still an optional rule. I found it with google's help in a MTGSalvation thread.
Re: Everyone else
Think your thoughts make sense. We don't need to slow down the game or give people access to narrow hate cards as a default. If the meta requires it, fine, but it would probably suck a lot of fun out of the game if people had narrow hate cards in the sideboard every time there was a game.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I understand the want to play with sideboards. The wish type cards are a fun addition, I just can't see that that's the sort of card that benefits most from a sideboard predominantly. I think it opens the game to more hosing and combo play than anything else. You see who you're playing against and sideboard in an answer that locks the game in your favour. I know that's not the intention behind this, but it's what I can see happening predominantly.
Working that problem through a little further, I know you don't base rules on the worst case scenario (I think this is part of why the banlist isn't enormous to encompass competitive/combo EDH), and you want to encourage a flexible game. I just think this is probably a step too far in terms of leniency, and sort of opens the door to building around contingencies - not necessarily lazy brewing, but this could very well be the case. I guess for me it's not that you plan arounf the worst case scenario, it's that the worst case scenario is far too close. Which is a shame in some ways, as the cards you're wanting access to are kinda cool.
I like sideboards as a way to allow wishes and similar to function in a fair way that doesn't slow the game to a halt while someone searches a binder. I like the idea of being able to pack some narrow effect answers like Teferis Response, and a sideboard would allow you to pack a variety of such answers, as well as a card you can default to if none of them are needed, while limiting how many such cards you have access to so you cant just answer anything.
I don't support being able to sideboard after revealing commanders as that just allows you to nerf to easily. I do support allowing side boarding between games, such as for tournaments or if a casual group plays more than one game with the same deck.
I do worry about severe hosers like Flashfires though. Being able to wish for it removes a lot of the opportunity cost, as if it isn't relevant the wish can be something else and therefore not a dead draw.
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I wholly support the addition of sideboards to the rules specifically to allow "wishes" and other similar cards to actually function in a game of Commander. The RC has done a good job of getting rid of all format-specific errata for Commander (things like "Karakas cannot target a Commander" or "Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant flips at 60-life or higher instead of 30" were once part of the rules), so it would be a good thing to get rid of this last piece.
What I would like to see is a change to Rule 13 from this:
13. Abilities which refer to other cards owned outside the game (Wishes, Spawnsire, Research, Ring of Ma'ruf) do not function in Commander without prior agreement on their scope from the playgroup.
to this:
13. Since games of Commander are played without sideboards, abilities which refer to other cards owned outside the games (Wishes, Spawnsire, Research, Ring of Ma'ruf, etc.) function in Commander with the following rules:
The player must have a "wishboard" of no more than 10 cards prepared before the start of the match so as to not delay the game.
The cards in the "wishboard" must conform to the color identity of your commander (see Rule 3)
The cards in your "wishboard" do not count as part of your 100-card deck (see Rule 4)
Cards in your "wishboard" may not be in your 100-card deck and vice versa (see Rule 5)
I support this 100%. It would be fun to be able to use Wishes in EDH.
But why would it be fun?
"Oh, three of you are playing green. I guess I will wish for Acid Rain. It wasn't good enough to main deck, but this should make the game fun."
Can you build me a hypothetical situation where it would be fun to tutor for a card that was not good enough for your main deck in a 100-card deck? And actually fun, not "broken but narrow hate card, make the game miserable for everyone else" type of fun?
I support this 100%. It would be fun to be able to use Wishes in EDH.
But why would it be fun?
"Oh, three of you are playing green. I guess I will wish for Acid Rain. It wasn't good enough to main deck, but this should make the game fun."
Can you build me a hypothetical situation where it would be fun to tutor for a card that was not good enough for your main deck in a 100-card deck? And actually fun, not "broken but narrow hate card, make the game miserable for everyone else" type of fun?
I know some people associate a sideboard as being full of nothing but hate cards (which is true for 60-card decks for the most part), but a sideboard constructed for a "Wish" need not be built the same way and certainly a wishboard for Commander need not be built like that either. I would look at building my wishboard with the most flexibility I could, making it into a virtual "charm". It would become a flex-spell that would have some added utility spells, some backup removal, some early game digging, and some late-game finishers.
If I were to construct a 10-card "wishboard" for Burning Wish for something like my Bosh, Iron Golem deck, it would probably contain the following:
So I get that some people are really worried about somebody showing up with the second wishboard, but honestly that person's wishboard is probably the least of your concerns at that point. As with many cards in the game, there are ways to abuse it and there are ways to use it in a "responsible" way.
I know some people associate a sideboard as being full of nothing but hate cards (which is true for 60-card decks for the most part), but a sideboard constructed for a "Wish" need not be built the same way and certainly a wishboard for Commander need not be built like that either. I would look at building my wishboard with the most flexibility I could, making it into a virtual "charm". It would become a flex-spell that would have some added utility spells, some backup removal, some early game digging, and some late-game finishers.
If I were to construct a 10-card "wishboard" for Burning Wish for something like my Bosh, Iron Golem deck, it would probably contain the following:
That list seems a bit weird to me. Cards like Trash for Treasure and Vandalblast are good enough that they should already be in the main deck of a Bosh deck. Cards like Faithless Looting and Aftershock are fine filler but a bit weak to be tutoring for - it feels like you're paying too much once you tack 1R onto their mana cost (due to the Burning Wish used to find them).
I look at all my decks (I've built over 50 commmander decks), and the only reason I could see wanting a wishboard would be to cheat the 100-card limit. Sometimes it's really hard to trim down to 100, and if I had a wishboard, I could turn one slot into ten more. However, I feel like that is a trap. If you're just using it to expand how many cards make the cut, it allows for a sloppier deck. On the other hand, if you use it for narrow but powerful hate cards, it becomes degenerate and not fun. I personally don't think the potential benefit outweighs the abuse that would happen, to say nothing of the extra time it could add to already long games.
How is that not just making your deck 109 cards? Those cards are all good enough to make the cut, so now you just get access to a flexible 10 for one card? Ok I want to Demonic Tutor for cards outside the game...
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
@Funky Dragon: It might look weird, but I’m coming at it from a mindset that I would want to have Burning Wish be a live card as much as possible at every stage of the game. Faithless Looting would be for when I draw it early and I need to dig for lands or to possibly feed a Goblin Welder. Aftershock is one of the few red cards that can kill a creature outright (and it is slightly cheaper than Fissure). And while I agree that some of those cards are good enough to be in the maindeck, the fact is that there’s probably 100-120 non-land cards that are good enough to play in almost every maindeck. The point I was making is that many people will gravitate towards those kinds of cards versus outright hate cards that most people would likely never consider for the maindeck.
@MRHblue: What would be the problem with that? This is what the card does. You or I don’t get a say in what WotC prints as far as Magic cards, so the fact that the card exists should be enough for the rules to allow it to work. If people don’t like them because they allow people to “cheat” on the number of cards in their deck (which is a huge, self-serving leap of logic) or because of some worries about power level, then we should just ban them outright.
My 2 cents:
"Outside the game" is too loosely defined in the comp rules to be allowed under most conditions, which is where the tournament rules step in. Traditional sideboards don't really make sense for Commander as a multiplayer casual environment, and thus aren't included in the rules. Dedicated Wishboards would just add another layer of unneeded complexity to the Commander rules, with very little payoff. Right now, the rules concerning wishes can be neatly summed up as:
1) Follow the tournament rules for wishes by default (i.e. only wish from your sideboard)
2) No sideboards allowed by default
Yes, this renders most wishes useless, but notice the "by default" clause. If you want to use a wishboard at my table, ask first and let the table see your wishboard - if we don't like it, you can swap out the wish for something else before we shuffle up. If you want to bring your entire collection with you to wish for, then it's up to the table to decide if they want to let you. Such is the nature of EDH.
Similarly, one of my decks currently runs Hydradoodle for the lulz - I'd ask before a game with randoms if they mind a relatively sane Un-card, and if they do mind I'd swap it with a less silly option before shuffling up. I shouldn't expect the table to allow me to play it, but a lot of tables won't have a problem with it.
If you're in a competitive environment where you can't expect upfront honesty and the ability for your group to make a judgement call, then you most emphatically shouldn't be allowed a wishboard or silver-bordered cards, since they're almost certainly going to be used for degeneracy (be that broken hate cards or something else cutthroat).
Long story short: I like the official rules being the way they are, but I don't think there's any problem with breaking those rules so long as you're honest about it and are willing to make a quick edit to your deck if asked. If your play group isn't willing to entertain stepping slightly outside the official rules, then that says more about the quality of your play group than the quality of the rules, IMO.
And while I agree that some of those cards are good enough to be in the maindeck, the fact is that there’s probably 100-120 non-land cards that are good enough to play in almost every maindeck.
And part of the built in restriction of EDH is its exactly 100. Just like CI, or permanent access to a commander.
The point I was making is that many people will gravitate towards those kinds of cards versus outright hate cards that most people would likely never consider for the maindeck.
Sure, but plenty would go after dead hate cards because there is no downside.
@MRHblue: What would be the problem with that? This is what the card does. You or I don’t get a say in what WotC prints as far as Magic cards, so the fact that the card exists should be enough for the rules to allow it to work.
And by that same logic we don't get a say in how EDH restricts.
Quote from \ »
If people don’t like them because they allow people to “cheat” on the number of cards in their deck (which is a huge, self-serving leap of logic) or because of some worries about power level, then we should just ban them outright.
Its not a leap of logic, you just dont like the facts : This allows you access to more than 100 cards. Some cards do other things, which you refuse to acknowledge, and none meet any ban criteria. Its a lot easier to convince someone to allow you a wishboard than allowing banned cards AND a wishboard. Rule 13 allows the most flexibility without forcing wishboards or 'outside the game' on groups.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
And while I agree that some of those cards are good enough to be in the maindeck, the fact is that there’s probably 100-120 non-land cards that are good enough to play in almost every maindeck.
And part of the built in restriction of EDH is its exactly 100. Just like CI, or permanent access to a commander.
I'm not arguing against changing any of the restrictions that make EDH the format that it is. I actually quite like how the format is structured, especially the 100-card limit. But just like anything else, when a card "breaks the rules" the card wins, not the rules. By the same logic, we shouldn't allow Clone effects because they break the highlander rule, or we should ban Relentless Rats for the same reason. We should ban Transguild Courier for violating the color identity rules. We should ban Partner commanders and the C14 Planeswalker Commanders because they violate the rule that your commander needs to be a single Legendary Creature. Granted, these are all ridiculous suggestions for actual banning, but to say that a card shouldn't be allowed because it bends the rules is equally ridiculous.
The point I was making is that many people will gravitate towards those kinds of cards versus outright hate cards that most people would likely never consider for the maindeck.
Sure, but plenty would go after dead hate cards because there is no downside.
The Social Contract would apply to wishboards just as much as it would to the maindeck. I agree with the assertion that with less opportunity cost that there is a more likely chance that you would see a narrow hate card, but maybe I just don't see that as much of a problem as others do. Yes, it would suck if someone Burning Wishes for Flashfires and casts an effectively one-sided Armageddon against your white deck, but what is preventing that person from destroying your lands without Burning Wish other than normal social restraint?
@MRHblue: What would be the problem with that? This is what the card does. You or I don’t get a say in what WotC prints as far as Magic cards, so the fact that the card exists should be enough for the rules to allow it to work.
And by that same logic we don't get a say in how EDH restricts.
Restriction is one thing; essentially blanking a card's text box is quite another. Take a card like Shahrazad; I for one am totally glad that this card is banned. It is annoying as all hell to play a side-game of Magic, not to mention it is sometimes unfeasible from a logistics perspective (both space-wise and time-wise). But we don't have an EDH Rule X that states "Cards that start or create MAGIC subgames do nothing without previous player consent."; we just outright ban the card. My request is that cards that refer to other cards outside the game be treated the same; either give them an avenue where they can function as-printed, or just ban them if people feel that they are too powerful or that they would contribute to poor games of Commander.
If people don’t like them because they allow people to “cheat” on the number of cards in their deck (which is a huge, self-serving leap of logic) or because of some worries about power level, then we should just ban them outright.
Its not a leap of logic, you just dont like the facts : This allows you access to more than 100 cards. Some cards do other things, which you refuse to acknowledge, and none meet any ban criteria. Its a lot easier to convince someone to allow you a wishboard than allowing banned cards AND a wishboard. Rule 13 allows the most flexibility without forcing wishboards or 'outside the game' on groups.
I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything; most of the cards in question can't meet any of the ban criteria because they literally do nothing right now. (with the obvious exceptions being Research // Development, Spawnsire of Ulamog, and Mastermind's Acquisition). And while I agree with the sentiment that Rule 13 allows for flexibility amongst playgroups, the default will always be that these cards are pseudo-banned in a way that no other cards in the game are affected.
If the only justification for Rule 13 is that we are worried about what people might do with cards that refer to "cards outside the game", then why not codify other concerns about what people might do. "Cards that destroy all lands have no effect unless agreed upon by all players beforehand", "Cards that lock players out from playing spells have no effect unless agreed upon by all players beforehand", "Unbounded loops (aka "infinite combos") are limited to only three iterations unless agreed upon by all players beforehand", "Tooth and Nail is a lame card and is automatically countered unless you fetch a non-infinite combo", etc. (I'm being a little facetious here as I would never actually advocate for any of these... except for the one about Tooth and Nail). We can write all sorts of rules to prevent the possibility of anything "unfun" ever happening without banning any cards and give playgroups all sorts of flexibility... except we ll know what would happen; the default game would be that all these cards are effectively pseudo-banned. Now of course we wouldn't ever do that because having that much format-level errata would be confusing at best and format-killing at worst, and trying to legislate how players should play is kinda ridiculous, but if the Social Contract is good enough to allow EDH to flourish as a format without these rules then it is surely good enough to allow EDH to flourish without Rule 13.
"Oh, three of you are playing green. I guess I will wish for Acid Rain. It wasn't good enough to main deck, but this should make the game fun."
That sounds like fun to me, to be honest. I enjoy hate and mana denial (in moderation).
Can you build me a hypothetical situation where it would be fun to tutor for a card that was not good enough for your main deck in a 100-card deck? And actually fun, not "broken but narrow hate card, make the game miserable for everyone else" type of fun?
The big draw is expanding options, particularly for color identities with few tutors. I'd love have an additional tutor for my Jaya deck. Wishes are mechanically interesting and aesthetically pleasing cards that currently can't be played in the format at all.
My playgroup uses 10 card sideboards which we sideboard in after commanders are revealed. We have found that this is by far the best way to play if you're going even remotely past very casual because SO MANY commanders are just completely unviable once you get remotely competitive. This allows WAY more varience of commanders while still being more thought provoking then a very casual game. We limit it to 10 cards because we've wanted to minimize how much we can just alter decks in order to provide deck building skill but still have the tools to deal with a card or strategy that just hoses your general.
My main issue with wishboards is that they add more complexity that further confuses new and unknowing players. It can be daunting enough to build a 100 card deck for those players and when you start throwing in something as complicated as wishboards they are just going to be completely lost. I did once wish I could make a wishboard but that was years ago and since then I have decided that its probably for the best to just not do that.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I think some people in this thread are overestimating the level of spite people will take this too and I feel it will become a home to cards that traditionally had a downside in that they had a possibility to be a dead draw in a given game.
After Commanders are announced, players have 3 minutes to make 1-for-1 substitutions to their deck.
Any cards not played as part of the deck may be retrieved by "wishes".
Since the rules are optional, I do not use a sideboard for any of my decks. I also refuse if people ask to play with sideboards because the rest of us are using deck space for hate cards and they don't have to.
But now, I started thinking - if there was an official rule for wishboards or sideboards, maybe then it would be okay. My issue isn't the strategy aspect or the deckbuilding aspect, it is the edge given to the player asking to play with the optional rule while the rest of us are abiding by the official rules. But if everyone by default gets to play with a wishboard or a sideboard, then we are all on equal footing and can play around with a new area of the game.
I guess in a lot of ways, it goes against the spirit of having a 100 card deck. I don't know. What do you think of making it an official rule?
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I know some people say that they'll get used for land color hate, but that seems pretty bad. It will probably only seriously damage one player, but then you still have two others to deal with. If they were legal the only card i can really think of off the top of my head that I would run there instead of main board is Glacial Chasm, but i also play control and just try to counter anything that seems problematic, kek.
Overall I think its just going to be hate cards, usually color or land hosers. Not ideal, so I think its a 'check before we start'. I would normally give the go-ahead if someone asked, but I would ask to see the board.
First, time. Commander games already take long enough. I don't need people spending even longer as they transfer cards in and out of their decks.
Second, aren't 100 slots enough? If it isn't good enough to mainboard, is it really good enough to wish for?
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Wholly agreed. If sideboard/"wishboard" cards aren't good enough to be in the main deck, they're probably going to be narrow, powerful hate cards anyway and so the issue with just tutoring for hate and them not being good enough to normally just be in the 100 go hand-in-hand.
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It was no longer on the site, but I didn't see it in the rules changelog either. I think it is still an optional rule. I found it with google's help in a MTGSalvation thread.
Re: Everyone else
Think your thoughts make sense. We don't need to slow down the game or give people access to narrow hate cards as a default. If the meta requires it, fine, but it would probably suck a lot of fun out of the game if people had narrow hate cards in the sideboard every time there was a game.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Working that problem through a little further, I know you don't base rules on the worst case scenario (I think this is part of why the banlist isn't enormous to encompass competitive/combo EDH), and you want to encourage a flexible game. I just think this is probably a step too far in terms of leniency, and sort of opens the door to building around contingencies - not necessarily lazy brewing, but this could very well be the case. I guess for me it's not that you plan arounf the worst case scenario, it's that the worst case scenario is far too close. Which is a shame in some ways, as the cards you're wanting access to are kinda cool.
I don't support being able to sideboard after revealing commanders as that just allows you to nerf to easily. I do support allowing side boarding between games, such as for tournaments or if a casual group plays more than one game with the same deck.
I do worry about severe hosers like Flashfires though. Being able to wish for it removes a lot of the opportunity cost, as if it isn't relevant the wish can be something else and therefore not a dead draw.
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What I would like to see is a change to Rule 13 from this:
13. Abilities which refer to other cards owned outside the game (Wishes, Spawnsire, Research, Ring of Ma'ruf) do not function in Commander without prior agreement on their scope from the playgroup.
13. Since games of Commander are played without sideboards, abilities which refer to other cards owned outside the games (Wishes, Spawnsire, Research, Ring of Ma'ruf, etc.) function in Commander with the following rules:
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"Oh, three of you are playing green. I guess I will wish for Acid Rain. It wasn't good enough to main deck, but this should make the game fun."
Can you build me a hypothetical situation where it would be fun to tutor for a card that was not good enough for your main deck in a 100-card deck? And actually fun, not "broken but narrow hate card, make the game miserable for everyone else" type of fun?
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ManabaseCrafter
I know some people associate a sideboard as being full of nothing but hate cards (which is true for 60-card decks for the most part), but a sideboard constructed for a "Wish" need not be built the same way and certainly a wishboard for Commander need not be built like that either. I would look at building my wishboard with the most flexibility I could, making it into a virtual "charm". It would become a flex-spell that would have some added utility spells, some backup removal, some early game digging, and some late-game finishers.
If I were to construct a 10-card "wishboard" for Burning Wish for something like my Bosh, Iron Golem deck, it would probably contain the following:
1 Molten Disaster
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Warp World
1 Aftershock
1 Insurrection
1 Vandalblast
1 Molten Psyche
1 Brass's Bounty
1 Faithless Looting
1 Flashfires
1 Boiling Seas
1 Ruination
1 Anarchy
1 Reign of Chaos
1 Wildfire
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Wake of Destruction
1 Obliterate
I could do the same thing for the other cards affected by Rule 13 (namely Golden Wish, Cunning Wish, Death Wish, Living Wish, Glittering Wish, Coax From the Blind Eternities, Research // Development, Mastermind's Acquisition, Ring of Ma'rûf, and Spawnsire of Ulamog), but I think everyone gets the picture that there is plenty of ways to go with a wishboard.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
I look at all my decks (I've built over 50 commmander decks), and the only reason I could see wanting a wishboard would be to cheat the 100-card limit. Sometimes it's really hard to trim down to 100, and if I had a wishboard, I could turn one slot into ten more. However, I feel like that is a trap. If you're just using it to expand how many cards make the cut, it allows for a sloppier deck. On the other hand, if you use it for narrow but powerful hate cards, it becomes degenerate and not fun. I personally don't think the potential benefit outweighs the abuse that would happen, to say nothing of the extra time it could add to already long games.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
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ManabaseCrafter
@MRHblue: What would be the problem with that? This is what the card does. You or I don’t get a say in what WotC prints as far as Magic cards, so the fact that the card exists should be enough for the rules to allow it to work. If people don’t like them because they allow people to “cheat” on the number of cards in their deck (which is a huge, self-serving leap of logic) or because of some worries about power level, then we should just ban them outright.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
My 2 cents:
"Outside the game" is too loosely defined in the comp rules to be allowed under most conditions, which is where the tournament rules step in. Traditional sideboards don't really make sense for Commander as a multiplayer casual environment, and thus aren't included in the rules. Dedicated Wishboards would just add another layer of unneeded complexity to the Commander rules, with very little payoff. Right now, the rules concerning wishes can be neatly summed up as:
1) Follow the tournament rules for wishes by default (i.e. only wish from your sideboard)
2) No sideboards allowed by default
Yes, this renders most wishes useless, but notice the "by default" clause. If you want to use a wishboard at my table, ask first and let the table see your wishboard - if we don't like it, you can swap out the wish for something else before we shuffle up. If you want to bring your entire collection with you to wish for, then it's up to the table to decide if they want to let you. Such is the nature of EDH.
Similarly, one of my decks currently runs Hydradoodle for the lulz - I'd ask before a game with randoms if they mind a relatively sane Un-card, and if they do mind I'd swap it with a less silly option before shuffling up. I shouldn't expect the table to allow me to play it, but a lot of tables won't have a problem with it.
If you're in a competitive environment where you can't expect upfront honesty and the ability for your group to make a judgement call, then you most emphatically shouldn't be allowed a wishboard or silver-bordered cards, since they're almost certainly going to be used for degeneracy (be that broken hate cards or something else cutthroat).
Long story short: I like the official rules being the way they are, but I don't think there's any problem with breaking those rules so long as you're honest about it and are willing to make a quick edit to your deck if asked. If your play group isn't willing to entertain stepping slightly outside the official rules, then that says more about the quality of your play group than the quality of the rules, IMO.
And by that same logic we don't get a say in how EDH restricts. Its not a leap of logic, you just dont like the facts : This allows you access to more than 100 cards. Some cards do other things, which you refuse to acknowledge, and none meet any ban criteria. Its a lot easier to convince someone to allow you a wishboard than allowing banned cards AND a wishboard. Rule 13 allows the most flexibility without forcing wishboards or 'outside the game' on groups.
I'm not arguing against changing any of the restrictions that make EDH the format that it is. I actually quite like how the format is structured, especially the 100-card limit. But just like anything else, when a card "breaks the rules" the card wins, not the rules. By the same logic, we shouldn't allow Clone effects because they break the highlander rule, or we should ban Relentless Rats for the same reason. We should ban Transguild Courier for violating the color identity rules. We should ban Partner commanders and the C14 Planeswalker Commanders because they violate the rule that your commander needs to be a single Legendary Creature. Granted, these are all ridiculous suggestions for actual banning, but to say that a card shouldn't be allowed because it bends the rules is equally ridiculous.
The Social Contract would apply to wishboards just as much as it would to the maindeck. I agree with the assertion that with less opportunity cost that there is a more likely chance that you would see a narrow hate card, but maybe I just don't see that as much of a problem as others do. Yes, it would suck if someone Burning Wishes for Flashfires and casts an effectively one-sided Armageddon against your white deck, but what is preventing that person from destroying your lands without Burning Wish other than normal social restraint?
Restriction is one thing; essentially blanking a card's text box is quite another. Take a card like Shahrazad; I for one am totally glad that this card is banned. It is annoying as all hell to play a side-game of Magic, not to mention it is sometimes unfeasible from a logistics perspective (both space-wise and time-wise). But we don't have an EDH Rule X that states "Cards that start or create MAGIC subgames do nothing without previous player consent."; we just outright ban the card. My request is that cards that refer to other cards outside the game be treated the same; either give them an avenue where they can function as-printed, or just ban them if people feel that they are too powerful or that they would contribute to poor games of Commander.
I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything; most of the cards in question can't meet any of the ban criteria because they literally do nothing right now. (with the obvious exceptions being Research // Development, Spawnsire of Ulamog, and Mastermind's Acquisition). And while I agree with the sentiment that Rule 13 allows for flexibility amongst playgroups, the default will always be that these cards are pseudo-banned in a way that no other cards in the game are affected.
If the only justification for Rule 13 is that we are worried about what people might do with cards that refer to "cards outside the game", then why not codify other concerns about what people might do. "Cards that destroy all lands have no effect unless agreed upon by all players beforehand", "Cards that lock players out from playing spells have no effect unless agreed upon by all players beforehand", "Unbounded loops (aka "infinite combos") are limited to only three iterations unless agreed upon by all players beforehand", "Tooth and Nail is a lame card and is automatically countered unless you fetch a non-infinite combo", etc. (I'm being a little facetious here as I would never actually advocate for any of these... except for the one about Tooth and Nail). We can write all sorts of rules to prevent the possibility of anything "unfun" ever happening without banning any cards and give playgroups all sorts of flexibility... except we ll know what would happen; the default game would be that all these cards are effectively pseudo-banned. Now of course we wouldn't ever do that because having that much format-level errata would be confusing at best and format-killing at worst, and trying to legislate how players should play is kinda ridiculous, but if the Social Contract is good enough to allow EDH to flourish as a format without these rules then it is surely good enough to allow EDH to flourish without Rule 13.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
That sounds like fun to me, to be honest. I enjoy hate and mana denial (in moderation).
The big draw is expanding options, particularly for color identities with few tutors. I'd love have an additional tutor for my Jaya deck. Wishes are mechanically interesting and aesthetically pleasing cards that currently can't be played in the format at all.
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