Hour of Promise is the card which concerns me most in #MTGHOU.
Why? It's Primetime's ETB (no attack trigger or 6/6 trampling body) and harder to abuse (re-using or stealing sorceries is harder than re-using or stealing creatures). At many tables, it's going to be worse than Tempt with Discovery, especially since Tempt brings in the lands untapped.
Hour of Promise is the card which concerns me most in #MTGHOU.
Why? It's Primetime's ETB (no attack trigger or 6/6 trampling body) and harder to abuse (re-using or stealing sorceries is harder than re-using or stealing creatures). At many tables, it's going to be worse than Tempt with Discovery, especially since Tempt brings in the lands untapped.
Just want to second all of this. I see 0 issues with Hour of Promise, and happily welcome its effect since there are not many ways to just grab any land(s) you want and put them into play since PrimeTime's ban.
I am also curious about how this card stirs up more "concern" than Razaketh does. Now, I personally don't think that Raz will lead to "ban-worthy" issues, but it certainly seems more capable pf that than Hour of Promise does to me.
I suspect that sarcasm was the underlying message (that there aren't any cards which immediately worry them), but I would still like to know more behind the thinking.
I have played hour of promise a bit now in my Gitrog deck, which is the closest to competitive of decks I own (maybe 85% tuned, with some self-imposed restrictions but a really high power level). It's mostly been weaker than crop rotation for me. The mana investment is legitimately an issue.
I think if it put them into play untapped it would be an instaban but getting a turn to react to it, eh, I think it's probably okay. I have done some pretty filthy with it for sure but it feels about on par with other 5-6 mana power cards for the most part.
I do worry about how strong the "lands" angle of attack is in EDH though - I find many decks completely unprepared for Gitrog just putting all the lands out, and strip mine+wasteland is often not enough. With Gitrog I strip mine myself to draw cards more often than other people strip mine me.
I'd definitely keep an eye on this, but I think it'll probably just join the annals of stuff like Mana Reflection and Consecrated Sphinx and such.
Yeah, hour is good, legitimately good for getting Coffers Urborg especially, but it isn't a gamebreaking form of advantage in most deck.
Also, I agree that you're not playing a Gitrog deck right if you aren't strip mining yourself (or ghost quartering yourself) at least as often as you aim those lands at the enemy.
Well that's a one shot trick. Hard to abuse. It also depends on how people build it. The committee doesn't just ban broken cards, else Narset would be banned (if you build her right, she gets infinite turns). She isn't banned because most people are suiting her up instead of going infinite, so it doesn't usually get played in a broken way.
With that in mind, primetime was impossible to play fairly, because green likes to swing with big fat beaters. And since every color has at least one great land, players always got the best card available. There were no games where it wasn't broken.
Now what about hour of promise? 1 mana less (5 mana). Sorcery speed so there are timing restrictions. You only get two lands,whereas primetime gets 2, then 2 more every turn cycle. Green has no recursion for spells, especially on a scale that seeing hour and recursion in the same game is likely. Blue has the best spell recursion, but generally speaking, the themes of blue and green oppose each other. Compare to primetime. Black reanimated, green recurs, blue bounces, white can blink or protect. The only color that can't abuse primetime terribly well is red.
I think this thread proves that no card is instant banworthy, and the RC should only ban cards that have PROVEN to be problematic (and luckily they do).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Yea, the fact that this thread like.... entirely died after this card came out and nobody has talked about it (banlist wise at least) since then kind of speaks for itself. Its a decent card and it can be strong but that said, running enough Strip Mines to cover your needs is also very strong.
I think you could argue that Traverse the Outlands and Harvest Season in the right decks are just as powerful even though its just basic lands they fetch. Recently we also got Pir's Whim which is yet another variation of this effect. I don't see this effect really being an outlier in power and since its not on a creature its issue with abuse has essentially gone away.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I would argue that's not entirely true. Like, I knew Griselbrand was going to be problematic because he's basically Yawgmoth's Bargain that gains you life and he could be balanced by the 4BBBB mana cost...if he weren't a creature in the color with the most ways to cheat creatures into play. (And that's not even considering Kaalia of the Vast.)
Of course, there isn't a single "search for any land" card which can't be put in its place with some good old-fashioned lan—(trampled by a million n00bs claiming land destruction is "unfun")
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'd imagine most Worldfire style cards would get a near immediate ban as well.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I actually think it might be time to revisit whether primeval titan can come off the list. After all, there will be less incentive to ramp quite as hard as when emrakul was around. The ultra controversial 15 mana spell probably had a non zero impact on it, channel, and academy getting hammered. If you wanted to, you could steal hour with spelltwine just like bribery stole prime a lot in the emrakul days. I haven't heard about bribery in years, though, and haven't heard about hour being recast as a problem. I mean titan being a creature is 100% irrelevant when you talk about coffers/urborg because if you're playing black, you can tutor anything and black has sins of the past. Don't tell me one mana more than bribery is a deal breaker in commander. We also have a ton of new ramp cards now so I'm not sure titan would even be in as many lists even if everyone still had all their copies from years ago.
I actually think it might be time to revisit whether primeval titan can come off the list. After all, there will be less incentive to ramp quite as hard as when emrakul was around. The ultra controversial 15 mana spell probably had a non zero impact on it, channel, and academy getting hammered. If you wanted to, you could steal hour with spelltwine just like bribery stole prime a lot in the emrakul days. I haven't heard about bribery in years, though, and haven't heard about hour being recast as a problem. I mean titan being a creature is 100% irrelevant when you talk about coffers/urborg because if you're playing black, you can tutor anything and black has sins of the past. Don't tell me one mana more than bribery is a deal breaker in commander. We also have a ton of new ramp cards now so I'm not sure titan would even be in as many lists even if everyone still had all their copies from years ago.
Being a creature is 100% why Primeval Titan was broken but Hour of Promise is not. Other players have a lot harder time abusing it and its much harder to tutor and abuse for the player who is playing it. You could literally take Primeval Titan and shift those abilities to working on an enchantment so you trigger it once / turn and it would not be half as big a problem as Primeval Titan because it would be much harder to tutor / abuse even though it would be harder to remove.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
What? How is casting cards from peoples gravayard remotely the same as cherry picking the best creature among all the cards your opponent still hasn't drawn? Also, Emrakul was banned long before PrimeTime was banned.
The problem with Prime Time is that it always became a race of "Who powers it out first and then who abuses it most." A 'normal' Green deck would grab Cradle and Deserted Temple, and then just keep ramping up. Golgari? Urborg-Coffers, and then things go horribly wrong from there.
And once the Titan is out, EVERYONE scrambles to abuse it. Even before it Blue can bribery it, but once properly out blue will clone or steal it, black will kill/reanimate it, red will "borrow" it and white...is screwed. It turns the game into a full-on Prime Time scramble and that's not something that ever happens with Hour of Promise.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I actually think it might be time to revisit whether primeval titan can come off the list. After all, there will be less incentive to ramp quite as hard as when emrakul was around. The ultra controversial 15 mana spell probably had a non zero impact on it, channel, and academy getting hammered.
Primeval Titan's ban had absolutely nothing to do with Emrakul. Channel and Tolarian Academy also had nothing to do with either Titan nor Emrakul. Channel and Academy were both banned long before Emrakul was printed, and Emrakul was banned long before Titan was.
Primeval Titan's ban had absolutely nothing to do with Emrakul. Channel and Tolarian Academy also had nothing to do with either Titan nor Emrakul. Channel and Academy were both banned long before Emrakul was printed, and Emrakul was banned long before Titan was.
Exactly, its not that two lands are hitting to do other stuff. Its that everyone want 2 lands, and will make sure they get theirs.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Interesting. Would you please elaborate more on your thoughts about it and Raz?
* These views are the opinions of the author and do not reflect the views and opinions of the rules committee as a whole.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Just want to second all of this. I see 0 issues with Hour of Promise, and happily welcome its effect since there are not many ways to just grab any land(s) you want and put them into play since PrimeTime's ban.
I am also curious about how this card stirs up more "concern" than Razaketh does. Now, I personally don't think that Raz will lead to "ban-worthy" issues, but it certainly seems more capable pf that than Hour of Promise does to me.
I suspect that sarcasm was the underlying message (that there aren't any cards which immediately worry them), but I would still like to know more behind the thinking.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I think if it put them into play untapped it would be an instaban but getting a turn to react to it, eh, I think it's probably okay. I have done some pretty filthy with it for sure but it feels about on par with other 5-6 mana power cards for the most part.
I do worry about how strong the "lands" angle of attack is in EDH though - I find many decks completely unprepared for Gitrog just putting all the lands out, and strip mine+wasteland is often not enough. With Gitrog I strip mine myself to draw cards more often than other people strip mine me.
I'd definitely keep an eye on this, but I think it'll probably just join the annals of stuff like Mana Reflection and Consecrated Sphinx and such.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Also, I agree that you're not playing a Gitrog deck right if you aren't strip mining yourself (or ghost quartering yourself) at least as often as you aim those lands at the enemy.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
With that in mind, primetime was impossible to play fairly, because green likes to swing with big fat beaters. And since every color has at least one great land, players always got the best card available. There were no games where it wasn't broken.
Now what about hour of promise? 1 mana less (5 mana). Sorcery speed so there are timing restrictions. You only get two lands,whereas primetime gets 2, then 2 more every turn cycle. Green has no recursion for spells, especially on a scale that seeing hour and recursion in the same game is likely. Blue has the best spell recursion, but generally speaking, the themes of blue and green oppose each other. Compare to primetime. Black reanimated, green recurs, blue bounces, white can blink or protect. The only color that can't abuse primetime terribly well is red.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I think you could argue that Traverse the Outlands and Harvest Season in the right decks are just as powerful even though its just basic lands they fetch. Recently we also got Pir's Whim which is yet another variation of this effect. I don't see this effect really being an outlier in power and since its not on a creature its issue with abuse has essentially gone away.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Of course, there isn't a single "search for any land" card which can't be put in its place with some good old-fashioned lan—(trampled by a million n00bs claiming land destruction is "unfun")
On phasing:
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Being a creature is 100% why Primeval Titan was broken but Hour of Promise is not. Other players have a lot harder time abusing it and its much harder to tutor and abuse for the player who is playing it. You could literally take Primeval Titan and shift those abilities to working on an enchantment so you trigger it once / turn and it would not be half as big a problem as Primeval Titan because it would be much harder to tutor / abuse even though it would be harder to remove.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
What? How is casting cards from peoples gravayard remotely the same as cherry picking the best creature among all the cards your opponent still hasn't drawn? Also, Emrakul was banned long before PrimeTime was banned.
And once the Titan is out, EVERYONE scrambles to abuse it. Even before it Blue can bribery it, but once properly out blue will clone or steal it, black will kill/reanimate it, red will "borrow" it and white...is screwed. It turns the game into a full-on Prime Time scramble and that's not something that ever happens with Hour of Promise.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)