We also both know Hulk was banned almost a decade ago and they can't seem to bring up any good arguments for it's current ban anymore, but let's not make this discussion about Hulk and instead focus on the Engine which is still far from bannable. It's only been out a few weeks, I think it'll slowly taper off in popularity in the next few months. Right after release is usually a poor time to discuss a card's bannability.
Independent on your opinions of that card, the cascade effect is a reason cited for remaining banned, and that is a similarity that I suspect we will see with Paradox Engine.
I feel I should mention again (unless it wasn't clear before) that I'm not actually in favor of banning it, simply adding my single experience and opinions to the thread.
Why do you even compare Hulk to Engine? How are they similiar? One is a card that wins on spot when leaves the battlefield and in that way I'd rather compare it to TnN than to Engine. Hulk can be easily abused by flashing and reanimateing it while PE is a build-around card which needs specific board position and draw engine to perform.
I'll lose all hope in RC if they ban such a cool card that requires specific deck building and assembling specific board position to be good. I see dozens of people discussig possible ban but so far I've seen no one who actually wants that ban. This is so much different from the cases of prophet or primordial... I don't see Engine being banned anytime soon because hardly anyone actually complains about it.
I think some people are wary of it because it can at least in theory be pretty broken, but I think to really break it, one has to build around it, and at that point it really isn't that much different than any number of cards... and even then I don't think it will be quite as broken in most decks as are the sort of combo plays one finds in a more competitive metagame. But, personally I'm going to keep watching what it does in those of my decks which aren't built around it, and see how my experiment goes, and continue to watch what I see it do in others' decks (not too much to date, but it's early) before making up my mind. As far as anyone knows, Paradox Engine might not even be on the RC's radar. I'd honestly be kind of surprised if it was.
Honestly if you're pointing at the "cascade effect", then why is Tooth and Nail still unbanned? Or heck, Birthing Pod? Cards like that only get better with age...
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Why do you even compare Hulk to Engine? How are they similiar? One is a card that wins on spot when leaves the battlefield and in that way I'd rather compare it to TnN than to Engine. Hulk can be easily abused by flashing and reanimateing it while PE is a build-around card which needs specific board position and draw engine to perform.
I'll lose all hope in RC if they ban such a cool card that requires specific deck building and assembling specific board position to be good. I see dozens of people discussig possible ban but so far I've seen no one who actually wants that ban. This is so much different from the cases of prophet or primordial... I don't see Engine being banned anytime soon because hardly anyone actually complains about it.
So you're saying Hulk isn't a card that requires you to build around? I'm confused.
Honestly if you're pointing at the "cascade effect", then why is Tooth and Nail still unbanned? Or heck, Birthing Pod? Cards like that only get better with age...
Don't care, that's an argument for another thread and if you think that it is as applicable for those cards as it was for Hulk, maybe you should bring it up there. Like I said, one of the reasons given for why Hulk was banned is because you included it to do one thing, and slowly you started adding more cards to make it even better, until eventually the game is centered around Hulk. I can see the same mentality applying to Paradox Engine just from my limited use of it.
You'll notice that I am not giving my opinion on whether I think this cascade mentality is the right call or not, because my opinion is largely irrelevant. However, since that is one of thr stated reason for banning a card, it should also be something to consider for other cards. I don't find the card to be particularly ubiquitous, there is no barrier to entry, gross power level, or any other reason to ban the card, so again, I AM NOT ADVOCATING TO BAN THIS CARD.
So you're saying Hulk isn't a card that requires you to build around? I'm confused.
You can flash Hulk onto the battlefield in t2 and win the same turn and the only requirement is having combo somewhere in your deck. With engine you can't that easily cheat it into play in the first place, and even if you do, you still need rocks/dorks, some draw engine and cards in hand. Yeah, they both need specific build around strategies but engine isn't nearly as easy to break as Hulk.
There are so many build around cards with the cascade effect you mention which aren't banned that it would be quite strange to choose the Engine as the one which should be removed from the format. Ad Nauseam, Tooth and Nail, Deadeye Navigator, Hermit Druid or Food Chain also tend to have this cascade effect and still remain unbanned. I understand that the Engine is colorless but it still doesn't go into 90% of decks, cause to use it properly your build has to be quite tuned for it to do anything good.
I would say if you are trying to break it, you can use arcum dagsson or captain sisay to search out the engine and win almost on the spot for a similar number of decks slots as protean hulk, in fewer colors.
But that's not what I'm worried about, I'm worried about players gradually adding more mana rocks and draw spells to their deck until paradox engine ends up being a 5 mana game win with otherwise fair ramp and draw.
In competitive decks, it is a combo piece no more broken than Boonweaver Giant or Palinchron.
In less-competitive builds, it is not Prophet of Kruphix. It isn't all around good all the time. PoK was also very easy to protect, as it would untap your lands the next turn and let you play countermagic.
You need specific cards to be in play for it to do anything. You also need a constant source of cards to cast. Protecting it is hard, as you can't just cast this on turn 5 and immediately have mana to protect it. It literally does nothing by itself.
Sure, Selvala is broken with it. Selvala is also broken with Umbral Mantle.
So, last night I did finally see a deck in which Paradox Engine was pretty darn broken. It was a Captain Sisay deck, in which Captain Sisay's ability was used to fetch first Selvala, Explorer Returned then the Engine, then Nykthos, Shrine to Nix. I don't even recall if the Sisay player had any mana rocks in play; if so, it was only 1 or 2, but Selvala's parley ability helped provide ongoing mana, as well as providing draw, while Sisay kept powering out small but additive threats.
Was this broken enough to justify a ban? No, I don't think so. A boardwipe broke things up pretty nicely, though the threats kept coming back due to various white and green recursion until someone took out Sisay's graveyard. It was definitely bonkers, but it was built with a lot of synergy to make the most of Sisay and Selvala's abilities, and specifically to break Paradox Engine. The player recognized this as pretty broken and took out the Engine after that game, to his credit.
So, last night I did finally see a deck in which Paradox Engine was pretty darn broken. It was a Captain Sisay deck, in which Captain Sisay's ability was used to fetch first Selvala, Explorer Returned then the Engine, then Nykthos, Shrine to Nix. I don't even recall if the Sisay player had any mana rocks in play; if so, it was only 1 or 2, but Selvala's parley ability helped provide ongoing mana, as well as providing draw, while Sisay kept powering out small but additive threats.
Was this broken enough to justify a ban? No, I don't think so. A boardwipe broke things up pretty nicely, though the threats kept coming back due to various white and green recursion until someone took out Sisay's graveyard. It was definitely bonkers, but it was built with a lot of synergy to make the most of Sisay and Selvala's abilities, and specifically to break Paradox Engine. The player recognized this as pretty broken and took out the Engine after that game, to his credit.
Sisay, built right, has a game win if these conditions are met now:
Any combination of non-land mana sources that produce 2 mana. This can be a sol ring, 2 dorks, a dork and a mindstone, etc.
Able to use Sisay
Able to generate 5 mana total and then cast a spell (any spell)
So, last night I did finally see a deck in which Paradox Engine was pretty darn broken. It was a Captain Sisay deck, in which Captain Sisay's ability was used to fetch first Selvala, Explorer Returned then the Engine, then Nykthos, Shrine to Nix. I don't even recall if the Sisay player had any mana rocks in play; if so, it was only 1 or 2, but Selvala's parley ability helped provide ongoing mana, as well as providing draw, while Sisay kept powering out small but additive threats.
Was this broken enough to justify a ban? No, I don't think so. A boardwipe broke things up pretty nicely, though the threats kept coming back due to various white and green recursion until someone took out Sisay's graveyard. It was definitely bonkers, but it was built with a lot of synergy to make the most of Sisay and Selvala's abilities, and specifically to break Paradox Engine. The player recognized this as pretty broken and took out the Engine after that game, to his credit.
Sisay, built right, has a game win if these conditions are met now:
Any combination of non-land mana sources that produce 2 mana. This can be a sol ring, 2 dorks, a dork and a mindstone, etc.
Able to use Sisay
Able to generate 5 mana total and then cast a spell (any spell)
Sure. Whatever. People can, and unfortunately will, build broken-ass decks. And I fail to see how this is any more broken than any other combo. Keep in mind "building right" allowing combo players to exploit and break a card isn't a ban criteria. If that were the case, lots of combo cards would already be banned.
It will be interesting to see, though, as Paradox Engine is used more, whether people start running more rocks than usual or running more mana dorks (something most non-elf decks try to limit since they all go bye the first time a boardwipe occurs). If that happens, then we'd be seeing evidence that the Engine is warping the greater metagame, and that would potentially be grounds for banning. Not seeing any evidence of that so far, though.
So, today I finalized the initial draft of my experiment deck, Rashmi's Eternity Engine. The experment was to see how broken Paradox Engine can be in a deck which is built to take advantage of the card, but which is not at all optimized or competitive.
The answer, as Cryogen had suggested would be the case based on his own experience with the card, is "pretty damn broken."
First off, some things about my deck. It runs 10 mana rocks, which is more than usual for me, as well as a couple of mana dorks, a couple ramp spells and Cryptolith Rite. It runs Paradox Engine and several cards which can tutor for it, including Fabricate, Inventors' Fair and Whir of Invention. It runs a very high percentage of instants and sorceries, plus some flash enablers (Leyline of Anticipation, Vedalken Orrery, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir). Because of the high percentage of sorceries and instants, I included Talrand, Sky Summoner, and that gave me the idea to go with a token subtheme, enabled by Metallurgic Summoning and Fable of Wolf and Owl (a card I've always wanted to run, but never found a place for), plus Sprout Swarm, which is obviously insane with Paradox Engine. I also included some library manipulation and play-from-the-library effects, including a few scry cards, Sylvan Library, Brainstorm, Soothsaying, Future Sight and Courser of Kruphix (I didn't have an extra copy of Oracle of Mul Daya). I ran fewer threats than usual, opting instead to use a couple of clones (Clever Impersonator, Phyrexian Metamorph) and some clone spells such as Saheeli's Artistry to copy my opponents' threats. I also played an abnormally low land count (32, mostly basic lands), figuring the high number of rocks and the dorks would make up for it. Rounding out the deck are some blue card draw instants, several counterspells (mostly 3-cmc exile counters), and a selection of removal such as Krosan Grip, Curse of the Swine and Beast Within. The deck's game plan is to win mostly via card advantage, offered by Rashmi and later by combining draw, library manipulation and Paradox Engine to cast enough threats, or make enough tokens, to overwhelm opponents. I included one overrun effect (Overwhelming Stampede) and one haste enabler (Akroma's Memorial). The plan was to get Paradox Engine into play as soon as I could cast it and be reasonably assured of keeping it in play for a few turns.
The results were pretty interesting. Early during the first game, before I did anything too broken, someone commented that this seemed unlike my typical decks, as I played more rocks than usual. One game a very good opening let me play Rashmi on turn 2 due to a turn 1 Sol Ring; every other game she was out on 3 or 4, as I always had 3 lands and a rock or dork out by then. I never had a problem with the low land count, as each game I got at least one mana dork or CMC = 2 rock in my opening hand. Rashmi offers great card advantage from the turn after you play her, and allowed me to almost never miss a land drop, again despite the low count... and when I did miss one, it was not a problem, because I always had a couple of rocks and several lands out by then. Several times I cast a spell and got a rock or dork as my "free" spell, even when I didn't have any repeatable library manipulation in play; once I did get the library manipulation on line, it got a bit silly.
Each game I tried to get Paradox Engine out as soon as I had a couple of rocks and/or dorks, and one or more counters in hand. I sometimes cast it as early as turn 5 via drawing into it or tutoring turn 4. Usually it was a few turns after that, except one game in which someone went infinite on turn 6 or so, as he pulled out a more competitive deck for a spin because he wanted to get one more game in but have it be a short one because he had to leave soon. That particular game, I was flooded with mana - lands, rocks and a couple dorks - but never drew into Paradox Engine or anything else that let me use those resources.
I won the very first game by getting Paradox Engine out while I already had Cryptolith Rite and a couple rocks, plus Future Sight and Soothsaying. Soothsaying, of all things, turned out pretty insane, because I could tap my stuff for a bunch of mana, cast a small spell, untap, etc, then spend several mana to dig 10-12 cards deep, stack the deck then keep playing off my topdeck. A wrath slowed me down briefly, but I managed to keep the Engine in play because I was holding a couple counterspells, and when I finally drew Sprout Swarm, it was game over, as the mana I was able to generate by untapping the rocks let me dig for Akroma's Memorial.
I won two other games, putting my deck at 3/6 for the evening in a four-man pod, despite being the archenemy most of the time due to my showing in game 1. I never went infinite again, but the advantage offered by just Rashmi, Paradox Engine and a few rocks was pretty solid, and let me cast some big threats, clone them, then beat face. One game it was Stormtide Leviathan with Blade of Selves. Another it was a clone of an opponent's Gisela and two cloned Baneslayer Angels, plus a small swarm of bird and wolf tokens. Whenever I drew into Cryptolith Rite, it was insane. Of the games I lost, one time I was never in the game due to drawing into nothing but mana, and the other two times, opponents studiously kept Rashmi off the table as much as possible and went all-out to take out key components of my engines, including (obviously) Paradox Engine but also Cryptolith Rite. I never encountered any significant amount of artifact hate during the evening's games, though I did have to counter an overloaded Vandalblast once. More commonly, my mana dorks didn't last long, and the occasional boardwipe would serve to keep Cryptolith Rite from getting too badly out of hand most games.
I think this deck is a bit more broken than how I tend to play, but that is with me essentially trying to break it. It certainly isn't as broken as a lot of what people who build competitively play, but it was still more than broken enough for my taste. And that's with no tutors to be able to fetch some of the enchantments (Sylvan Library, Future Sight, Cryptolith Rite, Soothsaying) that really made it work well. In a build with enchantment tutors - say, Bant - I think Paradox Engine could be more than what most people who don't like competitive EDH would want to deal with. As is, the card advantage offered by Rashmi allowed me to draw into one or more of those with some regularity.
I don't think I'll keep this deck around for long in its current form. It isn't really a competitive deck, but it is more competitive than I like to play. If nothing else, I will be taking out Sprout Swarm, as it easily goes infinite with a few mana and Paradox Engine, and I don't like infinite combos. I might omit that, then keep my experiment going for a time, but I suspect I'm still going to find this too broken. Maybe I'll take out all of the artifact tutors, replacing them with draw spells. Making Paradox Engine less reliable to get in play will make it less broken, but I suspect that still won't matter much in any game where I can draw into it and keep it around a couple turns.
Initial impression, based on in-play data: Paradox Engine is pretty darn broken when built around, but not to a degree which I feel at this point would warrant banning. It certainly isn't as broken as a lot of other cards which are legal in the format. Further experimentation might help me form an opinion as to how broken it is in a deck which is built to use it but which isn't built around getting it into play.
As a result of this thread I decided to try out Paradox Engine in my Grand Arbiter Agustin IV deck, which is my one "anti-fun" deck that I play in competitive games. The deck currently runs 13 mana rocks. So far I've only played one game in which I got to play Paradox Engine, and it was... okay, I guess? It did let me use Mind Stone as a ritual to power out an Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, but that was basically the extent of it.
If anyone wants to test a particular card, what they SHOULD do is put said card in the command zone (CZ) with the commander. Except they cannot put it back into CZ. You don't wait to draw it or tutor for it. That's not efficient. What I'm proposing is active testing.
The other method is putting it in you opening hand, meaning 6+1, or after mulligan + test card.
So, today I finalized the initial draft of my experiment deck, Rashmi's Eternity Engine. The experment was to see how broken Paradox Engine can be in a deck which is built to take advantage of the card, but which is not at all optimized or competitive.
The answer, as Cryogen had suggested would be the case based on his own experience with the card, is "pretty damn broken."
First off, some things about my deck. It runs 10 mana rocks, which is more than usual for me, as well as a couple of mana dorks, a couple ramp spells and Cryptolith Rite. It runs Paradox Engine and several cards which can tutor for it, including Fabricate, Inventors' Fair and Whir of Invention. It runs a very high percentage of instants and sorceries, plus some flash enablers (Leyline of Anticipation, Vedalken Orrery, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir). Because of the high percentage of sorceries and instants, I included Talrand, Sky Summoner, and that gave me the idea to go with a token subtheme, enabled by Metallurgic Summoning and Fable of Wolf and Owl (a card I've always wanted to run, but never found a place for), plus Sprout Swarm, which is obviously insane with Paradox Engine. I also included some library manipulation and play-from-the-library effects, including a few scry cards, Sylvan Library, Brainstorm, Soothsaying, Future Sight and Courser of Kruphix (I didn't have an extra copy of Oracle of Mul Daya). I ran fewer threats than usual, opting instead to use a couple of clones (Clever Impersonator, Phyrexian Metamorph) and some clone spells such as Saheeli's Artistry to copy my opponents' threats. I also played an abnormally low land count (32, mostly basic lands), figuring the high number of rocks and the dorks would make up for it. Rounding out the deck are some blue card draw instants, several counterspells (mostly 3-cmc exile counters), and a selection of removal such as Krosan Grip, Curse of the Swine and Beast Within. The deck's game plan is to win mostly via card advantage, offered by Rashmi and later by combining draw, library manipulation and Paradox Engine to cast enough threats, or make enough tokens, to overwhelm opponents. I included one overrun effect (Overwhelming Stampede) and one haste enabler (Akroma's Memorial). The plan was to get Paradox Engine into play as soon as I could cast it and be reasonably assured of keeping it in play for a few turns.
The results were pretty interesting. Early during the first game, before I did anything too broken, someone commented that this seemed unlike my typical decks, as I played more rocks than usual. One game a very good opening let me play Rashmi on turn 2 due to a turn 1 Sol Ring; every other game she was out on 3 or 4, as I always had 3 lands and a rock or dork out by then. I never had a problem with the low land count, as each game I got at least one mana dork or CMC = 2 rock in my opening hand. Rashmi offers great card advantage from the turn after you play her, and allowed me to almost never miss a land drop, again despite the low count... and when I did miss one, it was not a problem, because I always had a couple of rocks and several lands out by then. Several times I cast a spell and got a rock or dork as my "free" spell, even when I didn't have any repeatable library manipulation in play; once I did get the library manipulation on line, it got a bit silly.
Each game I tried to get Paradox Engine out as soon as I had a couple of rocks and/or dorks, and one or more counters in hand. I sometimes cast it as early as turn 5 via drawing into it or tutoring turn 4. Usually it was a few turns after that, except one game in which someone went infinite on turn 6 or so, as he pulled out a more competitive deck for a spin because he wanted to get one more game in but have it be a short one because he had to leave soon. That particular game, I was flooded with mana - lands, rocks and a couple dorks - but never drew into Paradox Engine or anything else that let me use those resources.
I won the very first game by getting Paradox Engine out while I already had Cryptolith Rite and a couple rocks, plus Future Sight and Soothsaying. Soothsaying, of all things, turned out pretty insane, because I could tap my stuff for a bunch of mana, cast a small spell, untap, etc, then spend several mana to dig 10-12 cards deep, stack the deck then keep playing off my topdeck. A wrath slowed me down briefly, but I managed to keep the Engine in play because I was holding a couple counterspells, and when I finally drew Sprout Swarm, it was game over, as the mana I was able to generate by untapping the rocks let me dig for Akroma's Memorial.
I won two other games, putting my deck at 3/6 for the evening in a four-man pod, despite being the archenemy most of the time due to my showing in game 1. I never went infinite again, but the advantage offered by just Rashmi, Paradox Engine and a few rocks was pretty solid, and let me cast some big threats, clone them, then beat face. One game it was Stormtide Leviathan with Blade of Selves. Another it was a clone of an opponent's Gisela and two cloned Baneslayer Angels, plus a small swarm of bird and wolf tokens. Whenever I drew into Cryptolith Rite, it was insane. Of the games I lost, one time I was never in the game due to drawing into nothing but mana, and the other two times, opponents studiously kept Rashmi off the table as much as possible and went all-out to take out key components of my engines, including (obviously) Paradox Engine but also Cryptolith Rite. I never encountered any significant amount of artifact hate during the evening's games, though I did have to counter an overloaded Vandalblast once. More commonly, my mana dorks didn't last long, and the occasional boardwipe would serve to keep Cryptolith Rite from getting too badly out of hand most games.
I think this deck is a bit more broken than how I tend to play, but that is with me essentially trying to break it. It certainly isn't as broken as a lot of what people who build competitively play, but it was still more than broken enough for my taste. And that's with no tutors to be able to fetch some of the enchantments (Sylvan Library, Future Sight, Cryptolith Rite, Soothsaying) that really made it work well. In a build with enchantment tutors - say, Bant - I think Paradox Engine could be more than what most people who don't like competitive EDH would want to deal with. As is, the card advantage offered by Rashmi allowed me to draw into one or more of those with some regularity.
I don't think I'll keep this deck around for long in its current form. It isn't really a competitive deck, but it is more competitive than I like to play. If nothing else, I will be taking out Sprout Swarm, as it easily goes infinite with a few mana and Paradox Engine, and I don't like infinite combos. I might omit that, then keep my experiment going for a time, but I suspect I'm still going to find this too broken. Maybe I'll take out all of the artifact tutors, replacing them with draw spells. Making Paradox Engine less reliable to get in play will make it less broken, but I suspect that still won't matter much in any game where I can draw into it and keep it around a couple turns.
Initial impression, based on in-play data: Paradox Engine is pretty darn broken when built around, but not to a degree which I feel at this point would warrant banning. It certainly isn't as broken as a lot of other cards which are legal in the format. Further experimentation might help me form an opinion as to how broken it is in a deck which is built to use it but which isn't built around getting it into play.
Thanks for the detailed write-up and analysis - this type of action is often thankless and I want to break that trend.
I played my Rashmi/Paradox Engine deck today, and also played against two other decks which included Paradox Engine. One was a colorless deck headed by Karn, Silver Golem, while the other was a much more competitive deck, a partner deck which was really a pretty obscene combination Nekusar/Leovold deck headed by Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Vial Smasher the Fierce. This is giving me a much more clear sense of just how powerful Paradox Engine can be.
I won one of the two games I played with my Rashmi deck, in a four-person pod. My Rashmi deck was essentially the same as what I previously described, save that I took out Sprout Swarm as too easy a way to go infinite with a couple mana sources and Paradox Engine. The one game I lost, someone really gummed up the works by getting Void Winnower into play very early, and as a result, my deck never really got off the ground until the game was pretty much over. The other one, with two mana dorks, three rocks, Sylvan Library and Rashmi in play, I just completely dominated the game from the moment I got Paradox Engine into play, drawing into it turn 6. By that time, I had enough mana available to cast Paradox Engine with mana rocks, then cast a small spell (Brainstorm, in this case) to untap all the rocks, and then keep casting stuff while holding mana open to for a counterspell. A couple turns later, I cast Soothsaying for free via Rashmi's ability, which allowed me to use a bunch of mana to find Future Sight, cast a couple more things, stack the next 12 or so cards in my library and win the game on the next turn.
I did recognize one thing about my deck which does cause me some caveats re: how applicable my results may (or may) not be. There is no doubt that Paradox Engine is completely nuts in a deck that is designed to utilize it, but another significant factor in my deck's success is that Rashmi herself is a very strong commander even with only modest amounts of library manipulation. The extra cast/draw trigger just provides so much card advantage, and lets you dig so quickly into your deck, that it becomes very easy to find what you need. Combined with Soothsaying, or even just Sylvan Library, that advantage is pretty amazing. I know this isn't exactly a news flash, but it does suggest that the engine might be a bit too good when combined with an already-strong commander.
Karn was also just plain insane while Paradox Engine was in play. It didn't help that by the time he got Paradox Engine, he had both Mana Crypt and Mana Vault in play, along with a couple of other rocks. The same turn the Engine entered play, he cast a pile of things by repeatedly untapping his rocks. The only thing that kept him in check was that he was playing against my Rashmi deck, and he only had his Paradox Engine in play for one turn before I took it out, thanks to Sylvan Library + Rashmi letting me find Reclamation Sage and cast it for free on my way to victory.
The Leovold/Nekusar monstrosity made insane use of Paradox Engine while illustrating something which Sisay players already know about the Engine - in addition to its powerful interaction with mana rocks and mana dorks, it is also fantastic when combined with generals or other creatures with powerful tap effects. In this case, the combination of Kydele + wheel effects produced ridiculous amounts of mana. A combination of wheels, a few small draw spells, a couple of rocks, Kydele and the Engine let that player cast/filter through something like 1/2 of his deck in a single turn while killing everyone with Nekusar. Yay for combo, I guess. As I noted, that particular deck was built a lot more competitively than I tend to play, so I wasn't at all surprised to get stomped, but that game did point out another way the Engine could be pretty darn powerful even in less broken builds. Wheels and draw spells are already very good on their own, and in a build featuring a lot of them, Paradox Engine just might be too good.
I'm probably not going to keep playing this version of Rashmi too much longer. Specifically, I'm probably going to take out Paradox Engine. It's just too strong for me to really enjoy it, at least in this deck as it is currently built. When I get it in play in this particular deck, the deck runs much more like the more competitive sorts of decks I don't enjoy playing or playing against. Mind you, it's not truly a competitive deck. After taking out Sprout Swarm, it doesn't appear to have any truly infinite combinations, but with a few rocks, library manipulation and something like Future Sight, I can draw and cast enough of my deck to essentially win on the spot. That's powerful, and it's kind of cool the first time you do it, but it really isn't the sort of thing that I enjoy in EDH.
I'll be honest, this experiment is causing me to shift my opinion re: Paradox Engine. I don't think it is as straight-out broken as a lot of the cards/strategies more competitive players tend to use, but I think it just might be too broken for the more typical EDH game. This wasn't what I thought at the start of the experiment.
Consider this. My deck is built to use Paradox Engine, but it isn't anywhere close to a maximized build. I run more mana rocks than usual for me, i.e., 10, but that isn't really that unusual an amount. I run only a couple of mana dorks + Cryptolith Rite (which wasn't a factor in today's games) in terms of creature mana, but Cryptolith Rite is a pretty good card in decks that have a fair number of creatures, and especially in token decks. What I have there isn't that unusual, and while I have a strong commander, neither my commander nor any of the other creatures have a tap ability, or a super-strong synergy with artifacts, and I don't include a ton of draw spells or any wheels. It's easy for me to imagine a lot of spellslinger decks, or a lot of Breya or Sydri decks (to name just two examples that come immediately to mind), in which the Engine would be a lot more broken. When you throw in what it can do in a Sisay deck, or a Selvala deck, or just in any deck which includes those cards in the 99, or any of a number of other strong creatures with good activated abilities... I dunno.
Paradox Engine is not a card which can break any deck you just randomly toss it into. It would do nothing especially broken in a lot of decks, including the vast majority of my own decks. But... given how easy it is to break even in non-optimized builds, I am starting to think it just might be a bit too easily broken to be a good thing in more typical Commander games.
Interesting thread and some good reports by JWK indeed. The card has intrigued me ever since it has been spoiled and if anything, it can lead to some really unexpected and broken interactions - although I don't think many people will run it without intending to do so.
A take that I haven't seen in this thread but is interesting, is running it in a Sedris, the Traitor King list. Off the top of my head, by running a bit of self-mill and a couple of mana rocks, you'll pretty easily be able to unearth your entire graveyard.
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
A take that I haven't seen in this thread but is interesting, is running it in a Sedris, the Traitor King list. Off the top of my head, by running a bit of self-mill and a couple of mana rocks, you'll pretty easily be able to unearth your entire graveyard.
Unearth is an activated ability. You don't cast the creature so there's no interaction between Sedris and Paradox Engine.
A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
Interesting thread and some good reports by JWK indeed. The card has intrigued me ever since it has been spoiled and if anything, it can lead to some really unexpected and broken interactions - although I don't think many people will run it without intending to do so.
Here's the thing... I think it very possible that a lot of people might build around Paradox Engine not intending to really break it, but just intending it to be really good, only to find out it is a lot better than they expected it to be. That's pretty much what's happened so far in my experiment. It didn't surprise the Karn or Nekusar/Leovold players, both of whom are guys who tend to build and play much higher on the competitive curve than me and the people I normally play against. They both included it with the plan to pull off another type of quasi-legacy brokenness in their decks, which were already built more like 100-card singleton vintage/legacy decks in the first place (this was especially true for the guy running the partner deck). But when I dropped Paradox Engine, the Karn player looked at the board state and said something along the lines of "I think you just won," and it turned out he was right.
I suspect Paradox Engine is going to turn out to be so good in decks that are built in a way that allows it to be good that it ends up being too broken, whether or not that's what the people building those decks intended. Sort of how Primeval Titan ended up being just too damn good in decks that included strong lands. I don't think it will be so centralizing at Prime Time was, because copying or stealing a Paradox Engine won't do much of anything in a lot of decks, but I suspect it will turn out to be a lot better in more decks than a lot of people expect.
For my next experiment with Paradox Engine, I'm going to play it in a deck that is less optimized for it than my current Rashmi deck, but in which it could still be incredibly good when the right situation arises. I've decided to put it in my Gahiji token-swarm deck. The only changes I'm going to make are that I'm going to swap in Paradox Engine and Cryptolith Rite for two other cards of similar CMC. I was already planning to put Rite in next time I made some changes to the deck, because it is potentially very strong in a deck that features a fair amount of creatures and makes lots of tokens. The deck currently runs no mana dorks and only three mana rocks, but it does include three creatures with tap abilities: Jazal Goldmane, Rhys the Redeemed and Captain Sisay. Two of these are obviously potentially very good with the Engine, especially since Sisay can also tutor for it, but other than Sisay, the only card in the deck that will be able to get the Engine is Enlightened Tutor, which currently tends to fetch things like Beastmaster Ascension, Doubling Season or Parallel Lives. Since I don't build with a lot of tutors, the deck currently has only one tutor (Eladamri's Call) which can fetch Sisay. It also includes several haste enablers, which makes Cryptolith Rite a lot more dangerous. I figure I probably won't get the Engine into play nearly as often as in my Rashmi deck, but it will be interesting to see how much difference it makes with essentially no building around it, since every other card is perfectly functional in this deck without Paradox Engine, and it won't have any counterspell protection.
My very BASIC experiment(grade school level to JWK's Bill Nye, lol) also pointed out how many interactions P.E. needed to go any amount of infinite. Thankfully, I was able to end the game in short order, though I still wasted 5 previous minutes before making the connection. Guess I ended up being one of the excited/freaked out ones for nothing.
Sidisi was the first place I tried it and I expected it to at worst be a pseudo vigilance enabler for the tokens, and at best make tons of mana by untapping my land untappers and reusing bouncelanda or Cabal Coffers. However it mostly just felt win-more when it worked, and not worth the mana when it would just give "vigilance".
Next, in a search to break it, I moved it into the Sharuum deck. Here I just expected it to work as an expensive really good mana rock that I could recur... And it played exactly that way. Not too bad but not great. So on continued its journey.
Third, I decided to try it in the Yisan deck after hearing one of the people in my playgroup mention the combination. After moving it from the two decks I originally intended to play it in I wasn't too hopeful. That is, until the first time I played it permitted a turn 4 win that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. Between the mana dorks, cheap spells in my hand, and Yisan constantly untapping I managed to draw enough cards to get a Cloudstone Curio and proceed to make infinite mana and draw until I got a Createrhoof Behemoth for the win. It hasn't left the deck, lol.
Similar plays have happened a couple of times, but between not using the deck a lot since I don't think it's particularly fun to play against and not having anyway of effectively tutoring for it, I haven't been able to see how good it would be "normally".
Having played with Paradox Engine since the day of prerelease, I've found it to be pretty hit or miss. The reason for this is that at the stores I play at, threat assessment is generally at a decent level among players. Most everyone that plays EDH regularly at the stores in question know that for Paradox Engine to be great, it requires a set of conditions that are easily disrupted. It requires the deck to be built to abuse it; it requires having a lot of non-land mana sources on the battlefield to make it worthwhile; and it requires casting a lot of spells to chain off of it. The times I have gotten it to stick, not had my mana rocks destroyed or lost in a boardwipe, etc., I've found it to be a pretty powerful card. However, I'm finding more and more that unless you build around it then it's not that great of a threat to the health of the format. It's not something you can just stick in any deck and make it busted. I see reports of specific "stress testing" of the format in the most optimal of conditions, and I don't feel that in the wild the card will be included in those optimal conditions enough to warrant any sort of ban - I have yet to see so, myself. If a card requires a lot of vulnerable pieces to make busted and is only sometimes good by itself, that tells me that it's not that big of an issue. Probably the most busted thing I've done with has been an infinite Gilded Lotus + Basalt Monolith + Capsize + Paradox Engine loop, effectively managing to create a one-sided Upheaval effect using a delicate 4 card combo that requires 6 mana from mana rocks and the Paradox Engine to stay on the board and the spell not to be countered. The problem of the power of that combo was self-solving: No one let Paradox Engine stay on the board for the rest of the week.
Played a lot of games the last few weeks, and had at least three occasions where Paradox Engine was oppressive and unfun to play against. In all situations, the players using Paradox Engine had a few mana rocks and it out, and then took over the game, twice at instant-speed.
The first opponent was playing Mizzix of the Izmagnus. The problem came that when I tried to remove Paradox Engine, in response, he just kept casting cantrip spells, netting mana with his mana rocks, until he drew into counter magic. We were locked out the rest of the game.
The second opponent was using Kozilek, the Great Distortion. Again, he had a few mana rocks out with Paradox Engine. He cast his general, filling up his hand and untapping his rocks, and from there just continued to cast rocks, netting mana, saccing his general, recasting, until the table was dead. And with his general on board, he had some level of counter protection. I think Vedalken Orrery was on his board at some point, which made this much worse.
The final opponent was using Ezuri, Renegade Leader. The elves cast each other, untapping them. He'd net mana from casting them, and then continue to do so. I can't remember what haste engine he finally put out, maybe Akroma's Memorial, which finished us off.
Point being, I think this card is broken in EDH. Sure, there are legitimate uses for it, but I'm only seeing it being used in a degenerate fashion. And to combat the typical response, yes, I've tried to destroy it (I run answers), but a lot of this can be done in response to trying to destroy it. It centralizes the game around the card in a way that is reminiscent of Prophet of Kruphix, and it creates an unfun game state (the Paradox Engine player taking 10+ minutes per turn).
I hope the RC strongly considers banning Paradox Engine for multiplayer EDH play.
Played a lot of games the last few weeks, and had at least three occasions where Paradox Engine
Point being, I think this card is broken in EDH. Sure, there are legitimate uses for it, but I'm only seeing it being used in a degenerate fashion. And to combat the typical response, yes, I've tried to destroy it (I run answers), but a lot of this can be done in response to trying to destroy it. It centralizes the game around the card in a way that is reminiscent of Prophet of Kruphix, and it creates an unfun game state (the Paradox Engine player taking 10+ minutes per turn).
I hope the RC strongly considers banning Paradox Engine for multiplayer EDH play.
PoK would come down. If nobody had untapped mana and an answer, the controller would be able to untap and protect it. PoK needs you to have card draw or mana sinks to take advantage. These are easy to come by.
When Paradox Engine comes down, unless the person can immediately start untapping things, people will have a turn cycle to deal with it. Paradox engine needs you to have mana rocks or mana dorks, and to have card draw. Paradox Engine requires a board presence before being played, and it requires open mana to trigger it to take advantage.
I know that Paradox Engine has the capacity to be more degenerate. But there are many cards that have that capacity. I think winning with Reveillark is easier than winning with Paradox Engine. It requires just about the same amount of set-up, and it is more resilient as you already have a built-in reanimator shell.
Since the capacity to be degenerate is not a criteria for banning, you would need to establish that it is broken by itself.
PoK would come down. If nobody had untapped mana and an answer, the controller would be able to untap and protect it. PoK needs you to have card draw or mana sinks to take advantage. These are easy to come by.
When Paradox Engine comes down, unless the person can immediately start untapping things, people will have a turn cycle to deal with it. Paradox engine needs you to have mana rocks or mana dorks, and to have card draw. Paradox Engine requires a board presence before being played, and it requires open mana to trigger it to take advantage.
I know that Paradox Engine has the capacity to be more degenerate. But there are many cards that have that capacity. I think winning with Reveillark is easier than winning with Paradox Engine. It requires just about the same amount of set-up, and it is more resilient as you already have a built-in reanimator shell.
Since the capacity to be degenerate is not a criteria for banning, you would need to establish that it is broken by itself.
First off, PoK is a joke compared to Paradox Engine in the competitive sense. PoK powered exactly one deck: Momir Vig, while Paradox Engine has almost singlehandedly shaken the entire competitive metagame, created two completely new decks that can't function properly without it (Paradox Arcum and Paradox Sisay) and is a crazy strong include in many other top tier decks. Also, please don't compare Paradox Engine to Reveillark. I have been playing a Reveillark deck for more than 7 years and the actual card is almost never as strong as Paradox Engine is in routine situations. Furthermore, where PE synergizes with any non-land mana producer, Reveillark really only combos with a handful of specific creatures and is merely a one-off value play otherwise. If anything, Paradox Engine should be compared to cards like Sneak Attack, since they are both pseudo Ritual factories. The main difference being that Paradox Engine works on all spells, not just creatures.
Think of it this way. If you are ONLY playing the most basic mana rocks (no Sol Ring, no Mana Vault, no Gilded Lotus, not even mana producing creatures, and definitely no other strong tap abilities), Paradox Engine basically says: Spells you cast have affinity for artifacts. Do you realize how broken that it?
Independent on your opinions of that card, the cascade effect is a reason cited for remaining banned, and that is a similarity that I suspect we will see with Paradox Engine.
I feel I should mention again (unless it wasn't clear before) that I'm not actually in favor of banning it, simply adding my single experience and opinions to the thread.
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I think some people are wary of it because it can at least in theory be pretty broken, but I think to really break it, one has to build around it, and at that point it really isn't that much different than any number of cards... and even then I don't think it will be quite as broken in most decks as are the sort of combo plays one finds in a more competitive metagame. But, personally I'm going to keep watching what it does in those of my decks which aren't built around it, and see how my experiment goes, and continue to watch what I see it do in others' decks (not too much to date, but it's early) before making up my mind. As far as anyone knows, Paradox Engine might not even be on the RC's radar. I'd honestly be kind of surprised if it was.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
So you're saying Hulk isn't a card that requires you to build around? I'm confused.
Don't care, that's an argument for another thread and if you think that it is as applicable for those cards as it was for Hulk, maybe you should bring it up there. Like I said, one of the reasons given for why Hulk was banned is because you included it to do one thing, and slowly you started adding more cards to make it even better, until eventually the game is centered around Hulk. I can see the same mentality applying to Paradox Engine just from my limited use of it.
You'll notice that I am not giving my opinion on whether I think this cascade mentality is the right call or not, because my opinion is largely irrelevant. However, since that is one of thr stated reason for banning a card, it should also be something to consider for other cards. I don't find the card to be particularly ubiquitous, there is no barrier to entry, gross power level, or any other reason to ban the card, so again, I AM NOT ADVOCATING TO BAN THIS CARD.
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I would say if you are trying to break it, you can use arcum dagsson or captain sisay to search out the engine and win almost on the spot for a similar number of decks slots as protean hulk, in fewer colors.
But that's not what I'm worried about, I'm worried about players gradually adding more mana rocks and draw spells to their deck until paradox engine ends up being a 5 mana game win with otherwise fair ramp and draw.
In less-competitive builds, it is not Prophet of Kruphix. It isn't all around good all the time. PoK was also very easy to protect, as it would untap your lands the next turn and let you play countermagic.
You need specific cards to be in play for it to do anything. You also need a constant source of cards to cast. Protecting it is hard, as you can't just cast this on turn 5 and immediately have mana to protect it. It literally does nothing by itself.
Sure, Selvala is broken with it. Selvala is also broken with Umbral Mantle.
If we can call Triskelion broken in Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, but otherwise fine, then calling Paradox Engine broken with a few specific generals is not a good argument.
It hasn't overrun my meta like PoK did. Your deck has to be built in a way to abuse it. PoK was good in any UGx deck.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Was this broken enough to justify a ban? No, I don't think so. A boardwipe broke things up pretty nicely, though the threats kept coming back due to various white and green recursion until someone took out Sisay's graveyard. It was definitely bonkers, but it was built with a lot of synergy to make the most of Sisay and Selvala's abilities, and specifically to break Paradox Engine. The player recognized this as pretty broken and took out the Engine after that game, to his credit.
Sisay, built right, has a game win if these conditions are met now:
Any combination of non-land mana sources that produce 2 mana. This can be a sol ring, 2 dorks, a dork and a mindstone, etc.
Able to use Sisay
Able to generate 5 mana total and then cast a spell (any spell)
More info:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/comments/5n46n0/introducing_captain_sisay_storm_another_blazing/
Sure. Whatever. People can, and unfortunately will, build broken-ass decks. And I fail to see how this is any more broken than any other combo. Keep in mind "building right" allowing combo players to exploit and break a card isn't a ban criteria. If that were the case, lots of combo cards would already be banned.
It will be interesting to see, though, as Paradox Engine is used more, whether people start running more rocks than usual or running more mana dorks (something most non-elf decks try to limit since they all go bye the first time a boardwipe occurs). If that happens, then we'd be seeing evidence that the Engine is warping the greater metagame, and that would potentially be grounds for banning. Not seeing any evidence of that so far, though.
The answer, as Cryogen had suggested would be the case based on his own experience with the card, is "pretty damn broken."
First off, some things about my deck. It runs 10 mana rocks, which is more than usual for me, as well as a couple of mana dorks, a couple ramp spells and Cryptolith Rite. It runs Paradox Engine and several cards which can tutor for it, including Fabricate, Inventors' Fair and Whir of Invention. It runs a very high percentage of instants and sorceries, plus some flash enablers (Leyline of Anticipation, Vedalken Orrery, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir). Because of the high percentage of sorceries and instants, I included Talrand, Sky Summoner, and that gave me the idea to go with a token subtheme, enabled by Metallurgic Summoning and Fable of Wolf and Owl (a card I've always wanted to run, but never found a place for), plus Sprout Swarm, which is obviously insane with Paradox Engine. I also included some library manipulation and play-from-the-library effects, including a few scry cards, Sylvan Library, Brainstorm, Soothsaying, Future Sight and Courser of Kruphix (I didn't have an extra copy of Oracle of Mul Daya). I ran fewer threats than usual, opting instead to use a couple of clones (Clever Impersonator, Phyrexian Metamorph) and some clone spells such as Saheeli's Artistry to copy my opponents' threats. I also played an abnormally low land count (32, mostly basic lands), figuring the high number of rocks and the dorks would make up for it. Rounding out the deck are some blue card draw instants, several counterspells (mostly 3-cmc exile counters), and a selection of removal such as Krosan Grip, Curse of the Swine and Beast Within. The deck's game plan is to win mostly via card advantage, offered by Rashmi and later by combining draw, library manipulation and Paradox Engine to cast enough threats, or make enough tokens, to overwhelm opponents. I included one overrun effect (Overwhelming Stampede) and one haste enabler (Akroma's Memorial). The plan was to get Paradox Engine into play as soon as I could cast it and be reasonably assured of keeping it in play for a few turns.
The results were pretty interesting. Early during the first game, before I did anything too broken, someone commented that this seemed unlike my typical decks, as I played more rocks than usual. One game a very good opening let me play Rashmi on turn 2 due to a turn 1 Sol Ring; every other game she was out on 3 or 4, as I always had 3 lands and a rock or dork out by then. I never had a problem with the low land count, as each game I got at least one mana dork or CMC = 2 rock in my opening hand. Rashmi offers great card advantage from the turn after you play her, and allowed me to almost never miss a land drop, again despite the low count... and when I did miss one, it was not a problem, because I always had a couple of rocks and several lands out by then. Several times I cast a spell and got a rock or dork as my "free" spell, even when I didn't have any repeatable library manipulation in play; once I did get the library manipulation on line, it got a bit silly.
Each game I tried to get Paradox Engine out as soon as I had a couple of rocks and/or dorks, and one or more counters in hand. I sometimes cast it as early as turn 5 via drawing into it or tutoring turn 4. Usually it was a few turns after that, except one game in which someone went infinite on turn 6 or so, as he pulled out a more competitive deck for a spin because he wanted to get one more game in but have it be a short one because he had to leave soon. That particular game, I was flooded with mana - lands, rocks and a couple dorks - but never drew into Paradox Engine or anything else that let me use those resources.
I won the very first game by getting Paradox Engine out while I already had Cryptolith Rite and a couple rocks, plus Future Sight and Soothsaying. Soothsaying, of all things, turned out pretty insane, because I could tap my stuff for a bunch of mana, cast a small spell, untap, etc, then spend several mana to dig 10-12 cards deep, stack the deck then keep playing off my topdeck. A wrath slowed me down briefly, but I managed to keep the Engine in play because I was holding a couple counterspells, and when I finally drew Sprout Swarm, it was game over, as the mana I was able to generate by untapping the rocks let me dig for Akroma's Memorial.
I won two other games, putting my deck at 3/6 for the evening in a four-man pod, despite being the archenemy most of the time due to my showing in game 1. I never went infinite again, but the advantage offered by just Rashmi, Paradox Engine and a few rocks was pretty solid, and let me cast some big threats, clone them, then beat face. One game it was Stormtide Leviathan with Blade of Selves. Another it was a clone of an opponent's Gisela and two cloned Baneslayer Angels, plus a small swarm of bird and wolf tokens. Whenever I drew into Cryptolith Rite, it was insane. Of the games I lost, one time I was never in the game due to drawing into nothing but mana, and the other two times, opponents studiously kept Rashmi off the table as much as possible and went all-out to take out key components of my engines, including (obviously) Paradox Engine but also Cryptolith Rite. I never encountered any significant amount of artifact hate during the evening's games, though I did have to counter an overloaded Vandalblast once. More commonly, my mana dorks didn't last long, and the occasional boardwipe would serve to keep Cryptolith Rite from getting too badly out of hand most games.
I think this deck is a bit more broken than how I tend to play, but that is with me essentially trying to break it. It certainly isn't as broken as a lot of what people who build competitively play, but it was still more than broken enough for my taste. And that's with no tutors to be able to fetch some of the enchantments (Sylvan Library, Future Sight, Cryptolith Rite, Soothsaying) that really made it work well. In a build with enchantment tutors - say, Bant - I think Paradox Engine could be more than what most people who don't like competitive EDH would want to deal with. As is, the card advantage offered by Rashmi allowed me to draw into one or more of those with some regularity.
I don't think I'll keep this deck around for long in its current form. It isn't really a competitive deck, but it is more competitive than I like to play. If nothing else, I will be taking out Sprout Swarm, as it easily goes infinite with a few mana and Paradox Engine, and I don't like infinite combos. I might omit that, then keep my experiment going for a time, but I suspect I'm still going to find this too broken. Maybe I'll take out all of the artifact tutors, replacing them with draw spells. Making Paradox Engine less reliable to get in play will make it less broken, but I suspect that still won't matter much in any game where I can draw into it and keep it around a couple turns.
Initial impression, based on in-play data: Paradox Engine is pretty darn broken when built around, but not to a degree which I feel at this point would warrant banning. It certainly isn't as broken as a lot of other cards which are legal in the format. Further experimentation might help me form an opinion as to how broken it is in a deck which is built to use it but which isn't built around getting it into play.
So far, not impressed. More testing is required.
The other method is putting it in you opening hand, meaning 6+1, or after mulligan + test card.
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I played my Rashmi/Paradox Engine deck today, and also played against two other decks which included Paradox Engine. One was a colorless deck headed by Karn, Silver Golem, while the other was a much more competitive deck, a partner deck which was really a pretty obscene combination Nekusar/Leovold deck headed by Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Vial Smasher the Fierce. This is giving me a much more clear sense of just how powerful Paradox Engine can be.
I won one of the two games I played with my Rashmi deck, in a four-person pod. My Rashmi deck was essentially the same as what I previously described, save that I took out Sprout Swarm as too easy a way to go infinite with a couple mana sources and Paradox Engine. The one game I lost, someone really gummed up the works by getting Void Winnower into play very early, and as a result, my deck never really got off the ground until the game was pretty much over. The other one, with two mana dorks, three rocks, Sylvan Library and Rashmi in play, I just completely dominated the game from the moment I got Paradox Engine into play, drawing into it turn 6. By that time, I had enough mana available to cast Paradox Engine with mana rocks, then cast a small spell (Brainstorm, in this case) to untap all the rocks, and then keep casting stuff while holding mana open to for a counterspell. A couple turns later, I cast Soothsaying for free via Rashmi's ability, which allowed me to use a bunch of mana to find Future Sight, cast a couple more things, stack the next 12 or so cards in my library and win the game on the next turn.
I did recognize one thing about my deck which does cause me some caveats re: how applicable my results may (or may) not be. There is no doubt that Paradox Engine is completely nuts in a deck that is designed to utilize it, but another significant factor in my deck's success is that Rashmi herself is a very strong commander even with only modest amounts of library manipulation. The extra cast/draw trigger just provides so much card advantage, and lets you dig so quickly into your deck, that it becomes very easy to find what you need. Combined with Soothsaying, or even just Sylvan Library, that advantage is pretty amazing. I know this isn't exactly a news flash, but it does suggest that the engine might be a bit too good when combined with an already-strong commander.
Karn was also just plain insane while Paradox Engine was in play. It didn't help that by the time he got Paradox Engine, he had both Mana Crypt and Mana Vault in play, along with a couple of other rocks. The same turn the Engine entered play, he cast a pile of things by repeatedly untapping his rocks. The only thing that kept him in check was that he was playing against my Rashmi deck, and he only had his Paradox Engine in play for one turn before I took it out, thanks to Sylvan Library + Rashmi letting me find Reclamation Sage and cast it for free on my way to victory.
The Leovold/Nekusar monstrosity made insane use of Paradox Engine while illustrating something which Sisay players already know about the Engine - in addition to its powerful interaction with mana rocks and mana dorks, it is also fantastic when combined with generals or other creatures with powerful tap effects. In this case, the combination of Kydele + wheel effects produced ridiculous amounts of mana. A combination of wheels, a few small draw spells, a couple of rocks, Kydele and the Engine let that player cast/filter through something like 1/2 of his deck in a single turn while killing everyone with Nekusar. Yay for combo, I guess. As I noted, that particular deck was built a lot more competitively than I tend to play, so I wasn't at all surprised to get stomped, but that game did point out another way the Engine could be pretty darn powerful even in less broken builds. Wheels and draw spells are already very good on their own, and in a build featuring a lot of them, Paradox Engine just might be too good.
I'm probably not going to keep playing this version of Rashmi too much longer. Specifically, I'm probably going to take out Paradox Engine. It's just too strong for me to really enjoy it, at least in this deck as it is currently built. When I get it in play in this particular deck, the deck runs much more like the more competitive sorts of decks I don't enjoy playing or playing against. Mind you, it's not truly a competitive deck. After taking out Sprout Swarm, it doesn't appear to have any truly infinite combinations, but with a few rocks, library manipulation and something like Future Sight, I can draw and cast enough of my deck to essentially win on the spot. That's powerful, and it's kind of cool the first time you do it, but it really isn't the sort of thing that I enjoy in EDH.
I'll be honest, this experiment is causing me to shift my opinion re: Paradox Engine. I don't think it is as straight-out broken as a lot of the cards/strategies more competitive players tend to use, but I think it just might be too broken for the more typical EDH game. This wasn't what I thought at the start of the experiment.
Consider this. My deck is built to use Paradox Engine, but it isn't anywhere close to a maximized build. I run more mana rocks than usual for me, i.e., 10, but that isn't really that unusual an amount. I run only a couple of mana dorks + Cryptolith Rite (which wasn't a factor in today's games) in terms of creature mana, but Cryptolith Rite is a pretty good card in decks that have a fair number of creatures, and especially in token decks. What I have there isn't that unusual, and while I have a strong commander, neither my commander nor any of the other creatures have a tap ability, or a super-strong synergy with artifacts, and I don't include a ton of draw spells or any wheels. It's easy for me to imagine a lot of spellslinger decks, or a lot of Breya or Sydri decks (to name just two examples that come immediately to mind), in which the Engine would be a lot more broken. When you throw in what it can do in a Sisay deck, or a Selvala deck, or just in any deck which includes those cards in the 99, or any of a number of other strong creatures with good activated abilities... I dunno.
Paradox Engine is not a card which can break any deck you just randomly toss it into. It would do nothing especially broken in a lot of decks, including the vast majority of my own decks. But... given how easy it is to break even in non-optimized builds, I am starting to think it just might be a bit too easily broken to be a good thing in more typical Commander games.
A take that I haven't seen in this thread but is interesting, is running it in a Sedris, the Traitor King list. Off the top of my head, by running a bit of self-mill and a couple of mana rocks, you'll pretty easily be able to unearth your entire graveyard.
Here's the thing... I think it very possible that a lot of people might build around Paradox Engine not intending to really break it, but just intending it to be really good, only to find out it is a lot better than they expected it to be. That's pretty much what's happened so far in my experiment. It didn't surprise the Karn or Nekusar/Leovold players, both of whom are guys who tend to build and play much higher on the competitive curve than me and the people I normally play against. They both included it with the plan to pull off another type of quasi-legacy brokenness in their decks, which were already built more like 100-card singleton vintage/legacy decks in the first place (this was especially true for the guy running the partner deck). But when I dropped Paradox Engine, the Karn player looked at the board state and said something along the lines of "I think you just won," and it turned out he was right.
I suspect Paradox Engine is going to turn out to be so good in decks that are built in a way that allows it to be good that it ends up being too broken, whether or not that's what the people building those decks intended. Sort of how Primeval Titan ended up being just too damn good in decks that included strong lands. I don't think it will be so centralizing at Prime Time was, because copying or stealing a Paradox Engine won't do much of anything in a lot of decks, but I suspect it will turn out to be a lot better in more decks than a lot of people expect.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Sidisi was the first place I tried it and I expected it to at worst be a pseudo vigilance enabler for the tokens, and at best make tons of mana by untapping my land untappers and reusing bouncelanda or Cabal Coffers. However it mostly just felt win-more when it worked, and not worth the mana when it would just give "vigilance".
Next, in a search to break it, I moved it into the Sharuum deck. Here I just expected it to work as an expensive really good mana rock that I could recur... And it played exactly that way. Not too bad but not great. So on continued its journey.
Third, I decided to try it in the Yisan deck after hearing one of the people in my playgroup mention the combination. After moving it from the two decks I originally intended to play it in I wasn't too hopeful. That is, until the first time I played it permitted a turn 4 win that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. Between the mana dorks, cheap spells in my hand, and Yisan constantly untapping I managed to draw enough cards to get a Cloudstone Curio and proceed to make infinite mana and draw until I got a Createrhoof Behemoth for the win. It hasn't left the deck, lol.
Similar plays have happened a couple of times, but between not using the deck a lot since I don't think it's particularly fun to play against and not having anyway of effectively tutoring for it, I haven't been able to see how good it would be "normally".
(Also known as Xenphire)
The first opponent was playing Mizzix of the Izmagnus. The problem came that when I tried to remove Paradox Engine, in response, he just kept casting cantrip spells, netting mana with his mana rocks, until he drew into counter magic. We were locked out the rest of the game.
The second opponent was using Kozilek, the Great Distortion. Again, he had a few mana rocks out with Paradox Engine. He cast his general, filling up his hand and untapping his rocks, and from there just continued to cast rocks, netting mana, saccing his general, recasting, until the table was dead. And with his general on board, he had some level of counter protection. I think Vedalken Orrery was on his board at some point, which made this much worse.
The final opponent was using Ezuri, Renegade Leader. The elves cast each other, untapping them. He'd net mana from casting them, and then continue to do so. I can't remember what haste engine he finally put out, maybe Akroma's Memorial, which finished us off.
Point being, I think this card is broken in EDH. Sure, there are legitimate uses for it, but I'm only seeing it being used in a degenerate fashion. And to combat the typical response, yes, I've tried to destroy it (I run answers), but a lot of this can be done in response to trying to destroy it. It centralizes the game around the card in a way that is reminiscent of Prophet of Kruphix, and it creates an unfun game state (the Paradox Engine player taking 10+ minutes per turn).
I hope the RC strongly considers banning Paradox Engine for multiplayer EDH play.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsPoK would come down. If nobody had untapped mana and an answer, the controller would be able to untap and protect it. PoK needs you to have card draw or mana sinks to take advantage. These are easy to come by.
When Paradox Engine comes down, unless the person can immediately start untapping things, people will have a turn cycle to deal with it. Paradox engine needs you to have mana rocks or mana dorks, and to have card draw. Paradox Engine requires a board presence before being played, and it requires open mana to trigger it to take advantage.
I know that Paradox Engine has the capacity to be more degenerate. But there are many cards that have that capacity. I think winning with Reveillark is easier than winning with Paradox Engine. It requires just about the same amount of set-up, and it is more resilient as you already have a built-in reanimator shell.
Since the capacity to be degenerate is not a criteria for banning, you would need to establish that it is broken by itself.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Think of it this way. If you are ONLY playing the most basic mana rocks (no Sol Ring, no Mana Vault, no Gilded Lotus, not even mana producing creatures, and definitely no other strong tap abilities), Paradox Engine basically says: Spells you cast have affinity for artifacts. Do you realize how broken that it?