At least until the 25th...but 'this is the best the format's ever been'[/sarcasm], so...yeah. As you said, VERY predictable outcome. Curious to know how much Sylvan abuse there is in those decks too, or if Prime Time is all that's needed for wreckage.
A lot of Sylvan's power comes from the fact that in Multiplayer, your taking out 3+ problem permanents then getting 3+ lands on one play, making it a 7 for 1 or better if you just cast it once with no other shenanigans, while in 1v1 its a 3 for 1 (body, forest, and removal). Still very strong but not as immediately ridiculous. With blink and reanimate, it gets more like it is in multiplayer, but add those in multiplayer and its completely broken. These results are pretty predictable though. Certainly not worth ruining multiplayer over.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
A lot of Sylvan's power comes from the fact that in Multiplayer, your taking out 3+ problem permanents then getting 3+ lands on one play, making it a 7 for 1 or better if you just cast it once with no other shenanigans, while in 1v1 its a 3 for 1 (body, forest, and removal). Still very strong but not as immediately ridiculous. With blink and reanimate, it gets more like it is in multiplayer, but add those in multiplayer and its completely broken. These results are pretty predictable though. Certainly not worth ruining multiplayer over.
Agreed on all counts, it was just a random thought of mine. Back when Prime was standard or modern legal, I heard the popular thing to do with him was run Valakut and go nuts. But yeah, Prime is so much more busted than Sylvan in 1v1 it ain't even funny...poor green can't get a break on those ETB fatties...lol
So it should be interesting to see what they actually change with the banned list for 1v1 MTGO. It's clear that there are a few overpowered archetypes; Mono-U control (with either Baral or Flip-Jace at the helm), green ramp/LD (With Selvala, Nissa, Titania, or perhaps Gitrog at the helm), Tasigur, Breya, and Vial Smasher. With 9 Commanders basically making up 90% of the 5-0 decks, I'm wondering if it makes sense to ban commanders or ban cards. Banning Strip Mine, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Primeval Titan, Treasure Cruise, and Dig Through Time would help put a dent in this and may be a good starting point for a "bans two weeks into a new format" course correction, but does that actually solve the problems? On the flip-side of that, does banning Baral and Jace actually stop people from just moving to Vendilion Clique and playing the same deck/strategy? If you hit the big four green commanders, will people not just move to Azusa, Omnath, Seton, or Rishkar? How much does WotC care that green ramp is being paired with green LD and that land destruction is a popular and winning archetype? Or that 30 Counterspell Draw-Go with Polymorph into Emrakul finish is a winning archetype?
WotC has their hands full here; they promised a format that was both "balanced and fun". It will be interesting to see how far they go to break up the blue and green dominance in the metagame and whether the weakening of either archetype leaves you with anything that is either balanced or fun...
So it should be interesting to see what they actually change with the banned list for 1v1 MTGO. It's clear that there are a few overpowered archetypes; Mono-U control (with either Baral or Flip-Jace at the helm), green ramp/LD (With Selvala, Nissa, Titania, or perhaps Gitrog at the helm), Tasigur, Breya, and Vial Smasher. With 9 Commanders basically making up 90% of the 5-0 decks, I'm wondering if it makes sense to ban commanders or ban cards. Banning Strip Mine, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Primeval Titan, Treasure Cruise, and Dig Through Time would help put a dent in this and may be a good starting point for a "bans two weeks into a new format" course correction, but does that actually solve the problems? On the flip-side of that, does banning Baral and Jace actually stop people from just moving to Vendilion Clique and playing the same deck/strategy? If you hit the big four green commanders, will people not just move to Azusa, Omnath, Seton, or Rishkar? How much does WotC care that green ramp is being paired with green LD and that land destruction is a popular and winning archetype? Or that 30 Counterspell Draw-Go with Polymorph into Emrakul finish is a winning archetype?
WotC has their hands full here; they promised a format that was both "balanced and fun". It will be interesting to see how far they go to break up the blue and green dominance in the metagame and whether the weakening of either archetype leaves you with anything that is either balanced or fun...
Their best bet is to adopt the Leviathan banlist straight up with Vial Smasher Prime Time and Leovold added. Keep Sylvan Prime on a watchlist. That's where I'd start anyway.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Their best bet is to adopt the Leviathan banlist straight up with Vial Smasher Prime Time and Leovold added. Keep Sylvan Prime on a watchlist. That's where I'd start anyway.
As such, it would mean the banning of the following cards which are banned in Leviathan, but not on MTGO 1v1: Ancient Tomb - If they are serious about getting rid of fast mana, then it would be a good idea to ban this Cataclysm - Its not a problem now, but I can see the metagame shifting enough where his would become problematic Chrome Mox - I'm surprised this was legal in the first place Dig Through Time - This was a mistake that needs to be fixed Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - This is another mistake that needs to be fixed Grim Monolith - I'm surprised this didn't get the axe when they decided to ban Ring, Vault, and Crypt Grindstone - This is basically a swap with Painter's Servant, but I could see Servant staying on the banned list High Tide - I can see where this might be problematic, but it isn't an issue right now Imperial Seal - The online game is full of tutors, so hitting the good 1 CMC tutors might help Intuition - Lame, but I get it Loyal Retainers - I've always felt that this card was kinda busted so I'm not sure why it isn't already banned Mox Diamond - Same as Chrome Mox Mystical Tutor - Same as Imperial Seal Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - I get that this card invalidates aggro as a strategy, but I don't see aggro being a thing without more changes Strip Mine - I think that after Emrakul, this is public enemy #2 on MTGO Treasure Cruise - Same as Dig Vampiric Tutor - Same as Imperial Seal Tasigur, the Golden Fang - I think the numbers speak for themselves
It would also mean the unbanning of the following cards that are banned on MTGO, but not in Leviathan: Arcum Dagsson - I would leave this banned; you would just be enabling prison by unbanning it Bazaar of Baghdad - This is a head scratcher; they need to realize that this isn't Vintage Biorhythm - Makes sense in Multiplayer, but not in 1v1. I have a suspicion that this was a relic of the fact that this was going to be a dual-use (1v1 and Multiplayer) Braids, Cabal Minion - Same as Arcum Doomsday - I'm actually surprised this isn't banned in Leviathan, but I think it is safe to leave off the banned list Griselbrand - I'm really surprised this isn't banned in Leviathan, but I think this should stay banned on MTGO Limited Resources - Yeah, please don't. Even though this is probably a relic of the multiplayer list, GW Plow Under plus this will totally be a thing and I think that they need to get rid of land-lock combos, not add more Moat - another head scratcher Painter's Servant - I would be fine with swapping this with Grindstone, even with Iona on the prowl Survival of the Fittest - I think that hey would regret unbanning this Trade Secrets - Again, another concession to the original MP banned list that is perfectly safe to unban in 1v1 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard - I think that this would be borderline as to whether or not to unban this. I would leave it on the list to be honest.
So yeah, the Leviathan list is not perfect either. It does fix a few problems with the current meta with the bans, but there are cards that would be unbanned that are a problem; Arcum, Griselbrand, Limited Resources, and perhaps Braids would be the big ones.
Their best bet is to adopt the Leviathan banlist straight up with Vial Smasher Prime Time and Leovold added. Keep Sylvan Prime on a watchlist. That's where I'd start anyway.
As such, it would mean the banning of the following cards which are banned in Leviathan, but not on MTGO 1v1: Ancient Tomb - If they are serious about getting rid of fast mana, then it would be a good idea to ban this Cataclysm - Its not a problem now, but I can see the metagame shifting enough where his would become problematic Chrome Mox - I'm surprised this was legal in the first place Dig Through Time - This was a mistake that needs to be fixed Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - This is another mistake that needs to be fixed Grim Monolith - I'm surprised this didn't get the axe when they decided to ban Ring, Vault, and Crypt Grindstone - This is basically a swap with Painter's Servant, but I could see Servant staying on the banned list High Tide - I can see where this might be problematic, but it isn't an issue right now Imperial Seal - The online game is full of tutors, so hitting the good 1 CMC tutors might help Intuition - Lame, but I get it Loyal Retainers - I've always felt that this card was kinda busted so I'm not sure why it isn't already banned Mox Diamond - Same as Chrome Mox Mystical Tutor - Same as Imperial Seal Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - I get that this card invalidates aggro as a strategy, but I don't see aggro being a thing without more changes Strip Mine - I think that after Emrakul, this is public enemy #2 on MTGO Treasure Cruise - Same as Dig Vampiric Tutor - Same as Imperial Seal Tasigur, the Golden Fang - I think the numbers speak for themselves
It would also mean the unbanning of the following cards that are banned on MTGO, but not in Leviathan: Arcum Dagsson - I would leave this banned; you would just be enabling prison by unbanning it Bazaar of Baghdad - This is a head scratcher; they need to realize that this isn't Vintage Biorhythm - Makes sense in Multiplayer, but not in 1v1. I have a suspicion that this was a relic of the fact that this was going to be a dual-use (1v1 and Multiplayer) Braids, Cabal Minion - Same as Arcum Doomsday - I'm actually surprised this isn't banned in Leviathan, but I think it is safe to leave off the banned list Griselbrand - I'm really surprised this isn't banned in Leviathan, but I think this should stay banned on MTGO Limited Resources - Yeah, please don't. Even though this is probably a relic of the multiplayer list, GW Plow Under plus this will totally be a thing and I think that they need to get rid of land-lock combos, not add more Moat - another head scratcher Painter's Servant - I would be fine with swapping this with Grindstone, even with Iona on the prowl Survival of the Fittest - I think that hey would regret unbanning this Trade Secrets - Again, another concession to the original MP banned list that is perfectly safe to unban in 1v1 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard - I think that this would be borderline as to whether or not to unban this. I would leave it on the list to be honest.
So yeah, the Leviathan list is not perfect either. It does fix a few problems with the current meta with the bans, but there are cards that would be unbanned that are a problem; Arcum, Griselbrand, Limited Resources, and perhaps Braids would be the big ones.
Agreed on Grislebrand, Limited and probably Arcum. Braids isn't nearly as brutal without fast mana. When she's not coming online until turn 4, she's much easier to deal with. I think stax has a valid place in the format. The problem with the current mana denial decks is more that the denial is one sided or worse (the green player ramps while destroying lands), and a broader symmetric stax strategy would play differently. Even Arcum *might* be ok, as again he's coming out later without fast mana and combo into a lock is a very different kind of mono blue than wall of counters.dek, but I don't think it's worth the risk.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I agree with Stax part. While it's clearly not part of modern Magic anymore, it's still a darling among those nostalgic people. Efficient tutors and fast mana are the big root problems, whether 1v1 or multiplayer. Take that out and Stax won't be as big of an issue.
I think the issue with Stax is more so the fact that it tends to produce gamestates that are not very fun for the players involved. I mean, I'm sure most people here have experienced a Contamination lock. It's gets tedious and frustrating fairly quickly.
Banning Tutors could help, though it doesn't seem that feasible. There are so many to choose from, you would have to ban an awful lot of cards for it to really change very much. Easier to ban the problematic targets than to try to go down that route.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Well, that's a small, and likely insufficient step.
It hurts Baral, Chief of Counters a but by removing a couple of its best ways to refill it's hand, and Tasigur for the same reason, but I doubt it will make countering everything much less attractive or effective, while I know that Tasigur will remain a broken commander in the best colors. Banning strip mine also takes a piece away from Tasigur, and hits the ability of mono green to play mana denial off of Prime Time, but again it won't be enough. The path will still be open against many decks by using wasteland, Prime Time is still an obvious problem, and not being able to take out basics will boost mono blue decks like Baral. Losing dig and cruise hurts vial smasher a bit too as they were big damage sources.
I see zurgo red decks being slightly better positioned since they now can't get locked out of land by green and will have an easier time out casting blue (decks like burn that spread their threats out make it so counter decks have to counter most spells rather than key cards, so they have an easier time breaking through the counter wall, and blue losing dig and cruise makes it more likely that blue runs out of Counters and red starts resolving spells compared to before).
Overall I expect the results to be broadly similar to the May 10th version. If the introduce more bans next month, it might break the stranglehold that Tasigur, Baral, and Vial Smasher have on the format. At that point, the other problem cards that are unbanned will make themselves known. Heck, they only touched on Vial Smasher this time as collateral damage!
I don't think Tasigur stops being a problem in 1v1 until Tasigur is banned. I don't think heavy ld stops being a problem strategy until Prime Time is banned. Then we will see Vial Smasher take over Tasigur's shell and Leovold rise. If those are taken care of, Oloro stands ready to invalidate traditional aggro, especially if zurgo red decks get popular. There are broken strategies that aren't being played solely because they are kept in check by even more broken strategies.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Well, that's a small, and likely insufficient step.
I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment.
If they wanted to shake up Baral, they should have also hit Emrakul, the Aeons Torn with a ban. As long as Polymorph effects are legal, Emrakul will remain a problem. It just ends up being the most efficient finisher in a deck that just wants to play nothing but answers otherwise.
If they wanted to shake up some of the other decks, I think the only way to do it would be to ban their commanders; there is no one or two cards that make Tasigur, Breya, or Vial too good as generals. You either accept that these decks are going to be the best in the format or you have to cut off the head.
There are broken strategies that aren't being played solely because they are kept in check by even more broken strategies.
And this will be the eventual problem of trying to achieve "balance". How diverse of a metagame does competitive 1v1 commander need to be? If you banned Tasigur, is Leovold just going to step up in its place? How many draw spells would need to be banned to move Mono-U Draw-Go off the top perch? Is just banning Strip Mine good enough to not de-incentivize abusing Life From the Loam or Crucible of Worlds with Wasteland, Dust Bowl, Tectonic Edge, or Encroaching Wastes? If you get people off of mono-green ramp/LD, do people start migrating to Winter Orb, Stasis, etc. locks? At what point are "the best things you can do" too good for the format that can't be balanced due to the presence of Force of Will (which is the primary balancing factor of formats like Vintage and Legacy)?
To me, this format is like an onion. Once you start peeling layers, there are nothing but more layers underneath... and you are crying the whole time you are peeling. I expect lots and lots of bans over the course of the format if WotC continues on this quest for a "balanced and fun" competitive EDH format.
I just don't think they want to immediately introduce a nuke to the format. Just slice away small pieces, look at the effects, and work from there. Seems to be the safest way to go about things.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I just don't think they want to immediately introduce a nuke to the format. Just slice away small pieces, look at the effects, and work from there. Seems to be the safest way to go about things.
Its the safest strategy to go about things, given the current situation. Their creation of this format was a terrible way to go about things though. We already have two 1v1 banlists, one of which was tailored to 30 life, which while far from perfect already had a lot of testing data that drove them to their current state. WotC made this banlist up, and its pretty obvious that they didn't understand the format and didn't bother to do much research into the metagames and discussions around leviathan and french rules. If they had, they would have released a list much closer to one of those, and then used their greater access to new data to refine it. If they hadn't made the initial effort so half assed (and it certainly was given the "we're making it a joint banlist because we're too lazy and cheap to code a separate one for multiplayer" debacle), then the format would have started in a much better place and evolved from there.
Well, that's a small, and likely insufficient step.
I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment.
If they wanted to shake up Baral, they should have also hit Emrakul, the Aeons Torn with a ban. As long as Polymorph effects are legal, Emrakul will remain a problem. It just ends up being the most efficient finisher in a deck that just wants to play nothing but answers otherwise.
If they wanted to shake up some of the other decks, I think the only way to do it would be to ban their commanders; there is no one or two cards that make Tasigur, Breya, or Vial too good as generals. You either accept that these decks are going to be the best in the format or you have to cut off the head.
There are broken strategies that aren't being played solely because they are kept in check by even more broken strategies.
And this will be the eventual problem of trying to achieve "balance". How diverse of a metagame does competitive 1v1 commander need to be? If you banned Tasigur, is Leovold just going to step up in its place? How many draw spells would need to be banned to move Mono-U Draw-Go off the top perch? Is just banning Strip Mine good enough to not de-incentivize abusing Life From the Loam or Crucible of Worlds with Wasteland, Dust Bowl, Tectonic Edge, or Encroaching Wastes? If you get people off of mono-green ramp/LD, do people start migrating to Winter Orb, Stasis, etc. locks? At what point are "the best things you can do" too good for the format that can't be balanced due to the presence of Force of Will (which is the primary balancing factor of formats like Vintage and Legacy)?
To me, this format is like an onion. Once you start peeling layers, there are nothing but more layers underneath... and you are crying the whole time you are peeling. I expect lots and lots of bans over the course of the format if WotC continues on this quest for a "balanced and fun" competitive EDH format.
I don't think its completely a fools errand to pursue balance, but the problem faced by WotC is that many of the biggest problems in the format are new legends. Tasigur, Vial Smasher, Leovold, Breya, Gitrog, these are all pretty new and they were all basically designed to be commanders (the supplemental products were overtly, the Khans/FRF legends were in order to boost the options for wedges). Its a bad look to have cards designed for the format and pushed for the format get banned so quickly because they break it. It shows that they still don't know how to balance for the format, and damages player confidence in the product.
That said, they need to bite the bullet and ban the bull*****. They need to understand that in Commander, being legendary is an enormous upside mechanic that they need to take into account when judging if a card is strong enough to warrant a ban. They need to read every legend as potentially having built in recursion and as always being available. In this format, legends are not balanced by some of the balancing effects inherently built into the game, namely the randomness of the draw and the ability to only use cards once without another card's help.
Tasigur, Vial, and Leovold need to eat a ban, full stop. Baral probably doesn't, as banning Emrakul in addition to Dig and Cruise might weaken the deck enough to make it a reasonable but fair choice. I'm ok with mono blue counters being a thing, so long as its not THE thing. Its healthy for a format to have a hard permission option to police combo and other decks that rely on big plays and key cards.
Stax is fine too. One sided LD abuse that is combined with ramp like the mono green decks, that is unhealthy and unfun. Strong resource denial is generally better for the format when its symmetrical and requires the builder to break the symmetry, or slightly weaker and used to maintain an advantage, sort of as a tempo move rather than a lock. Prime Time makes mono green resource denial far too easy. There is simply no opportunity cost, you cast a fairly efficient beater and automatically destroy two lands, or destroy one land while getting ramped one yourself depending on which helps you more, then you repeat every time you attack with it. It needs to go. If that doesn't do enough, get rid of Sylvan. At least push the strategy to relying on methods that don't give them a fatty to kill you with, like loam and crucible abuse. At least without Strip Mine that becomes weak against mono color strategies, while Prime Time still ramps you two lands immediately and then beats face and ramps at its WORST, and Sylvan will ramp you and nuke a land even against mono color, and then is a fatty afterwards. They are too reliable even when the non basic land hate strategy isn't viable.
Ban Oloro as well. And Derevi. Oloro invalidates zurgo style aggro strategies. If mono blue is weakened enough with the current bannings and eventually Emrakul, low to the ground aggro decks will be able to prey on it, cutting down its prevalence in the format and helping achieve some balance. Vial Smasher is very strong at leading blue based permission decks, because she was designed for multiplayer and unbalanced in a 30 life format where her ability always hits the player you are trying to kill, and lets your permission double as burn to the face, so she needs the axe to prevent her from taking over for mono blue. Oloro is next in line, as he can head up a permission deck that can outlast low to the ground aggro until he draws a sweeper and thus have no real weaknesses. Until those two are gone, weakening mono blue will just lead to those two taking over the role and being similarly over-represented.
Derevi, meanwhile, makes stax too strong. Her ability to ignore commander tax makes it too easy to break the symmetry of mana denial, as does her ability to untap things. She comes down too fast and is far too difficult to deal with. She's probably the last hurdle before you get to a somewhat balanced format, as she isn't as broken as the other things and thus kept in check by them. Without them, I see the format turning into Derevi, decks designed to beat Derevi, and all in combo, as Derevi sneaks past permission which makes it weaker in the format and thus less played opening up space for glass cannon combo.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Pursuing "balance" is one thing, but they said that they are trying to pursue a format that is "balanced and fun". They banned Derevi, Arcum, and Zur from the get-go presumably because the decks that they encourage are not "fun". I'm not saying that WotC is on a fool's errand; I am merely saying that finding the tipping point of what constitutes "balance" while trying to make sure that the format is "fun" is going to be a continuous challenge that is going to require a continuous stream of bans. People will continue to find the "next best thing" you can do in the format with every set of new bans, and some of things will be considered "unfun" and or "unbalanced". I am interested in seeing where the line gets drawn.
Pursuing "balance" is one thing, but they said that they are trying to pursue a format that is "balanced and fun". They banned Derevi, Arcum, and Zur from the get-go presumably because the decks that they encourage are not "fun". I'm not saying that WotC is on a fool's errand; I am merely saying that finding the tipping point of what constitutes "balance" while trying to make sure that the format is "fun" is going to be a continuous challenge that is going to require a continuous stream of bans. People will continue to find the "next best thing" you can do in the format with every set of new bans, and some of things will be considered "unfun" and or "unbalanced". I am interested in seeing where the line gets drawn.
I agree with that. French Rules had long been dominated by a handful of lists. Part of the issue with balancing for competitive play is that you make the format competitive. Once you start focusing a format on tournament play, you begin to move away from casual. One of the RCs innovations that has made this format so popular is that they don't care at all about tournament play and maintain the format with a heavy focus on casual play. This fosters an atmosphere of creativity and relaxed deck design for many playgroups, and yes even online. It's kitchen table ethos. It's getting to play with almost any card and with cool legends, and being forced to pick around 60 different cards rather than a few playsets. This doesn't preclude cutthroat decks, obviously, but it doesn't push towards them either. A tournament focused format, on the other hand, puts the most competitive strategies front and center and centers all discussion on those strategies. Balanced and diverse is one thing, but fun is subjective and often counter to balance. The RC has no problem with banning a card for problematic casual omnipresence or otherwise screwing up casual games too easily, even if it's fine or even beneficial to a competitive environment. In a tournament focused format, if there is a card that is important to balance the format for competitive play but that has a tendency to ruin casual games and generally makes the format unfun do you ban it? Like what if Prophet ends up helping a fair deck police the format but is, as usual, annoying and unfun in casual? You aren't going to screw up the balance to pursue a subjective idea of fun, even if most people are in agreement that the card makes the format less fun. Mono blue counter wall, or counter wall decks generally, are considered unfun by a majority of players. Sure, it's problematic currently because the recently banned cards made it too easy to refill hands and polymorph into Emrakul is too easy of a wincon (as is high tide Emrakul), but once those are taken away permission decks can help police the format against all in combo. Would WotC weaken those decks to the point of being tier 3 just to make the format more fun at a casual level (by making permission easier to overcome) even if it means making uninteractive linear strategies top tier? Hopefully not for balance reasons, but that weakens the casual appeal of the format.
WotC will need to treat the format as it does modern or standard. That's why it's great that come July 5th, multiplayer will return to the real EDH banlist.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
For the bans, I was not surprised at all that they banned Vial, but the other 4 are totally bizarre to me. I mean, I get that blue is really strong in 1v1 Commander and making people play Serum Visions, Portent, or Opt as 1 CMC card filtering deliberately makes blue deck worse in the early game, but this seems a little unreal that these were the cards they chose to hit (especially given how unpopular the restriction of Brainstorm and Ponder was in Vintage). And I get that Treachery is an amazing tempo swing, but I hardly expected it to get the axe in any format.
I've enjoyed the return of the multiplayer banlist immensely. I also like the ability to occasionally play the old banlist 1v1, optionality is nice.
It's been a couple months since ive played a lot of 1v1 though (been addicted to CKii) so I was interested in seeing how the July bans have played out? Casual pick ups playing things like Rebels vs Angel Tribal isn't exactly a good way to get a read on it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The explanation below given when Edgar Markov was banned in dual commander, to a large degree describes what MTGO 1v1 has turned into, with “Edgar VS anti-Edgar” strategies, that is edgar VS control decks filled with red/black sweepers. I think it's pretty obvious that Edgar should be banned in MTGO 1v1 too.
Edgar Markov
Before “Eminence” got released in Commander 2017, two commanders got abilities that somehow worked from the command zone: Oloro, Ageless Ascetic and, to a lesser extend, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. Both of them are banned in Duel Commander. Having abilities on cards that actually work from the command zone negates the concept of casting commanders, and are very easily overpowered when played in duel.
Edgar Markov clearly offers the ability to build a very solid, overly intense tribal deck revolving around vampires. The flavor is cool, but the taste is not. For 4 weeks already the card dominated most tournaments it got in, polarizing the next ones to “Edgar VS anti-Edgar” strategies only. Which is the very definition of “going against diversity”. Which also demonstrates the expected and found power of the card. Which easily explains why Edgar Markov is now banned as a commander.
The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
I'd say about 90% of the Mono-G Nissa and Selvala decks run Sylvan Primordial, but almost all decks that can run green other than Tasigur include Prime-Time. When Primeval Titan can fetch Strip Mine+Wasteland, it does significantly more damage than SP does to an opposing mana base. It's at the point where some of these decks are running Realms Uncharted to fetch Strip Mine, Wasteland, Dust Bowl, and Tectonic Edge, and some decks are running Thermokarst, Winter's Grasp, and Plow Under to round out their LD.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Agreed on all counts, it was just a random thought of mine. Back when Prime was standard or modern legal, I heard the popular thing to do with him was run Valakut and go nuts. But yeah, Prime is so much more busted than Sylvan in 1v1 it ain't even funny...poor green can't get a break on those ETB fatties...lol
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
WotC has their hands full here; they promised a format that was both "balanced and fun". It will be interesting to see how far they go to break up the blue and green dominance in the metagame and whether the weakening of either archetype leaves you with anything that is either balanced or fun...
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Their best bet is to adopt the Leviathan banlist straight up with Vial Smasher Prime Time and Leovold added. Keep Sylvan Prime on a watchlist. That's where I'd start anyway.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I see that Leviathan just banned Emrakul, Cataclysm, and a few other cards today, so perhaps that is a prelude to those cards getting the axe in MTGO 1v1.
As such, it would mean the banning of the following cards which are banned in Leviathan, but not on MTGO 1v1:
Ancient Tomb - If they are serious about getting rid of fast mana, then it would be a good idea to ban this
Cataclysm - Its not a problem now, but I can see the metagame shifting enough where his would become problematic
Chrome Mox - I'm surprised this was legal in the first place
Dig Through Time - This was a mistake that needs to be fixed
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - This is another mistake that needs to be fixed
Grim Monolith - I'm surprised this didn't get the axe when they decided to ban Ring, Vault, and Crypt
Grindstone - This is basically a swap with Painter's Servant, but I could see Servant staying on the banned list
High Tide - I can see where this might be problematic, but it isn't an issue right now
Imperial Seal - The online game is full of tutors, so hitting the good 1 CMC tutors might help
Intuition - Lame, but I get it
Loyal Retainers - I've always felt that this card was kinda busted so I'm not sure why it isn't already banned
Mox Diamond - Same as Chrome Mox
Mystical Tutor - Same as Imperial Seal
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - I get that this card invalidates aggro as a strategy, but I don't see aggro being a thing without more changes
Strip Mine - I think that after Emrakul, this is public enemy #2 on MTGO
Treasure Cruise - Same as Dig
Vampiric Tutor - Same as Imperial Seal
Tasigur, the Golden Fang - I think the numbers speak for themselves
It would also mean the unbanning of the following cards that are banned on MTGO, but not in Leviathan:
Arcum Dagsson - I would leave this banned; you would just be enabling prison by unbanning it
Bazaar of Baghdad - This is a head scratcher; they need to realize that this isn't Vintage
Biorhythm - Makes sense in Multiplayer, but not in 1v1. I have a suspicion that this was a relic of the fact that this was going to be a dual-use (1v1 and Multiplayer)
Braids, Cabal Minion - Same as Arcum
Doomsday - I'm actually surprised this isn't banned in Leviathan, but I think it is safe to leave off the banned list
Griselbrand - I'm really surprised this isn't banned in Leviathan, but I think this should stay banned on MTGO
Limited Resources - Yeah, please don't. Even though this is probably a relic of the multiplayer list, GW Plow Under plus this will totally be a thing and I think that they need to get rid of land-lock combos, not add more
Moat - another head scratcher
Painter's Servant - I would be fine with swapping this with Grindstone, even with Iona on the prowl
Survival of the Fittest - I think that hey would regret unbanning this
Trade Secrets - Again, another concession to the original MP banned list that is perfectly safe to unban in 1v1
Yisan, the Wanderer Bard - I think that this would be borderline as to whether or not to unban this. I would leave it on the list to be honest.
So yeah, the Leviathan list is not perfect either. It does fix a few problems with the current meta with the bans, but there are cards that would be unbanned that are a problem; Arcum, Griselbrand, Limited Resources, and perhaps Braids would be the big ones.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Agreed on Grislebrand, Limited and probably Arcum. Braids isn't nearly as brutal without fast mana. When she's not coming online until turn 4, she's much easier to deal with. I think stax has a valid place in the format. The problem with the current mana denial decks is more that the denial is one sided or worse (the green player ramps while destroying lands), and a broader symmetric stax strategy would play differently. Even Arcum *might* be ok, as again he's coming out later without fast mana and combo into a lock is a very different kind of mono blue than wall of counters.dek, but I don't think it's worth the risk.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Banning Tutors could help, though it doesn't seem that feasible. There are so many to choose from, you would have to ban an awful lot of cards for it to really change very much. Easier to ban the problematic targets than to try to go down that route.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
http://wizardsmtgo.tumblr.com/post/161023137579/commander-1v1-banned-update
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It hurts Baral, Chief of Counters a but by removing a couple of its best ways to refill it's hand, and Tasigur for the same reason, but I doubt it will make countering everything much less attractive or effective, while I know that Tasigur will remain a broken commander in the best colors. Banning strip mine also takes a piece away from Tasigur, and hits the ability of mono green to play mana denial off of Prime Time, but again it won't be enough. The path will still be open against many decks by using wasteland, Prime Time is still an obvious problem, and not being able to take out basics will boost mono blue decks like Baral. Losing dig and cruise hurts vial smasher a bit too as they were big damage sources.
I see zurgo red decks being slightly better positioned since they now can't get locked out of land by green and will have an easier time out casting blue (decks like burn that spread their threats out make it so counter decks have to counter most spells rather than key cards, so they have an easier time breaking through the counter wall, and blue losing dig and cruise makes it more likely that blue runs out of Counters and red starts resolving spells compared to before).
Overall I expect the results to be broadly similar to the May 10th version. If the introduce more bans next month, it might break the stranglehold that Tasigur, Baral, and Vial Smasher have on the format. At that point, the other problem cards that are unbanned will make themselves known. Heck, they only touched on Vial Smasher this time as collateral damage!
I don't think Tasigur stops being a problem in 1v1 until Tasigur is banned. I don't think heavy ld stops being a problem strategy until Prime Time is banned. Then we will see Vial Smasher take over Tasigur's shell and Leovold rise. If those are taken care of, Oloro stands ready to invalidate traditional aggro, especially if zurgo red decks get popular. There are broken strategies that aren't being played solely because they are kept in check by even more broken strategies.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment.
If they wanted to shake up Baral, they should have also hit Emrakul, the Aeons Torn with a ban. As long as Polymorph effects are legal, Emrakul will remain a problem. It just ends up being the most efficient finisher in a deck that just wants to play nothing but answers otherwise.
If they wanted to shake up some of the other decks, I think the only way to do it would be to ban their commanders; there is no one or two cards that make Tasigur, Breya, or Vial too good as generals. You either accept that these decks are going to be the best in the format or you have to cut off the head.
And this will be the eventual problem of trying to achieve "balance". How diverse of a metagame does competitive 1v1 commander need to be? If you banned Tasigur, is Leovold just going to step up in its place? How many draw spells would need to be banned to move Mono-U Draw-Go off the top perch? Is just banning Strip Mine good enough to not de-incentivize abusing Life From the Loam or Crucible of Worlds with Wasteland, Dust Bowl, Tectonic Edge, or Encroaching Wastes? If you get people off of mono-green ramp/LD, do people start migrating to Winter Orb, Stasis, etc. locks? At what point are "the best things you can do" too good for the format that can't be balanced due to the presence of Force of Will (which is the primary balancing factor of formats like Vintage and Legacy)?
To me, this format is like an onion. Once you start peeling layers, there are nothing but more layers underneath... and you are crying the whole time you are peeling. I expect lots and lots of bans over the course of the format if WotC continues on this quest for a "balanced and fun" competitive EDH format.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Its the safest strategy to go about things, given the current situation. Their creation of this format was a terrible way to go about things though. We already have two 1v1 banlists, one of which was tailored to 30 life, which while far from perfect already had a lot of testing data that drove them to their current state. WotC made this banlist up, and its pretty obvious that they didn't understand the format and didn't bother to do much research into the metagames and discussions around leviathan and french rules. If they had, they would have released a list much closer to one of those, and then used their greater access to new data to refine it. If they hadn't made the initial effort so half assed (and it certainly was given the "we're making it a joint banlist because we're too lazy and cheap to code a separate one for multiplayer" debacle), then the format would have started in a much better place and evolved from there.
I don't think its completely a fools errand to pursue balance, but the problem faced by WotC is that many of the biggest problems in the format are new legends. Tasigur, Vial Smasher, Leovold, Breya, Gitrog, these are all pretty new and they were all basically designed to be commanders (the supplemental products were overtly, the Khans/FRF legends were in order to boost the options for wedges). Its a bad look to have cards designed for the format and pushed for the format get banned so quickly because they break it. It shows that they still don't know how to balance for the format, and damages player confidence in the product.
That said, they need to bite the bullet and ban the bull*****. They need to understand that in Commander, being legendary is an enormous upside mechanic that they need to take into account when judging if a card is strong enough to warrant a ban. They need to read every legend as potentially having built in recursion and as always being available. In this format, legends are not balanced by some of the balancing effects inherently built into the game, namely the randomness of the draw and the ability to only use cards once without another card's help.
Tasigur, Vial, and Leovold need to eat a ban, full stop. Baral probably doesn't, as banning Emrakul in addition to Dig and Cruise might weaken the deck enough to make it a reasonable but fair choice. I'm ok with mono blue counters being a thing, so long as its not THE thing. Its healthy for a format to have a hard permission option to police combo and other decks that rely on big plays and key cards.
Stax is fine too. One sided LD abuse that is combined with ramp like the mono green decks, that is unhealthy and unfun. Strong resource denial is generally better for the format when its symmetrical and requires the builder to break the symmetry, or slightly weaker and used to maintain an advantage, sort of as a tempo move rather than a lock. Prime Time makes mono green resource denial far too easy. There is simply no opportunity cost, you cast a fairly efficient beater and automatically destroy two lands, or destroy one land while getting ramped one yourself depending on which helps you more, then you repeat every time you attack with it. It needs to go. If that doesn't do enough, get rid of Sylvan. At least push the strategy to relying on methods that don't give them a fatty to kill you with, like loam and crucible abuse. At least without Strip Mine that becomes weak against mono color strategies, while Prime Time still ramps you two lands immediately and then beats face and ramps at its WORST, and Sylvan will ramp you and nuke a land even against mono color, and then is a fatty afterwards. They are too reliable even when the non basic land hate strategy isn't viable.
Ban Oloro as well. And Derevi. Oloro invalidates zurgo style aggro strategies. If mono blue is weakened enough with the current bannings and eventually Emrakul, low to the ground aggro decks will be able to prey on it, cutting down its prevalence in the format and helping achieve some balance. Vial Smasher is very strong at leading blue based permission decks, because she was designed for multiplayer and unbalanced in a 30 life format where her ability always hits the player you are trying to kill, and lets your permission double as burn to the face, so she needs the axe to prevent her from taking over for mono blue. Oloro is next in line, as he can head up a permission deck that can outlast low to the ground aggro until he draws a sweeper and thus have no real weaknesses. Until those two are gone, weakening mono blue will just lead to those two taking over the role and being similarly over-represented.
Derevi, meanwhile, makes stax too strong. Her ability to ignore commander tax makes it too easy to break the symmetry of mana denial, as does her ability to untap things. She comes down too fast and is far too difficult to deal with. She's probably the last hurdle before you get to a somewhat balanced format, as she isn't as broken as the other things and thus kept in check by them. Without them, I see the format turning into Derevi, decks designed to beat Derevi, and all in combo, as Derevi sneaks past permission which makes it weaker in the format and thus less played opening up space for glass cannon combo.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
I agree with that. French Rules had long been dominated by a handful of lists. Part of the issue with balancing for competitive play is that you make the format competitive. Once you start focusing a format on tournament play, you begin to move away from casual. One of the RCs innovations that has made this format so popular is that they don't care at all about tournament play and maintain the format with a heavy focus on casual play. This fosters an atmosphere of creativity and relaxed deck design for many playgroups, and yes even online. It's kitchen table ethos. It's getting to play with almost any card and with cool legends, and being forced to pick around 60 different cards rather than a few playsets. This doesn't preclude cutthroat decks, obviously, but it doesn't push towards them either. A tournament focused format, on the other hand, puts the most competitive strategies front and center and centers all discussion on those strategies. Balanced and diverse is one thing, but fun is subjective and often counter to balance. The RC has no problem with banning a card for problematic casual omnipresence or otherwise screwing up casual games too easily, even if it's fine or even beneficial to a competitive environment. In a tournament focused format, if there is a card that is important to balance the format for competitive play but that has a tendency to ruin casual games and generally makes the format unfun do you ban it? Like what if Prophet ends up helping a fair deck police the format but is, as usual, annoying and unfun in casual? You aren't going to screw up the balance to pursue a subjective idea of fun, even if most people are in agreement that the card makes the format less fun. Mono blue counter wall, or counter wall decks generally, are considered unfun by a majority of players. Sure, it's problematic currently because the recently banned cards made it too easy to refill hands and polymorph into Emrakul is too easy of a wincon (as is high tide Emrakul), but once those are taken away permission decks can help police the format against all in combo. Would WotC weaken those decks to the point of being tier 3 just to make the format more fun at a casual level (by making permission easier to overcome) even if it means making uninteractive linear strategies top tier? Hopefully not for balance reasons, but that weakens the casual appeal of the format.
WotC will need to treat the format as it does modern or standard. That's why it's great that come July 5th, multiplayer will return to the real EDH banlist.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Banned in 1v1 MTGO Commander
Unbanned in 1v1 MTGO Commander (due to Official RC list now being used for MTGO multiplayer)
For the bans, I was not surprised at all that they banned Vial, but the other 4 are totally bizarre to me. I mean, I get that blue is really strong in 1v1 Commander and making people play Serum Visions, Portent, or Opt as 1 CMC card filtering deliberately makes blue deck worse in the early game, but this seems a little unreal that these were the cards they chose to hit (especially given how unpopular the restriction of Brainstorm and Ponder was in Vintage). And I get that Treachery is an amazing tempo swing, but I hardly expected it to get the axe in any format.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
It's been a couple months since ive played a lot of 1v1 though (been addicted to CKii) so I was interested in seeing how the July bans have played out? Casual pick ups playing things like Rebels vs Angel Tribal isn't exactly a good way to get a read on it.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
http://www.duelcommander.com/2017/10/classic-sept-2017-rules-banlist-update/#comments
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/commander-1-v-1-challenge-2017-12-31
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Edgar is banned in dual/french commander (20 life), but not in MTGO 1V1 Commander.
This weeks MTGO 1V1 challenge was won by Edgar again, and there was 12 Edgar lists in top 32: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/commander-1-v-1-challenge-2018-01-08
A real cheese fest...
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Edgar Markov
Chrome Mox
Ancient Tomb
Mox Diamond
Winter Orb
Sylvan Library
Worldly Tutor
Sylvan Tutor
Unban:
Protean Hulk
Mishra’s Workshop
Bazaar of Baghdad
Griselbrand
http://wizardsmtgo.tumblr.com/post/172998145739/1v1-commander-banned-and-restricted-announcement
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW