Have they spoiled any walkers that has the rider "this guy/gal can be your commander" on it?
I've heard MaRo confirmed they won't add that line (although they could) to any standard product because it was confusing standard players.
Which is sad, because 90% of the spoiled PW's could be generals without any issue.
As for the Karn debate, let's assume you got the Lattice, Ramp and everything you need.
Magical Christmas land.
You need to cast it and hope it doesn't get destroyed.
You need to cast Karn, hoping enemies won't float mana to burn him/kill him or counter him.
Also by the Turn 3, some enemies will have creatures on board.
Yes you locked the board, but you are without cards or defense.
Seems nuts that they're doing a PW-everywhere set, but nothing playable as a general. Wait, i think i saw a 5c dragon. But that'd be like the 4th or 5th 5c dragon we have.. not sure if we really needed one more.
I don't think i'd wanna see any of these walkers as the head of an EDH deck though. I can definitely see the (a bit) theme though, but not enough to offset the "you're a planeswalker, and have a pet...planeswalker as your trusty sidekick to whoop butt" disconnect that occurs. Having a pet dragon as your familiar makes more sense. But maybe ill run this by my group to test some of the more potentially problematic walkers to see how broken they really are.
A friend of mine suggested this should have been the card they printed instead of the latest uncommon Nahiri Walker
Obviously it's a tad much, but the point was certain color combinations (mainly the worst color combination in EDH, Boros) could really benefit from having walkers as commanders. So one or two might be a bit busted, looking at you Tezzeret... but if it's busted, ban the card, not the entire Card Type!
And I know... the RC don't want to have two seperate ban lists for Commanders and the 99, but are we really so unintelligent that we can't work out which is which? I think we deserve a little more credit than that.
With War of the Spark, Wizards has gone to a lot of effort to make sure Walkers are accessible and thought-through, so isn't it time we give Planeswalker Commanders a chance?
I can definitely see the (a bit) theme though, but not enough to offset the "you're a planeswalker, and have a pet...planeswalker as your trusty sidekick to whoop butt" disconnect that occurs. Having a pet dragon as your familiar makes more sense. But maybe ill run this by my group to test some of the more potentially problematic walkers to see how broken they really are.
@schweinefett is that what it's supposed to be? I always just sort of imagined we were playing as the commander (Like the old pc game Total Annihilation lol)
I hope your playtesting goes well, I can't imagine you'd even notice a difference in the long term
Ok, someone really needs to explain to me why Nahiri, the harbinger - a planeswalker with less play on edhrec than dovin baan (the original one? The one that sucks horribly and deserves no play at all?) - would be the savior that would save boros from suckitude. Her +2 is just a worse daretti ability. Her -2 is fine but much worse when it's predictable out of the command zone. And her ult is fine, but this isn't a format like modern where one eldrazi attack is going to shut someone out of the game forever. Honestly I'd go so far as to say her ult is one of the worst of all the walkers for this format.
What's so special about nahiri? Almost every other color combination has better walkers available for commanders. If anything it would probably make boros even worse.
If you want walkers as commanders then cool, ask your playgroup about it, but this "help boros" excuse is flimsy as all hell.
Ok, someone really needs to explain to me why Nahiri, the harbinger - a planeswalker with less play on edhrec than dovin baan (the original one? The one that sucks horribly and deserves no play at all?) - would be the savior that would save boros from suckitude. Her +2 is just a worse daretti ability. Her -2 is fine but much worse when it's predictable out of the command zone. And her ult is fine, but this isn't a format like modern where one eldrazi attack is going to shut someone out of the game forever. Honestly I'd go so far as to say her ult is one of the worst of all the walkers for this format.
What's so special about nahiri? Almost every other color combination has better walkers available for commanders. If anything it would probably make boros even worse.
If you want walkers as commanders then cool, ask your playgroup about it, but this "help boros" excuse is flimsy as all hell.
This is sort of exactly my point, Nahiri isn't brilliant, no-one is going to say wow that's OP it should be banned, which is why in her case at least, having a planeswalker commander would be totally fine, how could anyone complain?
The reason I personally think she'd be good for Boros, is just because she's completely different to what's out there. The 'problem' with Boros commanders at the moment is that they're all saying the same thing: Attack Attack Attack.
But Nahiri doesn't care about attacking, she opens up a door to a different kind of build. Her + for instance could go well with soem of the white reanimation, or the red artifact recursion, no other boros commander can do this. The - ability is versatile (but conditional) removal on a boros commander, again not OP, but again unheard of in Boros. And the ult... there's probably something really silly you could do with it, all I can think of is Blightsteel Colossus, but whatever you get, it's actually card advantage which again, is unheard of in Boros.
Edit: She'd also let you build a deck that isn't creature dependant (which far as I know isn't a thing in Boros?) Meaning you could run more board wipes more often, and claw back the value that way.
I'll grant that she'd be different than what we've currently got, but she wouldn't be better. Boros has 2 problems, one being that their commanders are frequently similar in strategy, but the other being that it just generally sucks. Nahiri does next to nothing to help the latter. She does help the former a bit, but there ARE existing boros commanders that don't focus around combat, like FS+SS and Depala. Could we use more? Yes, definitely. Should we drastically change the rules of the entire format in order to give boros a few new ones? Uh......no. The fault for boros' suckitude rests on the shoulders of wotc, who keep printing trash-tier boros commanders even in supplemental products. The solution is to keep whining about it until they pay attention.
Anyway as long as we're massively restructuring the format in order to make boros more fun, I'd rather play path of mettle than any RW planeswalkers. It's ramp, it has a fresh build-around, and it's super cool. Come on, RC! Why won't you listen to the will of the people and make legendary enchantments legal commanders?!?! /sarcasm
Why won't you listen to the will of the people and make legendary enchantments legal commanders?!?! /sarcasm
I'm sensing some undue hostility, who hurt you bro?
I never said she'd fix all of Boros's problems, just that she'd help to shake things up. By your own examples we currently have only two non-aggro choices, Fire Song and Sunspeaker, and Depala, Pilot Exemplar. Compare that with any other color combo short of Rakdos and we're outnumbered 10 to 1 (figure of speach - dont judge me)
Anyway, I know an argument's gone too far when I have to re-read my original post. All i'm saying is it's worth giving walkers a try, where's the harm in that.
Well, to play devil's advocate a bit, Brion stoutarm also doesn't involve combat, nor does Gisela, blade of goldnight (she often does, but doesn't have to), Munda (he's crap though), Razia, boros archangel(also crap), and Tiana, ship's caretaker(also crap). So...yeah, adding one more crap commander to the pile doesn't seem like it'd make a big difference.
If you want to play planeswalker commanders, that seems like a totally fine thing to talk about with your playgroup. And I don't have anything against discussing a global rules change, either, I'm personally kind of undecided on the issue - naturally most planeswalkers make cool commanders since they usually have 3+ abilities (at least until now), but I also don't know that there's good justification for it, and restrictions breed creativity.
But the boros problem is 100% separate from the planeswalker discussion. Both things worth discussing, to be sure. But separately. Everything you've posted reads like you just really want nahiri available because it's your pet planeswalker - which is fine, but it's not a good justification for legalizing them just because she happens to be boros.
Ok that's a fair point. So I just had a search on gatherer to see what other walkers might have a similar effect on their color combinations, ie. opening up a different way of playing things from the norm. Honestly i struggled. Aside from Nahiri, all I could come up with is Sarkhan Unbroken (because Temur is traditionally the colors of combo: Animar + Riku being the main culprits) and also Angrath, the Flame-Chained (because surprisingly perhaps, there are no Rakdos Commanders that attack opponents hands, an obvious way to get card advantage)
But other than that you're right, I just want it for Boros (but because she looks interesting, i don't do pets )
Well Sheldon goes into some detail in today's article,but I'll quote the part here:
Before we get there, I want to talk about planeswalkers as commanders. Or more correctly, planeswalkers not as commanders (unless the card specifically says so).
The reason we're talking about it now is because we on the Commander Rules Committee have been inundated on social media asking if we're going to do a thing with War of the Spark like we did with Unstable. If you don't remember, we made Un-cards legal from the day they were released (8 December 2017) until the ensuing Banned List announcement, just over a month later. We had an easily defined end date. We weren't looking for any data and we weren't testing to see if we should make silver-bordered cards legal. We just thought it would be fun for a short period of time. Because silver-bordered cards aren't normally legal, messaging was relatively easy. It was a little messy because we still banned fourteen cards and warned folks about eight more, representing a significant percentage of the cards in the newly available pool, but not so messy that it might cause trouble in the long run.
Planeswalkers are an entirely different animal.
Making them all legal as commanders for a finite period provides a few administrative challenges and the flavor issues, the combination of which leads us to the conclusion that doing so is not in the best interest of the format. It's not that we think the concept is too difficult for Magic players to grasp; we're pretty comfortable with the community's ability to process complex ideas. The biggest thing is that messaging becomes difficult—not now, but down the road.
First, there's not the same kind of separation between normal Magic cards and planeswalkers like there is with silver-bordered cards, since planeswalkers are normal Magic cards. We wouldn't be making illegal cards legal for a short period of time; we'd be making legal cards function differently for a period of time. We feel like this would cause some long-term confusion, not necessarily for the heavily enfranchised player, but for the occasional one.
The second big reason is that, even though it would seem like having a bunch of new planeswalkers coming out in War of the Spark would seem an opportune time to give planeswalkers-as-commanders a try, we feel like folks would get the wrong impression – namely, that we're considering making such a change permanently. At this time, we are not and we don't have any plans to do so in the long run. To hint at anything else would be quite disingenuous. We'd rather you trust what we say and not have to try to figure out the hidden code. People have suggested that it's a good time to test planeswalkers as commanders, and they might be right, assuming we were considering heading down that road; since we aren't, we don't want to send out mixed signals.
We've already laid out on a few occasions why we don't want to make all planeswalkers into commanders, so I'll just offer you the short version. First and foremost (and perhaps most simply), they're not legendary creatures. We don't see a compelling reason to expand the definition of what can be a commander beyond what it already is, from both flavor and mechanical perspectives. Legendary creatures being commanders is format-defining. It's not like we're hurting for choices, either. There are plenty of potential commanders (800+ if my count is correct) for all play styles and themes and in all color combinations (okay, maybe there aren't too many choices for Azorius Aggro, but you get the point). While there's some support for planeswalkers as commanders, in a recent survey over at MTG Salvation, folks voted nearly two to one against the idea. Obviously that sample size isn't statistically significant enough to make decisions about, but it shows us that, at least in one corner of the community, people agree with us.
The second major point is that we'd have to ban enough of the planeswalkers that we'd swell the ranks of the banned list more than we're comfortable with. Having them available in the command zone makes these already powerful cards even more powerful. Part of the self-limiting factor of planeswalkers is their number of loyalty counters; when you get to refresh them for just a little extra mana, they can get silly. While we like powerful cards just as much as the next person, it would be asking the format to bear an unnecessary burden.
Add to all those reasons that there's a format in which you can play planeswalkers as commanders, Brawl, and it becomes even easier for Commander to maintain its distinctness. Putting all the available planeswalkers in the command zone would undeniably change the shape of the format, and it's not in a direct way that we think we'd be happy with. This of course comes with the caveat that we support local groups modifying things to suit their own needs. People sometimes ask, if that's the case, why have a banned list or rules at all? The answer is pretty straightforward – we simply want to make sure that when folks go outside their local environments, everyone is on the same page. There is a "baseline" Commander for everyone to work from. At your kitchen table, all bets are off.
so not to sound like i'm taking the mic, but a part of why the RC doesn't like PWs as generals is that they don't want to have to ban PWs unnecessarily (because they removed the 'banned as commander' type of bans)? i think that makes sense.
I didn't realise that brawl allows PWs as generals actually. i don't know anyone who plays that, so i don't really know how that format plays.
I can definitely see the (a bit) theme though, but not enough to offset the "you're a planeswalker, and have a pet...planeswalker as your trusty sidekick to whoop butt" disconnect that occurs. Having a pet dragon as your familiar makes more sense. But maybe ill run this by my group to test some of the more potentially problematic walkers to see how broken they really are.
@schweinefett is that what it's supposed to be? I always just sort of imagined we were playing as the commander (Like the old pc game Total Annihilation lol)
I hope your playtesting goes well, I can't imagine you'd even notice a difference in the long term
I've no idea, to be honest. Being the actual general in the game seems cool... but then you get weird situations where you have a mono-red squee, the immortal deck... he's not smart enough to die, but he's somehow smart enough to cast an apex of power? or be smart enough to use a sensei's divining top?
the whole PW as generals idea i think i was for at some point in time, but having thought about it a bit more, I'm not really sure how much it'd actually contribute to the game. And besides, i'm spending a lot of my time testing painter for EDH and legacy, so i don't think testing PWs would actually be a good use of my time.
The proliferate support is actually more concerning to me than anything in this set. It's going to be absolutely intolerable. And PW commanders would just make it worse. It's honestly close to enough to make me not want to play EDH just thinking about it.
Question for those who voted yes in this poll: did you consider the second order effect that if all PWs were allowed as Commanders, knowing we'd ban some (which I'm pretty sure you figured out), you then wouldn't have the banned ones available as 1 of 99? If you thought of it, how did it factor into your decision?
Question for those who voted yes in this poll: did you consider the second order effect that if all PWs were allowed as Commanders, knowing we'd ban some (which I'm pretty sure you figured out), you then wouldn't have the banned ones available as 1 of 99? If you thought of it, how did it factor into your decision?
I wound up changing my vote to no after much discussion and thinking about it.
Seeing cards like Tezzeret or Venser that I generally enjoy banned definitely impacts my thinking just a little but it's very low down the list. Most of the guys you'd banned would be more like Tezzeret, who as much as I enjoy, I would not mind seeing banned -- I can't think of any walker more bannable than the existing two bannable ones (teferi and estrid) who are already legal, so it doesn't stress me out a lot.
The thing that I fear the most is that they would create more incentives to play small numbers of creatures and high number of effects that stall the game. This is already a style of game that is not particularly that fun in EDH and I think there's plenty of support for it.
On the flipside, the thing I like the most about walkers is that they potentially enable some color combinations with weak commanders to have stronger options or at the least more varied options.
Question for those who voted yes in this poll: did you consider the second order effect that if all PWs were allowed as Commanders, knowing we'd ban some (which I'm pretty sure you figured out), you then wouldn't have the banned ones available as 1 of 99? If you thought of it, how did it factor into your decision?
It mostly didn't factor at all.
Say you've got a card like Sorin Markov that you think is way too griefy, and you think ought to be banned. By allowing planeswalkers to be commanders, you don't change how the card is played. As a commander, Sorin Markov will continue to be as intolerable as he's always been. The only difference is that players are now exposed to Sorin more than they were before. By banning Sorin, all you're saying is, "This card has always been a problem, but it was never prevalent enough to justify action. Now with it being a legal commander, it will be prevalent enough, so action is warranted."
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I didn't realise that brawl allows PWs as generals actually. i don't know anyone who plays that, so i don't really know how that format
I'm not sure anyone plays the format. I never saw anyone play it, had a couple people ask if anyone was interested, and it seems to have died out even quicker than Tiny Leaders.
Who knows, though - maybe this set will bring a revival of Brawl. I mean, there's 36 planeswalkers and a dozen or more legendary creatures, which means lots of variety.
The proliferate support is actually more concerning to me than anything in this set. It's going to be absolutely intolerable. And PW commanders would just make it worse. It's honestly close to enough to make me not want to play EDH just thinking about it.
Agreed. And at first glance my initial reaction is "gee I'm glad I dont have to face some of these as commanders".
While the focus has been on gameplay, how many people would be impacted for necessary bans, and so on, something that also needs to be considered is how the secondary market would react. Wizards doesn't have the luxury of caring about the secondary market, but it's a consideration we can have. With that said, let me build a case here:
-Most Planeswalkers are one-time iterations based on the story/setting; no reason to reprint them again and they won't be.
-Only a small handful of competitive staples (JTMS, LOTV, Karn, occasional Lorwyn 5) see reprints, and not even regularly.
-Planeswalkers have been Mythic rarity post-Lorwyn, making their supply much lower compared to other cards.
-The supply would not meet the demand, making a rule change for PWers ripe for market manipulation/buyouts.
-Even less commonly used Planeswalkers settle around $5-10 over time, unless they're just really really bad (but - may be amazing as an on-demand cast from the Command Zone).
-The speculator response to a rule change would lead to a great many PWers landing in the $20-50 range.
-Speculators are safe on flipping these/cornering the market, because PWers are very, very rarely reprinted, low supply, existing greater casual demand, pre-CMDR PW change if it happened.
-Because they are safe speculation, they can sit on these without the market budging much. They would not settle very far from where they land.
-Not only would speculators jump on this, but with a mass amount of people buying into PWers, the supply and market would strain.
-A whole section of the market would become quickly out of reach for casual people, PWer collectors and Commander players alike.
-One argument I've seen is that PWers are the face of the game and should be available (it's a shallow argument not worth considering tbh)
-This wave would put most PWers out of reach of kitchen table players and newer players getting into the game. Commander has become HUGE and WILL have that kind of impact.
-If you have any doubt about any of this, look at The Command Zone and SaffronOlive Effect, Protean Hulk when it was unbanned (before the M25 reprint), etc.
-This isn't fair to kitchen table players or the rest of the game.
All of this is a secondary effect of allowing PWers and it's guaranteed. This is before considering how many cards have to end up being banned over time that people are already playing. Superfriends is a popular archetype that uses a specific subset of cards that could easily have a case for being banned, and we'd probably at least see a few more bans post-change announcement as we see exactly what ripples this will cause. All of this is theorycraft. But the result? Potentially more bans in the format than we've seen in the last 8 years, just so people can play Planeswalkers, and the waves through the secondary market putting a good chunk out of them out of reach or at least a stretch away from the accessibility needed with such a change.
The proliferate support is actually more concerning to me than anything in this set. It's going to be absolutely intolerable. And PW commanders would just make it worse. It's honestly close to enough to make me not want to play EDH just thinking about it.
Agreed. And at first glance my initial reaction is "gee I'm glad I dont have to face some of these as commanders".
And now we have a Landfall proliferator. That one made me blink to see if I read it right.
I honestly cannot believe they doubled down on proliferate so hard. If they ever manage to make planeswalker commanders legal I seriously doubt I will keep playing. The whole "sweep the board, plus and proliferate all my walkers" decks are going to be bad enough as is if you're not playing CEDH.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
All i'm saying is it's worth giving walkers a try, where's the harm in that.
It makes the good color combinations even better. It does not improve the lower tier
This is incredibly accurate. GU is far and away one of the most refined color pairs for Commander. Gives access to everything, universal answers, ramp, protection and payoffs. Most of the spoiled cards so far would push a GUX PW deck to absurd levels of consistency, and at lower power levels to boot. I just wouldn’t ever want to sit down across from one, and this includes existing PW commanders, with what’s been spoiled.
To me, this set effectively puts the nail in the coffin as far as I’m concerned. It isn’t ever going to happen unless there is some drastic philosophical change. You could easily end up with 15+ ‘walkers that would be ban worthy right out of the gate, which is insane. Either that, or you ban a bunch of enablers, which would result in a simarily large addition to the ban list.
However, one thing this set has shown, is that PW support can be appropriately costed to help make playing them in EDH that much more enticing. There are plenty of cards that make choosing a PW in the 99 that much easier because there is relevant support that greases the rest of the deck as well.
KElzam actually made the best argument, and it's a monetary one.
JTMS being in the $300+ range, along with Lily of the Veil, with no foreseeable reprint, would make for some annoying outcomes.
Tiny Leaders allows them as well, but the limitation of CMC3 or less makes things a lot less broken.
I'd be in favour of PW as Commanders though. Someone drops NewTezz turn 1 and does silly things, cool, just scoop up and play again. Or ask them to Commander Swap for something else. If they do not win early, just focus-fire them until they stop/change.
Not sure there's a problem here that can't be stopped at the group level.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
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Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I've heard MaRo confirmed they won't add that line (although they could) to any standard product because it was confusing standard players.
Which is sad, because 90% of the spoiled PW's could be generals without any issue.
As for the Karn debate, let's assume you got the Lattice, Ramp and everything you need.
Magical Christmas land.
You need to cast it and hope it doesn't get destroyed.
You need to cast Karn, hoping enemies won't float mana to burn him/kill him or counter him.
Also by the Turn 3, some enemies will have creatures on board.
Yes you locked the board, but you are without cards or defense.
I don't think i'd wanna see any of these walkers as the head of an EDH deck though. I can definitely see the (a bit) theme though, but not enough to offset the "you're a planeswalker, and have a pet...planeswalker as your trusty sidekick to whoop butt" disconnect that occurs. Having a pet dragon as your familiar makes more sense. But maybe ill run this by my group to test some of the more potentially problematic walkers to see how broken they really are.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Obviously it's a tad much, but the point was certain color combinations (mainly the worst color combination in EDH, Boros) could really benefit from having walkers as commanders. So one or two might be a bit busted, looking at you Tezzeret... but if it's busted, ban the card, not the entire Card Type!
And I know... the RC don't want to have two seperate ban lists for Commanders and the 99, but are we really so unintelligent that we can't work out which is which? I think we deserve a little more credit than that.
With War of the Spark, Wizards has gone to a lot of effort to make sure Walkers are accessible and thought-through, so isn't it time we give Planeswalker Commanders a chance?
@schweinefett is that what it's supposed to be? I always just sort of imagined we were playing as the commander (Like the old pc game Total Annihilation lol)
I hope your playtesting goes well, I can't imagine you'd even notice a difference in the long term
What's so special about nahiri? Almost every other color combination has better walkers available for commanders. If anything it would probably make boros even worse.
If you want walkers as commanders then cool, ask your playgroup about it, but this "help boros" excuse is flimsy as all hell.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
This is sort of exactly my point, Nahiri isn't brilliant, no-one is going to say wow that's OP it should be banned, which is why in her case at least, having a planeswalker commander would be totally fine, how could anyone complain?
The reason I personally think she'd be good for Boros, is just because she's completely different to what's out there. The 'problem' with Boros commanders at the moment is that they're all saying the same thing: Attack Attack Attack.
But Nahiri doesn't care about attacking, she opens up a door to a different kind of build. Her + for instance could go well with soem of the white reanimation, or the red artifact recursion, no other boros commander can do this. The - ability is versatile (but conditional) removal on a boros commander, again not OP, but again unheard of in Boros. And the ult... there's probably something really silly you could do with it, all I can think of is Blightsteel Colossus, but whatever you get, it's actually card advantage which again, is unheard of in Boros.
Edit: She'd also let you build a deck that isn't creature dependant (which far as I know isn't a thing in Boros?) Meaning you could run more board wipes more often, and claw back the value that way.
I'll grant that she'd be different than what we've currently got, but she wouldn't be better. Boros has 2 problems, one being that their commanders are frequently similar in strategy, but the other being that it just generally sucks. Nahiri does next to nothing to help the latter. She does help the former a bit, but there ARE existing boros commanders that don't focus around combat, like FS+SS and Depala. Could we use more? Yes, definitely. Should we drastically change the rules of the entire format in order to give boros a few new ones? Uh......no. The fault for boros' suckitude rests on the shoulders of wotc, who keep printing trash-tier boros commanders even in supplemental products. The solution is to keep whining about it until they pay attention.
Anyway as long as we're massively restructuring the format in order to make boros more fun, I'd rather play path of mettle than any RW planeswalkers. It's ramp, it has a fresh build-around, and it's super cool. Come on, RC! Why won't you listen to the will of the people and make legendary enchantments legal commanders?!?! /sarcasm
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'm sensing some undue hostility, who hurt you bro?
I never said she'd fix all of Boros's problems, just that she'd help to shake things up. By your own examples we currently have only two non-aggro choices, Fire Song and Sunspeaker, and Depala, Pilot Exemplar. Compare that with any other color combo short of Rakdos and we're outnumbered 10 to 1 (figure of speach - dont judge me)
Anyway, I know an argument's gone too far when I have to re-read my original post. All i'm saying is it's worth giving walkers a try, where's the harm in that.
If you want to play planeswalker commanders, that seems like a totally fine thing to talk about with your playgroup. And I don't have anything against discussing a global rules change, either, I'm personally kind of undecided on the issue - naturally most planeswalkers make cool commanders since they usually have 3+ abilities (at least until now), but I also don't know that there's good justification for it, and restrictions breed creativity.
But the boros problem is 100% separate from the planeswalker discussion. Both things worth discussing, to be sure. But separately. Everything you've posted reads like you just really want nahiri available because it's your pet planeswalker - which is fine, but it's not a good justification for legalizing them just because she happens to be boros.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
But other than that you're right, I just want it for Boros (but because she looks interesting, i don't do pets )
http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/38490_War-Of-The-Spark-First-Looks-For-Commander.html
I didn't realise that brawl allows PWs as generals actually. i don't know anyone who plays that, so i don't really know how that format plays.
I've no idea, to be honest. Being the actual general in the game seems cool... but then you get weird situations where you have a mono-red squee, the immortal deck... he's not smart enough to die, but he's somehow smart enough to cast an apex of power? or be smart enough to use a sensei's divining top?
the whole PW as generals idea i think i was for at some point in time, but having thought about it a bit more, I'm not really sure how much it'd actually contribute to the game. And besides, i'm spending a lot of my time testing painter for EDH and legacy, so i don't think testing PWs would actually be a good use of my time.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I wound up changing my vote to no after much discussion and thinking about it.
Seeing cards like Tezzeret or Venser that I generally enjoy banned definitely impacts my thinking just a little but it's very low down the list. Most of the guys you'd banned would be more like Tezzeret, who as much as I enjoy, I would not mind seeing banned -- I can't think of any walker more bannable than the existing two bannable ones (teferi and estrid) who are already legal, so it doesn't stress me out a lot.
The potential banning of support cards like Deepglow Skate or Doubling Season that have other fair uses gives me a lot more heartburn personally (even Contagion Engine).
The thing that I fear the most is that they would create more incentives to play small numbers of creatures and high number of effects that stall the game. This is already a style of game that is not particularly that fun in EDH and I think there's plenty of support for it.
On the flipside, the thing I like the most about walkers is that they potentially enable some color combinations with weak commanders to have stronger options or at the least more varied options.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Say you've got a card like Sorin Markov that you think is way too griefy, and you think ought to be banned. By allowing planeswalkers to be commanders, you don't change how the card is played. As a commander, Sorin Markov will continue to be as intolerable as he's always been. The only difference is that players are now exposed to Sorin more than they were before. By banning Sorin, all you're saying is, "This card has always been a problem, but it was never prevalent enough to justify action. Now with it being a legal commander, it will be prevalent enough, so action is warranted."
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Who knows, though - maybe this set will bring a revival of Brawl. I mean, there's 36 planeswalkers and a dozen or more legendary creatures, which means lots of variety.
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Agreed. And at first glance my initial reaction is "gee I'm glad I dont have to face some of these as commanders".
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-Most Planeswalkers are one-time iterations based on the story/setting; no reason to reprint them again and they won't be.
-Only a small handful of competitive staples (JTMS, LOTV, Karn, occasional Lorwyn 5) see reprints, and not even regularly.
-Planeswalkers have been Mythic rarity post-Lorwyn, making their supply much lower compared to other cards.
-The supply would not meet the demand, making a rule change for PWers ripe for market manipulation/buyouts.
-Even less commonly used Planeswalkers settle around $5-10 over time, unless they're just really really bad (but - may be amazing as an on-demand cast from the Command Zone).
-The speculator response to a rule change would lead to a great many PWers landing in the $20-50 range.
-Speculators are safe on flipping these/cornering the market, because PWers are very, very rarely reprinted, low supply, existing greater casual demand, pre-CMDR PW change if it happened.
-Because they are safe speculation, they can sit on these without the market budging much. They would not settle very far from where they land.
-Not only would speculators jump on this, but with a mass amount of people buying into PWers, the supply and market would strain.
-A whole section of the market would become quickly out of reach for casual people, PWer collectors and Commander players alike.
-One argument I've seen is that PWers are the face of the game and should be available (it's a shallow argument not worth considering tbh)
-This wave would put most PWers out of reach of kitchen table players and newer players getting into the game. Commander has become HUGE and WILL have that kind of impact.
-If you have any doubt about any of this, look at The Command Zone and SaffronOlive Effect, Protean Hulk when it was unbanned (before the M25 reprint), etc.
-This isn't fair to kitchen table players or the rest of the game.
All of this is a secondary effect of allowing PWers and it's guaranteed. This is before considering how many cards have to end up being banned over time that people are already playing. Superfriends is a popular archetype that uses a specific subset of cards that could easily have a case for being banned, and we'd probably at least see a few more bans post-change announcement as we see exactly what ripples this will cause. All of this is theorycraft. But the result? Potentially more bans in the format than we've seen in the last 8 years, just so people can play Planeswalkers, and the waves through the secondary market putting a good chunk out of them out of reach or at least a stretch away from the accessibility needed with such a change.
(Also known as Xenphire)
And now we have a Landfall proliferator. That one made me blink to see if I read it right.
I honestly cannot believe they doubled down on proliferate so hard. If they ever manage to make planeswalker commanders legal I seriously doubt I will keep playing. The whole "sweep the board, plus and proliferate all my walkers" decks are going to be bad enough as is if you're not playing CEDH.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
This is incredibly accurate. GU is far and away one of the most refined color pairs for Commander. Gives access to everything, universal answers, ramp, protection and payoffs. Most of the spoiled cards so far would push a GUX PW deck to absurd levels of consistency, and at lower power levels to boot. I just wouldn’t ever want to sit down across from one, and this includes existing PW commanders, with what’s been spoiled.
To me, this set effectively puts the nail in the coffin as far as I’m concerned. It isn’t ever going to happen unless there is some drastic philosophical change. You could easily end up with 15+ ‘walkers that would be ban worthy right out of the gate, which is insane. Either that, or you ban a bunch of enablers, which would result in a simarily large addition to the ban list.
However, one thing this set has shown, is that PW support can be appropriately costed to help make playing them in EDH that much more enticing. There are plenty of cards that make choosing a PW in the 99 that much easier because there is relevant support that greases the rest of the deck as well.
JTMS being in the $300+ range, along with Lily of the Veil, with no foreseeable reprint, would make for some annoying outcomes.
Tiny Leaders allows them as well, but the limitation of CMC3 or less makes things a lot less broken.
I'd be in favour of PW as Commanders though. Someone drops NewTezz turn 1 and does silly things, cool, just scoop up and play again. Or ask them to Commander Swap for something else. If they do not win early, just focus-fire them until they stop/change.
Not sure there's a problem here that can't be stopped at the group level.
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