The same argument about late game TA can be said about dropping Cradle on turn 7 as well. Late game utilization between the three cards has no drastic difference other than ubiquity and opportunities. The constant argument has been about 'too much mana too quickly', but what is too quickly and what is too much when compared to the current cards in the format, most notably Cradle. If Cradle made the banlist, then my argument wouldn't have any merit and I'd be content with keep TA banned, but as it stands I do not see a drastic difference between either card when included in decks that could take advantage of them.
Aaaand with this argument you're missing the point that TA is also much more likely to explode in the early game as Cradle is. Cradle is decent early on and becomes better and better later in a game. TA is already much better usually in the early stages, with Cradle catching up later on. The comparison here was TA vs SRing, not TA vs Cradle which both are different kinds of comparisons.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I wonder how many people have actually played with Academy in an EDH deck. It really feels that certain cards like Academy get automatic "no" from many people due to the idea of the card rather than the card itself.
I've played with the card and outside of what could be considered lots of luck or a godhand it was not overwhelming. Unless it is drawn with some combination of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and the legal Moxen it simply isn't going to take over a game by itself. And if it does it is a small enough percent of the time that it is irrelevant. Things too often get judged in their absolute best case scenarios instead of how they work in real games.
I wonder how many people have actually played with Academy in an EDH deck. It really feels that certain cards like Academy get automatic "no" from many people due to the idea of the card rather than the card itself.
I've played with the card and outside of what could be considered lots of luck or a godhand it was not overwhelming. Unless it is drawn with some combination of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and the legal Moxen it simply isn't going to take over a game by itself. And if it does it is a small enough percent of the time that it is irrelevant. Things too often get judged in their absolute best case scenarios instead of how they work in real games.
The problem has less to do with with what casual Timmy or the occasional Johnny player will do, and more to do with the Spike players who will do everything in their power to play the land as early as possible and abuse it. And unfortunately it has super easily met requirements to accelerate players far beyond everyone else's board states.
I wonder how many people have actually played with Academy in an EDH deck. It really feels that certain cards like Academy get automatic "no" from many people due to the idea of the card rather than the card itself.
I've played with the card and outside of what could be considered lots of luck or a godhand it was not overwhelming. Unless it is drawn with some combination of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and the legal Moxen it simply isn't going to take over a game by itself. And if it does it is a small enough percent of the time that it is irrelevant. Things too often get judged in their absolute best case scenarios instead of how they work in real games.
The problem has less to do with with what casual Timmy or the occasional Johnny player will do, and more to do with the Spike players who will do everything in their power to play the land as early as possible and abuse it. And unfortunately it has super easily met requirements to accelerate players far beyond everyone else's board states.
The EDH banlist not only isn't balanced around Spike players but it rarely cares about them at all. So I don't really see why this matters.
I wonder how many people have actually played with Academy in an EDH deck. It really feels that certain cards like Academy get automatic "no" from many people due to the idea of the card rather than the card itself.
I've played with the card and outside of what could be considered lots of luck or a godhand it was not overwhelming. Unless it is drawn with some combination of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and the legal Moxen it simply isn't going to take over a game by itself. And if it does it is a small enough percent of the time that it is irrelevant. Things too often get judged in their absolute best case scenarios instead of how they work in real games.
The problem has less to do with with what casual Timmy or the occasional Johnny player will do, and more to do with the Spike players who will do everything in their power to play the land as early as possible and abuse it. And unfortunately it has super easily met requirements to accelerate players far beyond everyone else's board states.
The EDH banlist not only isn't balanced around Spike players but it rarely cares about them at all. So I don't really see why this matters.
While I can't comment on every players feelings, I know that I personally don't want to sit down for a game of edh in a store event or similar and play games that end before turn 5-6. That's what vintage/legacy/modern is for. Academy has the easily met potential to accelerate board states to where people can end it that quickly. While for some people that is fun, I don't think unbanning a card that is as restricted in other formats as the Power 9 is a good way to expand the popularity of a format in which the spirit of is casual fun.
I wonder how many people have actually played with Academy in an EDH deck. It really feels that certain cards like Academy get automatic "no" from many people due to the idea of the card rather than the card itself.
I've played with the card and outside of what could be considered lots of luck or a godhand it was not overwhelming. Unless it is drawn with some combination of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and the legal Moxen it simply isn't going to take over a game by itself. And if it does it is a small enough percent of the time that it is irrelevant. Things too often get judged in their absolute best case scenarios instead of how they work in real games.
The problem has less to do with with what casual Timmy or the occasional Johnny player will do, and more to do with the Spike players who will do everything in their power to play the land as early as possible and abuse it. And unfortunately it has super easily met requirements to accelerate players far beyond everyone else's board states.
The EDH banlist not only isn't balanced around Spike players but it rarely cares about them at all. So I don't really see why this matters.
While I can't comment on every players feelings, I know that I personally don't want to sit down for a game of edh in a store event or similar and play games that end before turn 5-6. That's what vintage/legacy/modern is for. Academy has the easily met potential to accelerate board states to where people can end it that quickly. While for some people that is fun, I don't think unbanning a card that is as restricted in other formats as the Power 9 is a good way to expand the popularity of a format in which the spirit of is casual fun.
As we already have Sol Ring and Mana Crypt I also find this argument unconvincing. A small minority of players powergaming is not justification for cards existing on a banlist.
The arguments feel more "anti-Spike" than anti-Academy and it feels rather like they're missing the point.
I wonder how many people have actually played with Academy in an EDH deck. It really feels that certain cards like Academy get automatic "no" from many people due to the idea of the card rather than the card itself.
I've played with the card and outside of what could be considered lots of luck or a godhand it was not overwhelming. Unless it is drawn with some combination of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and the legal Moxen it simply isn't going to take over a game by itself. And if it does it is a small enough percent of the time that it is irrelevant. Things too often get judged in their absolute best case scenarios instead of how they work in real games.
The problem has less to do with with what casual Timmy or the occasional Johnny player will do, and more to do with the Spike players who will do everything in their power to play the land as early as possible and abuse it. And unfortunately it has super easily met requirements to accelerate players far beyond everyone else's board states.
The EDH banlist not only isn't balanced around Spike players but it rarely cares about them at all. So I don't really see why this matters.
While I can't comment on every players feelings, I know that I personally don't want to sit down for a game of edh in a store event or similar and play games that end before turn 5-6. That's what vintage/legacy/modern is for. Academy has the easily met potential to accelerate board states to where people can end it that quickly. While for some people that is fun, I don't think unbanning a card that is as restricted in other formats as the Power 9 is a good way to expand the popularity of a format in which the spirit of is casual fun.
As we already have Sol Ring and Mana Crypt I also find this argument unconvincing. A small minority of players powergaming is not justification for cards existing on a banlist.
The arguments feel more "anti-Spike" than anti-Academy and it feels rather like they're missing the point.
When you tap a sol ring or mana crypt with no untapping effects and such, they never go beyond two mana. Academy has the potential to go much higher. Couple that with the fact that there are far more cards that can blow up sol ring and mana crypt than there are to blow up academy, and that MLD is highly frowned upon, eliminating even more answers, and there really isn't much of a comparison.
Quite frankly, I've never really understood the Tolarian Academy ban all that well. Its legitimacy as a banned card is something I've always questioned.
It's easy for me to imagine Academy producing excessive amounts of mana. I've seen that already in cards like Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle, and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, but what I've always been skeptical of is the claim that Tolarian Academy makes too much mana too quickly. Perhaps I'm being naive; I've never played with or against the card, but I've always felt that the speed at which people claim Tolarian Academy generates mana is grossly exaggerated (Three mana by turn two? Seriously?). Sure, it's possible to devise a hand of Lotus Petals, Welding Jars, and other free cards that enables Academy on the first turn (much like Cradle can go off with Kobolds or Serra's Sanctum with Leylines), but these openers don't seem realistic coming from typical, artifact-heavy Commander decks.
Most artifacts aren't free. They cost mana just like every other nonland card. Barring Magical Christmasland scenarios involving Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, and other fast mana artifacts, I suspect Tolarian Academy will actually take a few turns to activate. And there's a meaningful cost to using it too. For decks without a critical mass of cheap artifacts, Tolarian Academy will more likely be a burden than a boon. One artifact must be in play before the card is even an Island, and it doesn't pay off until its user controls at least two. That feels especially significant to me. How quickly do most artifact-heavy decks get two into play? If those artifacts aren't cards like Mox Diamond, they won't be coming out of thin air. Players are going to rely on their lands to cast those artifacts just like they do every other card, and those land drops will take time to build up.
To better gauge Tolarian Academy, I'm actually going to do an experiment. Starting today, I'm going to put the Academy into my deck and test it for as long as necessary to get an honest feel for the card. My gut tells me it will likely be a powerful addition to my deck, but not so much that it becomes overbearing. Ultimately, I predict it will be safe. Packing over 20 artifacts, many of which can be tutored via Artificer's Intuition, I also feel as though my deck is the perfect testing ground for the card. I wouldn't call it an artifact based deck, but it does contain a plethora of cheap artifacts including Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and Mox Opal, so the potential for Academy to do its worst is definitely there. My deck also contains some of the more expensive artifacts like Omen Machine, Platinum Angel, and Darksteel Forge though, so hopefully a realistic balance between expensive and inexpensive artifacts is struck. Oh, and it also includes Mycosynth Lattice, so that will be interesting. I'm not expecting crazy starts to happen all that often. In fact, I'm not expecting any crazy starts to happen at all, even with the partial paris mulligans I'll be using, but I guess we'll see.
Once the experiment is over, I'll post the results here to let everyone know what I learned.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
1 Artifacts are colorless (giving them an edge over enchantments), are often cheap with easy access to ramp, and aren't creatures (gaea's cradle is dependant on creatures). Yes, TA is that much stronger. EDIT: Yes the point is that creatures are easier to remove. Let's move on.
2 Metalworker is a meek creature so is easier to remove and requires a large hand to function as brokenly as TA.
3 Blue mana isn't colorless and can be used for stuff that isn't artifacts. Mishra's Workshop is broken in many formats but nowhere as absurd as TA.
All in all the answer is: Yes, the other cards are problematic, but TA is beyond insane.
Again, ubiquity does not factor into banning. I'd argue that both creatures and artifacts have strong sweep effects in this format, so I wouldn't say it's that much easier to remove creatures than artifacts.
Sure, MW is easier to remove, but the argument is ramping 'too hard, too fast' - if you're only argument is that removal is a thing, the same can be said about TA. It's kinda silly to start trying to add quantification to this because deck building/design can influence this by players and what people include in their decks is too subjective to be a strong stance to leverage an opinion on.
Sure, but again, TA can produce as much mana as Cradle and Sanctum at the same rate, requiring the same number of cards. I'll get more into this in my next response.
The same argument about late game TA can be said about dropping Cradle on turn 7 as well. Late game utilization between the three cards has no drastic difference other than ubiquity and opportunities. The constant argument has been about 'too much mana too quickly', but what is too quickly and what is too much when compared to the current cards in the format, most notably Cradle. If Cradle made the banlist, then my argument wouldn't have any merit and I'd be content with keep TA banned, but as it stands I do not see a drastic difference between either card when included in decks that could take advantage of them.
Aaaand with this argument you're missing the point that TA is also much more likely to explode in the early game as Cradle is. Cradle is decent early on and becomes better and better later in a game. TA is already much better usually in the early stages, with Cradle catching up later on. The comparison here was TA vs SRing, not TA vs Cradle which both are different kinds of comparisons.
I disagree. Mono-G Elves-Tribal can just as easily hit 3 G on T2 as Ux artifacts. I also have Cradle in my GW deck and 3 on T2 is doable due to the significant number of 1 drops that produce mana in the list. This does take god draws, but that was my exact point. If you don't agree, that is fine, but you won't convince me otherwise based on my experiences with both cards.
TL;DR for the rest of replies I didn't quote - I disagree with the notion that TA is easier to generate more mana than Cradle. Both cards are equally broken in decks that are built to take advantage of them. Getting significant amounts of mana from either card requires very good openers/draws that pretty much equates to god draws. Removal is an option for both cards and their sources (creatures vs artifacts) and the quantity of removal is not good enough to force TA on the banlist above Cradle.
I actually have Tolarian Academy in one of my decks since we dont' really have a banned list. It's a decent card but unless you're trying to bust the game open with cheap combo, I think Cradle, Coffers, and Nythos will probably give more mileage. Academy is broken but more so because you can use it with all those cheap artifacts to end the game in the first couple turns in normal Magic, not because it actually produces absurdly high amounts of mana. It's worse than Lake of the Dead unless you're going all in on cheap artifacts or are going to end the game super fast like the hyper competitive crowd. The Academy decks were playing 4 Ancient Tomb, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Mana Vault, 3 Voltaic Key, and 4 Mox Diamond in 60 cards and 4 Time Spiral to untap your lands and draw 7. Even if you could play all 5 moxen you couldn't replicate that density in commander so saying it's banned/restricted in normal formats means nothing. You'd have to have way more busted artifacts than exist to top 35% of the total deck. Yeah, you can run it and all your artifacts out but if your threat gets answered, you're just begging for a Shatterstorm or something. Urza block became a combo winter cluster**** not because of any one card but because of the absurd density of brokenness. It had decks where a good hand produced 7 mana turn one, not the Magical Christmasland. Academy in commander is a mere shadow of its normal power even if you go all in. An Academy for 3 is just Sol Ring since it also costs you your land drop. Sure, it's better than Ancient Tomb in a dedicated artifact deck, but so what?
Barring Magical Christmasland scenarios involving Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, and other fast mana artifacts, I suspect Tolarian Academy will actually take a few turns to activate.
Here are the assumptions used:
You play the following twelve cards (each of which is worth playing on its own), and no other artifacts.
One of the cards in your hand is either a land or CMC 0 artifact capable of producing mana on turn 1
There are a few other minor variables, but they are small enough we can discard them
9.09% Tolarian Academy by turn 2
19.46% Academy produces if played by turn 2
5.44% Academy produces or more if played by turn 2
Academy is producing two or more mana on turn two every four games it is available, and will appear by turn 2 roughly once every 10 games.
This rate goes up drastically when you add additional artifacts - there are easily another half dozen CMC 0 or 1 artifacts likely worth including, depending on your exact colors and deck build.
This goes up again when you consider the majority of these early artifacts produce mana, often more than they cost to cast, allowing CMC 2+ artifacts to reliably contribute to Academy's production on turn 2.
And finally, it goes up yet again after factoring mulligans.
There are to many variables to get an exact number, but I would estimate any deck that wants a Tolarian Academy will have access to it by turn 2 one out of every four to six games.
Of those games, it will produce or more a third of the time, and most of the remainder. It will (basically) never produce less than , making it never worse than an Island.
Compare this to Gaea's Cradle, where even when used optimally will have a not-insignificant number of games where it does not produce mana, even before factoring in its larger vulnerability to creature removal & board wipes.
Also remember that many of the cards used to increase Academy mana production themselves produce mana the turn they are played, and Academy continues to scale up as the game progresses at a similar rate to Cradle (though admittedly tends to have a lower peak).
Imagine, if you will, that Mana Crypt & Sol Ring - cards that are themselves often argued for banning - produced colored mana.
That is the average to below-average performance of Academy on turn 2 or 3 in any deck worth playing it in.
Sure, it's better than Ancient Tomb in a dedicated artifact deck, but so what?
Give me the choice of either Academy or Workshop for my deck, and I will always choose Academy.
Give me the choice of either Academy or both Workshop and Metalworker, and I will probably choose Academy.
Give me the choice of either Academy, or all of Workshop, Metalworker, and Ancient Tomb, and I will still strongly consider Academy.
To better gauge Tolarian Academy, I'm actually going to do an experiment. Starting today, I'm going to put the Academy into my deck and test it for as long as necessary to get an honest feel for the card.
Once the experiment is over, I'll post the results here to let everyone know what I learned.
I am glad you are going to test your hypothesis, and strongly suspect you will be very surprised.
One thing to also consider though, once you better understand how Academy plays, is what other changes you would make to the deck, should Academy stay in it. Of particular note are things like Time Spiral, Windfall, and Blue Sun's Zenith, which often do not make the final cut for decks, but are near-automatic inclusions when you have Academy.
I brought this debate to the attention of many of the people at my local store tonight, and was met with universal bafflement as to why anyone would argue for it's unbanning. These people have played with and against Academy before, both in Commander and other formats.
One of the responses is a good line to end this on:
"Want to know how to improve Vintage Workshop decks?
Restrict Workshop and Unrestrict Academy."
I honestly don't understand the ban either. As others have said, it requires other cards to be good and the horror scenario that is possible in 60 card 4 copies of each decks are simply not possible in commander.
Is it a good card? Yes. So are a lot of other cards.
Can it help a deck reach a critical mass of mana later in the game? Yes. So can Cradle, Cabal Coffers, Shrine to Nykthos, Doubling Cube etc.
On average, would I prefer an Academy in my opening hand instead of Sol Ring / Mana Crypt? No.
I think what most people are missing is that even if you would build your entire deck to abuse an early Academy, most of the cards you'll need to play to do this are not cards you would likely play in a commander deck. Yeah it can be powerfull if you can go T1 Tolarian Academy,Lotus Petal, Mana Crypt, Mox Diamond, Sol Ring, Time Spiral and go to value town but that's not realistically going to happen in more than1 every 1000 games and probably less (I suck at math, sorry).
In most decks I have and I know, it will work as a slightly improved Temple of the False God in that it will be land that produces two, maybe three mana if playeed on turn 4, 5. Good enough to play, but nothing to be afraid of. Because most mana rocks cost 1 - 3 mana which need to be played first. And everyone (at least in my group) packs one or more of Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter[/card], Tectonic Edge, Encroaching Wastes etc.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
What people are missing I think is that, while Cradle or Sanctum can crack off for nine or ten mana once you're a few turns in, Academy brings in a couple extra, but way way too early. The idea isn't that you'll pack two dozen 0 mana rocks hoping to throw them all down and fart out a turn two Thraximundar from the command zone, it's that if you just happen to have Sol Ring, Tolarian Academy and Tormod's Crypt in your opener, well, that represents 4 mana when everyone else is probably only going to have 1, or zero. From there you're going to have a clear advantage that was pretty much impossible to interrupt and based on no fault of your opponents'. Things like Crypt and Ring get played decently often anyway, so it doesn't take much bending over backwards to get done either.
I think some people are missing the fact that it's not so much that Tolarian Academy hanging by its lonesome is bad, it's that it gets bad when it's gang of low cost mana rocks come into play.
Sol Ring and Crypt never go beyond 2 mana on a single tap effect. They are by far the least broken of the cards I'll mention in this post.
Sanctum doesn't synergize with mana producing enchantments for explosive starts. This makes it weaker than Cradle, Academy, and Metalworker.
Of the three remaining, Metalworker is the easiest to deal with. In addition to dying to the most common removal, most common board wipes, and creature steal effects, it also can be effectively dealt with by forcing an opponent to discard their hand.
That leaves Cradle and Academy. Both synergize with mana producers for explosive mana, and both are victims of what should be staple Strip Mine effects in deck building.
But, cradle has two things that dampen it enough to be legal.
One, creature summoning sickness. Llanowar elves cannot tap as soon as you play it to generate even more early game mana without a way to give it haste. And while that isn't hard to do, that is still one more step that forces cradle to be slower than Academy. Unless mana rocks get summoning sickness in a rule change, Academy will always be a step faster.
Secondly, it's the way of dealing with Academy and Cradle producing tons of mana. Yes, they both die to Strip mine land destruction. But if you want to deal with it the other way, which would be wiping Cradle's creatures or wiping Academy's artifacts, there are far, far, far more ways to wipe a board of creatures than there are artifacts. Sure there are comparable strength (Shatter storm, Wrath of God), but in terms of access and quantity of cards to deal with creatures or artifacts, there's no comparison.
It doesn't matter if there's a thousand times more wraths, though. You can't reasonably run more than a handful in a deck anyway. That's like what happened when Wrath of God and Damnation were both in standard. Decks didn't run 8 of them. There's already enough of them to fill a deck with a reasonable number of Shatterstorms for red, white, or green, enough enchantment sweeps for green and white, and more than enough to fill a deck with a reasonable number of creature sweepers for red, white, or black and blue has plenty of mass bounce. Infact there's a reasonable number of artifact/enchantment/creature sweeps in colorless although they are pretty high mana. The amount of answers isn't an argument other than theoreticals since a deck loaded down with sweepers of any kind sucks.
Now, yeah, Academy would be pretty rough in hyper competitive, but the banned list decisions are already rough times for that. I seriously doubt Academy makes mana that can rival reanimating a Khalni Hydra with Nykthos out, so it's no longer the most explosive mana land if we're going for super silly. That's like Boundless Realms/Mana Reflection level silly.
It doesn't matter if there's a thousand times more wraths, though. You can't reasonably run more than a handful in a deck anyway. That's like what happened when Wrath of God and Damnation were both in standard. Decks didn't run 8 of them. There's already enough of them to fill a deck with a reasonable number of Shatterstorms for red, white, or green, enough enchantment sweeps for green and white, and more than enough to fill a deck with a reasonable number of creature sweepers for red, white, or black and blue has plenty of mass bounce. Infact there's a reasonable number of artifact/enchantment/creature sweeps in colorless although they are pretty high mana. The amount of answers isn't an argument other than theoreticals since a deck loaded down with sweepers of any kind sucks.
Now, yeah, Academy would be pretty rough in hyper competitive, but the banned list decisions are already rough times for that. I seriously doubt Academy makes mana that can rival reanimating a Khalni Hydra with Nykthos out, so it's no longer the most explosive mana land if we're going for super silly. That's like Boundless Realms/Mana Reflection level silly.
I concede on the amount printed of hate cards, that is a good point.
But the problem with Academy is not when it's out on turn 10.
It's when it comes out on turn 1 or 2. It's explosive early mana potential synergy far exceeds Nykthos, Coffers, and even Cradle. Again, if mana rocks had summoning sickness, this wouldn't be an issue.
Academy isn't going to make 6+ mana in the first few turns unless your deck is loaded down with cheap artifacts to the point it barely has threats. Nykthos can make 6 with the hydra. That land can easily make 8 mana turn 2 for a +6 by itself. That means 9 mana turn 2 is a realistic possibility with a land no one has ever mentioned for commander banning that I know of. If you're talking about loading your deck with rocks to the point academy going insane that fast, you probably aren't building a casual oriented deck anyway and if you are, you probably have one threat and if it doesn't pan out, you're open to a Shatterstorm variant whether Academy is in the format or not.
Here's my take on TA. You guys seem to forget that ornithopter is a thing. There's plenty of other 0cmc artifacts out there that are effective on t1 as well. There's also artifact lands that are banned too. Imo, TA is to artifacts as chalice is to control. It gets insane and when used properly it will win you the game. It can also win you the game really early. Also unlike most other early artifact ramp plays this one gives you colored mana. Most everything else gives you colorless until you have enough for a signet or a cluestone. Here's an example t-1 with academy. T1 play ornithopter and academy. Now play brainstorm. What just happened? You got your TA online for 0 mana. You have a flying blocker on the field. And you set up your next couple draws. All for a single blue mana. That's insane. T2 another 0cmc artifact and an artifact land. Now you're able to tap academy for 3 on turn 2. And you still have your next draw set up. So you can play a master of etherium who comes in as a 3/3 or 4/4 on turn 2. Yes green has similar potential but they're waiting on turn 2 to start making things happen. With academy this starts on t1. And yes I do realize artifact lands are banned in modern as well.
What I'm kind of confused about in this thread is the assumption that 6 green mana is some how equal to 6 blue mana. What an artifact deck can put together with a permanent like that can be a lot harder to stop then what creatures can put together. Candelabra of Tawnos, Snap, Frantic search, Time spiral , with outlets like Memnarch vrs Damnation and wrath of god. Green will run out of creatures far before blue runs out of artifacts.
The metalworker debate is ridiculous. TA should be unbanned because metalworker isnt banned. So that way the only deck that really benefits gets to run them both.
The draw card from blue is a big deal here. More cards = more artifacts = more mana = more cards ect.
Here are the assumptions used:
You play the following twelve cards (each of which is worth playing on its own), and no other artifacts.
One of the cards in your hand is either a land or CMC 0 artifact capable of producing mana on turn 1
There are a few other minor variables, but they are small enough we can discard them
9.09% Tolarian Academy by turn 2
19.46% Academy produces if played by turn 2
5.44% Academy produces or more if played by turn 2
Academy is producing two or more mana on turn two every four games it is available, and will appear by turn 2 roughly once every 10 games.
This rate goes up drastically when you add additional artifacts - there are easily another half dozen CMC 0 or 1 artifacts likely worth including, depending on your exact colors and deck build.
This goes up again when you consider the majority of these early artifacts produce mana, often more than they cost to cast, allowing CMC 2+ artifacts to reliably contribute to Academy's production on turn 2.
And finally, it goes up yet again after factoring mulligans.
Now I get an understanding of your math and understand how you're misrepresenting it. You're right you get 9.09% odds of drawing into TA by turn 2, and you're also right that you have 19.46% of having TA make 2 mana on turn 2, but that is assuming you have TA available. For a true mathematical representation of any given game, you need to multiple the two together which represents the odds of getting TA and getting 2 mana, which is only 1.7% of any game given game. Your 2+ example is even lower at 0.49% of any given games.
If you don't think hitting a card and getting the 'problem effect' out of it once out of every 50 games, or getting the really broken effect out of it once every 200 games, is not a 'God Draw', I don't know what to tell you.
I think some people are missing the fact that it's not so much that Tolarian Academy hanging by its lonesome is bad, it's that it gets bad when it's gang of low cost mana rocks come into play.
Sol Ring and Crypt never go beyond 2 mana on a single tap effect. They are by far the least broken of the cards I'll mention in this post.
Sanctum doesn't synergize with mana producing enchantments for explosive starts. This makes it weaker than Cradle, Academy, and Metalworker.
Of the three remaining, Metalworker is the easiest to deal with. In addition to dying to the most common removal, most common board wipes, and creature steal effects, it also can be effectively dealt with by forcing an opponent to discard their hand.
That leaves Cradle and Academy. Both synergize with mana producers for explosive mana, and both are victims of what should be staple Strip Mine effects in deck building.
But, cradle has two things that dampen it enough to be legal.
One, creature summoning sickness. Llanowar elves cannot tap as soon as you play it to generate even more early game mana without a way to give it haste. And while that isn't hard to do, that is still one more step that forces cradle to be slower than Academy. Unless mana rocks get summoning sickness in a rule change, Academy will always be a step faster.
Secondly, it's the way of dealing with Academy and Cradle producing tons of mana. Yes, they both die to Strip mine land destruction. But if you want to deal with it the other way, which would be wiping Cradle's creatures or wiping Academy's artifacts, there are far, far, far more ways to wipe a board of creatures than there are artifacts. Sure there are comparable strength (Shatter storm, Wrath of God), but in terms of access and quantity of cards to deal with creatures or artifacts, there's no comparison.
Here's my take on TA. You guys seem to forget that ornithopter is a thing. There's plenty of other 0cmc artifacts out there that are effective on t1 as well. There's also artifact lands that are banned too. Imo, TA is to artifacts as chalice is to control. It gets insane and when used properly it will win you the game. It can also win you the game really early. Also unlike most other early artifact ramp plays this one gives you colored mana. Most everything else gives you colorless until you have enough for a signet or a cluestone. Here's an example t-1 with academy. T1 play ornithopter and academy. Now play brainstorm. What just happened? You got your TA online for 0 mana. You have a flying blocker on the field. And you set up your next couple draws. All for a single blue mana. That's insane. T2 another 0cmc artifact and an artifact land. Now you're able to tap academy for 3 on turn 2. And you still have your next draw set up. So you can play a master of etherium who comes in as a 3/3 or 4/4 on turn 2. Yes green has similar potential but they're waiting on turn 2 to start making things happen. With academy this starts on t1. And yes I do realize artifact lands are banned in modern as well.
See my above response. Same applies to your arguments as well.
Here are the assumptions used:
You play the following twelve cards (each of which is worth playing on its own), and no other artifacts.
One of the cards in your hand is either a land or CMC 0 artifact capable of producing mana on turn 1
There are a few other minor variables, but they are small enough we can discard them
9.09% Tolarian Academy by turn 2
19.46% Academy produces if played by turn 2
5.44% Academy produces or more if played by turn 2
Academy is producing two or more mana on turn two every four games it is available, and will appear by turn 2 roughly once every 10 games.
This rate goes up drastically when you add additional artifacts - there are easily another half dozen CMC 0 or 1 artifacts likely worth including, depending on your exact colors and deck build.
This goes up again when you consider the majority of these early artifacts produce mana, often more than they cost to cast, allowing CMC 2+ artifacts to reliably contribute to Academy's production on turn 2.
And finally, it goes up yet again after factoring mulligans.
Now I get an understanding of your math and understand how you're misrepresenting it. You're right you get 9.09% odds of drawing into TA by turn 2, and you're also right that you have 19.46% of having TA make 2 mana on turn 2, but that is assuming you have TA available. For a true mathematical representation of any given game, you need to multiple the two together which represents the odds of getting TA and getting 2 mana, which is only 1.7% of any game given game. Your 2+ example is even lower at 0.49% of any given games.
If you don't think hitting a card and getting the 'problem effect' out of it once out of every 50 games, or getting the really broken effect out of it once every 200 games, is not a 'God Draw', I don't know what to tell you.
Also, mulligans do have a strong effect on your % by providing more opportunities, but not as much as you think because anything past the free muligan begins to lower your # of opportunities in the Hypergeometric Distribution, which has a huge influence on the % probability.
I think some people are missing the fact that it's not so much that Tolarian Academy hanging by its lonesome is bad, it's that it gets bad when it's gang of low cost mana rocks come into play.
Sol Ring and Crypt never go beyond 2 mana on a single tap effect. They are by far the least broken of the cards I'll mention in this post.
Sanctum doesn't synergize with mana producing enchantments for explosive starts. This makes it weaker than Cradle, Academy, and Metalworker.
Of the three remaining, Metalworker is the easiest to deal with. In addition to dying to the most common removal, most common board wipes, and creature steal effects, it also can be effectively dealt with by forcing an opponent to discard their hand.
That leaves Cradle and Academy. Both synergize with mana producers for explosive mana, and both are victims of what should be staple Strip Mine effects in deck building.
But, cradle has two things that dampen it enough to be legal.
One, creature summoning sickness. Llanowar elves cannot tap as soon as you play it to generate even more early game mana without a way to give it haste. And while that isn't hard to do, that is still one more step that forces cradle to be slower than Academy. Unless mana rocks get summoning sickness in a rule change, Academy will always be a step faster.
Secondly, it's the way of dealing with Academy and Cradle producing tons of mana. Yes, they both die to Strip mine land destruction. But if you want to deal with it the other way, which would be wiping Cradle's creatures or wiping Academy's artifacts, there are far, far, far more ways to wipe a board of creatures than there are artifacts. Sure there are comparable strength (Shatter storm, Wrath of God), but in terms of access and quantity of cards to deal with creatures or artifacts, there's no comparison.
Here's my take on TA. You guys seem to forget that ornithopter is a thing. There's plenty of other 0cmc artifacts out there that are effective on t1 as well. There's also artifact lands that are banned too. Imo, TA is to artifacts as chalice is to control. It gets insane and when used properly it will win you the game. It can also win you the game really early. Also unlike most other early artifact ramp plays this one gives you colored mana. Most everything else gives you colorless until you have enough for a signet or a cluestone. Here's an example t-1 with academy. T1 play ornithopter and academy. Now play brainstorm. What just happened? You got your TA online for 0 mana. You have a flying blocker on the field. And you set up your next couple draws. All for a single blue mana. That's insane. T2 another 0cmc artifact and an artifact land. Now you're able to tap academy for 3 on turn 2. And you still have your next draw set up. So you can play a master of etherium who comes in as a 3/3 or 4/4 on turn 2. Yes green has similar potential but they're waiting on turn 2 to start making things happen. With academy this starts on t1. And yes I do realize artifact lands are banned in modern as well.
What I'm kind of confused about in this thread is the assumption that 6 green mana is some how equal to 6 blue mana. What an artifact deck can put together with a permanent like that can be a lot harder to stop then what creatures can put together. Candelabra of Tawnos, Snap, Frantic search, Time spiral , with outlets like Memnarch vrs Damnation and wrath of god. Green will run out of creatures far before blue runs out of artifacts.
The metalworker debate is ridiculous. TA should be unbanned because metalworker isnt banned. So that way the only deck that really benefits gets to run them both.
The draw card from blue is a big deal here. More cards = more artifacts = more mana = more cards ect.
Edit: card links
See my above response. Same applies to your arguments as well. For the record and a matter of reference, a T1 Sol Ring has a 7.07% chance of happening for any given deck.
Again, it's not just Tolarian Academy coming out by itself. It's that try hards and Spike players are going run expedition maps, Sylvan scrying, all the rocks, and do everything to push the odds of sticking it as early as possible and as often as possible to abuse it and win on turn 4-6.
We seem to be going round and round in these arguments. So I'd like to ask: why does Blue, arguably one of the most powerful colors in magic, also need the best mana acceleration land? If you want to accelerate that hard, shouldn't you have to run green?
And if Tolarian Academy doesn't need to be banned, then does that mean the Mox also not need to be banned? They only tap for 1. Far less than what Tolarian Academy has the potential to do on turn 1.
Here are the assumptions used:
You play the following twelve cards (each of which is worth playing on its own), and no other artifacts.
One of the cards in your hand is either a land or CMC 0 artifact capable of producing mana on turn 1
There are a few other minor variables, but they are small enough we can discard them
9.09% Tolarian Academy by turn 2
19.46% Academy produces if played by turn 2
5.44% Academy produces or more if played by turn 2
Academy is producing two or more mana on turn two every four games it is available, and will appear by turn 2 roughly once every 10 games.
This rate goes up drastically when you add additional artifacts - there are easily another half dozen CMC 0 or 1 artifacts likely worth including, depending on your exact colors and deck build.
This goes up again when you consider the majority of these early artifacts produce mana, often more than they cost to cast, allowing CMC 2+ artifacts to reliably contribute to Academy's production on turn 2.
And finally, it goes up yet again after factoring mulligans.
Now I get an understanding of your math and understand how you're misrepresenting it. You're right you get 9.09% odds of drawing into TA by turn 2, and you're also right that you have 19.46% of having TA make 2 mana on turn 2, but that is assuming you have TA available. For a true mathematical representation of any given game, you need to multiple the two together which represents the odds of getting TA and getting 2 mana, which is only 1.7% of any game given game. Your 2+ example is even lower at 0.49% of any given games.
If you don't think hitting a card and getting the 'problem effect' out of it once out of every 50 games, or getting the really broken effect out of it once every 200 games, is not a 'God Draw', I don't know what to tell you.
Also, mulligans do have a strong effect on your % by providing more opportunities, but not as much as you think because anything past the free muligan begins to lower your # of opportunities in the Hypergeometric Distribution, which has a huge influence on the % probability.
What I'm kind of confused about in this thread is the assumption that 6 green mana is some how equal to 6 blue mana. What an artifact deck can put together with a permanent like that can be a lot harder to stop then what creatures can put together. Candelabra of Tawnos, Snap, Frantic search, Time spiral , with outlets like Memnarch vrs Damnation and wrath of god. Green will run out of creatures far before blue runs out of artifacts.
The metalworker debate is ridiculous. TA should be unbanned because metalworker isnt banned. So that way the only deck that really benefits gets to run them both.
The draw card from blue is a big deal here. More cards = more artifacts = more mana = more cards ect.
Edit: card links
See my above response. Same applies to your arguments as well. For the record and a matter of reference, a T1 Sol Ring has a 7.07% chance of happening for any given deck.
Again, it's not just Tolarian Academy coming out by itself. It's that try hards and Spike players are going run expedition maps, Sylvan scrying, all the rocks, and do everything to push the odds of sticking it as early as possible and as often as possible to abuse it and win on turn 4-6.
We seem to be going round and round in these arguments. So I'd like to ask: why does Blue, arguably one of the most powerful colors in magic, also need the best mana acceleration land? If you want to accelerate that hard, shouldn't you have to run green?
And if Tolarian Academy doesn't need to be banned, then does that mean the Mox also not need to be banned? They only tap for 1. Far less than what Tolarian Academy has the potential to do on turn 1.
Others already pointed this out, but the BL does not cater to hindering Spikes in favor of Jimmy and Timmy. There are many cards that can be broken by players to produce T1 wins just as probable as a T2 Tolarian for 2 mana on T2, yet that isn't banned in the format. Also, the AB Moxes fall under the PBtE criteria that has existed for some time, so there is your separation.
I'll address the rest in my next quote, but fundamentally I disagree with TA being 'the best' acceleration land in the format - I personally consider that to be Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, but that's just me.
Touche, I just grouped you without reading. Inherently I don't want to consider blue vs green and which is 'better' when discussing casual commander because colors being 'better' than the other is a more competitive commander mindset. And your MW points are hard to understand, are you trying to imply both cards would be good together? Because arguably you need to pick one over the other. The argument I am countering is 'too much, too fast' and you need to look at each card on their own and not combined.
Again, it's not just Tolarian Academy coming out by itself. It's that try hards and Spike players are going run expedition maps, Sylvan scrying, all the rocks, and do everything to push the odds of sticking it as early as possible and as often as possible to abuse it and win on turn 4-6.
We seem to be going round and round in these arguments. So I'd like to ask: why does Blue, arguably one of the most powerful colors in magic, also need the best mana acceleration land? If you want to accelerate that hard, shouldn't you have to run green?
And if Tolarian Academy doesn't need to be banned, then does that mean the Mox also not need to be banned? They only tap for 1. Far less than what Tolarian Academy has the potential to do on turn 1.
Others already pointed this out, but the BL does not cater to hindering Spikes in favor of Jimmy and Timmy. There are many cards that can be broken by players to produce T1 wins just as probable as a T2 Tolarian for 2 mana on T2, yet that isn't banned in the format.
I'll address the rest in my next quote, but fundamentally I disagree with TA being 'the best' acceleration land in the format - I personally consider that to be Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, but that's just me.
Touche, I just grouped you without reading. Inherently I don't want to consider blue vs green and which is 'better' when discussing casual commander because colors being 'better' than the other is a more competitive commander mindset.
Nykthos can't get that early game mana volume like Academy which is why I considered Academy better. The reason I believe Academy is so broken is that early game mana potential. In the later game, Nykthos and Cradle are superior choices on mana producing, I admit.
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Aaaand with this argument you're missing the point that TA is also much more likely to explode in the early game as Cradle is. Cradle is decent early on and becomes better and better later in a game. TA is already much better usually in the early stages, with Cradle catching up later on. The comparison here was TA vs SRing, not TA vs Cradle which both are different kinds of comparisons.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I've played with the card and outside of what could be considered lots of luck or a godhand it was not overwhelming. Unless it is drawn with some combination of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and the legal Moxen it simply isn't going to take over a game by itself. And if it does it is a small enough percent of the time that it is irrelevant. Things too often get judged in their absolute best case scenarios instead of how they work in real games.
The problem has less to do with with what casual Timmy or the occasional Johnny player will do, and more to do with the Spike players who will do everything in their power to play the land as early as possible and abuse it. And unfortunately it has super easily met requirements to accelerate players far beyond everyone else's board states.
The EDH banlist not only isn't balanced around Spike players but it rarely cares about them at all. So I don't really see why this matters.
While I can't comment on every players feelings, I know that I personally don't want to sit down for a game of edh in a store event or similar and play games that end before turn 5-6. That's what vintage/legacy/modern is for. Academy has the easily met potential to accelerate board states to where people can end it that quickly. While for some people that is fun, I don't think unbanning a card that is as restricted in other formats as the Power 9 is a good way to expand the popularity of a format in which the spirit of is casual fun.
As we already have Sol Ring and Mana Crypt I also find this argument unconvincing. A small minority of players powergaming is not justification for cards existing on a banlist.
The arguments feel more "anti-Spike" than anti-Academy and it feels rather like they're missing the point.
When you tap a sol ring or mana crypt with no untapping effects and such, they never go beyond two mana. Academy has the potential to go much higher. Couple that with the fact that there are far more cards that can blow up sol ring and mana crypt than there are to blow up academy, and that MLD is highly frowned upon, eliminating even more answers, and there really isn't much of a comparison.
It's easy for me to imagine Academy producing excessive amounts of mana. I've seen that already in cards like Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle, and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, but what I've always been skeptical of is the claim that Tolarian Academy makes too much mana too quickly. Perhaps I'm being naive; I've never played with or against the card, but I've always felt that the speed at which people claim Tolarian Academy generates mana is grossly exaggerated (Three mana by turn two? Seriously?). Sure, it's possible to devise a hand of Lotus Petals, Welding Jars, and other free cards that enables Academy on the first turn (much like Cradle can go off with Kobolds or Serra's Sanctum with Leylines), but these openers don't seem realistic coming from typical, artifact-heavy Commander decks.
Most artifacts aren't free. They cost mana just like every other nonland card. Barring Magical Christmasland scenarios involving Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, and other fast mana artifacts, I suspect Tolarian Academy will actually take a few turns to activate. And there's a meaningful cost to using it too. For decks without a critical mass of cheap artifacts, Tolarian Academy will more likely be a burden than a boon. One artifact must be in play before the card is even an Island, and it doesn't pay off until its user controls at least two. That feels especially significant to me. How quickly do most artifact-heavy decks get two into play? If those artifacts aren't cards like Mox Diamond, they won't be coming out of thin air. Players are going to rely on their lands to cast those artifacts just like they do every other card, and those land drops will take time to build up.
To better gauge Tolarian Academy, I'm actually going to do an experiment. Starting today, I'm going to put the Academy into my deck and test it for as long as necessary to get an honest feel for the card. My gut tells me it will likely be a powerful addition to my deck, but not so much that it becomes overbearing. Ultimately, I predict it will be safe. Packing over 20 artifacts, many of which can be tutored via Artificer's Intuition, I also feel as though my deck is the perfect testing ground for the card. I wouldn't call it an artifact based deck, but it does contain a plethora of cheap artifacts including Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and Mox Opal, so the potential for Academy to do its worst is definitely there. My deck also contains some of the more expensive artifacts like Omen Machine, Platinum Angel, and Darksteel Forge though, so hopefully a realistic balance between expensive and inexpensive artifacts is struck. Oh, and it also includes Mycosynth Lattice, so that will be interesting. I'm not expecting crazy starts to happen all that often. In fact, I'm not expecting any crazy starts to happen at all, even with the partial paris mulligans I'll be using, but I guess we'll see.
Once the experiment is over, I'll post the results here to let everyone know what I learned.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I disagree. Mono-G Elves-Tribal can just as easily hit 3 G on T2 as Ux artifacts. I also have Cradle in my GW deck and 3 on T2 is doable due to the significant number of 1 drops that produce mana in the list. This does take god draws, but that was my exact point. If you don't agree, that is fine, but you won't convince me otherwise based on my experiences with both cards.
TL;DR for the rest of replies I didn't quote - I disagree with the notion that TA is easier to generate more mana than Cradle. Both cards are equally broken in decks that are built to take advantage of them. Getting significant amounts of mana from either card requires very good openers/draws that pretty much equates to god draws. Removal is an option for both cards and their sources (creatures vs artifacts) and the quantity of removal is not good enough to force TA on the banlist above Cradle.
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Here are the assumptions used:
You play the following twelve cards (each of which is worth playing on its own), and no other artifacts.
One of the cards in your hand is either a land or CMC 0 artifact capable of producing mana on turn 1
Candelabra of Tawnos (or any other CMC 0 or 1 artifact appropriate for your deck)
Expedition Map
Sensei's Divining Top
Seat of the Synod
Darksteel Citadel
Chrome Mox
Mox Diamond
Mox Opal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
Jeweled Amulet
9.09% Tolarian Academy by turn 2
19.46% Academy produces if played by turn 2
5.44% Academy produces or more if played by turn 2
Academy is producing two or more mana on turn two every four games it is available, and will appear by turn 2 roughly once every 10 games.
This rate goes up drastically when you add additional artifacts - there are easily another half dozen CMC 0 or 1 artifacts likely worth including, depending on your exact colors and deck build.
This goes up again when you consider the majority of these early artifacts produce mana, often more than they cost to cast, allowing CMC 2+ artifacts to reliably contribute to Academy's production on turn 2.
And finally, it goes up yet again after factoring mulligans.
There are to many variables to get an exact number, but I would estimate any deck that wants a Tolarian Academy will have access to it by turn 2 one out of every four to six games.
Of those games, it will produce or more a third of the time, and most of the remainder. It will (basically) never produce less than , making it never worse than an Island.
Compare this to Gaea's Cradle, where even when used optimally will have a not-insignificant number of games where it does not produce mana, even before factoring in its larger vulnerability to creature removal & board wipes.
Also remember that many of the cards used to increase Academy mana production themselves produce mana the turn they are played, and Academy continues to scale up as the game progresses at a similar rate to Cradle (though admittedly tends to have a lower peak).
Imagine, if you will, that Mana Crypt & Sol Ring - cards that are themselves often argued for banning - produced colored mana.
That is the average to below-average performance of Academy on turn 2 or 3 in any deck worth playing it in.
Give me the choice of either Academy or Workshop for my deck, and I will always choose Academy.
Give me the choice of either Academy or both Workshop and Metalworker, and I will probably choose Academy.
Give me the choice of either Academy, or all of Workshop, Metalworker, and Ancient Tomb, and I will still strongly consider Academy.
I am glad you are going to test your hypothesis, and strongly suspect you will be very surprised.
One thing to also consider though, once you better understand how Academy plays, is what other changes you would make to the deck, should Academy stay in it. Of particular note are things like Time Spiral, Windfall, and Blue Sun's Zenith, which often do not make the final cut for decks, but are near-automatic inclusions when you have Academy.
I brought this debate to the attention of many of the people at my local store tonight, and was met with universal bafflement as to why anyone would argue for it's unbanning. These people have played with and against Academy before, both in Commander and other formats.
One of the responses is a good line to end this on:
"Want to know how to improve Vintage Workshop decks?
Restrict Workshop and Unrestrict Academy."
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
Is it a good card? Yes. So are a lot of other cards.
Can it help a deck reach a critical mass of mana later in the game? Yes. So can Cradle, Cabal Coffers, Shrine to Nykthos, Doubling Cube etc.
On average, would I prefer an Academy in my opening hand instead of Sol Ring / Mana Crypt? No.
I think what most people are missing is that even if you would build your entire deck to abuse an early Academy, most of the cards you'll need to play to do this are not cards you would likely play in a commander deck. Yeah it can be powerfull if you can go T1 Tolarian Academy,Lotus Petal, Mana Crypt, Mox Diamond, Sol Ring, Time Spiral and go to value town but that's not realistically going to happen in more than1 every 1000 games and probably less (I suck at math, sorry).
In most decks I have and I know, it will work as a slightly improved Temple of the False God in that it will be land that produces two, maybe three mana if playeed on turn 4, 5. Good enough to play, but nothing to be afraid of. Because most mana rocks cost 1 - 3 mana which need to be played first. And everyone (at least in my group) packs one or more of Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter[/card], Tectonic Edge, Encroaching Wastes etc.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Sol Ring and Crypt never go beyond 2 mana on a single tap effect. They are by far the least broken of the cards I'll mention in this post.
Sanctum doesn't synergize with mana producing enchantments for explosive starts. This makes it weaker than Cradle, Academy, and Metalworker.
Of the three remaining, Metalworker is the easiest to deal with. In addition to dying to the most common removal, most common board wipes, and creature steal effects, it also can be effectively dealt with by forcing an opponent to discard their hand.
That leaves Cradle and Academy. Both synergize with mana producers for explosive mana, and both are victims of what should be staple Strip Mine effects in deck building.
But, cradle has two things that dampen it enough to be legal.
One, creature summoning sickness. Llanowar elves cannot tap as soon as you play it to generate even more early game mana without a way to give it haste. And while that isn't hard to do, that is still one more step that forces cradle to be slower than Academy. Unless mana rocks get summoning sickness in a rule change, Academy will always be a step faster.
Secondly, it's the way of dealing with Academy and Cradle producing tons of mana. Yes, they both die to Strip mine land destruction. But if you want to deal with it the other way, which would be wiping Cradle's creatures or wiping Academy's artifacts, there are far, far, far more ways to wipe a board of creatures than there are artifacts. Sure there are comparable strength (Shatter storm, Wrath of God), but in terms of access and quantity of cards to deal with creatures or artifacts, there's no comparison.
Now, yeah, Academy would be pretty rough in hyper competitive, but the banned list decisions are already rough times for that. I seriously doubt Academy makes mana that can rival reanimating a Khalni Hydra with Nykthos out, so it's no longer the most explosive mana land if we're going for super silly. That's like Boundless Realms/Mana Reflection level silly.
I concede on the amount printed of hate cards, that is a good point.
But the problem with Academy is not when it's out on turn 10.
It's when it comes out on turn 1 or 2. It's explosive early mana potential synergy far exceeds Nykthos, Coffers, and even Cradle. Again, if mana rocks had summoning sickness, this wouldn't be an issue.
The metalworker debate is ridiculous. TA should be unbanned because metalworker isnt banned. So that way the only deck that really benefits gets to run them both.
The draw card from blue is a big deal here. More cards = more artifacts = more mana = more cards ect.
Edit: card links
If you don't think hitting a card and getting the 'problem effect' out of it once out of every 50 games, or getting the really broken effect out of it once every 200 games, is not a 'God Draw', I don't know what to tell you.
See my above response. Same applies to your arguments as well.
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If you don't think hitting a card and getting the 'problem effect' out of it once out of every 50 games, or getting the really broken effect out of it once every 200 games, is not a 'God Draw', I don't know what to tell you.
Also, mulligans do have a strong effect on your % by providing more opportunities, but not as much as you think because anything past the free muligan begins to lower your # of opportunities in the Hypergeometric Distribution, which has a huge influence on the % probability.
See my above response. Same applies to your arguments as well. For the record and a matter of reference, a T1 Sol Ring has a 7.07% chance of happening for any given deck.
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We seem to be going round and round in these arguments. So I'd like to ask: why does Blue, arguably one of the most powerful colors in magic, also need the best mana acceleration land? If you want to accelerate that hard, shouldn't you have to run green?
And if Tolarian Academy doesn't need to be banned, then does that mean the Mox also not need to be banned? They only tap for 1. Far less than what Tolarian Academy has the potential to do on turn 1.
Actually it doesn't apply
I'll address the rest in my next quote, but fundamentally I disagree with TA being 'the best' acceleration land in the format - I personally consider that to be Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, but that's just me.
Touche, I just grouped you without reading. Inherently I don't want to consider blue vs green and which is 'better' when discussing casual commander because colors being 'better' than the other is a more competitive commander mindset. And your MW points are hard to understand, are you trying to imply both cards would be good together? Because arguably you need to pick one over the other. The argument I am countering is 'too much, too fast' and you need to look at each card on their own and not combined.
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Nykthos can't get that early game mana volume like Academy which is why I considered Academy better. The reason I believe Academy is so broken is that early game mana potential. In the later game, Nykthos and Cradle are superior choices on mana producing, I admit.