Alone, Chaos Wand is a pretty good card. Sometimes you will hit a dud, but mostly it provides repeated, incremental value while exploiting your opponents' resources. But with Paradox Engine, it is just plain insane.
Just want to add that this is "with PE and 4 mana coming from mana rocks or mana dorks". Most of the time, this is a combo with a minimum of 4 cards, with a real possibility fizzing (counter spells are definitely a problem).
Yes, it is powerful, but there are lots of 4-card combos that are busted.
Is it more busted than Ashnod's Altar + Nim deathmantle + a creature that combos with them (Sun Titan, Grave Titan and every other creature that makes a million tokens, Reveillark, Karmic Guide, ... even Marionette Master makes infinite tokens and drains infinitely)?
I get it that PE combos with a lot of things. But it is almost always a 4 card combo (very rarely 3 card) and you can't ban a card because of 4 card combos.
Here's the thing, though. Most combos - not all, your thing above with Ashnod's Altar, Nim Deathmantle and any of a wide range of creatures is a good example of the exception, as each of those cards are quite solid on its own - include one or more cards that aren't particularly strong on their own. Mike + Trike, for example... on its own Triskelion is a pretty weak card which rarely sees play except to take part in that combo. Most things which get broken with Paradox Engine are things that a deck might already do and which are just fine... but when you throw the Engine in, they get broken. Lots of decks run tons of mana rocks, a smaller but not insignificant number (especially elf decks) run a lot of mana dorks, Cryptolith Rite is a less-reliable but also less vulnerable option for any deck which runs a lot of creatures and would also like to make a lot of mana. None of these are a problem (unless you want to count the perpetual bugbears of Sol Ring and Mana Crypt being part of the suite of mana rocks, but that's pretty much irrelevant here). But when you toss Paradox Engine in with these things which are, on their own, fine, suddenly they become busted all to hell. When one card being added to the mix suddenly busts a bunch of different things that aren't otherwise broken then that card itself should be regarded as pretty suspect.
On its own, Chaos Wand isn't particularly powerful, but most decks that want to run it are probably going to run a lot of mana producers in order to be able to utilize it on a regular basis. That still isn't broken, just more effective than relying on lands alone to keep the Wand going. But once again, add Paradox Engine to the mix and things get insane and someone can take a really, really long turn while the other players just slowly sit by and watch their decks get used against them. Some might call that an undesirable game state. YMMV, of course.
It is cheaper CMC wise and the pieces of it are tutorable so it is easy to slot into a lot of decks that run signets and a sol ring and other mana rocks / dorks.
Also the Paradox Engine thing requires spells to make mana where as if you have 3 mana in rocks and the Scepter combo you can make a big storm or a lot of mana without having a hand full of spells.
Agreed here - Iso-reversal is more prevalent, and requires less building around. People play Mystical Tutor anyway, so it's cheap and easy. PE requires building around, and warps the deck it's in. No doubt it's strong if you have the right conditions for it to work well, but that's not a given. It really only responds to the degeneracy you, as a player and deckbuilder, feed it.
What, exactly, is degenerate about running a bunch of mana rocks or mana dorks? Lots of decks run those things anyhow. Same with just about everything else that is broken with Paradox Engine. That's the problem, just tossing Paradox Engine into the mix breaks a lot of things which aren't otherwise broken.
Which isn't to say Iso-Reversal isn't crazy good, too. It is. But, note that Isochron Scepter is another of the cards (like Chaos Wand) that becomes busted with Paradox Engine and a couple mana rocks, since casting the spell imprinted on the Scepter will untap the Scepter and the rocks, allowing one to cast the imprinted spell over and over. That's irrelevant in the case of Iso-Reversal, but it busts a whole lot of other things one might do with the Scepter.
Alone, Chaos Wand is a pretty good card. Sometimes you will hit a dud, but mostly it provides repeated, incremental value while exploiting your opponents' resources. But with Paradox Engine, it is just plain insane.
Just want to add that this is "with PE and 4 mana coming from mana rocks or mana dorks". Most of the time, this is a combo with a minimum of 4 cards, with a real possibility fizzing (counter spells are definitely a problem).
Yes, it is powerful, but there are lots of 4-card combos that are busted.
Is it more busted than Ashnod's Altar + Nim deathmantle + a creature that combos with them (Sun Titan, Grave Titan and every other creature that makes a million tokens, Reveillark, Karmic Guide, ... even Marionette Master makes infinite tokens and drains infinitely)?
I get it that PE combos with a lot of things. But it is almost always a 4 card combo (very rarely 3 card) and you can't ban a card because of 4 card combos.
Here's the thing, though. Most combos - not all, your thing above with Ashnod's Altar, Nim Deathmantle and any of a wide range of creatures is a good example of the exception, as each of those cards are quite solid on its own - include one or more cards that aren't particularly strong on their own. Mike + Trike, for example... on its own Triskelion is a pretty weak card which rarely sees play except to take part in that combo. Most things which get broken with Paradox Engine are things that a deck might already do and which are just fine... but when you throw the Engine in, they get broken. Lots of decks run tons of mana rocks, a smaller but not insignificant number (especially elf decks) run a lot of mana dorks, Cryptolith Rite is a less-reliable but also less vulnerable option for any deck which runs a lot of creatures and would also like to make a lot of mana. None of these are a problem (unless you want to count the perpetual bugbears of Sol Ring and Mana Crypt being part of the suite of mana rocks, but that's pretty much irrelevant here). But when you toss Paradox Engine in with these things which are, on their own, fine, suddenly they become busted all to hell. When one card being added to the mix suddenly busts a bunch of different things that aren't otherwise broken then that card itself should be regarded as pretty suspect.
On its own, Chaos Wand isn't particularly powerful, but most decks that want to run it are probably going to run a lot of mana producers in order to be able to utilize it on a regular basis. That still isn't broken, just more effective than relying on lands alone to keep the Wand going. But once again, add Paradox Engine to the mix and things get insane and someone can take a really, really long turn while the other players just slowly sit by and watch their decks get used against them. Some might call that an undesirable game state. YMMV, of course.
I have PE in one of 16 decks. It would be terrible in the other decks. PoK on the other hand would be amazing in most of my decks. Artifacts and dorks are susceptible to board wipes. I play more cultivates than llanowar elves.
Playing so many dorks and rocks that you consistently have enough mana to use PE brings you another issue - you have bad topdecks and limited ways to abuse PE.
I understand why the card is good. I understand what decks you need to build around. I understand that the pieces are usually better on their own than Triskelion or Mind Over Matter or Laboratory Maniac. But these are not cards people consider banning and should not be compared.
My Karador deck can combo off with the Ashnod's altar combo, but I think I've only pulled it off once in 8 years. The pieces are all so synergistic, that there must be a dozen combos in the deck that all overlap with cards. Sun Titan and Reveillark are probably the biggest offenders. I would argue that it is easier to build a combo with Sun Titan than PE. But Sun Titan is never brought up in ban discussions.
When we look at cards to ban, it is not about how they are good under certain conditions. PoK was good in almost every UG(x) deck, and was played in 95% of the games I played while it was legal. Sylvan Primordial was too powerful when it entered the battlefield.
PE is not played enough to be banned. It is not too powerful by itself. When people build around it, it is easy to combo off with it. So is Reveillark. You brought up Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. I've never played Triskelion with it, but I have played creatures with persist. The game ends.
I think paradox engine is a very powerful card, but it isn't at all as broken as some people describe. I think it just gets negative attention from all the opponents that have to sit and watch the pilot fiddle with their mana-rocks and do math, just as anyone would when calculating storm count or figuring out other long sequential plays.
I myself use it as a permanent inclusion in a rakka mardeck just to make a few more tokens. The Rakka Mar deck doesn't need it at all to function, and is likely the fairest deck I've ever seen that runs paradox engine.
On the other end of the specturm, I also have it in a dedicated grixis paradox deck that uses it as a tool to try and win the game via searing touch or whatever. That list is old and needs updated, since the deck also runs Isochron Scepter+Dramatic Reversal as well. Before I added scepter+reversal, the deck concedes if someone extracted the paradox engine. It's just bad deck building to rely on a single 5-cmc artifact as a singular win-con, and I did it for months, and my deck failed for months because I felt adding scepter+reversal would make it too unfun, unfair, and competitive for my group.
Since I added scepter+reversal the deck has become unfun, unfair, and too competitive for my group. But hey, it doesn't fail to extract, now it just fails to sadistic sacrament
Another thing I'd like to point out is the actual power-level of the card in comparison to various competitive deck strengths. I've recently tested it in a black+red storm deck as a mana-generation tool over mass drawing + inner fire (extensive log here). This is not at all a "competitive" storm deck, but it is a very strong deck. Guess what? Paradox Engine, while very strong and stable at making mana, was slower (thus worse) than relying on a spell from saviors of kamigawa . Yes it does dumb things with draw engines (like azami/recycle/null profusion), but the speed is the issue. Many "competitive" decks can win while the paradox engine deck is playing out mana-rocks.
TLDR and personal opinion time; the card falls in the category of easily broken victory enablers, but mainly for strong groups. Not hyper-competitive groups. This card is not an actual win-con, but it's just another card that can be used to cause an inevitable victory if it isn't answered. Being in this category it is also pretty low on the power-level, since it dies to disenchant, but other cards in this category have much fewer answers and also typically immediately win (like primal surge or tooth and nail). Also as previously mentioned, if it's included as a win-con enabler, it really does warp the deck it's included in, and punishes the player if they can't win any other way.
Now stop talking about banning this card, you are all upsetting my beloved Rakka Mar!
My issue with PE has always been the way in which it goes off. With something like Mike and Trike or Ashnod's Altar you just have to demonstrate the action one or two times and the table can decide if you sent infinite and won. But with PE it generally has to cast a chain of spells, all the while keeping track of floating mana, card draw, and triggers, just before you get to do something. So your opponents are unlikely to concede because you aren't actually going infinite, and they just kinda check out and play on their phones. And in my opinion, a card that does that is worse than one that just ends games.
My issue with PE has always been the way in which it goes off. With something like Mike and Trike or Ashnod's Altar you just have to demonstrate the action one or two times and the table can decide if you sent infinite and won. But with PE it generally has to cast a chain of spells, all the while keeping track of floating mana, card draw, and triggers, just before you get to do something. So your opponents are unlikely to concede because you aren't actually going infinite, and they just kinda check out and play on their phones. And in my opinion, a card that does that is worse than one that just ends games.
I think a lot of that has to do with the player themselves. If you can't play Paradox Engine at a reasonable pace you shouldn't include it in your deck. Not to mention that, for the most part, I've never actually seen PE go infinite. The average-case use tends to be something like "Float mana off my rocks, cast my hand, pass" in which case it acted like a glorified Mana Reflection or an Omniscience. I don't see a reason to ban PE.
I think a lot of that has to do with the player themselves. If you can't play Paradox Engine at a reasonable pace you shouldn't include it in your deck. Not to mention that, for the most part, I've never actually seen PE go infinite. The average-case use tends to be something like "Float mana off my rocks, cast my hand, pass" in which case it acted like a glorified Mana Reflection or an Omniscience. I don't see a reason to ban PE.
I've gone infinite, or at least arbitrarily infinite to draw my deck and cast it. I had as much fun as my opponents did and now I refuse to play it.
I've gone infinite, or at least arbitrarily infinite to draw my deck and cast it. I had as much fun as my opponents did and now I refuse to play it.
This was pretty much my experience as well. My deck is pretty innocent, and I often like to play busted Magic cards to see if I can use them fairly. Paradox Engine routinely ended up drawing my deck and casting it though, so I had to take it out of my deck because I wasn't enjoying the kinds of games it was creating.
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How are you guys drawing your decks so consistently with Paradox Engine?
It usually starts with Paradox Engine making an absurd amount of mana. Maybe I begin with something like a Gilded Lotus in play, something totally innocuous on its own. From there, my one mana spells suddenly make two mana, so I'll play a cantrip or something, and after two or so spells like that I'll have a hefty chunk of mana sitting in my mana pool. That's usually enough to cast some kind of big card draw spell like Recurring Insight, and then the cycle begins anew. Eventually, I draw into more mana rocks which make even more mana in turn, and then I'll have more mana than I know what to do with. Maybe I'll play some other card draw spell I drew into, or maybe I got some kind of recursion instead. Card draw and recursion just tends to beget more card draw and recursion, and the limiting factor is usually the amount of mana I have. Paradox Engine tends to throw that limitation out the window.
And this whole process takes forever to execute in real time too. I'm obviously being taxed mentally as I do this, but beyond that there's all this mana I have to keep track of, usually of different colors, and the amount of time it takes to literally tap and untap my cards all the time isn't negligible either. The whole experience is really exhausting.
When you plug Azami, Lady of Scrolls or any similar tap-draw effect it becomes easy to go further with PE combos
Sure, but then... you're playing an Azami deck. I find it hard to believe that said deck was fun to play against before you put a Paradox Engine in.
Basically my point is that there aren't many draw effects that combo well with PE that you would normally be playing in an EDH deck otherwise. Maybe Temple Bell but I mostly see that as a Mind over Matter combo piece around these parts. You can potentially have some sort of X draw spell to reload with, but at that point you're played multiple rocks, the PE itself, some number of spells beforehand to build up some floating mana, and then an X draw spell. That doesn't sound like PE took your deck to another level. That sounds like you drew a good combination of multiple synergistic cards and nobody stopped you.
I guess my point is that I think of Paradox Engine as basically a Mirari's Wake or any other mana doubler. If someone plays one you better get rid of it immediately or silly things are about to start happening. Granted, PE has an edge over other doublers because it is colorless, and it is easier to use the same turn it comes down, but I think that ultimately is a reflection of the broken mana rocks that enable such quick plays instead of a problem with PE itself. Like, do we think we'd be having this discussion at all if Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt were banned? I would assume no.
How are you guys drawing your decks so consistently with Paradox Engine?
In Rashmi, it isn't hard at all to effectively draw through most or all of my deck in a single turn. I run Future Sight to cast off the top of my deck, Soothsaying to set up my topdeck or shuffle past lands, and a bunch of draw spells so I can draw my way through lands and keep going, and with all the rocks (and any other non-land permanents) untapping every time I cast something, I have no problem floating a boatload of mana to cast whatever I draw.
With Chaos Wand, it wasn't hard to go all the way through opponents' decks casting whatever instants and sorceries I wished, either, because any time I ran into something I didn't want to cast, or couldn't cast (like a counterspell with no target), I could just put it at the bottom of their deck, cast some small thing from my own deck using some of the floating mana to cast the spell, untap the Wand (along with everything else non-land) and keep going. This was aided by my casting opponents' draw spells to keep my own grip full. I had to be careful to *not* deck myself, really. And unsurprisingly, even when I moved very quickly through repeated castings, other players got real bored watching me play solitaire. I found it as exhausting Axolotl describes as well. At one point I was using 8 or 9 d20s to indicate how much blue, green and colorless mana I had floating.
And again, this isn't even a deck which is anything close to optimized. I run as many mana rocks in some other decks, and similar amounts of card draw in some other decks, and I'm pretty sure that if I tossed Paradox Engine into them, I could pull off something pretty similar, if perhaps a bit less smooth without the benefit of things like Future Sight and Soothsaying which are normally not particularly broken cards. I could probably do something similar in my Gahiji token-swarm deck, which includes things like Captain Sisay, Dragon Throne of Tarkir, a few mana dorks, a few mana rocks, Cryptolith Rite, Kessig Wolf Run, Rhys the Redeemed and spells like Rishkar's Expertise and Shamanic Revelation, using the dorks/rocks to make arbitrarily huge numbers of tokens and make one or more creatures really large and draw and cast most or all of my deck.
Similar to others, it was a Mizzex deck, so I was already drawing cards and getting mana discounts. I consider myself a decent casual player, but tracking how much mana I float and use, triggers, storm count, and number of cards drawn was just a major pain in the ass.
I just use whispers of the muse in my grixis deck, but drawing the deck isn't necessary to win.
In my Rakka Mar deck, since paradox engine isn't the goal, it doesn't have as many focused cantrip/draw effects. But it can dig pretty deep if I'm lucky to see a few cards (wheel of fortune/reforge the soul and commune with lava being the best). The way paradox engine works in that deck is I typically hold it back until I can stick Rakka and a few colorful rocks, then cast it and dump my hand, hopefully gaining a meaningful board of 3/1 tokens to swarm with. If I'm lucky enough to see a higher volume of mana-rocks and random faithless looting effects then sweet, the deck "went off" in an unusual way.
I guess my point is that I think of Paradox Engine as basically a Mirari's Wake or any other mana doubler. If someone plays one you better get rid of it immediately or silly things are about to start happening. Granted, PE has an edge over other doublers because it is colorless, and it is easier to use the same turn it comes down, but I think that ultimately is a reflection of the broken mana rocks that enable such quick plays instead of a problem with PE itself. Like, do we think we'd be having this discussion at all if Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt were banned? I would assume no.
One really shouldn't assume. I do run Mana Crypt and Sol Ring in my Rashmi deck, and certainly they contribute to brokenness, but I've gone off with Paradox Engine with just things like Gilded Lotus, Sky Diamond, Mind Stone and Birds of Paradise. It just plain makes all of those sorts of cards, and things like Cryptolith Rite, and stuff like Captain Sisay and other creatures and artifacts with tap-to-activate abilities, so much better. Not that there aren't other ways to untap things, but there aren't many that do it all at once and over and over again within a turn with so much ease (the Iso-Reverasl combo is the only one I can think of at the moment), and all at the cost of adding just one card to stuff you could (and often would) be running anyhow.
Similar to others, it was a Mizzex deck, so I was already drawing cards and getting mana discounts. I consider myself a decent casual player, but tracking how much mana I float and use, triggers, storm count, and number of cards drawn was just a major pain in the ass.
I play PE in Maelstrom Wanderer and in Phenax, god of deception. In Phenax, it is like another intruder alarm effect, and I don't believe the deck can go infinite with it. I don't play that many mana rocks so I don't have much to track either. However, my MW can very easily combo with it, and with cascade, it becomes a nightmare to track. The good thing is that it is easy to demonstrate that I can go infinite in the deck. MW triggers PE 3 times every time I cast it, so I just need 3 mana from dorks or rocks and a way to bounce MW to cast my whole deck. (That being said, I have only done this goldfishing and PE has never actually done anything in any game it has resolved).
Since I play PE in Standard, I am somewhat used to tracking everything, but I agree it can be a pain, especially if it doesn't lead to the end of the game. It's like the Mishra Eggs storm decks that never quite get a high enough storm count.
One really shouldn't assume. I do run Mana Crypt and Sol Ring in my Rashmi deck, and certainly they contribute to brokenness, but I've gone off with Paradox Engine with just things like Gilded Lotus, Sky Diamond, Mind Stone and Birds of Paradise. It just plain makes all of those sorts of cards, and things like Cryptolith Rite, and stuff like Captain Sisay and other creatures and artifacts with tap-to-activate abilities, so much better. Not that there aren't other ways to untap things, but there aren't many that do it all at once and over and over again within a turn with so much ease (the Iso-Reverasl combo is the only one I can think of at the moment), and all at the cost of adding just one card to stuff you could (and often would) be running anyhow.
I don't particularly disagree, but so what? Gilded Lotus + Paradox Engine is 10 mana worth of artifacts. A Sky Diamond with a Paradox Engine out is essentially a Sapphire Medallion for any spell. These things aren't particularly broken or ban worthy. Cryptolith Rite is pretty gross with PE but it also requires having multiple creatures in play plus an artifact and enchantment.
I'm not going to lose any sleep if PE ends up banned, but to me it seems like a epitome of an EDH card. It's what the format is about. Doesn't really deserve a ban for that.
How are you guys drawing your decks so consistently with Paradox Engine?
My only deck the currently runs Paradox Engine is Oloro, and it can go infinite with something like Isochron Scepter imprinting almost anything and Pristine Talisman (and 2 more mana from nonlands) if Oloro is on the battlefield. Then I can draw any number of cards, and all of my opponents lose a life for each card I draw.
I mean, just Scepter and 2 nonland mana is sufficient to get infinite storm count with PE, but if that's all I've got then it depends heavily on what I have imprinted as to how useful it is.
It's definitely a big splashy EDH card, but at the same time I'm hard pressed to not see how it doesn't "create undesirable game states".
This has been on my mind for a bit actually.
From my experience, the undesirable game states are almost always caused by slow-plays from a pilot that may not be very familiar with running paradox engine yet, or has a hard time tracking math/mana from casting multiple spells on the same turn. It's a different sort of "undesirable game" compared to what some other cards in this format cause (clix/winter orb/armageddon/expropriate or green ramp decks spam-casting & returning time stretch).
It may just be my own group where paradox engine isn't considered "broken," but just tedious when a new pilot picks it up.
For some of us, the paradox engine mana-generation learning curve took about two seconds to figure out. But some players may take a while, or never figure it out. It could be that the pilot is just terrible at tracking math and retaining some numbers in their head. More likely it is from their group giving them grief for playing slowly, or not seeing the victory fast enough.
True story time; a local friend built an Azami paradox engine deck and dismantled it within a week due to another rude friend complaining about long turns, and over-playing when they could have already won. The pilot was just never given enough room to practice and figure out their deck. Months later I built my grixis paradox deck, and that same player started borrowing it. He still loves to borrow it to this day and 1v1 me, and his speed and processing of how that deck runs is much quicker now than it was when he first borrowed it. The sad part is he doesn't want to build his own paradox engine deck since he thinks the other guy will complain towards him again too much. He doesn't even want to borrow my grixis deck at the 4-player for whatever reason.
I think if a playgroup has an issue with this card then it's actually an opportunity to help the player learn how to pilot their deck better and faster. Hopefully the group has patience and doesn't bark suggestions and try to rush or discourage the pilot.
IMO this card actually offers an opportunity to help players become better at planning out their entire turn, navigate complex plays, and it really makes them consider mana conservation and when to deploy spells. These are the same skills that can be used outside of a deck using paradox engine. It's not even a skill intensive card, but getting good with it can really help improve a player.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
It's definitely a big splashy EDH card, but at the same time I'm hard pressed to not see how it doesn't "create undesirable game states".
Cryogen, I feel like you are mis-appropriating 'creates undesirable game states'. Leovold was banned because it locked people out of the game, creating an undesirable game state. Sundering Titan was banned for similar reasons.
Winning the game is not undesirable. Stopping opponents from playing is undesirable.
The only undesirable thing about PE is the long turns some people take.
Have there been any EDH bans for slow play consideration? I don't think so...
Here's the thing, though. Most combos - not all, your thing above with Ashnod's Altar, Nim Deathmantle and any of a wide range of creatures is a good example of the exception, as each of those cards are quite solid on its own - include one or more cards that aren't particularly strong on their own. Mike + Trike, for example... on its own Triskelion is a pretty weak card which rarely sees play except to take part in that combo. Most things which get broken with Paradox Engine are things that a deck might already do and which are just fine... but when you throw the Engine in, they get broken. Lots of decks run tons of mana rocks, a smaller but not insignificant number (especially elf decks) run a lot of mana dorks, Cryptolith Rite is a less-reliable but also less vulnerable option for any deck which runs a lot of creatures and would also like to make a lot of mana. None of these are a problem (unless you want to count the perpetual bugbears of Sol Ring and Mana Crypt being part of the suite of mana rocks, but that's pretty much irrelevant here). But when you toss Paradox Engine in with these things which are, on their own, fine, suddenly they become busted all to hell. When one card being added to the mix suddenly busts a bunch of different things that aren't otherwise broken then that card itself should be regarded as pretty suspect.
On its own, Chaos Wand isn't particularly powerful, but most decks that want to run it are probably going to run a lot of mana producers in order to be able to utilize it on a regular basis. That still isn't broken, just more effective than relying on lands alone to keep the Wand going. But once again, add Paradox Engine to the mix and things get insane and someone can take a really, really long turn while the other players just slowly sit by and watch their decks get used against them. Some might call that an undesirable game state. YMMV, of course.
What, exactly, is degenerate about running a bunch of mana rocks or mana dorks? Lots of decks run those things anyhow. Same with just about everything else that is broken with Paradox Engine. That's the problem, just tossing Paradox Engine into the mix breaks a lot of things which aren't otherwise broken.
Which isn't to say Iso-Reversal isn't crazy good, too. It is. But, note that Isochron Scepter is another of the cards (like Chaos Wand) that becomes busted with Paradox Engine and a couple mana rocks, since casting the spell imprinted on the Scepter will untap the Scepter and the rocks, allowing one to cast the imprinted spell over and over. That's irrelevant in the case of Iso-Reversal, but it busts a whole lot of other things one might do with the Scepter.
The Scepter-Reversal Method has more overhead for sure but the mana is infinite once it begins so you need less things once it is running.
I have PE in one of 16 decks. It would be terrible in the other decks. PoK on the other hand would be amazing in most of my decks. Artifacts and dorks are susceptible to board wipes. I play more cultivates than llanowar elves.
Playing so many dorks and rocks that you consistently have enough mana to use PE brings you another issue - you have bad topdecks and limited ways to abuse PE.
I understand why the card is good. I understand what decks you need to build around. I understand that the pieces are usually better on their own than Triskelion or Mind Over Matter or Laboratory Maniac. But these are not cards people consider banning and should not be compared.
My Karador deck can combo off with the Ashnod's altar combo, but I think I've only pulled it off once in 8 years. The pieces are all so synergistic, that there must be a dozen combos in the deck that all overlap with cards. Sun Titan and Reveillark are probably the biggest offenders. I would argue that it is easier to build a combo with Sun Titan than PE. But Sun Titan is never brought up in ban discussions.
When we look at cards to ban, it is not about how they are good under certain conditions. PoK was good in almost every UG(x) deck, and was played in 95% of the games I played while it was legal. Sylvan Primordial was too powerful when it entered the battlefield.
PE is not played enough to be banned. It is not too powerful by itself. When people build around it, it is easy to combo off with it. So is Reveillark. You brought up Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. I've never played Triskelion with it, but I have played creatures with persist. The game ends.
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I myself use it as a permanent inclusion in a rakka mar deck just to make a few more tokens. The Rakka Mar deck doesn't need it at all to function, and is likely the fairest deck I've ever seen that runs paradox engine.
On the other end of the specturm, I also have it in a dedicated grixis paradox deck that uses it as a tool to try and win the game via searing touch or whatever. That list is old and needs updated, since the deck also runs Isochron Scepter+Dramatic Reversal as well. Before I added scepter+reversal, the deck concedes if someone extracted the paradox engine. It's just bad deck building to rely on a single 5-cmc artifact as a singular win-con, and I did it for months, and my deck failed for months because I felt adding scepter+reversal would make it too unfun, unfair, and competitive for my group.
Since I added scepter+reversal the deck has become unfun, unfair, and too competitive for my group. But hey, it doesn't fail to extract, now it just fails to sadistic sacrament
Another thing I'd like to point out is the actual power-level of the card in comparison to various competitive deck strengths. I've recently tested it in a black+red storm deck as a mana-generation tool over mass drawing + inner fire (extensive log here). This is not at all a "competitive" storm deck, but it is a very strong deck. Guess what? Paradox Engine, while very strong and stable at making mana, was slower (thus worse) than relying on a spell from saviors of kamigawa . Yes it does dumb things with draw engines (like azami/recycle/null profusion), but the speed is the issue. Many "competitive" decks can win while the paradox engine deck is playing out mana-rocks.
TLDR and personal opinion time; the card falls in the category of easily broken victory enablers, but mainly for strong groups. Not hyper-competitive groups. This card is not an actual win-con, but it's just another card that can be used to cause an inevitable victory if it isn't answered. Being in this category it is also pretty low on the power-level, since it dies to disenchant, but other cards in this category have much fewer answers and also typically immediately win (like primal surge or tooth and nail). Also as previously mentioned, if it's included as a win-con enabler, it really does warp the deck it's included in, and punishes the player if they can't win any other way.
Now stop talking about banning this card, you are all upsetting my beloved Rakka Mar!
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I've gone infinite, or at least arbitrarily infinite to draw my deck and cast it. I had as much fun as my opponents did and now I refuse to play it.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
And this whole process takes forever to execute in real time too. I'm obviously being taxed mentally as I do this, but beyond that there's all this mana I have to keep track of, usually of different colors, and the amount of time it takes to literally tap and untap my cards all the time isn't negligible either. The whole experience is really exhausting.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Basically my point is that there aren't many draw effects that combo well with PE that you would normally be playing in an EDH deck otherwise. Maybe Temple Bell but I mostly see that as a Mind over Matter combo piece around these parts. You can potentially have some sort of X draw spell to reload with, but at that point you're played multiple rocks, the PE itself, some number of spells beforehand to build up some floating mana, and then an X draw spell. That doesn't sound like PE took your deck to another level. That sounds like you drew a good combination of multiple synergistic cards and nobody stopped you.
I guess my point is that I think of Paradox Engine as basically a Mirari's Wake or any other mana doubler. If someone plays one you better get rid of it immediately or silly things are about to start happening. Granted, PE has an edge over other doublers because it is colorless, and it is easier to use the same turn it comes down, but I think that ultimately is a reflection of the broken mana rocks that enable such quick plays instead of a problem with PE itself. Like, do we think we'd be having this discussion at all if Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt were banned? I would assume no.
In Rashmi, it isn't hard at all to effectively draw through most or all of my deck in a single turn. I run Future Sight to cast off the top of my deck, Soothsaying to set up my topdeck or shuffle past lands, and a bunch of draw spells so I can draw my way through lands and keep going, and with all the rocks (and any other non-land permanents) untapping every time I cast something, I have no problem floating a boatload of mana to cast whatever I draw.
With Chaos Wand, it wasn't hard to go all the way through opponents' decks casting whatever instants and sorceries I wished, either, because any time I ran into something I didn't want to cast, or couldn't cast (like a counterspell with no target), I could just put it at the bottom of their deck, cast some small thing from my own deck using some of the floating mana to cast the spell, untap the Wand (along with everything else non-land) and keep going. This was aided by my casting opponents' draw spells to keep my own grip full. I had to be careful to *not* deck myself, really. And unsurprisingly, even when I moved very quickly through repeated castings, other players got real bored watching me play solitaire. I found it as exhausting Axolotl describes as well. At one point I was using 8 or 9 d20s to indicate how much blue, green and colorless mana I had floating.
And again, this isn't even a deck which is anything close to optimized. I run as many mana rocks in some other decks, and similar amounts of card draw in some other decks, and I'm pretty sure that if I tossed Paradox Engine into them, I could pull off something pretty similar, if perhaps a bit less smooth without the benefit of things like Future Sight and Soothsaying which are normally not particularly broken cards. I could probably do something similar in my Gahiji token-swarm deck, which includes things like Captain Sisay, Dragon Throne of Tarkir, a few mana dorks, a few mana rocks, Cryptolith Rite, Kessig Wolf Run, Rhys the Redeemed and spells like Rishkar's Expertise and Shamanic Revelation, using the dorks/rocks to make arbitrarily huge numbers of tokens and make one or more creatures really large and draw and cast most or all of my deck.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
In my Rakka Mar deck, since paradox engine isn't the goal, it doesn't have as many focused cantrip/draw effects. But it can dig pretty deep if I'm lucky to see a few cards (wheel of fortune/reforge the soul and commune with lava being the best). The way paradox engine works in that deck is I typically hold it back until I can stick Rakka and a few colorful rocks, then cast it and dump my hand, hopefully gaining a meaningful board of 3/1 tokens to swarm with. If I'm lucky enough to see a higher volume of mana-rocks and random faithless looting effects then sweet, the deck "went off" in an unusual way.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
One really shouldn't assume. I do run Mana Crypt and Sol Ring in my Rashmi deck, and certainly they contribute to brokenness, but I've gone off with Paradox Engine with just things like Gilded Lotus, Sky Diamond, Mind Stone and Birds of Paradise. It just plain makes all of those sorts of cards, and things like Cryptolith Rite, and stuff like Captain Sisay and other creatures and artifacts with tap-to-activate abilities, so much better. Not that there aren't other ways to untap things, but there aren't many that do it all at once and over and over again within a turn with so much ease (the Iso-Reverasl combo is the only one I can think of at the moment), and all at the cost of adding just one card to stuff you could (and often would) be running anyhow.
I play PE in Maelstrom Wanderer and in Phenax, god of deception. In Phenax, it is like another intruder alarm effect, and I don't believe the deck can go infinite with it. I don't play that many mana rocks so I don't have much to track either. However, my MW can very easily combo with it, and with cascade, it becomes a nightmare to track. The good thing is that it is easy to demonstrate that I can go infinite in the deck. MW triggers PE 3 times every time I cast it, so I just need 3 mana from dorks or rocks and a way to bounce MW to cast my whole deck. (That being said, I have only done this goldfishing and PE has never actually done anything in any game it has resolved).
Since I play PE in Standard, I am somewhat used to tracking everything, but I agree it can be a pain, especially if it doesn't lead to the end of the game. It's like the Mishra Eggs storm decks that never quite get a high enough storm count.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I'm not going to lose any sleep if PE ends up banned, but to me it seems like a epitome of an EDH card. It's what the format is about. Doesn't really deserve a ban for that.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I mean, just Scepter and 2 nonland mana is sufficient to get infinite storm count with PE, but if that's all I've got then it depends heavily on what I have imprinted as to how useful it is.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
This has been on my mind for a bit actually.
From my experience, the undesirable game states are almost always caused by slow-plays from a pilot that may not be very familiar with running paradox engine yet, or has a hard time tracking math/mana from casting multiple spells on the same turn. It's a different sort of "undesirable game" compared to what some other cards in this format cause (clix/winter orb/armageddon/expropriate or green ramp decks spam-casting & returning time stretch).
It may just be my own group where paradox engine isn't considered "broken," but just tedious when a new pilot picks it up.
For some of us, the paradox engine mana-generation learning curve took about two seconds to figure out. But some players may take a while, or never figure it out. It could be that the pilot is just terrible at tracking math and retaining some numbers in their head. More likely it is from their group giving them grief for playing slowly, or not seeing the victory fast enough.
True story time; a local friend built an Azami paradox engine deck and dismantled it within a week due to another rude friend complaining about long turns, and over-playing when they could have already won. The pilot was just never given enough room to practice and figure out their deck. Months later I built my grixis paradox deck, and that same player started borrowing it. He still loves to borrow it to this day and 1v1 me, and his speed and processing of how that deck runs is much quicker now than it was when he first borrowed it. The sad part is he doesn't want to build his own paradox engine deck since he thinks the other guy will complain towards him again too much. He doesn't even want to borrow my grixis deck at the 4-player for whatever reason.
I think if a playgroup has an issue with this card then it's actually an opportunity to help the player learn how to pilot their deck better and faster. Hopefully the group has patience and doesn't bark suggestions and try to rush or discourage the pilot.
IMO this card actually offers an opportunity to help players become better at planning out their entire turn, navigate complex plays, and it really makes them consider mana conservation and when to deploy spells. These are the same skills that can be used outside of a deck using paradox engine. It's not even a skill intensive card, but getting good with it can really help improve a player.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Cryogen, I feel like you are mis-appropriating 'creates undesirable game states'. Leovold was banned because it locked people out of the game, creating an undesirable game state. Sundering Titan was banned for similar reasons.
Winning the game is not undesirable. Stopping opponents from playing is undesirable.
The only undesirable thing about PE is the long turns some people take.
Have there been any EDH bans for slow play consideration? I don't think so...
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers