Exactly. Which is why I find it confusing that people try to use that as a debating point. Once you reach like over 5000 unique cards for each color, I'm not so sure if people can try to "seek color balance". C'mon.
Leave color balancing to Wizards IMO. Power balancing of choice cards? Yes we can debate on that.
Exactly. Which is why I find it confusing that people try to use that as a debating point. Once you reach like over 5000 unique cards for each color, I'm not so sure if people can try to "seek color balance". C'mon.
Leave color balancing to Wizards IMO. Power balancing of choice cards? Yes we can debate on that.
And I agree, thus my point about blue being 'inherently better' is subjective and not a true basis to argue this on. I think there is some merit in 'artifacts are easier than creatures' in general, but in terms of effecting the early game I don't believe so - there are so many 1 drop creatures that are good and commonplace in this format.
Exactly. Which is why I find it confusing that people try to use that as a debating point. Once you reach like over 5000 unique cards for each color, I'm not so sure if people can try to "seek color balance". C'mon.
Leave color balancing to Wizards IMO. Power balancing of choice cards? Yes we can debate on that.
And I agree, thus my point about blue being 'inherently better' is subjective and not a true basis to argue this on. I think there is some merit in 'artifacts are easier than creatures' in general, but in terms of effecting the early game I don't believe so - there are so many 1 drop creatures that are good and commonplace in this format.
The lack of mana ramp in blue is just part of the color pie. just like red cant draw as many cards or has few ways of destroy a enchantment. Black cant destroy a enchantment or artifact. The cards that go against the color identity need to be looked at for what they are. If you believe 6 green mana early is no different then 6 blue mana early then this thread losses all credibility.
Exactly. Which is why I find it confusing that people try to use that as a debating point. Once you reach like over 5000 unique cards for each color, I'm not so sure if people can try to "seek color balance". C'mon.
Leave color balancing to Wizards IMO. Power balancing of choice cards? Yes we can debate on that.
And I agree, thus my point about blue being 'inherently better' is subjective and not a true basis to argue this on. I think there is some merit in 'artifacts are easier than creatures' in general, but in terms of effecting the early game I don't believe so - there are so many 1 drop creatures that are good and commonplace in this format.
The lack of mana ramp in blue is just part of the color pie. just like red cant draw as many cards or has few ways of destroy a enchantment. Black cant destroy a enchantment or artifact. The cards that go against the color identity need to be looked at for what they are. If you believe 6 green mana early is no different then 6 blue mana early then this thread losses all credibility.
I do believe the difference between 6 U and 6 G are irrelevant in the early game because a majority of the time you only need 1 or 2 for the spell you cast and the rest is colorless. A majority of time, all you care about with either card is getting your overall converted mana cost capability higher, not color fixing. Example to the point: Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch - I want to cast these ASAP and take major advantage off them, but it doesn't take much color commitment to do it - the majority is the colorless component.
The only time it will matter is if you're color screwed out of that color, which is a very low portion of times.
Why is Academy banned but not Gaea's Cradle. In the long run Cradle is just as bad. A deck that can push out a lot of low CMC creatures, some of which are even mana ramping creatures themselves, in GREEN!
Yea that turn 3 Tooth and Nail entwined sounds so fun.
Granted this is not how it always plays out but it is still really easy to get the mana. Green already has ramp but to give them Gaea's cradle is foolish.
Anyway that is just one of the three cards I want banned. Derevi and Tooth and Nail are the other 2.
"In the long run" is the key to the sentence. Cradle only creates that kind of mana early in dream hands. Academy does it all the time. Cradle has the opportunity to create way more mana than Academy does, but the when is important. Academy makes it too early for our tastes.
"In the long run" is the key to the sentence. Cradle only creates that kind of mana early in dream hands. Academy does it all the time. Cradle has the opportunity to create way more mana than Academy does, but the when is important. Academy makes it too early for our tastes.
Well you are arguing that creatures vs artifacts. Academy at least allows blue decks to ramp, but for it to be teh most effective to dedicate a percentage of their deck to it. In mas artifacts decks it is quite a different story but artifact decks already are fine with man usually as mana rocks hep them immensely.
Mass token decks are even worse when it comes to Gaea's cradle. (I tested a proxy gaea's cradle in my thromok deck and i was producing 100+ mana each turn form that alone.) I still feel that Academy is on par. Sol ring, mana vault, mana crypt, all legal (crypt should be banned) but academy is not which i find truly unfair. (Then again, i guess I would end up seeing used in a breya deck and hate playing MTG all over again.)
Also can i ask why you ave the list early for the bans I thought it was suppose to be 5 weeks after the release of the new set. (I also want to know why Derevi and tooth are still not banned but that is for this thread)
Since the time that Academy was banned we have gone away from partial Paris mulligans. I feel it could be worth questioning how consistent of hands you really plan to get to have a good Academy start given the current rules on mulligans. In the past I could see it being justifiable but honestly at this point I just dont see the "god" hands of old assembling under the new mulligan rules of commander.
I know its "possible" that you could get like 3+ mana from Academy in the early game. I just think its extremely less likely now then when the card was banned. I have never really seen Academy in a game of commander as its been banned for a bit now and it really belongs in a very specific deck. I just cant help feeling that it has lost some of its power with the change of mulligans.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
ISB, your point is valid. Partial Paris let you increase the average quantity of a specific type of card in your opening hand, compared to the standard mulligan. This has a direct effect on the potency of Academy in the early game; the same decks will find fewer cheap artifacts in the early turns to power their Academies.
I do not feel as strongly about Academy as I do certain other cards on the ban list, but I still believe the Academy ban is collateral damage from the presence of certain controversial artifacts.
Bonus question: Can anyone give a realistic example of Academy tapping for problematic amounts, without resorting to fast mana?
My hunch is that if you are playing fair, Academy is both slower than Gaea's Cradle and less reliable than Urborg-Coffers.
ISB, your point is valid. Partial Paris let you increase the average quantity of a specific type of card in your opening hand, compared to the standard mulligan. This has a direct effect on the potency of Academy in the early game; the same decks will find fewer cheap artifacts in the early turns to power their Academies.
I do not feel as strongly about Academy as I do certain other cards on the ban list, but I still believe the Academy ban is collateral damage from the presence of certain controversial artifacts.
Bonus question: Can anyone give a realistic example of Academy tapping for problematic amounts, without resorting to fast mana?
My hunch is that if you are playing fair, Academy is both slower than Gaea's Cradle and less reliable than Urborg-Coffers.
I didn't get exactly into specific hands, but I did a generic percentage on the likelihood of being able to hit high amounts of mana early.
I appreciated Sheldon's input a couple posts back, but frankly I disagree entirely on his point and I don't think the statistics support his statement - cramming low cost creatures can turn into big creatures very easily off the backs of the numerous Overrun-type cards and the ramp Cradle provides ensures you can smash someone extremely quickly. In my experiences, I get so much value out of an early Gaea's Cradle in my Selvala, Explorer Returned deck due to the numerous 1 and 2 drop creatures the deck runs, which I don't consider to be 'God Hands'. A T3 tap for 3 G is not uncommon or unheard of to do for my deck.
Where the argument has some vague validity is in leveraging U mana is more 'deadly/broken/unfair' than the same amount of G mana on the same turn. But if that was a true component of the banning, I would think it would need to be addressed in the reasons for bans.
Well you are arguing that creatures vs artifacts. Academy at least allows blue decks to ramp, but for it to be teh most effective to dedicate a percentage of their deck to it. In mas artifacts decks it is quite a different story but artifact decks already are fine with man usually as mana rocks hep them immensely.
Except with just a short glance at Vintage and relevant EDH play, one can see that the artifact deck is significantly more effective in a heartbeat.
Well you are arguing that creatures vs artifacts. Academy at least allows blue decks to ramp, but for it to be teh most effective to dedicate a percentage of their deck to it. In mas artifacts decks it is quite a different story but artifact decks already are fine with man usually as mana rocks hep them immensely.
Except with just a short glance at Vintage and relevant EDH play, one can see that the artifact deck is significantly more effective in a heartbeat.
Maybe I am just far more use to seeing creature heavy decks as opposed to artifact heavy decks. Then again i guess if one is utilizing Gaea's cradle one could simply utilize academy as well.
A quick peak at the top 50 artifacts shows that most are mana rocks, but there are several cheap equipment or card drawers such as Scroll Rack and Skullclamp that could help fuel an academy.
I wanted to circle back to this discussion. I am trying to remember if there was a time that academy was not on the banned list but essentially as far back as I can remember it was. I guess its possible there was a time long ago before I was playing commander that it was legal. Some of the things I wanted to talk about though with this card are:
New Mulligans - Partial paris was a mulligan system that was much more in line with making this card work and work well out of the gates. With having moved to the Vancouver mulligan system this card as well as Metalworker have lost some power in that you can't sculpt opening hands to the same degree that you could previously. You can't dig as deep and you can't maximize hands to the same degree you used to be able to.
Tutors - This card is blue so you need to be playing at least blue in your color identity to run it. I know that you could pick up green or black which would increase the tutors but naturally in blue to my knowledge there is Tolaria West and Expedition Map that can tutor for this (there are more expensive ones like Ring of Three Wishes but they are too slow to be relevant here). You could potentially go down the avenue of tutors for artifact which can get the map which can get this but that's so much mana to go through that I think its probably slow enough that its not really a problem.
Specific Build - this card does require a specific build to really do work. Yes, you could run it in a 10-20 artifact build but lets be realistic this card is one where you really want to be running 30-60+ artifacts to really make it worth running.
Complexity - For this card to be good you really need to get it and 2+ artifacts in play by turns 2-3. Even at that point its mostly a colored mana
Ancient Tomb. What we like to really think about as the completely nuts situations for this card is when you can put 3+ artifacts into play on turns 1-2 with it but at which point we are talking about 4 or more VERY specific cards in an opening hand. Sure you could load a deck full of every 0 mana artifact that exists to try to do this but lets be honest you will get a lot of bad starts with that kind of deck. If you want to talk about the most competative combo decks using every fast mana in existence then this is also outside of the scope of the banned list. The complexity to having broken mana fast with this card plus something to dump it into to use is very complex and unlikely to happen fast enough that its a problem.
My point here is a little bit of questioning this card from the standpoint that I have never seen it played in commander as well as a lot of the reasons that it was banned originally seem like the change to mulligan rules alleviate. There are still commanders and situations I can figure out where it seems like it could be good primarily doing some sort of odd artifact build of Thrasios, Triton Hero but lets be honest here in that most well constructed Thrasios builds don't really fall into the scope of what the banned list is designed for. The reasons this card was banned was primarily due to how much mana it can make quickly but you still need a payoff to dump said mana into as well as designing the deck in such a way to make it set up extremely quickly.
I remember Metalworker getting unbanned and literally I played it in one deck ever and have never seen it played against me to date. In a lot of regards Academy reminds me of that card in that both have a lot of similarities. Its potentially strong in a very well constructed expensive combo deck but I still kind of question the consistency of it there given the new mulligan system.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Academy would be a snap inclusion in the many competitive EDH decks that are already running 15-20 artifacts. Is it too good for the format? Probably not, but it'd be a notable power boost. It's somewhat scarier than Cradle for casual games just because of the absurd early turns it can enable.
Being in blue, I don't think you need much more than 30 artifacts to make it go nuts, because of the quality of available card draw and selection to ensure you hit your artifacts more often than your deck ratio would suggest. It should consistently be worth it if your running 20 (as in, consistently produce 2-3 Mana early) while occasionally hitting 4-5 early, while once you hit 30 you should be banking on it. And having then in play is a wash to me compared to metalworker, as while you do have to play them first it let's its power snowball, and it does so very early. Turn 1 seat of the synod an sol ring into turn 2 academy and top into a 5 drop sets up academy tapping for 4 turn 3 with you dropping 7 or 8 drops depending on what you cast turn 2. If it was a couple smaller artifacts instead of a 5 drop, even more.
The only limiting factor for me concerning TA is that it does require building around, but not nearly as much as metalworker. Drop it into an average deck and it will very rarely be dead and typically be an ancient tomb that taps for blue and doesn't hurt you. That would make it one of the best lands in the format on its own. In any deck with an artifact theme it goes nuts.
I also think that being a land makes it more dangerous. Lands are harder to answer than creatures and are free to play and can have an immediate effect. If I drop Academy turn 2 it's likely paying for something and will likely be around next turn to do more work. If I drop metalworker turn 2 it has to survive the round before it does anything and can easily eat common artifact or creature removal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Personally, I think unbanning Metalworker was a bit of a mistake, but unbanning the Academy would be vastly worse, because it is a lot easily to completely break TA than it is Metalworker. Onering's points are spot-on.
This could produce obscene amounts of mana in my Jhoira deck if it came down early, and even though my Brudiclad and Rashmi decks aren't quite optimized for it, it would still be easily the best land in either of those decks.
Being in blue, I don't think you need much more than 30 artifacts to make it go nuts, because of the quality of available card draw and selection to ensure you hit your artifacts more often than your deck ratio would suggest. It should consistently be worth it if your running 20 (as in, consistently produce 2-3 Mana early) while occasionally hitting 4-5 early, while once you hit 30 you should be banking on it. And having then in play is a wash to me compared to metalworker, as while you do have to play them first it let's its power snowball, and it does so very early. Turn 1 seat of the synod an sol ring into turn 2 academy and top into a 5 drop sets up academy tapping for 4 turn 3 with you dropping 7 or 8 drops depending on what you cast turn 2. If it was a couple smaller artifacts instead of a 5 drop, even more.
The only limiting factor for me concerning TA is that it does require building around, but not nearly as much as metalworker. Drop it into an average deck and it will very rarely be dead and typically be an ancient tomb that taps for blue and doesn't hurt you. That would make it one of the best lands in the format on its own. In any deck with an artifact theme it goes nuts.
I also think that being a land makes it more dangerous. Lands are harder to answer than creatures and are free to play and can have an immediate effect. If I drop Academy turn 2 it's likely paying for something and will likely be around next turn to do more work. If I drop metalworker turn 2 it has to survive the round before it does anything and can easily eat common artifact or creature removal.
At 20 artifacts an average 7 card hand will have 1.4 artifacts and this is assuming all of your artifacts are early game cheap artifacts that will be online very quickly. Even if you run a good artifact package its not to say that every artifact is 0-2 mana. Again, this delves very deeply into CEDH as far as low curves and high density counts of cheap artifacts.
My interest in this card is almost entirely from the standpoint that this card really doesn't seem like it would even be a thing in decks that aren't geared to be competitive. It has a lot of hoops to jump through and it would be narrow in where it would be used. It being in your average deck is not where its going to be banworthy. Sure it might produce a few mana but the question is how quickly it comes online for a few mana. Being a land that produces a single blue mana isn't why its banned. If it can produce 3 mana on turn 6+ its not banworthy.
Personally, I think unbanning Metalworker was a bit of a mistake, but unbanning the Academy would be vastly worse, because it is a lot easily to completely break TA than it is Metalworker. Onering's points are spot-on.
This could produce obscene amounts of mana in my Jhoira deck if it came down early, and even though my Brudiclad and Rashmi decks aren't quite optimized for it, it would still be easily the best land in either of those decks.
I am interested to see and hear about the decks and problems metalworker has been for you. I played it in a colorless Kozilek deck and to be honest.... it really wasn't even that good in my mind. It literally lost almost all of its value if drawn off curve and had a turn delay in using it not to mention off curve its a lot harder to have a handfull of things to show with it. Its also fragile as all heck. In retrospect something like Thran Dynamo which is similar costed often propelled me much further ahead much faster even though it would cost one more mana just because it immediately almost pays for itself. Also if you ever draw unlucky and find a bunch of lands it would get a lot worse and this isn't even delving into the fact that my experience with it was a full colorless deck which is where its going to be at its strongest.
I guess what I am saying is the kinds of deck where it might do work are often filled with a bunch of ramp already and the turn delay plus it being worse off curve or if you just don't get optimal draws all lead me to the conclusion that its not even that great and this was in a deck where I would suspect its going to be at its best.
My experience with Metalworker in a brown deck is the opposite, because I've seen it almost single handedly cast Kozilek on turn two. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Regarding the difference between Metalworker and Tolarian Academy (and Rofellos to an lesser extent), Metalworker wants you to NOT cast your cards in order to get that huge boost, meaning you ramp hard by not doing anything. The other two tend to reward you for doing what you're already doing, and they reward you with colored mana. So you're still keeping up tempo with the table while ramping.
My experience with Metalworker in a brown deck is the opposite, because I've seen it almost single handedly cast Kozilek on turn two. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Regarding the difference between Metalworker and Tolarian Academy (and Rofellos to an lesser extent), Metalworker wants you to NOT cast your cards in order to get that huge boost, meaning you ramp hard by not doing anything. The other two tend to reward you for doing what you're already doing, and they reward you with colored mana. So you're still keeping up tempo with the table while ramping.
So..... you are saying your experience was Mana Crypt into metalworker turn 1? I mean...... that's almost into magical Christmas land optimal so yea if thats the only way you have seen it used yea it sounds great. I would take that all day. Its just not realistically how you draw it usually. I can't even tell you how many turn 7 metalworker draws I have seen and how completely irrelevant of a card it is then.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
In my Kurkesh deck, if I have Metalworker in my opening hand or draw into it by turn 3, I can usually cast anything in my deck on turn 4, unless someone removes the MW. That has happened a few times, but more often than not it has stuck around for 1-2 turns, which is enough for it to a lot. A couple turns later, I have usually emptied most of my hand, and at that point MW itself is mostly moot, because I usually have a pretty commanding board state.
My perception of MW's dangerousness probably is based on part on the fact that I have played t1 Metalworker off of Mishra's Workshop more than once. That takes sort of a god hand, obviously, but the more typical t3 Metalworker isn't uncommon at all, and is still ridiculously powerful more often than not.
On the other hand, drawing t6 Metalworker is usually pretty bad, but a lot of ramp cards are pretty lame to draw into later in the game.
In my Kurkesh deck, if I have Metalworker in my opening hand or draw into it by turn 3, I can usually cast anything in my deck on turn 4, unless someone removes the MW. That has happened a few times, but more often than not it has stuck around for 1-2 turns, which is enough for it to a lot. A couple turns later, I have usually emptied most of my hand, and at that point MW itself is mostly moot, because I usually have a pretty commanding board state.
My perception of MW's dangerousness probably is based on part on the fact that I have played t1 Metalworker off of Mishra's Workshop more than once. That takes sort of a god hand, obviously, but the more typical t3 Metalworker isn't uncommon at all, and is still ridiculously powerful more often than not.
On the other hand, drawing t6 Metalworker is usually pretty bad, but a lot of ramp cards are pretty lame to draw into later in the game.
Thanks for the insight, I just like to see others point of view of what its doing and what not. Metalworker anywhere off curve is underwhelming and even a T3 can be kind of slow in a lot of cases depending on the deck. That said, I get where you are coming from but I also think that for the most part (back on track) the question with Academy comes down to the question of how fast it can reliably be set up and producing some amount of mana. For the big concerns I would be concerned by the following:
T1: 2+ mana
T2: 2+ mana
T3: 3+ mana
T4: 3+ mana
Beyond those turns I think in a lot of cases you could argue that Cradle can do the same rate of growth or better. I think those numbers are going to be very hard to hit consistently on curve. The big difference between cradle and academy if you ask me are that 1) artifacts can tap for mana the turn they come in 2) zero mana artifacts exist and zero mana creatures mostly don't. On the flip side creatures make tokens and its not that hard to get several bodies / card cast so its really the difference in the first few turns.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
The the other place where Academy and Cradle differ is that people tend to play more creature sweepers than artifact sweepers. Vandalblast is played in almost every red deck, a few others are widely played, but otherwise it's mostly targeted removal. In contrast, pretty much every reasonably efficient creature sweeper, including the various black ones, sees a lot of play. It is more common over the course of a typical EDH game for Cradle to do less than Academy would do, just because it's more typical for all the creatures to be dead than it is for all the artifacts to be dead. Toss in Academy being U and the possibility of countermagic to protect the artifacts as well.
Also, artifact creatures tokens are a thing with Academy. Though neither is exactly optimized for Academy in their current build, I am pretty Academy would be pumping out 4+ mana on its own by turn 4 more often than not in my Brudiclad and Jhoira decks, between artifact lands, artifacts I've cast and thopter-makers.
So..... you are saying your experience was Mana Crypt into metalworker turn 1? I mean...... that's almost into magical Christmas land optimal so yea if thats the only way you have seen it used yea it sounds great. I would take that all day. Its just not realistically how you draw it usually. I can't even tell you how many turn 7 metalworker draws I have seen and how completely irrelevant of a card it is then.
My buddy runs a Kozilek deck that we partner with for 2HG tournaments. He routinely gets it out in the first couple of turns and catapults ahead in mana.
Leave color balancing to Wizards IMO. Power balancing of choice cards? Yes we can debate on that.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
The only time it will matter is if you're color screwed out of that color, which is a very low portion of times.
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Yea that turn 3 Tooth and Nail entwined sounds so fun.
T1: Forest, Llanowar eleves
T2: Forest, Birds of Pradise, Elvish Mystic
T3: Gaea's Cradle, Lotus Petal, tooth and Nail... infinite combo, new game.
Granted this is not how it always plays out but it is still really easy to get the mana. Green already has ramp but to give them Gaea's cradle is foolish.
Anyway that is just one of the three cards I want banned. Derevi and Tooth and Nail are the other 2.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Well you are arguing that creatures vs artifacts. Academy at least allows blue decks to ramp, but for it to be teh most effective to dedicate a percentage of their deck to it. In mas artifacts decks it is quite a different story but artifact decks already are fine with man usually as mana rocks hep them immensely.
Mass token decks are even worse when it comes to Gaea's cradle. (I tested a proxy gaea's cradle in my thromok deck and i was producing 100+ mana each turn form that alone.) I still feel that Academy is on par. Sol ring, mana vault, mana crypt, all legal (crypt should be banned) but academy is not which i find truly unfair. (Then again, i guess I would end up seeing used in a breya deck and hate playing MTG all over again.)
Also can i ask why you ave the list early for the bans I thought it was suppose to be 5 weeks after the release of the new set. (I also want to know why Derevi and tooth are still not banned but that is for this thread)
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I know its "possible" that you could get like 3+ mana from Academy in the early game. I just think its extremely less likely now then when the card was banned. I have never really seen Academy in a game of commander as its been banned for a bit now and it really belongs in a very specific deck. I just cant help feeling that it has lost some of its power with the change of mulligans.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I do not feel as strongly about Academy as I do certain other cards on the ban list, but I still believe the Academy ban is collateral damage from the presence of certain controversial artifacts.
Bonus question: Can anyone give a realistic example of Academy tapping for problematic amounts, without resorting to fast mana?
My hunch is that if you are playing fair, Academy is both slower than Gaea's Cradle and less reliable than Urborg-Coffers.
Draft my Mono-Blue Cube!
lichess.org | chess.com
I appreciated Sheldon's input a couple posts back, but frankly I disagree entirely on his point and I don't think the statistics support his statement - cramming low cost creatures can turn into big creatures very easily off the backs of the numerous Overrun-type cards and the ramp Cradle provides ensures you can smash someone extremely quickly. In my experiences, I get so much value out of an early Gaea's Cradle in my Selvala, Explorer Returned deck due to the numerous 1 and 2 drop creatures the deck runs, which I don't consider to be 'God Hands'. A T3 tap for 3 G is not uncommon or unheard of to do for my deck.
Where the argument has some vague validity is in leveraging U mana is more 'deadly/broken/unfair' than the same amount of G mana on the same turn. But if that was a true component of the banning, I would think it would need to be addressed in the reasons for bans.
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Except with just a short glance at Vintage and relevant EDH play, one can see that the artifact deck is significantly more effective in a heartbeat.
Maybe I am just far more use to seeing creature heavy decks as opposed to artifact heavy decks. Then again i guess if one is utilizing Gaea's cradle one could simply utilize academy as well.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
It's really going to depend on how much mana is being defined as problematic.
A hand with Tormod's Crypt, Sensei's Divining Top, and Lightning Greaves can be tapping for 6 mana on turn 3.
A quick peak at the top 50 artifacts shows that most are mana rocks, but there are several cheap equipment or card drawers such as Scroll Rack and Skullclamp that could help fuel an academy.
My point here is a little bit of questioning this card from the standpoint that I have never seen it played in commander as well as a lot of the reasons that it was banned originally seem like the change to mulligan rules alleviate. There are still commanders and situations I can figure out where it seems like it could be good primarily doing some sort of odd artifact build of Thrasios, Triton Hero but lets be honest here in that most well constructed Thrasios builds don't really fall into the scope of what the banned list is designed for. The reasons this card was banned was primarily due to how much mana it can make quickly but you still need a payoff to dump said mana into as well as designing the deck in such a way to make it set up extremely quickly.
I remember Metalworker getting unbanned and literally I played it in one deck ever and have never seen it played against me to date. In a lot of regards Academy reminds me of that card in that both have a lot of similarities. Its potentially strong in a very well constructed expensive combo deck but I still kind of question the consistency of it there given the new mulligan system.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I've seen Metalworker at least once. It comboed out with Staff of Domination. I have the same combo in my Kozilek, the Great Distortion deck.
The only limiting factor for me concerning TA is that it does require building around, but not nearly as much as metalworker. Drop it into an average deck and it will very rarely be dead and typically be an ancient tomb that taps for blue and doesn't hurt you. That would make it one of the best lands in the format on its own. In any deck with an artifact theme it goes nuts.
I also think that being a land makes it more dangerous. Lands are harder to answer than creatures and are free to play and can have an immediate effect. If I drop Academy turn 2 it's likely paying for something and will likely be around next turn to do more work. If I drop metalworker turn 2 it has to survive the round before it does anything and can easily eat common artifact or creature removal.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
This could produce obscene amounts of mana in my Jhoira deck if it came down early, and even though my Brudiclad and Rashmi decks aren't quite optimized for it, it would still be easily the best land in either of those decks.
At 20 artifacts an average 7 card hand will have 1.4 artifacts and this is assuming all of your artifacts are early game cheap artifacts that will be online very quickly. Even if you run a good artifact package its not to say that every artifact is 0-2 mana. Again, this delves very deeply into CEDH as far as low curves and high density counts of cheap artifacts.
My interest in this card is almost entirely from the standpoint that this card really doesn't seem like it would even be a thing in decks that aren't geared to be competitive. It has a lot of hoops to jump through and it would be narrow in where it would be used. It being in your average deck is not where its going to be banworthy. Sure it might produce a few mana but the question is how quickly it comes online for a few mana. Being a land that produces a single blue mana isn't why its banned. If it can produce 3 mana on turn 6+ its not banworthy.
I am interested to see and hear about the decks and problems metalworker has been for you. I played it in a colorless Kozilek deck and to be honest.... it really wasn't even that good in my mind. It literally lost almost all of its value if drawn off curve and had a turn delay in using it not to mention off curve its a lot harder to have a handfull of things to show with it. Its also fragile as all heck. In retrospect something like Thran Dynamo which is similar costed often propelled me much further ahead much faster even though it would cost one more mana just because it immediately almost pays for itself. Also if you ever draw unlucky and find a bunch of lands it would get a lot worse and this isn't even delving into the fact that my experience with it was a full colorless deck which is where its going to be at its strongest.
I guess what I am saying is the kinds of deck where it might do work are often filled with a bunch of ramp already and the turn delay plus it being worse off curve or if you just don't get optimal draws all lead me to the conclusion that its not even that great and this was in a deck where I would suspect its going to be at its best.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
So..... you are saying your experience was Mana Crypt into metalworker turn 1? I mean...... that's almost into magical Christmas land optimal so yea if thats the only way you have seen it used yea it sounds great. I would take that all day. Its just not realistically how you draw it usually. I can't even tell you how many turn 7 metalworker draws I have seen and how completely irrelevant of a card it is then.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
My perception of MW's dangerousness probably is based on part on the fact that I have played t1 Metalworker off of Mishra's Workshop more than once. That takes sort of a god hand, obviously, but the more typical t3 Metalworker isn't uncommon at all, and is still ridiculously powerful more often than not.
On the other hand, drawing t6 Metalworker is usually pretty bad, but a lot of ramp cards are pretty lame to draw into later in the game.
Thanks for the insight, I just like to see others point of view of what its doing and what not. Metalworker anywhere off curve is underwhelming and even a T3 can be kind of slow in a lot of cases depending on the deck. That said, I get where you are coming from but I also think that for the most part (back on track) the question with Academy comes down to the question of how fast it can reliably be set up and producing some amount of mana. For the big concerns I would be concerned by the following:
T1: 2+ mana
T2: 2+ mana
T3: 3+ mana
T4: 3+ mana
Beyond those turns I think in a lot of cases you could argue that Cradle can do the same rate of growth or better. I think those numbers are going to be very hard to hit consistently on curve. The big difference between cradle and academy if you ask me are that 1) artifacts can tap for mana the turn they come in 2) zero mana artifacts exist and zero mana creatures mostly don't. On the flip side creatures make tokens and its not that hard to get several bodies / card cast so its really the difference in the first few turns.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Also, artifact creatures tokens are a thing with Academy. Though neither is exactly optimized for Academy in their current build, I am pretty Academy would be pumping out 4+ mana on its own by turn 4 more often than not in my Brudiclad and Jhoira decks, between artifact lands, artifacts I've cast and thopter-makers.
The deck already runs Chrome Mox, Dark Sphere, Everflowing Chalice, Lotus Petal, Mana Crypt, Memnite, Mishra's Bauble, Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Ornithopter, Paradise Mantle, Phyrexian Walker, Shield Sphere, Spellbook, Tormod's Crypt, Urza's Bauble, Welding Jar and and Zuran Orb.
That's only the 0-mana slot. With ~20/65 nonland cards in that slot the deck could go off of a literally empty board state.
My buddy runs a Kozilek deck that we partner with for 2HG tournaments. He routinely gets it out in the first couple of turns and catapults ahead in mana.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg