Let's also bring up the fact that literally the only purpose of CV, the only thing it dies, is win the game on the spot. Hoof's best use is clearing the table with sufficient set up, but there are times when it could be right to cast it when it won't win you the game. Using it to kill the Voltron player before they can start sniping the table one by one or the combo player before they can go off still leaves the rest of the table and a now 5/5 hoof. It can serve as an emergency blocker in a time of need, or let you crack back at an aggro deck for less than lethal but enough to make it so they can no longer race you, especially when combined with lifelink creatures. Sometimes you'll run up against an impenetrable pillow fort and use hoof to pump you army so they make better fodder for greater good. Obviously, these aren't primary uses for the card or even common ones, but they are occasionally the right call given the circumstances of the game. CV has no such other options. There is no middle state that can be used in a pinch. It is only useful to win the game by forcing you down a strategy that can only win by casting it. Hoof helps win you the game through damage, which is what decks that run it are already trying to do.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
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Ban worthy is not something we can define because if we could we would know black and white what is and should be on the banned list. The Rules Committee does not have a hard rule in place for what is on the banned list so when it comes to what is ban worthy there is no way we can measure it because there is no definition for which the RC abides as the point in which a card should be banned. Its why we cant say that because card X is banned card Y should also be.
I think that this is really the main issue being discussed, except it isn't. I really don't care if Hoof is banned and most of the people supporting it also find it boring (so don't care), but I do feel if hoof is card that should be banned that it isn't alone. Craterhoof is being defended because it isn't as good as the banned cards, heck P. Hulk got unbanned and it is flat out better.
When most of the arguments for banning it include giving the hoof player another powerful card, haste enabler, and/or instant speed token generation effects, I really feel that in order to justify banning it you need to ban any two card combos that "can win the game from out of nowhere". That would be a pretty big list.
I guess we can use the argument that you won't cast CHB on an empty board by saying you wouldn't cast CV without a way to protect it. If my win-con is CV, I'm going to greaves up my Commander and cast CV with Boseju, who shelters all. That sounds like such a difficult task compared to dropping 10+ creatures to deal upwards of 120 damage in one swing, and then leave yourself wide open if it fizzles.
I guess we can use the argument that you won't cast CHB on an empty board by saying you wouldn't cast CV without a way to protect it. If my win-con is CV, I'm going to greaves up my Commander and cast CV with Boseju, who shelters all. That sounds like such a difficult task compared to dropping 10+ creatures to deal upwards of 120 damage in one swing, and then leave yourself wide open if it fizzles.
Yeah, getting an army large enough for a Craterhoof win is pretty trivial, and I suspect anyone who claims they'll wrath every single time a green player gets 5+ creatures in play is lying.
I guess we can use the argument that you won't cast CHB on an empty board by saying you wouldn't cast CV without a way to protect it. If my win-con is CV, I'm going to greaves up my Commander and cast CV with Boseju, who shelters all. That sounds like such a difficult task compared to dropping 10+ creatures to deal upwards of 120 damage in one swing, and then leave yourself wide open if it fizzles.
It is. I'm not pretending, it's a fact. You just proved it. If Hoof is your win-con, you are adding army producing spells to your deck, where as with CV, you pick a 5-C legend that you legally play CV in, and... lands. On top of that, you need to draw Hoof, draw these armies, have an opposing boardstate willing to let you overrun them. Don't be dense, this is exactly as you said, nonsense.
Yeah, getting an army large enough for a Craterhoof win is pretty trivial, and I suspect anyone who claims they'll wrath every single time a green player gets 5+ creatures in play is lying.
How trivial? 10+ creatures into play is trivial? That is what's required for a win. I think some of you are stuck in 1v1 mode here. Craterhoof needs 5 creatures to effectively eliminate one player, and over 10 to eliminate a table. So a win-condition requiring 10 other pieces on the board and wins through combat damage. If we want to settle on eliminating one player than you need to ban Xenogod like yesterday. Between Malignus and Phyrexian Hydra you'll be wishing to stare down 5 tokens and a Hoof.
Please, now this is getting ridiculous.
Finally, I actually run Hoof in my Yeva, Natures Herald 1v1 deck for MTGO play. I've won with hoof 6 times while playing upwards of 30-35 times with an overall win total around ~20. I remember most Hoof wins, not all, but on average I'd say I'd have to have at least 6 other creatures on the board to eliminate another player with the overrun, and it's usually close, not some blowout bringing them down to -100, more like -5. Its a 30 life format as well. How can this be though?!? Well ladies and gents, the opponent plays magic too. They cast creatures, play enchantments, run removal, do things to stop me, etc. So at a table with at least 2 other players, I'm supposed to believe that Hoof wins more regularly?
I guess we can use the argument that you won't cast CHB on an empty board by saying you wouldn't cast CV without a way to protect it. If my win-con is CV, I'm going to greaves up my Commander and cast CV with Boseju, who shelters all. That sounds like such a difficult task compared to dropping 10+ creatures to deal upwards of 120 damage in one swing, and then leave yourself wide open if it fizzles.
Yeah, getting an army large enough for a Craterhoof win is pretty trivial, and I suspect anyone who claims they'll wrath every single time a green player gets 5+ creatures in play is lying.
In 1v1? Yeah, it's probably right to clear your opponent's board. If you are talking multiplayer, not so much, because unless it's the end game or your threatening to combo you could know they have Hoof IN HAND and still not fear it, because they aren't going to spend a wincon to take out just one player. Yes, it will happen occasionally, usually when there is a good reason, but you should be aware of that and play accordingly if you think there's a reason for them to kill you. Now, if those creatures are good enough, or if they have 11+ and could actually kill the board, yea you should wrath, even if you know they DONT have Hoof. Why are we arguing that Hoof is bad because it means you can't ignore your opponent's army?
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Now, if those creatures are good enough, or if they have 11+ and could actually kill the board, yea you should wrath, even if you know they DONT have Hoof. Why are we arguing that Hoof is bad because it means you can't ignore your opponent's army?
There was a claim earlier in the thread that people would slam a wrath every time the green player hit enough creatures, even if they were just 1/1 tokens. That is what I'm referring to.
Now, if those creatures are good enough, or if they have 11+ and could actually kill the board, yea you should wrath, even if you know they DONT have Hoof. Why are we arguing that Hoof is bad because it means you can't ignore your opponent's army?
There was a claim earlier in the thread that people would slam a wrath every time the green player hit enough creatures, even if they were just 1/1 tokens. That is what I'm referring to.
Actually, no, there wasn't if you actually read their responses. You asked if they would windmill slam against 5 1/1's, and their responses were "i'd consider it because there are a number of cards discussed in this thread that can use that position to end the game (notice that doesn't mean they would do it every time, but consider the situation)" and "Yes, because I'll also be wiping everyone else's board (which means that the green player amassing a board is a factor that tips the decision making process in favor of wrathing, depending on circumstances)." You got two responses that said it might be a good idea, with caveats, which is the right answer, because sometimes it IS right to slam the wrath in that case. If I had an empty board and they keep making tokens and holding one card, my my that's a signal. If I have creatures and they throw a few tokens down, I'm probably holding the wrath, and Hoof probably isn't killing me (or even getting played even if they have the mana to do it and I know they have it in hand).
I'll also point out that when you have to resort to such a narrow scenario to attempt to prove that the card is a problem, its not a freakin problem. Seriously, if they have better creatures, suddenly your argument is absurd because its a no brainer, you should wrath because you'll clear their board of good creatures while losing nothing yourself. If they have a few 1/1s and you have a better board, you shouldn't fear Hoof. You need to set it up so that your board is empty, they have 5 1/1s and a Hoof, and they want to kill you and only you, and that's just not realistic, because one kill spell ruins their plan and leaves you alive to focus on screwing them for being an idiot. The worst case scenario here is, quite simply, dumb as hell, and the realistic scenarios aren't problematic.
And Impossible, you say that if you're running Hoof, you're going to load up on token generators to make it better? Great, you've built a token deck, which does two things to blow the ban Hoof argument out of the water. First, it contradicts the "You slot it in to any green deck and it just goes nuts" argument, as now you're building around it to make it go nuts. Yeah, getting him lethal is trivial when you're deck is dedicated to getting him to lethal, but to be problematic it would have to be trivial for just any green deck, not one built to optimize him. CV is trivial in any deck it can be run in, due to how 5 color mana bases work and the fact that you have a 5 color dude sitting in you CZ. There is no building around required, you just slot it into literally any 5 color deck that isn't Tazri. Hoof doesn't get lethal that easily unless you focus on pumping out tokens. Second, token decks, including high tier token decks, existed before Hoof. Hoof makes them better, but those decks would still exist at about the same power level without it. Rhys would still be as good, it would just lean a bit more into the combos that it already runs, like it did before Hoof. So we're looking at a card that doesn't hit CV level cheese unless you build your deck around it, but if you do you are building a deck that is already good enough that Hoof becomes just another good card rather than the focus of the deck. Its like when Prossh got brought up earlier, as if Prossh isn't going to combo out the turn it lands instead of passing to give you a chance to ramp. When you're complaining about the backup wincon, you need to take a step back.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I recently built a monogreen deck that would often grab hoofie because it kills faster than the eldrazi wincons.
I would have to specifically build around it (or friggen have Avenger of Zendikar out) in order to have it be able to consistently and reasonably kill more than two players in any given table.
In games I've watched hoofie wipe whole boards no boardwipes ended up happening at all in that game. These are also often 5 player games, so killing off 2 people, while very good, isn't always going to win.
It's about as much work as trying to wipe a table with Xenagod chain killing my opponents with a bloated hand.
I don't even run the card in my decks and I made people groan because I reanimate it from someone else's graveyard.
The card is about as boring as it gets.
No one has suggested it isn't boring, I haven't actually seen a single post in this debate where someone claims to even like it. People are defending it because they don't see it as on par with other cards on the ban list. They also see several cards that are better in green like tooth and nail that as long as you have enough mana to cast it can wipe the table without even needing five or six creatures. So if craterhoof should be banned than so should those cards, and a lot of the big splashy stuff in general.
Personally I'd rather have a commander rule where any non permanent spell that allows you to search your library for non basic land card/s, can only be cast when you could cast sorcery, and instead of putting the card in your hand, in play, on top of your library, or on battle field it is instead exiled face up. Then during your next draw phase you put it into your hand. It would slow things down, and if someone searched for something that could wipe the whole table than everyone playing could respond.
Heck, I don't think Coalition Victory should be banned. Combo players will combo anyways. Same with Craterhoof. It's the tutors and fast mana that should go. That would ease the complaints about dying to Craterhoof, and make kills by said card more mythical than it currently is now.
I was playing a Blue / Black deck last night. I had coffers and mana up with a Coffin Queen. Coffin Queen rezed my own Geth who then rezed an opposing Avenger of Zendikar (12 tokens) at my opponents end step. The rezing flipped a Craterhoof Behemoth into his graveyard. I went from Coffin Queen and mana to killing all of my opponents in the one turn and I wasn't token or running craterhoof in this instance.
It happened to have been the third time Coffin Queen was in play given my commander was Gisa and Geralf. You could argue that the issue was that I had sufficient mana, that nobody bombed all of the graveyards (one graveyard got bogged this game), but honestly it was too easy and I wasn't even the type of deck built to use it.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I was playing a Blue / Black deck last night. I had coffers and mana up with a Coffin Queen. Coffin Queen rezed my own Geth who then rezed an opposing Avenger of Zendikar (12 tokens) at my opponents end step. The rezing flipped a Craterhoof Behemoth into his graveyard. I went from Coffin Queen and mana to killing all of my opponents in the one turn and I wasn't token or running craterhoof in this instance.
It happened to have been the third time Coffin Queen was in play given my commander was Gisa and Geralf. You could argue that the issue was that I had sufficient mana, that nobody bombed all of the graveyards (one graveyard got bogged this game), but honestly it was too easy and I wasn't even the type of deck built to use it.
So what you are saying is that Coffin Queen needs to be banned?
I was playing a Blue / Black deck last night. I had coffers and mana up with a Coffin Queen. Coffin Queen rezed my own Geth who then rezed an opposing Avenger of Zendikar (12 tokens) at my opponents end step. The rezing flipped a Craterhoof Behemoth into his graveyard. I went from Coffin Queen and mana to killing all of my opponents in the one turn and I wasn't token or running craterhoof in this instance.
It happened to have been the third time Coffin Queen was in play given my commander was Gisa and Geralf. You could argue that the issue was that I had sufficient mana, that nobody bombed all of the graveyards (one graveyard got bogged this game), but honestly it was too easy and I wasn't even the type of deck built to use it.
So what your saying is: you put at least 13 mana on the board to pump into a must answer card (which you were able to use because you ran a dedicated graveyard deck and hadn't gotten your yard nuked). The must answer card won the game as it often does when you can pump a bunch of mana into it. Hoof only became the correct target because you were able to grab Avenger out of the yard which luckily gave you access to the perfect follow up play.
I'm really struggling to see why you think an example that relied on you getting lucky after having access to double digit mana and good cards is an argument against Hoof. You basically said "my dedicated graveyard deck did what it was supposed to and forged through opposing removal, then I used my abundance of mana to translate this favorable board position into a lucky win". This is the sort of epic play that is SUPPOSED to happen in edh.
Also, you must have had a solid board to start with in addition to all of this, because none of the cards you mentioned could even attack! Geth had summoning sickness, as did the plants, while Avenger, Hoof, and Coffin Queen were all tapped. You cannot go from coffin queen and mana, as you said, to killing the board with hoof the way you described (let alone that having queen out and able to tap means you also had Geth, functionally, and Geth and mana is a potentially game winning threat on his own).
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
So what your saying is: you put at least 13 mana on the board to pump into a must answer card (which you were able to use because you ran a dedicated graveyard deck and hadn't gotten your yard nuked). The must answer card won the game as it often does when you can pump a bunch of mana into it. Hoof only became the correct target because you were able to grab Avenger out of the yard which luckily gave you access to the perfect follow up play.
I'm really struggling to see why you think an example that relied on you getting lucky after having access to double digit mana and good cards is an argument against Hoof. You basically said "my dedicated graveyard deck did what it was supposed to and forged through opposing removal, then I used my abundance of mana to translate this favorable board position into a lucky win". This is the sort of epic play that is SUPPOSED to happen in edh.
Also, you must have had a solid board to start with in addition to all of this, because none of the cards you mentioned could even attack! Geth had summoning sickness, as did the plants, while Avenger, Hoof, and Coffin Queen were all tapped. You cannot go from coffin queen and mana, as you said, to killing the board with hoof the way you described (let alone that having queen out and able to tap means you also had Geth, functionally, and Geth and mana is a potentially game winning threat on his own).
My board was literally Coffin Queen and Gisa and Geralf. I did the resurrect at the end of my opponents turns which made it so I could attack with the avenger tokens on my turn. I was playing behind a potential for Cyclonic Rift play to boot which made sitting back with Coffin Queen an acceptable play. There had been a wrath a turn before which my follow up play had been to play my commander and Coffin Queen.
So what your saying is: you put at least 13 mana on the board to pump into a must answer card (which you were able to use because you ran a dedicated graveyard deck and hadn't gotten your yard nuked). The must answer card won the game as it often does when you can pump a bunch of mana into it. Hoof only became the correct target because you were able to grab Avenger out of the yard which luckily gave you access to the perfect follow up play.
I'm really struggling to see why you think an example that relied on you getting lucky after having access to double digit mana and good cards is an argument against Hoof. You basically said "my dedicated graveyard deck did what it was supposed to and forged through opposing removal, then I used my abundance of mana to translate this favorable board position into a lucky win". This is the sort of epic play that is SUPPOSED to happen in edh.
Also, you must have had a solid board to start with in addition to all of this, because none of the cards you mentioned could even attack! Geth had summoning sickness, as did the plants, while Avenger, Hoof, and Coffin Queen were all tapped. You cannot go from coffin queen and mana, as you said, to killing the board with hoof the way you described (let alone that having queen out and able to tap means you also had Geth, functionally, and Geth and mana is a potentially game winning threat on his own).
My board was literally Coffin Queen and Gisa and Geralf. I did the resurrect at the end of my opponents turns which made it so I could attack with the avenger tokens on my turn. I was playing behind a potential for Cyclonic Rift play to boot which made sitting back with Coffin Queen an acceptable play. There had been a wrath a turn before which my follow up play had been to play my commander and Coffin Queen.
~12 lands, mind you, that you didn't mega-ramp into by being in non-ramp colors. That potentially puts this game at the 12-15 turn range. So on turn 12-15, you got lucky and won the game. Sounds like a good game to me, I probably would been a bit board at that point, especially with the 4+ players still alive as you said you killed the table. Couldn't you go infinite with, like, a ton of things for the same mana you had available? Yeah, you def could have....
~12 lands, mind you, that you didn't mega-ramp into by being in non-ramp colors. That potentially puts this game at the 12-15 turn range. So on turn 12-15, you got lucky and won the game. Sounds like a good game to me, I probably would been a bit board at that point, especially with the 4+ players still alive as you said you killed the table. Couldn't you go infinite with, like, a ton of things for the same mana you had available? Yeah, you def could have....
~12 lands, mind you, that you didn't mega-ramp into by being in non-ramp colors. That potentially puts this game at the 12-15 turn range. So on turn 12-15, you got lucky and won the game. Sounds like a good game to me, I probably would been a bit board at that point, especially with the 4+ players still alive as you said you killed the table. Couldn't you go infinite with, like, a ton of things for the same mana you had available? Yeah, you def could have....
Let me stop you right there. Just house-ban the freaking card then? You clearly have precedent, I don't even know why we are disscussing it at this point. This sounds like some personal vendetta rather than some well thought out argument. Geeze. When the game hits 12 manna, most are begging for a conclusion, and in your case, a ~3 card combo and a bunch of luck accomplished that. Again, kudos to you, it must have been your night.
Let me stop you right there. Just house-ban the freaking card then? You clearly have precedent, I don't even know why we are disscussing it at this point. This sounds like some personal vendetta rather than some well thought out argument. Geeze. When the game hits 12 manna, most are begging for a conclusion, and in your case, a ~3 card combo and a bunch of luck accomplished that. Again, kudos to you, it must have been your night.
If you are playing combo tactics and ending games on turns 3-6 then yes, craterhoof is not a problem that needs to be banned. The banned list also does not reflect anything at all to interact with that kind of meta. I totally understand that if you are going at commander from the standpoint of trying to play competitive magic that its never going to be a problem but the banned list that the RC has made does not at all reflect that style of play.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
This is like saying I casted Extract from Darkness, someone milled by my effect aJin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, I revived and proceeded to win the game, then claim Jin-Gitaxias needs to be banned asap because it's a problem.
By the fact you were running a Cabal Coffers to begin with I wouldn't necessarily call your deck the most casual of casual, that card tends to enable all kinds of crazy big mana plays... and crazy big mana plays tend to end the game if unanswered.
So what your saying is: you put at least 13 mana on the board to pump into a must answer card (which you were able to use because you ran a dedicated graveyard deck and hadn't gotten your yard nuked). The must answer card won the game as it often does when you can pump a bunch of mana into it. Hoof only became the correct target because you were able to grab Avenger out of the yard which luckily gave you access to the perfect follow up play.
I'm really struggling to see why you think an example that relied on you getting lucky after having access to double digit mana and good cards is an argument against Hoof. You basically said "my dedicated graveyard deck did what it was supposed to and forged through opposing removal, then I used my abundance of mana to translate this favorable board position into a lucky win". This is the sort of epic play that is SUPPOSED to happen in edh.
Also, you must have had a solid board to start with in addition to all of this, because none of the cards you mentioned could even attack! Geth had summoning sickness, as did the plants, while Avenger, Hoof, and Coffin Queen were all tapped. You cannot go from coffin queen and mana, as you said, to killing the board with hoof the way you described (let alone that having queen out and able to tap means you also had Geth, functionally, and Geth and mana is a potentially game winning threat on his own).
My board was literally Coffin Queen and Gisa and Geralf. I did the resurrect at the end of my opponents turns which made it so I could attack with the avenger tokens on my turn. I was playing behind a potential for Cyclonic Rift play to boot which made sitting back with Coffin Queen an acceptable play. There had been a wrath a turn before which my follow up play had been to play my commander and Coffin Queen.
~12 lands, mind you, that you didn't mega-ramp into by being in non-ramp colors. That potentially puts this game at the 12-15 turn range. So on turn 12-15, you got lucky and won the game. Sounds like a good game to me, I probably would been a bit board at that point, especially with the 4+ players still alive as you said you killed the table. Couldn't you go infinite with, like, a ton of things for the same mana you had available? Yeah, you def could have....
Yea, I was going to say that he could have rezed kiki jiki, dumping pestermite into the yard and rezed that, but he made it seem like he did it all on his turn. Doing it end of turn would have let him combo out, and for less mana.
It's still dumb to act like his board was just lands, queen, and G&G, because having queen out and ready to tap means you also effectively have whatever the best creature in your yard is, which was obviously Geth.
And now knowing that this followed a wrath, yeah, he was in a great position.
Geth takes over games, and you managed to get him out when the board had been wiped. Also, your opponent wrathed and you followed up with G and G and queen, showing Geth in the yard ready to take over the game by letting grab the strongest creatures and slam them on a decimated board. You then passed an entire round where people could have dealt with her while she was unable to tap, and she survived. Then you passed another whole round where your opponents again could not answer the obvious threat.
You won because your opponents could not, over the course of two turns, deal with a must deal with threat. Even spot removal on queen would have worked in response to grabbing Avenger by exiling Geth before you got to your next turn,
Yes, lucking in to hoof by grabbing Avenger from the yard at the end of their turn let you seal the deal immediately, but that's how the game works. You could have lucked into an infinite combo instead. But let's pretend that Hoof didn't come up, that it was banned. You still untap with Geth, coffers mana, your commander and thus the ability to churn out zombies from your yard if there's nothing to grab with Geth, and Avenger and his plant token army. You already have a dominant board, and your about to make it crazier with Geth. Your opponents could not answer the obvious threat over the course of two turns, and will be in top deck mode. You are likely to come out on top here, especially if you have any threat assessment capability (and it sounds like you do). Luckily dumping hoof into the yard at the best possible moment absolutely made you more likely to win, but we're talking increasing your odds from 85% to 95% (rift or evacuation would have screwed you worse grabbing hoof if you're opponent actually had them ready, btw, as the green player would have got hoof and Avenger in hand, giving him the potentially game winning play). I think that getting lucky raising your chances of winning from "really, really good" to "almost certain unless they have an answer right now" is fine. If you don't think so, I again point you to Kiki Jiki, and ask whether he needs a ban too, because he could have won you the game just as easily. Actually, he's a great ******* comparison generally, as he is capable of winning out of nowhere (literally nowhere, like completely empty board) for 8 mana with a few cards, and if you go up to 10 mana you get a few more, but realistically you can eot flash most in of them so you only need 5 mana to win with Kiki. It's tougher in mono color, but so is hoof.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Also, holy ***** people we're talking about a game that was at turn 10 after 3 wraths, and the guy who weathered that storm the best because he ran a GY deck thinks a card was OP because he got lucky while he was already ahead.
And if you were ramping every other turn with crucible and myriad, and having coffers, yeah that's ramping hard holy *****.
This is a fluky play that relied on everything that happened in the course of the game. This is how magic is supposed to work. Your anecdote is actually going against your argument.
You are usually really reasonable and have even approached this topic reasonably for the most part, but this card seems like a major blind spot for you.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Why is the "reanimation/clone target" not a good argument against Hoof if it is one of the main reasons that Primeval Titan is banned? As far as those cards go (Pathbreaker Ibex, Jazal Goldmane, etc) Craterhoof is so much more easily abused by graveyard and clone decks.
I personally don't care if hoof stays or goes, but it's a bit disingenuous to say that it can't be abused with reanimation while also saying that PT is overcentralizing because of that. You only need 5-ish creatures to make it lethal, that makes it a pretty juicy target.
Why is the "reanimation/clone target" not a good argument against Hoof if it is one of the main reasons that Primeval Titan is banned? As far as those cards go (Pathbreaker Ibex, Jazal Goldmane, etc) Craterhoof is so much more easily abused by graveyard and clone decks.
I personally don't care if hoof stays or goes, but it's a bit disingenuous to say that it can't be abused with reanimation while also saying that PT is overcentralizing because of that. You only need 5-ish creatures to make it lethal, that makes it a pretty juicy target.
Because you need a solid board-state to do anything worthwhile with hoof, whereas your board-state doesn't matter at all with PrimeTime and will generally always be the best choice to copy or revive.
Why is the "reanimation/clone target" not a good argument against Hoof if it is one of the main reasons that Primeval Titan is banned? As far as those cards go (Pathbreaker Ibex, Jazal Goldmane, etc) Craterhoof is so much more easily abused by graveyard and clone decks.
I personally don't care if hoof stays or goes, but it's a bit disingenuous to say that it can't be abused with reanimation while also saying that PT is overcentralizing because of that. You only need 5-ish creatures to make it lethal, that makes it a pretty juicy target.
Because you need a solid board-state to do anything worthwhile with hoof, whereas your board-state doesn't matter at all with PrimeTime and will generally always be the best choice to copy or revive.
Additionally: hoof is far less likely to stick around and create a grab the hoof mini game even if everyone can take advantage of it, because hoof is usually cast only after the caster believes it will win the game, so if Hoof resolves it's either ending the game or, if it doesn't, a poor target for theft as it's then just a 5/5. It's a crappy bribery target for control decks. It's a crappy reanimation target unless you have the right board (if, in USBs story, the hoof was in the yard before the Avenger, he would not have grabbed hoof, because it would have been a crappy target. It would have been a 5/5 if he grabbed it on the end of his opponents turn, or +4/+4 and trample to geth and gisa/geralf if he got it on his turn).
Prime Time and Prophet are always great options to steal, always great to grab with bribery, always great to hit with desertion and similar, always great to reanimate. This is the factor that makes then centralizing.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I think that this is really the main issue being discussed, except it isn't. I really don't care if Hoof is banned and most of the people supporting it also find it boring (so don't care), but I do feel if hoof is card that should be banned that it isn't alone. Craterhoof is being defended because it isn't as good as the banned cards, heck P. Hulk got unbanned and it is flat out better.
When most of the arguments for banning it include giving the hoof player another powerful card, haste enabler, and/or instant speed token generation effects, I really feel that in order to justify banning it you need to ban any two card combos that "can win the game from out of nowhere". That would be a pretty big list.
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It is. I'm not pretending, it's a fact. You just proved it. If Hoof is your win-con, you are adding army producing spells to your deck, where as with CV, you pick a 5-C legend that you legally play CV in, and... lands. On top of that, you need to draw Hoof, draw these armies, have an opposing boardstate willing to let you overrun them. Don't be dense, this is exactly as you said, nonsense.
How trivial? 10+ creatures into play is trivial? That is what's required for a win. I think some of you are stuck in 1v1 mode here. Craterhoof needs 5 creatures to effectively eliminate one player, and over 10 to eliminate a table. So a win-condition requiring 10 other pieces on the board and wins through combat damage. If we want to settle on eliminating one player than you need to ban Xenogod like yesterday. Between Malignus and Phyrexian Hydra you'll be wishing to stare down 5 tokens and a Hoof.
Please, now this is getting ridiculous.
Finally, I actually run Hoof in my Yeva, Natures Herald 1v1 deck for MTGO play. I've won with hoof 6 times while playing upwards of 30-35 times with an overall win total around ~20. I remember most Hoof wins, not all, but on average I'd say I'd have to have at least 6 other creatures on the board to eliminate another player with the overrun, and it's usually close, not some blowout bringing them down to -100, more like -5. Its a 30 life format as well. How can this be though?!? Well ladies and gents, the opponent plays magic too. They cast creatures, play enchantments, run removal, do things to stop me, etc. So at a table with at least 2 other players, I'm supposed to believe that Hoof wins more regularly?
In 1v1? Yeah, it's probably right to clear your opponent's board. If you are talking multiplayer, not so much, because unless it's the end game or your threatening to combo you could know they have Hoof IN HAND and still not fear it, because they aren't going to spend a wincon to take out just one player. Yes, it will happen occasionally, usually when there is a good reason, but you should be aware of that and play accordingly if you think there's a reason for them to kill you. Now, if those creatures are good enough, or if they have 11+ and could actually kill the board, yea you should wrath, even if you know they DONT have Hoof. Why are we arguing that Hoof is bad because it means you can't ignore your opponent's army?
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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Actually, no, there wasn't if you actually read their responses. You asked if they would windmill slam against 5 1/1's, and their responses were "i'd consider it because there are a number of cards discussed in this thread that can use that position to end the game (notice that doesn't mean they would do it every time, but consider the situation)" and "Yes, because I'll also be wiping everyone else's board (which means that the green player amassing a board is a factor that tips the decision making process in favor of wrathing, depending on circumstances)." You got two responses that said it might be a good idea, with caveats, which is the right answer, because sometimes it IS right to slam the wrath in that case. If I had an empty board and they keep making tokens and holding one card, my my that's a signal. If I have creatures and they throw a few tokens down, I'm probably holding the wrath, and Hoof probably isn't killing me (or even getting played even if they have the mana to do it and I know they have it in hand).
I'll also point out that when you have to resort to such a narrow scenario to attempt to prove that the card is a problem, its not a freakin problem. Seriously, if they have better creatures, suddenly your argument is absurd because its a no brainer, you should wrath because you'll clear their board of good creatures while losing nothing yourself. If they have a few 1/1s and you have a better board, you shouldn't fear Hoof. You need to set it up so that your board is empty, they have 5 1/1s and a Hoof, and they want to kill you and only you, and that's just not realistic, because one kill spell ruins their plan and leaves you alive to focus on screwing them for being an idiot. The worst case scenario here is, quite simply, dumb as hell, and the realistic scenarios aren't problematic.
And Impossible, you say that if you're running Hoof, you're going to load up on token generators to make it better? Great, you've built a token deck, which does two things to blow the ban Hoof argument out of the water. First, it contradicts the "You slot it in to any green deck and it just goes nuts" argument, as now you're building around it to make it go nuts. Yeah, getting him lethal is trivial when you're deck is dedicated to getting him to lethal, but to be problematic it would have to be trivial for just any green deck, not one built to optimize him. CV is trivial in any deck it can be run in, due to how 5 color mana bases work and the fact that you have a 5 color dude sitting in you CZ. There is no building around required, you just slot it into literally any 5 color deck that isn't Tazri. Hoof doesn't get lethal that easily unless you focus on pumping out tokens. Second, token decks, including high tier token decks, existed before Hoof. Hoof makes them better, but those decks would still exist at about the same power level without it. Rhys would still be as good, it would just lean a bit more into the combos that it already runs, like it did before Hoof. So we're looking at a card that doesn't hit CV level cheese unless you build your deck around it, but if you do you are building a deck that is already good enough that Hoof becomes just another good card rather than the focus of the deck. Its like when Prossh got brought up earlier, as if Prossh isn't going to combo out the turn it lands instead of passing to give you a chance to ramp. When you're complaining about the backup wincon, you need to take a step back.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I would have to specifically build around it (or friggen have Avenger of Zendikar out) in order to have it be able to consistently and reasonably kill more than two players in any given table.
In games I've watched hoofie wipe whole boards no boardwipes ended up happening at all in that game. These are also often 5 player games, so killing off 2 people, while very good, isn't always going to win.
It's about as much work as trying to wipe a table with Xenagod chain killing my opponents with a bloated hand.
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No one has suggested it isn't boring, I haven't actually seen a single post in this debate where someone claims to even like it. People are defending it because they don't see it as on par with other cards on the ban list. They also see several cards that are better in green like tooth and nail that as long as you have enough mana to cast it can wipe the table without even needing five or six creatures. So if craterhoof should be banned than so should those cards, and a lot of the big splashy stuff in general.
Personally I'd rather have a commander rule where any non permanent spell that allows you to search your library for non basic land card/s, can only be cast when you could cast sorcery, and instead of putting the card in your hand, in play, on top of your library, or on battle field it is instead exiled face up. Then during your next draw phase you put it into your hand. It would slow things down, and if someone searched for something that could wipe the whole table than everyone playing could respond.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
It happened to have been the third time Coffin Queen was in play given my commander was Gisa and Geralf. You could argue that the issue was that I had sufficient mana, that nobody bombed all of the graveyards (one graveyard got bogged this game), but honestly it was too easy and I wasn't even the type of deck built to use it.
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[Modern] Allies
So what you are saying is that Coffin Queen needs to be banned?
So what your saying is: you put at least 13 mana on the board to pump into a must answer card (which you were able to use because you ran a dedicated graveyard deck and hadn't gotten your yard nuked). The must answer card won the game as it often does when you can pump a bunch of mana into it. Hoof only became the correct target because you were able to grab Avenger out of the yard which luckily gave you access to the perfect follow up play.
I'm really struggling to see why you think an example that relied on you getting lucky after having access to double digit mana and good cards is an argument against Hoof. You basically said "my dedicated graveyard deck did what it was supposed to and forged through opposing removal, then I used my abundance of mana to translate this favorable board position into a lucky win". This is the sort of epic play that is SUPPOSED to happen in edh.
Also, you must have had a solid board to start with in addition to all of this, because none of the cards you mentioned could even attack! Geth had summoning sickness, as did the plants, while Avenger, Hoof, and Coffin Queen were all tapped. You cannot go from coffin queen and mana, as you said, to killing the board with hoof the way you described (let alone that having queen out and able to tap means you also had Geth, functionally, and Geth and mana is a potentially game winning threat on his own).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
My board was literally Coffin Queen and Gisa and Geralf. I did the resurrect at the end of my opponents turns which made it so I could attack with the avenger tokens on my turn. I was playing behind a potential for Cyclonic Rift play to boot which made sitting back with Coffin Queen an acceptable play. There had been a wrath a turn before which my follow up play had been to play my commander and Coffin Queen.
My board was literally lands, Coffin Queen, Gisa and Geralf.
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[Modern] Allies
~12 lands, mind you, that you didn't mega-ramp into by being in non-ramp colors. That potentially puts this game at the 12-15 turn range. So on turn 12-15, you got lucky and won the game. Sounds like a good game to me, I probably would been a bit board at that point, especially with the 4+ players still alive as you said you killed the table. Couldn't you go infinite with, like, a ton of things for the same mana you had available? Yeah, you def could have....
1) I had done 2x Myriad Landscape at this point and hit all of my land drops due to Crucible of Worlds so it was like mabe turn 10.
2) We had wrathed the board at least 3 times by the time I did this. I did an Oblivion Stone and the GB deck did 2x Kagemaro, First to Suffer and got bogged due to looping Kagemaro with Volrath's Stronghold.
3) We dont run infinites. It's a meta thing.
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[Modern] Allies
Let me stop you right there. Just house-ban the freaking card then? You clearly have precedent, I don't even know why we are disscussing it at this point. This sounds like some personal vendetta rather than some well thought out argument. Geeze. When the game hits 12 manna, most are begging for a conclusion, and in your case, a ~3 card combo and a bunch of luck accomplished that. Again, kudos to you, it must have been your night.
If you are playing combo tactics and ending games on turns 3-6 then yes, craterhoof is not a problem that needs to be banned. The banned list also does not reflect anything at all to interact with that kind of meta. I totally understand that if you are going at commander from the standpoint of trying to play competitive magic that its never going to be a problem but the banned list that the RC has made does not at all reflect that style of play.
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[Modern] Allies
By the fact you were running a Cabal Coffers to begin with I wouldn't necessarily call your deck the most casual of casual, that card tends to enable all kinds of crazy big mana plays... and crazy big mana plays tend to end the game if unanswered.
Yea, I was going to say that he could have rezed kiki jiki, dumping pestermite into the yard and rezed that, but he made it seem like he did it all on his turn. Doing it end of turn would have let him combo out, and for less mana.
It's still dumb to act like his board was just lands, queen, and G&G, because having queen out and ready to tap means you also effectively have whatever the best creature in your yard is, which was obviously Geth.
And now knowing that this followed a wrath, yeah, he was in a great position.
Geth takes over games, and you managed to get him out when the board had been wiped. Also, your opponent wrathed and you followed up with G and G and queen, showing Geth in the yard ready to take over the game by letting grab the strongest creatures and slam them on a decimated board. You then passed an entire round where people could have dealt with her while she was unable to tap, and she survived. Then you passed another whole round where your opponents again could not answer the obvious threat.
You won because your opponents could not, over the course of two turns, deal with a must deal with threat. Even spot removal on queen would have worked in response to grabbing Avenger by exiling Geth before you got to your next turn,
Yes, lucking in to hoof by grabbing Avenger from the yard at the end of their turn let you seal the deal immediately, but that's how the game works. You could have lucked into an infinite combo instead. But let's pretend that Hoof didn't come up, that it was banned. You still untap with Geth, coffers mana, your commander and thus the ability to churn out zombies from your yard if there's nothing to grab with Geth, and Avenger and his plant token army. You already have a dominant board, and your about to make it crazier with Geth. Your opponents could not answer the obvious threat over the course of two turns, and will be in top deck mode. You are likely to come out on top here, especially if you have any threat assessment capability (and it sounds like you do). Luckily dumping hoof into the yard at the best possible moment absolutely made you more likely to win, but we're talking increasing your odds from 85% to 95% (rift or evacuation would have screwed you worse grabbing hoof if you're opponent actually had them ready, btw, as the green player would have got hoof and Avenger in hand, giving him the potentially game winning play). I think that getting lucky raising your chances of winning from "really, really good" to "almost certain unless they have an answer right now" is fine. If you don't think so, I again point you to Kiki Jiki, and ask whether he needs a ban too, because he could have won you the game just as easily. Actually, he's a great ******* comparison generally, as he is capable of winning out of nowhere (literally nowhere, like completely empty board) for 8 mana with a few cards, and if you go up to 10 mana you get a few more, but realistically you can eot flash most in of them so you only need 5 mana to win with Kiki. It's tougher in mono color, but so is hoof.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
And if you were ramping every other turn with crucible and myriad, and having coffers, yeah that's ramping hard holy *****.
This is a fluky play that relied on everything that happened in the course of the game. This is how magic is supposed to work. Your anecdote is actually going against your argument.
You are usually really reasonable and have even approached this topic reasonably for the most part, but this card seems like a major blind spot for you.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I personally don't care if hoof stays or goes, but it's a bit disingenuous to say that it can't be abused with reanimation while also saying that PT is overcentralizing because of that. You only need 5-ish creatures to make it lethal, that makes it a pretty juicy target.
Because you need a solid board-state to do anything worthwhile with hoof, whereas your board-state doesn't matter at all with PrimeTime and will generally always be the best choice to copy or revive.
Additionally: hoof is far less likely to stick around and create a grab the hoof mini game even if everyone can take advantage of it, because hoof is usually cast only after the caster believes it will win the game, so if Hoof resolves it's either ending the game or, if it doesn't, a poor target for theft as it's then just a 5/5. It's a crappy bribery target for control decks. It's a crappy reanimation target unless you have the right board (if, in USBs story, the hoof was in the yard before the Avenger, he would not have grabbed hoof, because it would have been a crappy target. It would have been a 5/5 if he grabbed it on the end of his opponents turn, or +4/+4 and trample to geth and gisa/geralf if he got it on his turn).
Prime Time and Prophet are always great options to steal, always great to grab with bribery, always great to hit with desertion and similar, always great to reanimate. This is the factor that makes then centralizing.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!