It seems papa funk is of the opinion that the benefits of making the change aren't significant enough to justify a change, to overcome the null hypothesis if you will, that the correct choice is always no change unless it can be shown that the change will be positive.
I also agree. If I were to vote on this 5 years ago, it would be heavily in favor of allowing planeswalkers as commanders. But with the printing of planeswalkers explicitly allowed as commanders, I think it would feel clunky to allow them now after all this time, even if it would be interesting and balanced (which I think it would!)
The positives are almost entirely centered around "these are cool characters from lore" rather than "these are cool cards to build around".
Oh man oh man, have you not seen Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God? If that was legal as a Commander I would have sleeved that up the minute it got spoiled haha. And I'm not even a fan of Bolas! (Niv-Mizzet for life)
I'm quite surprised that Ashiok is sparking such a debate. After all, search deniers have been here for ages already, some of which even allowed to be cast from the comand zone (even though, I have to admit, at a higher cost).
What search-preventing card is a legendary creature?
Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor are the only ones I'm aware of that are even creautres at all.
So, what are the reasons to make planeswalkers legal? Other than for flavour. Are there any walkers that people want to build around without just trying to force the ultimate?
Daretti, Scrap Savant was interesting because his first two abilities could be built around. I would argue that almost all planeswalkers than can be played as commanders have sub-par ultimates and are really focused on the first two abilities.
So how many other planeswalkers would be interesting to build around?
I like playing planeswalkers in the 99, and I would not be a fan of having to ban a bunch of cards to enable very few new decks. So, please tell me what cards would be interesting new decks.
I'd say that there would be winners all across the different EDH tables: casual players would get to play with the flashiest cards of their collections, Vorthos fans would be able to create the most flavorful decks, Spikes like me would also get more options to choose from... The meta would just get more diversified, and more people would be drawn to the format. There's no real drawback from that. I also don't understand the part about slowing down games: there's a ton of value-based generals already, yet nobody is complaining about them. I have a few players in my different groups who show up with walkers, and games with them are equally as long as the games without. Just look at video lenghts on YouTube to try to compare, and you'll see that this feeling is based on no concrete evidence :/
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The card I was refering to was specifically Ob Nixilis, Unshackled.
Serious question. Have you actually played against this deck, or did you just search gatherer for a legendary creature that had this effect? Because, honestly, I have never played against this card. Commander or otherwise. That’s like saying Leovled, emissary of trest shouldn’t be banned because Notion Thief is legal.
As for the rest, most have points have been covered extensively. Pretty sick of seeing the Teferi, Temporal Archmage parallels, considering he’s legal and the others aren’t, so you have zero data to back up your claim. I mean, not to go back to Ashiok, but I can hard lock the table, and win with damage, for the same cost as Teferi, with additional colors for support. It’s not hard to see other PW’s beating him out in raw power from the command zone either.
I’ve enlisted a few friends to try some PW decks with me over the next couple of days. Our first game is tonight. Tonight we are trying unique decks built around PW’s, and tomorrow or Sunday we are going to try swapping in a PW for an existing deck, because I feel as though that PW decks aren’t going to be without ways to incorporate them into the strategy, like every other deck...
I have, but it was actually a a Maralen of the Mornsong deck that was trying to abuse it. And what I mean is that... it's just not that crazy of an effect in EDH. Leovold's wheels aren't the only reason why that card is busted: the access to the best control colors of the format, the second ability always netting value and his very low cmc all combined are what made him so scary. Tasigur was almost as terrifying to me before his ban in the Duel variant of commander for most of these reasons.
The Teferi argument is obvious though: he's got a easily tutorable one card (two if you count the one rock required to go off) combo that instantly wins the game upon completion. The only ones that comes close to that are most likely Sarkhan, unbroken and Samut, the tested for being able to combo out with Doubling Season (which du to the nature of said ultimates are more fragile than Teferi + Veil) while having access to more colors and having a very good value package.
I really hope you'll have fun trying these out!
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True, wheels weren’t the only reason, considering it was all in one package. It wouldn’t have been banworthy at all without that line of text, though. So that isn’t a very valid point one way or the other.
For every “Well, it’s not as broken as this”, there will be a “you sure about that?” from me. Because, again, nobody is building with these because they aren’t legal.
True, wheels weren’t the only reason, considering it was all in one package. It wouldn’t have been banworthy at all without that line of text, though. So that isn’t a very valid point one way or the other.
For every “Well, it’s not as broken as this”, there will be a “you sure about that?” from me. Because, again, nobody is building with these because they aren’t legal.
Karn would be such an interesting card to build around indeed, that static ability would allow colorless players to finally have a real cEDH option to choose! That combo doesn't win games outright though, especially since it doesn't stop creatures from being turned sideways to kill Karn... or his controller. But while his -2 can't be used for tutoring in EDH though (and colorless is the worst at tutoring anything anyway), be I'm sure there's some nice combos waiting to be found with cards that exiles themselves like Ugin's nexus. Even in the 99, his -2 can be used to bypass the commander tax if you're using a legendary artifact creature...
But let's not linger in the "is-it-broken-or-not" department: after all you are perfectly right, as much as I'd like to think all planeswalker have already more or less been figured out, nothing would beat the test of time and experience (which is why I'm really happy to see that despite being completely against that, you're still compeltely willing to try it out and see things for yourself).
However, this leads us to another topic being widely discussed here: the banlist itself.
Why should we be afraid of banning a few highly problematic walkers? I mean, there's already a handful of banned legendary creatures. And to caricature, we're not banning all legendary creature from being chosen as generals out of fear of them being broken since they're not designed for that purpose... Or else we'd just be playing Highlander! That also brings us to what was EDH at the core: a fun format where you could lead your army and cast your spells as your favorite character. Had the format been created after Lorwyn, walkers would have probably been allowed from the start.
Banning a few problematic walkers would be better than outright banning all of them from being in the command zone don't you think? As walkers aren't a very common permanent type in decklists, banning one after proof that it would be unbalanced in multiplayer wouldn't have a very high impact (and truth is, I probably hate to see bans as much as you do as I have to switch variants of my decks to play with my friends in multiplayer or French 1v1).
Anyway, I hope you'll get to the same conclusion as me after playtesting with your friends... and that more importantly, you still get to have fun doing so!
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From my expierience Playing Daretti, Scrap Savantmyself and having a Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury in my regular playgroup, as long as people know when to play them (just like with other combos) they tend to stick despite the creatures your opponents have as you protect them with your own or have other ways to protect them.
But let's not linger in the "is-it-broken-or-not" department: after all you are perfectly right, as much as I'd like to think all planeswalker have already more or less been figured out, nothing would beat the test of time and experience (which is why I'm really happy to see that despite being completely against that, you're still compeltely willing to try it out and see things for yourself).
So much this, I myself am also on the end of not allowing Planeswalkers as commanders generally, As I think as I stated before it does more harm than good.
By not adding much in case of playable commanders (a lot of the "buildarounds" have better options or not much support, or would tend to decks alot of people don't like to play against). But I genuinely think that regular Playgroups can make PWs as commander happen easily in a way that everyone in the group is happy.
The problem isn't just only the question of how powerful/fun the planeswalkers are but also what people want. Just as there are many people who advocate for Planeswalkers as commanders there are many who dont like that idea or even planeswalkers in general. And I do belive that more people would stop playing EDH (in Nonregular groups/MTGO/etc.) because they allowed PWs as commanders than people would stop because they don't get to play PWs as commanders.
Another minor possible annoyance which is worth mentioning even though it is a slippery slope argument is that the change could have an impact on how wizards design future PWs and legendary creatures.
Had the format been created after Lorwyn, walkers would have probably been allowed from the start.
Wholehartedly agree, but the longer you wait to change something the more impact it will have, both positive and negative.
Thats why this discussion exist, and I tend to be on the side that it will have more negative implications than positive.
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I wouldn't be opposed to a testrun similarly to Unstable, especially online as that is the biggest nonregular group thus offering the most data.
Well, s***, that’s embarrassing. I’ve been put in my place, then.
Will be following up with results from games last night. Played 3 games in about ~4 hours. Was supposed to be 5 of us, one couple couldn’t make it. So, not ideal conditions to test, but will share them regardless. The 3 walkers were Venser, The Soujerner, Garruk Wildspeaker and Ashiok Dream Render was mine, considering I’ve been banging that drum for 2-3 days. Good thing I didn’t add Maralen, then.
Ah sorry if that came out wrong that was not the intend of me pointing that out. Time wise it's just a bit more than my reg. playgroup when we are just 3 people.
The problem isn't just only the question of how powerful/fun the planeswalkers are but also what people want. Just as there are many people who advocate for Planeswalkers as commanders there are many who dont like that idea or even planeswalkers in general. And I do belive that more people would stop playing EDH (in Nonregular groups/MTGO/etc.) because they allowed PWs as commanders than people would stop because they don't get to play PWs as commanders.
This had me thinking - how much of an "old boys' club" will the format fall into as the overall direction of the game is heavily marketed towards planeswalkers? Please note I'm just using "old boys' club" as a neutral term, not a negative one, but just from observation of both the game and format over the years, I think it's the apt term to describe what could potentially happen to the format, but as weird as it sounds, without the typical negative connotations with it.
Let's put it this way - it's easy to say more people will leave the format with PWs were added than otherwise, but I think the statement is sort of heavily stunted towards the fact we're mostly in groups of people who were with the format for already so long, plus we don't actually question enough why some newer players who choose to not continue the format after a short trial (or start the format at all). I honestly won't be surprised if a lot of newer players don't start / barely try the format because their favorite planeswalker (which many newer players tend to have due to the overall game's marketing direction) can't be a Commander and hence there's a whole lot incentive for them to delve into the terrifying depth of the format gone (remember we're probably the most terrifying format to a new player in terms of cardpool and structure).
Considering I don't expect the marketing direction of the game to change anytime soon, the amount of new players we "lose potentially" will probably compound year after year and I won't be surprised at some threshold the number we "lost" is greater than the number of players who actually actively played the game (some of us probably have to leave for external reasons, but for most part I count them as part of the playerbase, since I'm compounding numbers).
The clincher? Ultimately EDH is a casual format and we don't need the growth, so everything I said could be potentially treated as pointless - EDH has a stable active player base and doesn't need the growth and neither is the lack of growth "hurting" the format (because at this stage, the RC/format doesn't really benefit from growth, to be blunt), but at the same time I sometimes sit back and think, but even if it does not harm the format like it does for a lot of cases of "old boys' clubs collapsing" (hence I say it isn't negative for our case), it doesn't mean this line of thinking/inaction isn't considered one.
Imagine if planeswalkers existed from the very start but the the RC tried to introduce the (post-ED-only) format as it is, I'm quite sure the format wouldn't have taken off if people couldn't play with their Urzas and Serras. To be very blunt, the format "lucked" out into establishing itself before planeswalker cards were a thing, but at the same time I would point out to new players (or even returning ones who skipped the whole era EDH grew from, now that retro planeswalkers are a thing), the format would be seen through pretty much the same lens as the imagination spot I started with.
We're sort of at a point there's nothing to be "gained" from venturing out (because growth doesn't mean as much now), but at same time, I don't think we should treat the "potential losses" as "invisible", even if it doesn't actually affect us negatively. I feel like the "no change" arguments tend to be "stronger" by default because it involves more people among those who already understand the format whereas new players who would otherwise join cannot put up an argument because they don't grasp the format as well and in grand scheme of things, I doubt there will be enough new players willing undertake the task of understanding the format just to evoke this change.
... I think the statement is sort of heavily stunted towards the fact we're mostly in groups of people who were with the format for already so long, plus we don't actually question enough why some newer players who choose to not continue the format after a short trial (or start the format at all). I honestly won't be surprised if a lot of newer players don't start / barely try the format because their favorite planeswalker ... can't be a Commander
I think this is a very valid argument unfortunately as you said we don't know if for the majority of people new to the format this is the case. I know only a few people who never tried/ tried and didn't continue so my sample size is waaay to small to conclude something from it. (4 people 2 of them just started playing magic altogether one rarely plays and one (the one who tried) has a self imposed limit of only cards up until and including mirrodin block and he really didn't like his options, and all of those 4 exclusivly play in the same playgroup)
My Own reason why I didn't like/try EDH at first was both the singleton aspect as well as the fact that I thought that you either couldn't use the commander meaningfully or basically just cast your commander over and over thus turning it more into a one card game. I changed when WWK came out and I really wanted to build a Omnath, Locus of Mana deck and none of my 60 card decks worked that well so I gave EDH a try and played ever since.
The clincher? Ultimately EDH is a casual format and we don't need the growth, so everything I said could be potentially treated as pointless - EDH has a stable active player base and doesn't need the growth and neither is the lack of growth "hurting" the format (because at this stage, the RC/format doesn't really benefit from growth, to be blunt), but at the same time I sometimes sit back and think, but even if it does not harm the format like it does for a lot of cases of "old boys' clubs collapsing" (hence I say it isn't negative for our case), it doesn't mean this line of thinking/inaction isn't considered one.
Even though I am still more on the "No Change" side I actually think needing growth should not be underevaluated but unfortunately as you stated before we don't know why people don't try it/stick with it. If it is the PW debate for the majority and the growth trumps the losses I would be all for it, even though I don't think that it opens much more doors gameplay wise, and those opened may be on the moe obnoxius side.
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Because it is always easier for the smaller group to Housrule stuff so if we gain more people than we'd loose the ones who don't like the change can still use houserules. It is however more difficult to houserule the bigger group.
Even though I am still more on the "No Change" side I actually think needing growth should not be underevaluated but unfortunately as you stated before we don't know why people don't try it/stick with it. If it is the PW debate for the majority and the growth trumps the losses I would be all for it, even though I don't think that it opens much more doors gameplay wise, and those opened may be on the moe obnoxius side.
Because it is always easier for the smaller group to Housrule stuff so if we gain more people than we'd loose the ones who don't like the change can still use houserules. It is however more difficult to houserule the bigger group.
I wouldn't say more growth is a straight reason for change (the previous post was more of a general observation of the format from my perspective), just pointing out the format is potentially stunting growth (that is doesn't really need now) due to the marketing direction of the game and in a hypothetical case that a sizable portion of the players leave (for whatever reasons), the format would actually struggle to recover numbers because the appeal doesn't line up with the newer player pool.
I'm fully aware of the gameplay consequences of such a change, which is why I don't actually advocate for the change like, right now, but I feel like a flat "no" and just listing down the mechanic/gameplay negatives is akin to ignoring that "growth" factors I mentioned. I don't foresee the marketing direction changing anytime soon so I only feel this issue would get more and more vocal with time as the bulk of players become newer and newer. I actually think what we should be doing instead is figuring out how to fit planeswalkers in without splitting the format into two. Just like I think saying a flat "no change" is ignoring the format's adaptability in the long run, saying "change, add them in", without any specifics and reasoning will wreck the game forefront (but that is already addressed by the straightfoward negatives we all can list).
I understand your houserule part - I'm a huge supporter of the RC's minimalism approach of the game and typically I would be on the "no change" side, but it struck me from the responses that at end of the day, the format itself is a "smaller group" to the game's "larger group" and the "larger group" has been on a quite the course in terms of marketing. Them creating Brawl (although it failed due to a myriad of factors of itself) already set off the alarms that we should not take the format for granted despite how robust it is now and it could easily languish in obscurity down the road if someone finds a formula that's "better" than the format that allows for planeswalkers, which in turn would appeal to an increasing number of newer players. We all know we can't just add planeswalkers in and call it a day, but is anyone doing the math to figure which rules we can change minimally to enable them with the least disruption?
As someone who survived things like the tuck rule change and removal of the BaaC list, the format will survive large changes. We cam survive allowing planeswalkers as commanders. We can survive hybrid mana. We can survive removing Commander damage, or any other change people want. (That doesn't mean it's necessarily a good change, only an observation that we will endure.)
That said, I imagine the number of players who would look at this change as the catalyst that gets them to start playing edh would be rather low.
So, what are the reasons to make planeswalkers legal? Other than for flavour. Are there any walkers that people want to build around without just trying to force the ultimate?
Daretti, Scrap Savant was interesting because his first two abilities could be built around. I would argue that almost all planeswalkers than can be played as commanders have sub-par ultimates and are really focused on the first two abilities.
So how many other planeswalkers would be interesting to build around?
I like playing planeswalkers in the 99, and I would not be a fan of having to ban a bunch of cards to enable very few new decks. So, please tell me what cards would be interesting new decks.
I'd say that there would be winners all across the different EDH tables: casual players would get to play with the flashiest cards of their collections, Vorthos fans would be able to create the most flavorful decks, Spikes like me would also get more options to choose from... The meta would just get more diversified, and more people would be drawn to the format. There's no real drawback from that. I also don't understand the part about slowing down games: there's a ton of value-based generals already, yet nobody is complaining about them. I have a few players in my different groups who show up with walkers, and games with them are equally as long as the games without. Just look at video lenghts on YouTube to try to compare, and you'll see that this feeling is based on no concrete evidence :/
You made a list of planeswalkers you want to build around, but I really do not see why. Care to explain?
Elspeth, sun's champion Tokens.... What's new? Wrath from the command zone+ self-contained win condition seems brutal, not fun. Gideon, champion of justice (I'd love to build a deck around him) - Why? For the +1? No, it is only for the ultimate, which is not fun. Serra the benevolent Why? Because of flavour reasons? Honestly see nothing interesting about this card. Jace, architect of thought I love this Jace, but what new strategies does he enable? Is it just about the ultimate? Jace, cunning castaway Ah, this one at least brings something new to the table. Kind of like a terrible mono-blue Edric. Jace, wielder of mysteries Oof, alternate win condition in the command zone that gives you value until you meet the conditions for the win. This is brutal. I am weary of this one. Phenax, God of Deception is an alterate win con in the command zone, but I think he is more interesting than lab maniac with upside. Narset, parter of veils Leovold was problematic and this would also be a problem. Tezzeret the seeker The poster child for why we would not want planeswalkers as commanders. He can tutor out so many combos. What can you do? You can't even counter the combos. There are so few answers to this... Tezzeret is inherently broken in the command zone. All you have to do is continuously spam him until you get your combo online. Liliana of the dark realms I love this card, but as a commander, really? Are you telling me you are trying to do something other than ultimate? Are you saying you just really like having 5 swamps in hand all game? If your idea of fun to build around is 'fun to build around the ultimate' then you are fighting a losing battle. Most ults win the game on the spot. The whole game would be about stopping the planeswalker ult. It is not fun. To be interesting, the non-ult abilities need to be the parts you build around. Liliana of the Veil (pox almost doesn't exist, that'd be a cool new archetype) Braids, Cabal Minion was the best at this. I guess this Liliana is okay for EDH... but honestly I think she is weak. She scales poorly in multiplayer. Liliana, dreadhorde general Yes, seems super fun!! Sorin Markov WHAT!!!!!?! We know this card would be insta-banned. Chandra, Flamecaller Again, self-contained win condition that wraths from the command zone is really not fun. Chandra, torch of defiance Versatile mono-red commander... gives removal and card advantage. Sure! Jaya Ballard (and she would be awesome) I guess she could be.... to a few people. Koth of the hammer - Insta-banned. It is a constant race to stop the ult which can easily take over the whole game. Sarkhan, Fireblood Sure... I guess it would improve mono-red stompy. Garruk Wildspeaker Easy to ultimate but not that backbreaking. There are a lot of ramp commanders and I guess this is okay in power. Is Garruk fun to build around? Nissa, WorldwakerNissa Revane... These are the two Nissas I dislike the most, but I guess you are entitled to this opinion. I don't understand what is interesting to build around here.
This is only going to get worse with how well WAR is being received.
Expect more focus on plot and story and walkers in the future.
The best course of action is to make them legal now, which will encourage wizards to design walkers with EDH in mind.
I mean, it won't. They make cards for all formats. Planeswalkers are big draws to standard so they will definitely make them Standard-viable (that is always their goal). Obviously, when you have 36 walkers in a set some can be more for commander (Arlinn for example), but I do not think they will start making their planeswalkers for EDH.
Why is the best course of action to make them all playable as commanders? There are so many that would need to be banned and everyone would start at 50-60 life instead of 40 because of the amount of time spent attacking walkers.
So far, I have seen a few options that could be fun as commanders, but for the most part they are not fun or would need to be banned.
Most ultimates are win conditions, and most other abilities are generic or devastating from the command zone. We do not have enough build-around planeswalkers that could be bringing new decks to the format.
You can't in the same breath as for people to explain what Planeswalkers people would like to build around or think would be fun and then dismiss it as another thing that does X Y or Z like that is a fair and not over harsh qualification to have. Commanders of all stripes are more than just the deck archetype they fit into I feel like this is pretty obvious and should need to be litigated.
And why not I will make a list (Alphabetical is the only order), also not gonna bother with WAR:
Now before you type that response that is something to the effect of that is 11 out of 178 planeswalkers what about all the other ones.
If I had to make a guess I have made Commander decks with probably 50 different Legendary Creatures and there are 838 of those so expecting one person to like or want to build with everything is and will always be foolish.
This is only going to get worse with how well WAR is being received.
Expect more focus on plot and story and walkers in the future.
The best course of action is to make them legal now, which will encourage wizards to design walkers with EDH in mind.
You mean like they don't design legendary creatures with EDH in mind, giving us stuff like Narset and Leovold? Or do you mean like when they DO design with EDH in mind and give us Prossh and Teferi?
Because remember, Wizards mentality is to make the card and let the Rules Committee deal with it if the card is a problem. So allowing all planeswalkers doesn't mean that Wizards starts making ones.that won't be OP in edh, it just means that many more cards every set that need to be evaluated under a new light (the way it plays in the Command Zone as well as in the 99).
Narset and Leo were 10000% designed with EDH at least in some part of mind, I think that is true for all Legendary's developed after the format got popular.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Anyone have a good example of this mythical Planeswalker that is developed that is at the same time fair and balanced in Standard and Too Strong in Commander?
Oh man oh man, have you not seen Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God? If that was legal as a Commander I would have sleeved that up the minute it got spoiled haha. And I'm not even a fan of Bolas! (Niv-Mizzet for life)
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
The card I was refering to was specifically Ob Nixilis, Unshackled.
Here's a nice list of potential very cool buildaround commanders: Elspeth, sun's champion Gideon, champion of justice (I'd love to build a deck around him) Serra the benevolent Jace, architect of thought Jace, cunning castaway Jace, wielder of mysteries Narset, parter of veils Tezzeret the seeker Liliana of the dark realms Liliana of the Veil (pox almost doesn't exist, that'd be a cool new archetype) Liliana, dreadhorde general Sorin Markov Chandra, Flamecaller Chandra, torch of defiance Jaya Ballard (and she would be awesome) Koth of the hammer Sarkhan, Fireblood Garruk Wildspeaker Nissa, Worldwaker Nissa Revane... and that's just a personnal pick of monocolored walkers. Plus, the ban argument doesn't seem right to me, as I don't believe there is a single walker banworthy. I mean, none of them is even remotely close in terms of power to Teferi, Temporal Archmage and he is still alive and kicking after all !
I'd say that there would be winners all across the different EDH tables: casual players would get to play with the flashiest cards of their collections, Vorthos fans would be able to create the most flavorful decks, Spikes like me would also get more options to choose from... The meta would just get more diversified, and more people would be drawn to the format. There's no real drawback from that. I also don't understand the part about slowing down games: there's a ton of value-based generals already, yet nobody is complaining about them. I have a few players in my different groups who show up with walkers, and games with them are equally as long as the games without. Just look at video lenghts on YouTube to try to compare, and you'll see that this feeling is based on no concrete evidence :/
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Serious question. Have you actually played against this deck, or did you just search gatherer for a legendary creature that had this effect? Because, honestly, I have never played against this card. Commander or otherwise. That’s like saying Leovled, emissary of trest shouldn’t be banned because Notion Thief is legal.
As for the rest, most have points have been covered extensively. Pretty sick of seeing the Teferi, Temporal Archmage parallels, considering he’s legal and the others aren’t, so you have zero data to back up your claim. I mean, not to go back to Ashiok, but I can hard lock the table, and win with damage, for the same cost as Teferi, with additional colors for support. It’s not hard to see other PW’s beating him out in raw power from the command zone either.
I’ve enlisted a few friends to try some PW decks with me over the next couple of days. Our first game is tonight. Tonight we are trying unique decks built around PW’s, and tomorrow or Sunday we are going to try swapping in a PW for an existing deck, because I feel as though that PW decks aren’t going to be without ways to incorporate them into the strategy, like every other deck...
The Teferi argument is obvious though: he's got a easily tutorable one card (two if you count the one rock required to go off) combo that instantly wins the game upon completion. The only ones that comes close to that are most likely Sarkhan, unbroken and Samut, the tested for being able to combo out with Doubling Season (which du to the nature of said ultimates are more fragile than Teferi + Veil) while having access to more colors and having a very good value package.
I really hope you'll have fun trying these out!
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True, wheels weren’t the only reason, considering it was all in one package. It wouldn’t have been banworthy at all without that line of text, though. So that isn’t a very valid point one way or the other.
How about Karn, the great creator and Mycosynth Lattice? So, you’re advocating we add more broken combos to the format?
For every “Well, it’s not as broken as this”, there will be a “you sure about that?” from me. Because, again, nobody is building with these because they aren’t legal.
Karn would be such an interesting card to build around indeed, that static ability would allow colorless players to finally have a real cEDH option to choose! That combo doesn't win games outright though, especially since it doesn't stop creatures from being turned sideways to kill Karn... or his controller. But while his -2 can't be used for tutoring in EDH though (and colorless is the worst at tutoring anything anyway), be I'm sure there's some nice combos waiting to be found with cards that exiles themselves like Ugin's nexus. Even in the 99, his -2 can be used to bypass the commander tax if you're using a legendary artifact creature...
But let's not linger in the "is-it-broken-or-not" department: after all you are perfectly right, as much as I'd like to think all planeswalker have already more or less been figured out, nothing would beat the test of time and experience (which is why I'm really happy to see that despite being completely against that, you're still compeltely willing to try it out and see things for yourself).
However, this leads us to another topic being widely discussed here: the banlist itself.
Why should we be afraid of banning a few highly problematic walkers? I mean, there's already a handful of banned legendary creatures. And to caricature, we're not banning all legendary creature from being chosen as generals out of fear of them being broken since they're not designed for that purpose... Or else we'd just be playing Highlander! That also brings us to what was EDH at the core: a fun format where you could lead your army and cast your spells as your favorite character. Had the format been created after Lorwyn, walkers would have probably been allowed from the start.
Banning a few problematic walkers would be better than outright banning all of them from being in the command zone don't you think? As walkers aren't a very common permanent type in decklists, banning one after proof that it would be unbalanced in multiplayer wouldn't have a very high impact (and truth is, I probably hate to see bans as much as you do as I have to switch variants of my decks to play with my friends in multiplayer or French 1v1).
Anyway, I hope you'll get to the same conclusion as me after playtesting with your friends... and that more importantly, you still get to have fun doing so!
Modern Storm
Modern Taking Turns
EDH Jhoira of the Ghitu
From my expierience Playing Daretti, Scrap Savantmyself and having a Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury in my regular playgroup, as long as people know when to play them (just like with other combos) they tend to stick despite the creatures your opponents have as you protect them with your own or have other ways to protect them.
So much this, I myself am also on the end of not allowing Planeswalkers as commanders generally, As I think as I stated before it does more harm than good.
By not adding much in case of playable commanders (a lot of the "buildarounds" have better options or not much support, or would tend to decks alot of people don't like to play against). But I genuinely think that regular Playgroups can make PWs as commander happen easily in a way that everyone in the group is happy.
The problem isn't just only the question of how powerful/fun the planeswalkers are but also what people want. Just as there are many people who advocate for Planeswalkers as commanders there are many who dont like that idea or even planeswalkers in general. And I do belive that more people would stop playing EDH (in Nonregular groups/MTGO/etc.) because they allowed PWs as commanders than people would stop because they don't get to play PWs as commanders.
Another minor possible annoyance which is worth mentioning even though it is a slippery slope argument is that the change could have an impact on how wizards design future PWs and legendary creatures.
Wholehartedly agree, but the longer you wait to change something the more impact it will have, both positive and negative.
Thats why this discussion exist, and I tend to be on the side that it will have more negative implications than positive.
EDIT:
I wouldn't be opposed to a testrun similarly to Unstable, especially online as that is the biggest nonregular group thus offering the most data.
Care to enlighten me on this one, oh grand master?
Will be following up with results from games last night. Played 3 games in about ~4 hours. Was supposed to be 5 of us, one couple couldn’t make it. So, not ideal conditions to test, but will share them regardless. The 3 walkers were Venser, The Soujerner, Garruk Wildspeaker and Ashiok Dream Render was mine, considering I’ve been banging that drum for 2-3 days. Good thing I didn’t add Maralen, then.
This had me thinking - how much of an "old boys' club" will the format fall into as the overall direction of the game is heavily marketed towards planeswalkers? Please note I'm just using "old boys' club" as a neutral term, not a negative one, but just from observation of both the game and format over the years, I think it's the apt term to describe what could potentially happen to the format, but as weird as it sounds, without the typical negative connotations with it.
Let's put it this way - it's easy to say more people will leave the format with PWs were added than otherwise, but I think the statement is sort of heavily stunted towards the fact we're mostly in groups of people who were with the format for already so long, plus we don't actually question enough why some newer players who choose to not continue the format after a short trial (or start the format at all). I honestly won't be surprised if a lot of newer players don't start / barely try the format because their favorite planeswalker (which many newer players tend to have due to the overall game's marketing direction) can't be a Commander and hence there's a whole lot incentive for them to delve into the terrifying depth of the format gone (remember we're probably the most terrifying format to a new player in terms of cardpool and structure).
Considering I don't expect the marketing direction of the game to change anytime soon, the amount of new players we "lose potentially" will probably compound year after year and I won't be surprised at some threshold the number we "lost" is greater than the number of players who actually actively played the game (some of us probably have to leave for external reasons, but for most part I count them as part of the playerbase, since I'm compounding numbers).
The clincher? Ultimately EDH is a casual format and we don't need the growth, so everything I said could be potentially treated as pointless - EDH has a stable active player base and doesn't need the growth and neither is the lack of growth "hurting" the format (because at this stage, the RC/format doesn't really benefit from growth, to be blunt), but at the same time I sometimes sit back and think, but even if it does not harm the format like it does for a lot of cases of "old boys' clubs collapsing" (hence I say it isn't negative for our case), it doesn't mean this line of thinking/inaction isn't considered one.
Imagine if planeswalkers existed from the very start but the the RC tried to introduce the (post-ED-only) format as it is, I'm quite sure the format wouldn't have taken off if people couldn't play with their Urzas and Serras. To be very blunt, the format "lucked" out into establishing itself before planeswalker cards were a thing, but at the same time I would point out to new players (or even returning ones who skipped the whole era EDH grew from, now that retro planeswalkers are a thing), the format would be seen through pretty much the same lens as the imagination spot I started with.
We're sort of at a point there's nothing to be "gained" from venturing out (because growth doesn't mean as much now), but at same time, I don't think we should treat the "potential losses" as "invisible", even if it doesn't actually affect us negatively. I feel like the "no change" arguments tend to be "stronger" by default because it involves more people among those who already understand the format whereas new players who would otherwise join cannot put up an argument because they don't grasp the format as well and in grand scheme of things, I doubt there will be enough new players willing undertake the task of understanding the format just to evoke this change.
I think this is a very valid argument unfortunately as you said we don't know if for the majority of people new to the format this is the case. I know only a few people who never tried/ tried and didn't continue so my sample size is waaay to small to conclude something from it. (4 people 2 of them just started playing magic altogether one rarely plays and one (the one who tried) has a self imposed limit of only cards up until and including mirrodin block and he really didn't like his options, and all of those 4 exclusivly play in the same playgroup)
My Own reason why I didn't like/try EDH at first was both the singleton aspect as well as the fact that I thought that you either couldn't use the commander meaningfully or basically just cast your commander over and over thus turning it more into a one card game. I changed when WWK came out and I really wanted to build a Omnath, Locus of Mana deck and none of my 60 card decks worked that well so I gave EDH a try and played ever since.
Even though I am still more on the "No Change" side I actually think needing growth should not be underevaluated but unfortunately as you stated before we don't know why people don't try it/stick with it. If it is the PW debate for the majority and the growth trumps the losses I would be all for it, even though I don't think that it opens much more doors gameplay wise, and those opened may be on the moe obnoxius side.
EDIT:
Because it is always easier for the smaller group to Housrule stuff so if we gain more people than we'd loose the ones who don't like the change can still use houserules. It is however more difficult to houserule the bigger group.
I wouldn't say more growth is a straight reason for change (the previous post was more of a general observation of the format from my perspective), just pointing out the format is potentially stunting growth (that is doesn't really need now) due to the marketing direction of the game and in a hypothetical case that a sizable portion of the players leave (for whatever reasons), the format would actually struggle to recover numbers because the appeal doesn't line up with the newer player pool.
I'm fully aware of the gameplay consequences of such a change, which is why I don't actually advocate for the change like, right now, but I feel like a flat "no" and just listing down the mechanic/gameplay negatives is akin to ignoring that "growth" factors I mentioned. I don't foresee the marketing direction changing anytime soon so I only feel this issue would get more and more vocal with time as the bulk of players become newer and newer. I actually think what we should be doing instead is figuring out how to fit planeswalkers in without splitting the format into two. Just like I think saying a flat "no change" is ignoring the format's adaptability in the long run, saying "change, add them in", without any specifics and reasoning will wreck the game forefront (but that is already addressed by the straightfoward negatives we all can list).
I understand your houserule part - I'm a huge supporter of the RC's minimalism approach of the game and typically I would be on the "no change" side, but it struck me from the responses that at end of the day, the format itself is a "smaller group" to the game's "larger group" and the "larger group" has been on a quite the course in terms of marketing. Them creating Brawl (although it failed due to a myriad of factors of itself) already set off the alarms that we should not take the format for granted despite how robust it is now and it could easily languish in obscurity down the road if someone finds a formula that's "better" than the format that allows for planeswalkers, which in turn would appeal to an increasing number of newer players. We all know we can't just add planeswalkers in and call it a day, but is anyone doing the math to figure which rules we can change minimally to enable them with the least disruption?
That said, I imagine the number of players who would look at this change as the catalyst that gets them to start playing edh would be rather low.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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You made a list of planeswalkers you want to build around, but I really do not see why. Care to explain?
Elspeth, sun's champion Tokens.... What's new? Wrath from the command zone+ self-contained win condition seems brutal, not fun.
Gideon, champion of justice (I'd love to build a deck around him) - Why? For the +1? No, it is only for the ultimate, which is not fun.
Serra the benevolent Why? Because of flavour reasons? Honestly see nothing interesting about this card.
Jace, architect of thought I love this Jace, but what new strategies does he enable? Is it just about the ultimate?
Jace, cunning castaway Ah, this one at least brings something new to the table. Kind of like a terrible mono-blue Edric.
Jace, wielder of mysteries Oof, alternate win condition in the command zone that gives you value until you meet the conditions for the win. This is brutal. I am weary of this one. Phenax, God of Deception is an alterate win con in the command zone, but I think he is more interesting than lab maniac with upside.
Narset, parter of veils Leovold was problematic and this would also be a problem.
Tezzeret the seeker The poster child for why we would not want planeswalkers as commanders. He can tutor out so many combos. What can you do? You can't even counter the combos. There are so few answers to this... Tezzeret is inherently broken in the command zone. All you have to do is continuously spam him until you get your combo online.
Liliana of the dark realms I love this card, but as a commander, really? Are you telling me you are trying to do something other than ultimate? Are you saying you just really like having 5 swamps in hand all game? If your idea of fun to build around is 'fun to build around the ultimate' then you are fighting a losing battle. Most ults win the game on the spot. The whole game would be about stopping the planeswalker ult. It is not fun. To be interesting, the non-ult abilities need to be the parts you build around.
Liliana of the Veil (pox almost doesn't exist, that'd be a cool new archetype) Braids, Cabal Minion was the best at this. I guess this Liliana is okay for EDH... but honestly I think she is weak. She scales poorly in multiplayer.
Liliana, dreadhorde general Yes, seems super fun!!
Sorin Markov WHAT!!!!!?! We know this card would be insta-banned.
Chandra, Flamecaller Again, self-contained win condition that wraths from the command zone is really not fun.
Chandra, torch of defiance Versatile mono-red commander... gives removal and card advantage. Sure!
Jaya Ballard (and she would be awesome) I guess she could be.... to a few people.
Koth of the hammer - Insta-banned. It is a constant race to stop the ult which can easily take over the whole game.
Sarkhan, Fireblood Sure... I guess it would improve mono-red stompy.
Garruk Wildspeaker Easy to ultimate but not that backbreaking. There are a lot of ramp commanders and I guess this is okay in power. Is Garruk fun to build around?
Nissa, Worldwaker Nissa Revane... These are the two Nissas I dislike the most, but I guess you are entitled to this opinion. I don't understand what is interesting to build around here.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
No other legendary things are getting drawn by Yo*****aka Amano
Expect more focus on plot and story and walkers in the future.
The best course of action is to make them legal now, which will encourage wizards to design walkers with EDH in mind.
I mean, it won't. They make cards for all formats. Planeswalkers are big draws to standard so they will definitely make them Standard-viable (that is always their goal). Obviously, when you have 36 walkers in a set some can be more for commander (Arlinn for example), but I do not think they will start making their planeswalkers for EDH.
Why is the best course of action to make them all playable as commanders? There are so many that would need to be banned and everyone would start at 50-60 life instead of 40 because of the amount of time spent attacking walkers.
So far, I have seen a few options that could be fun as commanders, but for the most part they are not fun or would need to be banned.
Most ultimates are win conditions, and most other abilities are generic or devastating from the command zone. We do not have enough build-around planeswalkers that could be bringing new decks to the format.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
And why not I will make a list (Alphabetical is the only order), also not gonna bother with WAR:
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, Ajani Unyielding, Ajani, Valiant Protector: All would make incredible GW Commanders of a midrange / hatebear variety.
Ajani Vengeant would make an incredible Boros Control commander it is shame the stigma that exists around destroying lands.
Angrath, the Flame-Chained: Would lead a sweet Rakdos theft deck that can also punish long games / GY strategies
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver: This form of Blue/Black control would be fun.
Dack Fayden: The Greatest Thief Deck in the Multiverse
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast: RAKDOS ARTIFACTS sign me right up
Dovin, Grand Arbiter: Sweet Azorious token based Commander
Kaya, Ghost Assassin: Orhzov Control hell yes
Saheeli Rai: Izzet Tokens on a lower CMC Commander with so much potential.
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas: Dimir artifacts has a lot of space open in it and a lot of the Tezzes fill that role.
Xenagos, the Reveler: A second great RG High Tide Commander
Now before you type that response that is something to the effect of that is 11 out of 178 planeswalkers what about all the other ones.
If I had to make a guess I have made Commander decks with probably 50 different Legendary Creatures and there are 838 of those so expecting one person to like or want to build with everything is and will always be foolish.
You mean like they don't design legendary creatures with EDH in mind, giving us stuff like Narset and Leovold? Or do you mean like when they DO design with EDH in mind and give us Prossh and Teferi?
Because remember, Wizards mentality is to make the card and let the Rules Committee deal with it if the card is a problem. So allowing all planeswalkers doesn't mean that Wizards starts making ones.that won't be OP in edh, it just means that many more cards every set that need to be evaluated under a new light (the way it plays in the Command Zone as well as in the 99).
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Which is it? Do they design based on EDH now, or not?
You cannot honestly say they don't design Legends with EDH in mind, then say making PWs legal would make them do so.