Recurring Nightmare - It's "just" a recurring reanimation spell. The quality of removal and graveyard hate has gone up significantly since this was originally printed, and Wheel effects have become much more commonplace as well. This means that every color now has access to plentiful ways to interact with it: Green and Black get rid of its targets, White exiles creatures so they have no fodder for it (or just Rest in Peaces), Blue counters it, and Red can wheel it away. And that's on top of Relic of Progenitus and other solid colorless answers.
Panoptic Mirror - While it's a game-ender with Time Magic, that's an obvious two-card combo and incredibly slow; the whole table gets a chance to interact before it can go off. It's a pain in the ass with Armageddon, but not really that much worse than... just casting Armageddon in the first place - it's either going to end the game basically immediately, or it was a griefer Geddon and shouldn't have been cast in the first place. Wrath on a Mirror locks the board out from creatures, but there's literally dozens of two-card combos that do that. Ultimately, unless you're Time Magic Comboing, it's *glacially* slow. If it survives a single turn around the entire board, you get to color-filter one spell from your hand. Survive a second turn around the entire board and it let you Sins of the Past a spell. It needs to make it around the entire board a third time before it really starts generating you appreciable value.
Painter's Servant - Two combos are generally cited for why PS is banned: Grindstone and Iona, Shield of Emeria. Grindstone Combo is honestly not worth banning a card over, IMO. It's a slow, two-card combo that kills one person per round, and only if that person doesn't pack Eldrazi titans or other reshuffle effects. When the similar Helm of Obedience/Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void combo is legal, that doesn't seem particularly scary. Iona is a bigger problem, but Iona is a problem on her own and should probably be banned for completely shutting down people from playing the game even without PS's assistance. All is Dust and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon get brought up on occasion too, but that interaction isn't any more degenerate than Mycosynth Lattice + literally dozens of cards.
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Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary would be my pick.
Mostly because of the somewhat similar Selvala, Heart of the Wilds that is legal.
While often coming a turn later and arguably being less persistent, she can be way more explosive than him if built around and comes with her own card advantage engine.
Considering the already somewhat high price (for a card that sees no play anywhere), I could see Rofellos becoming quite expensive if an unban ever happens. Even in the unlikely scenario of an return of the banned-as-commander rule.
I feel that either Rofellos needs to be unbanned or Selvala gets banned. My Selvala deck is far more explosive than any Rofellos deck I've seen. It isn't uncommon for me to play Selvala T2, drop a 5/5 4 drop T3, and then go infinite by T4-5.
I do think Painter's Servant has a resonable chance to be unbanned. Especially since the RC's updated phiosophy document mentions several times that they do not intentionally ban cards due to two-card combinations.
I wouldn't expect it to be next update. Let's see how the Protean Hulk unban works out. However, if Hulk isn't a problem card. The RC should go back and look at the ancient era bans and reevaluate them, which includes Painter's Servant.
I feel that either Rofellos needs to be unbanned or Selvala gets banned. My Selvala deck is far more explosive than any Rofellos deck I've seen. It isn't uncommon for me to play Selvala T2, drop a 5/5 4 drop T3, and then go infinite by T4-5.
This is much more of a reason to ban Selvala than it is to unban Rofellos. The big difference of Rofellos costing 2 versus 3 for Selvala is probably the only thing keeping Selvala from being banned, but it occupies the same combo space that Rofellos does.
If I were to pick a top contender for unbanning, it would be Gifts Ungiven. The RC has shown their willingness to let go of cards that are banned strictly for combo potential when that combo potential isn't necessarily enabling lockout situations (as opposed to the stance on Painter's Servant or Wishes). Unbanning Protean Hulk and Staff of Domination show a gradual shift in that mentality (at least in my eyes; what the RC actually thinks is purely conjecture). I believe that unbanning Gifts would continue to bring the banned list into line with the stated Commander Format Philosophy, as Gifts meets the criterion of "Creates Undesirable Game States - cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere" no more than Protean Hulk. It's main problems of low mana cost, Instant speed, and being blue are still significant hurdles, but I think that if the Protean Hulk unbanning goes well then Gifts has a shot.
My second contender would be Recurring Nightmare. Granted it is a difficult card to interact with, but as the Protean Hulk unbanning statement says "Back when Protean Hulk was banned, both creatures and graveyard control were nowhere near as strong as they are today". I think that with graveyard control being stronger, more widespread, and accepted among casual playgroups, a card like Recurring Nightmare would not be centralizing or dominating games.
Painter's Servant - Two combos are generally cited for why PS is banned: Grindstone and Iona, Shield of Emeria. Grindstone Combo is honestly not worth banning a card over, IMO. It's a slow, two-card combo that kills one person per round, and only if that person doesn't pack Eldrazi titans or other reshuffle effects. When the similar Helm of Obedience/Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void combo is legal, that doesn't seem particularly scary. Iona is a bigger problem, but Iona is a problem on her own and should probably be banned for completely shutting down people from playing the game even without PS's assistance. All is Dust and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon get brought up on occasion too, but that interaction isn't any more degenerate than Mycosynth Lattice + literally dozens of cards.
I'd love for Painter's Servant to swap places on the banlist with Iona. It's a lot broader of a card.
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I feel that either Rofellos needs to be unbanned or Selvala gets banned. My Selvala deck is far more explosive than any Rofellos deck I've seen. It isn't uncommon for me to play Selvala T2, drop a 5/5 4 drop T3, and then go infinite by T4-5.
T2 Selvala requires some kind of ramp. Even if we assume you've got a Llanowar Elves-equivalent in your opening hand every game, that's 5 mana T3, while Rofellos is a turn ahead of you with no ramp at all (6 mana T3).
Selvala scales faster in the general non-infinite case, but that scaling is hardly necessary for going infinite; tapping for 4 is sufficient to win off Staff of Domination, and Rofellos does that with just himself, forests, and Staff on T4. Selvala needs a 5 power creature to do the same (since she costs 1 to activate).
Selvala does survive slightly better with +0/+2 over Rofellos, and sometimes turns your creatures into cantrips, but if we're talking about winning the game by turn 5, I don't think she's more explosive than Rofellos.
I do think Painter's Servant has a resonable chance to be unbanned. Especially since the RC's updated phiosophy document mentions several times that they do not intentionally ban cards due to two-card combinations.
I wouldn't expect it to be next update. Let's see how the Protean Hulk unban works out. However, if Hulk isn't a problem card. The RC should go back and look at the ancient era bans and reevaluate them, which includes Painter's Servant.
We actually do an exercise at each meeting where we assume we're going to unban a card and then argue to support it. It's healthy for us and for the format to constantly re-evaluate things, since environments change. "Ancient era" cards are the most-often discussed.
I agree with the suggestions Wildfire mentioned except Recurring Nightmare. It simply does too much and is more or less the only spell you play ever again in a game.
If you keep doing that you ain't playing Magic IMO.
I do think Painter's Servant has a resonable chance to be unbanned. Especially since the RC's updated phiosophy document mentions several times that they do not intentionally ban cards due to two-card combinations.
I wouldn't expect it to be next update. Let's see how the Protean Hulk unban works out. However, if Hulk isn't a problem card. The RC should go back and look at the ancient era bans and reevaluate them, which includes Painter's Servant.
We actually do an exercise at each meeting where we assume we're going to unban a card and then argue to support it. It's healthy for us and for the format to constantly re-evaluate things, since environments change. "Ancient era" cards are the most-often discussed.
May I ask why you guys decided servant is banworthy, is it purely because of combos or is because it messes with color identity?
If its the first one, I really think Iona (if thats the main culprit) should be on the list instead, its much more narrow and that narrow use isnt something people are fond of, while servant has a ton of cool interactions.
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Servant does have cool interactions. It can also casually wreck games. First off, I'll tell you Servant is definitely a borderline card. It's no Balance, after all. The problem with it is that it can only get worse, never better--like when cards such as Ugin show up.
Servant does have cool interactions. It can also casually wreck games. First off, I'll tell you Servant is definitely a borderline card. It's no Balance, after all. The problem with it is that it can only get worse, never better--like when cards such as Ugin show up.
Yeah, in theory it can only get worse, but in all the years since Commander took off it hasn't actually gotten much worse. With all the Commander players at Wizards, there's unlikely to actually be any more brutal stuff like Iona. That card was already designed and developed before the format really started taking off. Is there actually much reason other than conjecture that it's likely to get worse? Color hosing has basically been cut from the game design. Intimidate, landwalk, and even cards like Celestial Purge have been cut for the last few years now. Probably the worst we'll actually see is something like a black card that makes all opponents lose one or two life for each black permanent you control. That would be able to end the game but not until pretty late after you've amassed a bunch of resources and it's interactive. If players are expected to pack instant removal, killing a 1/3 in response isn't the end of the world.
Servant does have cool interactions. It can also casually wreck games. First off, I'll tell you Servant is definitely a borderline card. It's no Balance, after all. The problem with it is that it can only get worse, never better--like when cards such as Ugin show up.
Nah, I think Wizards is still in the business of printing cards with cool interactions, like Marang River Prowler (which was printed after Ugin).
"It can only get worse, never better." Isn't this ture of all the cards in magic? We get hundreds of new cards a year, every so often one of them will make a current card 'worse', in that it creates a more negative experience and/or a less fun game.
Servant does have cool interactions. It can also casually wreck games. First off, I'll tell you Servant is definitely a borderline card. It's no Balance, after all. The problem with it is that it can only get worse, never better--like when cards such as Ugin show up.
Isn't this the exact same problem with Mycosynth Lattice and Enchanted Evening? Both have cool interactions, but they also interact poorly with fairly commonly played cards like Vandalblast or Fracturing Gust. Both Lattice and Enchanted are only going to get worse as more and more artifact/enchantment removal is printed. As far as I know, neither card has been seriously discussed as ban worthy. Why is Painter's Servant the only one being held hostage by inadvertent interactions?
Of the current banned list, I think there is still a little wiggle room with a few cards at this time:
Gifts Ungiven - The reasons that Hermit Druid continues unbanned is a lot of why this card could be unbanned. Essentially the exact same deck that would fairly play Hermit Druid would probably also consider this card. With most cards its about what you plan to do with them.
Library of Alexandria - I think at this point the thing keeping this card on the banned list is its scarcity as well as the fear that it makes commander pay to play. This can go in any deck and it may create a rift in casual or new players and those able to obtain cards like this. Honestly at this point its price tag is high enough I dont really feel it would make any waves. Its sort of like those able to pay for a Mishra's Workshop in my mind.
Painter's Servant honestly the reasons keeping it banned seem kind of silly to me. Its a combo potential card and the number of cards that interact poorly with it are not super common among casual / newer players. Its also kind of hard to set up its combo cards. Its interaction with Iona is probably the easiest to set up and many people for a good while have asked why Iona is a legal card when its primarily the offender. Painter's interaction with Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is unfortunate but its not as if any casual player is going to accidentally put the two together. Its really hard to assemble an 8 mana planeswalker with a 3 mana creature also. Grindstone being the final card but its also really not that great.
Panoptic Mirror - from the perspective of the combo capabilities of it, its super weak. I think the reason its still on the banned list is that most anything cast every turn just sounds annoying. Wraths and turns being the most breaking but I cant think of many things worth putting on it that would not be obnoxious. This card is not really fun or good so its probably fine to stay on. I dont really expect it to come off but it probably could. Either way.... no big loss.
Recurring Nightmare - honestly, creatures have gotten better so good recursive recursion is a problem. While I think time did make Hulk and Koko manageable I dont think the same can be said about this card. In a lot of ways recursion has been scaled back in more recent years so I actually think this probably does need to stay where it is.
Tolarian Academy - I think the change away from partial paris mulligans has made opening hands less powerful. This is obviously a strong land still but I think you need to be heavily invested to really make it work. This one is controversial, but honestly where its more of an issue is with the consistency of 60 card decks. It got banned due to how fast of starts it gives but I think its actually weaker now than when it got banned due to the change in mulligans.
Yawgmoth's Bargain - its not a card really discussed but honestly I dont really see what the issue with it is. I know it can be used to draw to combo but you are talking 6 mana to draw. Tutors can do the same more precisely for less mana. I just dont really see the issue with this card but say that Necropotence is acceptable.
Of the ones I mentioned... I think that Painter's Servant and Gifts Ungiven are probably the highest chance of being removed. This is not to say they will be, but as things stand I think they are the most likely candidates to be considered.
Of the current banned list, I think there is still a little wiggle room with a few cards at this time:
...
Yawgmoth's Bargain - its not a card really discussed but honestly I dont really see what the issue with it is. I know it can be used to draw to combo but you are talking 6 mana to draw. Tutors can do the same more precisely for less mana. I just dont really see the issue with this card but say that Necropotence is acceptable.
...
I think the big difference between Yawgbar and Necro is when you get the cards. Yawgbar giving them immediately means you have TREMENDOUS card advantage, whereas Necro requires timing and planning, as opposed to "In response..."
Gifts Ungiven and Painter's Servant seem to be the ones most likely to be unbanned. PS could stay banned based on its weird rules interaction and Commander being a format that cares about color identity, but since we are now allowed to make other colours of mana, I think it's okay.
Nightmare, to me, seems to have gotten more powerful with time, and willn ot be unbanned. Rofellos and Braids would be unbanned if they brought back Banned as Commander list.
Panoptic Mirror is really slow, and I don't really like it on the banned list. I guess that it is very broken in more casual games, which makes it a poor choice to be unbanned.
Yawg Bargain is disgusting. In the same vein, I feel like Ad Nauseum could be banned, though it is a one-time effect. Getting all the cards right away is a bit silly. At 40 life, you don't need to combo it with anything in order to get a win.
Tolarian Academy... I don't like that this is banned but Serra's Sanctum and Gaea's Cradle are not banned. That being said, I've never seen a game where any of these cards were fair, and I don't believe they should be in the format. The fact that there are 6 artifact lands probably makes this too good for commander.
I think the big difference between Yawgbar and Necro is when you get the cards. Yawgbar giving them immediately means you have TREMENDOUS card advantage, whereas Necro requires timing and planning, as opposed to "In response..."
It seems a little moot to me to be honest. Yea sure there is a difference between having them right now vs for next turn or as an instant but there is also a difference between 3 and 6 mana. You can play Necro faster as well as put down necro and have responses up much better.
Outside of being a combo deck, the lower cost of necro may in fact be better. If I am just playing a grindy attrition deck all I care is to draw cards and when you look at things like Sun Titan / Yawgmoth's Will to recover these two cards I would often rather have Necropotence.
My argument is more that I dont really see as much difference between the two cards. In some cases I think Necropotence may even be better due to being cheaper to cast. It obviously depends on your deck to some extent but if you have the option of having either card in your opener you could just as easily drop Necro sooner and find tutors for the follow up turn to assemble and execute that combo that you would have later dug for with Yawgmoth's Bargain. Due to all of the tutors in the format as well as being a black card to start with honestly, I think its really over hyped the differences between the two cards.
I think you can take this as both why I think Yawgmoth's Bargain isn't as bad as its hyped to be as well as a comment that Necropotence is gross. I just dont see a lot of difference between the two to be honest.
I actually argued for unbanning Coalition Victory, Sway of the Stars, Worldfire, and Biorhythm. I dont' think they add anything to the format but banning them isn't particularly useful since they aren't likely to see significant amounts of play. They cost way too much mana and effort to be actually decent combo cards.
And now Protean hulk is the next heir in line of that because now that's unbanned.
in your opinion could there be any other cards that could get unbanned eventually.
The most likely culprits are probably:
Recurring Nightmare - It's "just" a recurring reanimation spell. The quality of removal and graveyard hate has gone up significantly since this was originally printed, and Wheel effects have become much more commonplace as well. This means that every color now has access to plentiful ways to interact with it: Green and Black get rid of its targets, White exiles creatures so they have no fodder for it (or just Rest in Peaces), Blue counters it, and Red can wheel it away. And that's on top of Relic of Progenitus and other solid colorless answers.
Panoptic Mirror - While it's a game-ender with Time Magic, that's an obvious two-card combo and incredibly slow; the whole table gets a chance to interact before it can go off. It's a pain in the ass with Armageddon, but not really that much worse than... just casting Armageddon in the first place - it's either going to end the game basically immediately, or it was a griefer Geddon and shouldn't have been cast in the first place. Wrath on a Mirror locks the board out from creatures, but there's literally dozens of two-card combos that do that. Ultimately, unless you're Time Magic Comboing, it's *glacially* slow. If it survives a single turn around the entire board, you get to color-filter one spell from your hand. Survive a second turn around the entire board and it let you Sins of the Past a spell. It needs to make it around the entire board a third time before it really starts generating you appreciable value.
Painter's Servant - Two combos are generally cited for why PS is banned: Grindstone and Iona, Shield of Emeria. Grindstone Combo is honestly not worth banning a card over, IMO. It's a slow, two-card combo that kills one person per round, and only if that person doesn't pack Eldrazi titans or other reshuffle effects. When the similar Helm of Obedience/Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void combo is legal, that doesn't seem particularly scary. Iona is a bigger problem, but Iona is a problem on her own and should probably be banned for completely shutting down people from playing the game even without PS's assistance. All is Dust and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon get brought up on occasion too, but that interaction isn't any more degenerate than Mycosynth Lattice + literally dozens of cards.
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protean hulk may have given gifts Ungiven a chance but I doubt it though.
I feel that either Rofellos needs to be unbanned or Selvala gets banned. My Selvala deck is far more explosive than any Rofellos deck I've seen. It isn't uncommon for me to play Selvala T2, drop a 5/5 4 drop T3, and then go infinite by T4-5.
I wouldn't expect it to be next update. Let's see how the Protean Hulk unban works out. However, if Hulk isn't a problem card. The RC should go back and look at the ancient era bans and reevaluate them, which includes Painter's Servant.
This is much more of a reason to ban Selvala than it is to unban Rofellos. The big difference of Rofellos costing 2 versus 3 for Selvala is probably the only thing keeping Selvala from being banned, but it occupies the same combo space that Rofellos does.
If I were to pick a top contender for unbanning, it would be Gifts Ungiven. The RC has shown their willingness to let go of cards that are banned strictly for combo potential when that combo potential isn't necessarily enabling lockout situations (as opposed to the stance on Painter's Servant or Wishes). Unbanning Protean Hulk and Staff of Domination show a gradual shift in that mentality (at least in my eyes; what the RC actually thinks is purely conjecture). I believe that unbanning Gifts would continue to bring the banned list into line with the stated Commander Format Philosophy, as Gifts meets the criterion of "Creates Undesirable Game States - cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere" no more than Protean Hulk. It's main problems of low mana cost, Instant speed, and being blue are still significant hurdles, but I think that if the Protean Hulk unbanning goes well then Gifts has a shot.
My second contender would be Recurring Nightmare. Granted it is a difficult card to interact with, but as the Protean Hulk unbanning statement says "Back when Protean Hulk was banned, both creatures and graveyard control were nowhere near as strong as they are today". I think that with graveyard control being stronger, more widespread, and accepted among casual playgroups, a card like Recurring Nightmare would not be centralizing or dominating games.
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I'd love for Painter's Servant to swap places on the banlist with Iona. It's a lot broader of a card.
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Selvala scales faster in the general non-infinite case, but that scaling is hardly necessary for going infinite; tapping for 4 is sufficient to win off Staff of Domination, and Rofellos does that with just himself, forests, and Staff on T4. Selvala needs a 5 power creature to do the same (since she costs 1 to activate).
Selvala does survive slightly better with +0/+2 over Rofellos, and sometimes turns your creatures into cantrips, but if we're talking about winning the game by turn 5, I don't think she's more explosive than Rofellos.
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We actually do an exercise at each meeting where we assume we're going to unban a card and then argue to support it. It's healthy for us and for the format to constantly re-evaluate things, since environments change. "Ancient era" cards are the most-often discussed.
If you keep doing that you ain't playing Magic IMO.
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May I ask why you guys decided servant is banworthy, is it purely because of combos or is because it messes with color identity?
If its the first one, I really think Iona (if thats the main culprit) should be on the list instead, its much more narrow and that narrow use isnt something people are fond of, while servant has a ton of cool interactions.
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Armageddon has gotten worse, with the printing of cards like Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Faith's Reward
Mycosynth Lattice has gotten worse, because of Vandalblast, Stony Silence, and Hellkite Tyrant.
Living Plane gets worse with cards like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Linvala, Keeper of Silence..
Those are some of the cards that are just growing slowly worse.
Palinchron gets a new mana doubler every few sets.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker gets a new card that it goes infinite with even more frequently.
Of the ones I mentioned... I think that Painter's Servant and Gifts Ungiven are probably the highest chance of being removed. This is not to say they will be, but as things stand I think they are the most likely candidates to be considered.
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I think the big difference between Yawgbar and Necro is when you get the cards. Yawgbar giving them immediately means you have TREMENDOUS card advantage, whereas Necro requires timing and planning, as opposed to "In response..."
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Nightmare, to me, seems to have gotten more powerful with time, and willn ot be unbanned. Rofellos and Braids would be unbanned if they brought back Banned as Commander list.
Panoptic Mirror is really slow, and I don't really like it on the banned list. I guess that it is very broken in more casual games, which makes it a poor choice to be unbanned.
Yawg Bargain is disgusting. In the same vein, I feel like Ad Nauseum could be banned, though it is a one-time effect. Getting all the cards right away is a bit silly. At 40 life, you don't need to combo it with anything in order to get a win.
Tolarian Academy... I don't like that this is banned but Serra's Sanctum and Gaea's Cradle are not banned. That being said, I've never seen a game where any of these cards were fair, and I don't believe they should be in the format. The fact that there are 6 artifact lands probably makes this too good for commander.
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It seems a little moot to me to be honest. Yea sure there is a difference between having them right now vs for next turn or as an instant but there is also a difference between 3 and 6 mana. You can play Necro faster as well as put down necro and have responses up much better.
Outside of being a combo deck, the lower cost of necro may in fact be better. If I am just playing a grindy attrition deck all I care is to draw cards and when you look at things like Sun Titan / Yawgmoth's Will to recover these two cards I would often rather have Necropotence.
My argument is more that I dont really see as much difference between the two cards. In some cases I think Necropotence may even be better due to being cheaper to cast. It obviously depends on your deck to some extent but if you have the option of having either card in your opener you could just as easily drop Necro sooner and find tutors for the follow up turn to assemble and execute that combo that you would have later dug for with Yawgmoth's Bargain. Due to all of the tutors in the format as well as being a black card to start with honestly, I think its really over hyped the differences between the two cards.
I think you can take this as both why I think Yawgmoth's Bargain isn't as bad as its hyped to be as well as a comment that Necropotence is gross. I just dont see a lot of difference between the two to be honest.
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Maybe even Painter's Servant.
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All you need is prismatic omen and one of these out for a instant win and it's pretty ways to get lands of all basic land types in edh.