In Sheldon's most recent article located here, Sheldon talks about how he now has Selvala on his radar. The comparison with Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary is easily made, and thus we have a new suspect on our hands. But is Selvala truly worth getting banned?
Personally, I don't believe so - and I'm not saying this out of bias. I have a lot of experience playing with Selvala. Now, my deck that's actively based around her isn't exactly the best way to play her, being focussed fully on Hydras, but it gives one a great sense of how she plays. She can certainly pull up a sizeable amount of mana with ease, but let's look at some other numbers.
Barring T1 Ramp, Selvala will not come out until T3. Of course, being in Green, Selvala will easily hit that turn 2. However, at turn 3 she will then tap for effectively 1 mana. You could play a 3-mana creature but most of those don't tend to be big. Usually, in the early game, Selvala takes a few turns to truly build up. Generally, the most you can get out of her turn 4 is 4 mana, if turn 3 is spent casting something like Polukranos, World Eater. There are a few ways to circumvent this, of course, but I'm going for plays you can reasonably expect.
Normally, it's only from turn 5 and on where she starts to grow fast. But even then, this is easily halted by taking away the biggest threat. Unlike the afformetioned Rofellos, who only gets stronger as the game progresses, Selvala's power fluctuates throughout a game. The average EDH game has plenty of boardwipes and some spot removal for good measure too.
And once Selvala's been blown up, it usually takes one or two turns of rebuilding before she's back to her nefarious ways.
Generally speaking, I find her to be very compareable to Karametra's Acolyte. And I do have both in my OTHER Selvala deck (The Selesnya one). It being a more traditional Gx-Goodstuffy deck, it is immediately noteable that while Selvala is still a strong piece, Karametra's Acolyte is so, so much stronger - albeit limited to being Green-Only, petering off in 3CC and everything above. Karametra's Acolyte routinely taps for 10+ even if only small stuff hits, and feeds off much more as Selvala as well thanks to enchantments.
Now when comparing the two in the deck I dedicated to Selvala, yes, Selvala outpreforms the Acolyte, but this is fully due to how the deck is built. Hydras that keep increasing its size are generally not all that good in EDH, but in a Selvala deck, they work. Even there though, the Acolyte is usually faster to produce decent chunks of mana, with Selvala ringing in the end game once I finally have a big Hydra going.
So where does Selvala sit? She's certainly one of the stronger big mana cards, but she's not alone, and she unlike the other playable ones, feeds only off of creatures, whereas others mostly feed off devotion or lands. This, to me, makes Selvala more than vulnerable enough to be kept in check.
But it's certainly worth debate.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I will admit that I was a bit puzzled about Selvala suddenly being on the RC's radar. I will admit that my experience with Selvala is only playing against a typical ramp into fatties version, but nothing about that experience makes me think she would be banworthy. Definitely not in the same way that Leovold did. Sure she does have the ability to produce a bunch of mana, but it does require a little setup, and there are a lot of other similar abilities in the game. Like, I dont see how it would be justifiable to ban Selvala, a creature with only three toughness and no innate protection, but let Cabal Coffers, a land card that most decks (at least in my meta) dont contain an answer for and requires no other setup than playing lands, be legal. As someone who loves mono black decks and Coffers as a card, I cannot deny the power it gives to a deck. It is 99% of the time my first tutor target because its too good not to have on the field.
I generally think of Selvala, Heart of the Wild as being about on par with Priest of Titania, Elvish Archdruid, and Karametra's Acolyte as far as big mana green creatures go. They all have restrictions of some sort, whether it's elves, big creatures, or devotion, and they can all get insane in their mana production.
Selvala's only real advantage over the others - not counting the cantrip for the biggest creature - is that she's legendary, so it's easier to build a deck to meet her specifications and then expect to have her available during the game.
I don't think that Selvala needs a ban - I'm biased, of course, as a green player - but I do think we need to have a serious conversation about reinstating the 'banned as commander' list. I'm not sure Selvala would even fit on that, but the fact is that a one-size-fits-all banned list seems to be limited deck options and stifling creativity
Selvala's only real advantage over the others - not counting the cantrip for the biggest creature - is that she's legendary, so it's easier to build a deck to meet her specifications and then expect to have her available during the game.
Which also applied to Rofellos, and he was banned as a commander.
I'd be perfectly happy with bringing back BaaC and putting Selvala on that list.
I will admit that I was a bit puzzled about Selvala suddenly being on the RC's radar.
It's not sudden - it's been on our radar since the day it was spoiled, there've been multiple threads about it in various places, and it certainly does things that we tend to take a close look at.
That being said, lots of cards end up on our radar, so I wouldn't treat a mention as predictive.
I don't think Selvala is as comparable to Rofellos. Creatures are a much more easily removed resource than lands are.
Counterpoint: It's easier to get a large creature than it is to get a large number of forests.
Yes, but most large creatures tend to cap at around 8 power. How long until Rofellos matches that amount of forests? 5 turns, tops?
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I don't think Selvala is as comparable to Rofellos. Creatures are a much more easily removed resource than lands are.
Counterpoint: It's easier to get a large creature than it is to get a large number of forests.
Yes, but most large creatures tend to cap at around 8 power. How long until Rofellos matches that amount of forests? 5 turns, tops?
I can't recall a time I really needed Rofellos to tap for 8 (honestly, 5 is enough to combo off, though Selvala would need 1 more with her activation cost). Besides, there are plenty of creatures that let you spend your ridiculous amount of mana to make them even bigger, for even more mana later. I mean, your signature even has what I assume is a Hydra Selvala deck, so there's an example right there.
I don't think Selvala is as comparable to Rofellos. Creatures are a much more easily removed resource than lands are.
Counterpoint: It's easier to get a large creature than it is to get a large number of forests.
Yes, but most large creatures tend to cap at around 8 power. How long until Rofellos matches that amount of forests? 5 turns, tops?
I can't recall a time I really needed Rofellos to tap for 8 (honestly, 5 is enough to combo off, though Selvala would need 1 more with her activation cost). Besides, there are plenty of creatures that let you spend your ridiculous amount of mana to make them even bigger, for even more mana later. I mean, your signature even has what I assume is a Hydra Selvala deck, so there's an example right there.
True, but at the same time you can't really consider Selvala Hydras to be the BEST use of Selvala, if you want to try and break her. If you are looking for broken stuff with her, she has limits and those limits are dictated by creature size. At the same time, slotting her in an average G deck she'll provide a good amount of value, but Rofellos will still easily outpreform her from the get-go.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I don't think Selvala is as comparable to Rofellos. Creatures are a much more easily removed resource than lands are.
Counterpoint: It's easier to get a large creature than it is to get a large number of forests.
Yes, but most large creatures tend to cap at around 8 power. How long until Rofellos matches that amount of forests? 5 turns, tops?
I can't recall a time I really needed Rofellos to tap for 8 (honestly, 5 is enough to combo off, though Selvala would need 1 more with her activation cost). Besides, there are plenty of creatures that let you spend your ridiculous amount of mana to make them even bigger, for even more mana later. I mean, your signature even has what I assume is a Hydra Selvala deck, so there's an example right there.
True, but at the same time you can't really consider Selvala Hydras to be the BEST use of Selvala, if you want to try and break her. If you are looking for broken stuff with her, she has limits and those limits are dictated by creature size. At the same time, slotting her in an average G deck she'll provide a good amount of value, but Rofellos will still easily outpreform her from the get-go.
Except for the fact I've never* lost to a Forest. Selvala ramps based on threats and cantrips with said threats, that's a pretty potent package. I think she's a great card in the 99, but can be pretty busted at times in the CZ. You aren't "punished" by ramping via mana dorks or by playing Super-Star utility lands. Without a way to keep the CA flowing with Roofie, he fizzles quickly. Most Multi-player games are light on targeted removal, so you are more likely to recover faster by casting Selvala and another creature to draw a card before your opponent plops their own fatty.
*Animated lands, obviously, aren't just "forests"...
I will admit that I was a bit puzzled about Selvala suddenly being on the RC's radar.
It's not sudden - it's been on our radar since the day it was spoiled, there've been multiple threads about it in various places, and it certainly does things that we tend to take a close look at.
That being said, lots of cards end up on our radar, so I wouldn't treat a mention as predictive.
I think what I was more thinking but didnt come across in what I wrote was given the bannings over the past few years, and the explanations on the RC's thought process in how banning decisions are made, Selvala didnt seem like the type of card that would make it into a banned discussion. In other words, it didnt seem like the type of card that drastically warped games (Prophet of Kruphix) or created very unfun games (Leovold). Selvala seems to fit into the format as one of many powerful yet legal cards.
I wont treat it as predictive, as there are many cards that have been and still are discussed that have not been banned.
I think its fair to compare her to Rofellos, so long as its done honestly.
Rofellos will generally ramp more quickly.
Selvala ramps by throwing down threats (making her more proactive), and refills your hand.
The former is easier to abuse than the latter, and Selvala is probably a turn or two too slow to qualify for the "too much mana too fast" ban pillar.
She comes in more along the lines of Azusa. She ramps about as quickly, she loses points for having her ramp not be permanent but gains points by drawing you cards and having a higher ceiling. Azusa isn't banned, Selvala probably shouldn't be. That said, it is the sort of card, like T&N or the recently unbanned PHulk, that should be watched, because it has the potential to get there, however unlikely.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
As I said in the piece and Toby reiterated here, don't read anything extra into our discussion of it. The biggest takeaway is that we have our eyes open and heads up.
I feel like the easiest card to compare Selvala to is Gaea's Cradle. Sure, one relies on quantity and the other quality (size), but I feel in the wake of general creature removal (and their countermeasures) it's nearly irrelevant (and would be past some point of mana generated anyway).
In fact, if you asked me in a relative vacuum of assumption they only have access to creatures to produce mana, Cradle seems more dangerous, being a land and all. The colored mana feels irrelevant in the general cutthroat setup, because mono-G has proved itself capable of just crushing the game with green mana alone. The card draw advantage is also sort of moot in those situations (although in fairness for less cutthroat/competitive situations it can be a big help, though being a double-edged effect it can go both ways).
That leaves Selvala being eligible as a Commander giving her the edge over Cradle and I have not seen any matches involving her to be any expert on the matter, but as mentioned by others as a Commander she is notably slower than Rofellos and Azusa and the midrange-recovery option is a double-edged ability. Consdering Azusa could still be handled, I think Selvala can as well, especially when the explosivness can be seen in the Command Zone (as opposed to random Cradle).
As I said in the piece and Toby reiterated here, don't read anything extra into our discussion of it. The biggest takeaway is that we have our eyes open and heads up.
It is a bit interesting to see what sort of cards end up on a watch list, with the obvious note that the fact that it is a watch list rather than a hit list means that being on it in and of itself indicate that it is likely to be banned. Do cards that draw the RC's attention sort of stay there on a permanent basis as something that might have the potential to become a problem and thus something that you all want to keep an eye on in perpetuity, or do cards enter and leave the list after sufficient play testing or environmental changes lead the RC to no longer consider them in need of watching?
Also, glad to hear that you're doing better man. Hope you start feeling better soon!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
There's really no official watch list. There's no need for the extra layer of administration. Plus, we don't like the idea of a stepping stone ("if it's WListed now, it's getting BListed next time") because it creates expectations on which players (and, unfortunately, speculators) make decisions. We don't want to be in that business. Cards that get our attention get our attention. We discuss them, decide to act on them or not, then move on. We pay attention to what cards players are talking about, and our memories are long enough to say "Oh, that came up before, as well" or "We talked about that before, but factors A, B, and C have changed."
Thanks for the encouraging words. Feeling pretty good right now.
In Sheldon's most recent article located here, Sheldon talks about how he now has Selvala on his radar. The comparison with Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary is easily made, and thus we have a new suspect on our hands. But is Selvala truly worth getting banned?
Personally, I don't believe so - and I'm not saying this out of bias. I have a lot of experience playing with Selvala. Now, my deck that's actively based around her isn't exactly the best way to play her, being focussed fully on Hydras, but it gives one a great sense of how she plays. She can certainly pull up a sizeable amount of mana with ease, but let's look at some other numbers.
Barring T1 Ramp, Selvala will not come out until T3. Of course, being in Green, Selvala will easily hit that turn 2. However, at turn 3 she will then tap for effectively 1 mana. You could play a 3-mana creature but most of those don't tend to be big. Usually, in the early game, Selvala takes a few turns to truly build up. Generally, the most you can get out of her turn 4 is 4 mana, if turn 3 is spent casting something like Polukranos, World Eater. There are a few ways to circumvent this, of course, but I'm going for plays you can reasonably expect.
Normally, it's only from turn 5 and on where she starts to grow fast. But even then, this is easily halted by taking away the biggest threat. Unlike the afformetioned Rofellos, who only gets stronger as the game progresses, Selvala's power fluctuates throughout a game. The average EDH game has plenty of boardwipes and some spot removal for good measure too.
And once Selvala's been blown up, it usually takes one or two turns of rebuilding before she's back to her nefarious ways.
Generally speaking, I find her to be very compareable to Karametra's Acolyte. And I do have both in my OTHER Selvala deck (The Selesnya one). It being a more traditional Gx-Goodstuffy deck, it is immediately noteable that while Selvala is still a strong piece, Karametra's Acolyte is so, so much stronger - albeit limited to being Green-Only, petering off in 3CC and everything above. Karametra's Acolyte routinely taps for 10+ even if only small stuff hits, and feeds off much more as Selvala as well thanks to enchantments.
Now when comparing the two in the deck I dedicated to Selvala, yes, Selvala outpreforms the Acolyte, but this is fully due to how the deck is built. Hydras that keep increasing its size are generally not all that good in EDH, but in a Selvala deck, they work. Even there though, the Acolyte is usually faster to produce decent chunks of mana, with Selvala ringing in the end game once I finally have a big Hydra going.
So where does Selvala sit? She's certainly one of the stronger big mana cards, but she's not alone, and she unlike the other playable ones, feeds only off of creatures, whereas others mostly feed off devotion or lands. This, to me, makes Selvala more than vulnerable enough to be kept in check.
But it's certainly worth debate.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The Mimeoplasm || Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher || Vial Smasher/Tymna Group Slug
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief || Talrand, Sky Summoner
Yidris - Unblockable Saboteurs || Kiki-Jiki, ETB breaker
Kess, Dissident Mage
Selvala's only real advantage over the others - not counting the cantrip for the biggest creature - is that she's legendary, so it's easier to build a deck to meet her specifications and then expect to have her available during the game.
I don't think that Selvala needs a ban - I'm biased, of course, as a green player - but I do think we need to have a serious conversation about reinstating the 'banned as commander' list. I'm not sure Selvala would even fit on that, but the fact is that a one-size-fits-all banned list seems to be limited deck options and stifling creativity
I'd be perfectly happy with bringing back BaaC and putting Selvala on that list.
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It's not sudden - it's been on our radar since the day it was spoiled, there've been multiple threads about it in various places, and it certainly does things that we tend to take a close look at.
That being said, lots of cards end up on our radar, so I wouldn't treat a mention as predictive.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Yes, but most large creatures tend to cap at around 8 power. How long until Rofellos matches that amount of forests? 5 turns, tops?
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
True, but at the same time you can't really consider Selvala Hydras to be the BEST use of Selvala, if you want to try and break her. If you are looking for broken stuff with her, she has limits and those limits are dictated by creature size. At the same time, slotting her in an average G deck she'll provide a good amount of value, but Rofellos will still easily outpreform her from the get-go.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Except for the fact I've never* lost to a Forest. Selvala ramps based on threats and cantrips with said threats, that's a pretty potent package. I think she's a great card in the 99, but can be pretty busted at times in the CZ. You aren't "punished" by ramping via mana dorks or by playing Super-Star utility lands. Without a way to keep the CA flowing with Roofie, he fizzles quickly. Most Multi-player games are light on targeted removal, so you are more likely to recover faster by casting Selvala and another creature to draw a card before your opponent plops their own fatty.
*Animated lands, obviously, aren't just "forests"...
I think what I was more thinking but didnt come across in what I wrote was given the bannings over the past few years, and the explanations on the RC's thought process in how banning decisions are made, Selvala didnt seem like the type of card that would make it into a banned discussion. In other words, it didnt seem like the type of card that drastically warped games (Prophet of Kruphix) or created very unfun games (Leovold). Selvala seems to fit into the format as one of many powerful yet legal cards.
I wont treat it as predictive, as there are many cards that have been and still are discussed that have not been banned.
The Mimeoplasm || Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher || Vial Smasher/Tymna Group Slug
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief || Talrand, Sky Summoner
Yidris - Unblockable Saboteurs || Kiki-Jiki, ETB breaker
Kess, Dissident Mage
Rofellos will generally ramp more quickly.
Selvala ramps by throwing down threats (making her more proactive), and refills your hand.
The former is easier to abuse than the latter, and Selvala is probably a turn or two too slow to qualify for the "too much mana too fast" ban pillar.
She comes in more along the lines of Azusa. She ramps about as quickly, she loses points for having her ramp not be permanent but gains points by drawing you cards and having a higher ceiling. Azusa isn't banned, Selvala probably shouldn't be. That said, it is the sort of card, like T&N or the recently unbanned PHulk, that should be watched, because it has the potential to get there, however unlikely.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
In fact, if you asked me in a relative vacuum of assumption they only have access to creatures to produce mana, Cradle seems more dangerous, being a land and all. The colored mana feels irrelevant in the general cutthroat setup, because mono-G has proved itself capable of just crushing the game with green mana alone. The card draw advantage is also sort of moot in those situations (although in fairness for less cutthroat/competitive situations it can be a big help, though being a double-edged effect it can go both ways).
That leaves Selvala being eligible as a Commander giving her the edge over Cradle and I have not seen any matches involving her to be any expert on the matter, but as mentioned by others as a Commander she is notably slower than Rofellos and Azusa and the midrange-recovery option is a double-edged ability. Consdering Azusa could still be handled, I think Selvala can as well, especially when the explosivness can be seen in the Command Zone (as opposed to random Cradle).
It is a bit interesting to see what sort of cards end up on a watch list, with the obvious note that the fact that it is a watch list rather than a hit list means that being on it in and of itself indicate that it is likely to be banned. Do cards that draw the RC's attention sort of stay there on a permanent basis as something that might have the potential to become a problem and thus something that you all want to keep an eye on in perpetuity, or do cards enter and leave the list after sufficient play testing or environmental changes lead the RC to no longer consider them in need of watching?
Also, glad to hear that you're doing better man. Hope you start feeling better soon!
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Thanks for the encouraging words. Feeling pretty good right now.
Selvala is WAY more explosive than he could ever dream of being.
Which leads to some games in which everything goes right and some in which it does not come together.