This caused so much unnecessary confusion and is exactly why Wizards needs to keep out of the business of EDH and just let the RC do it's thing. Screw the people with giant hate boners for the RC, this entire thing has been an exercise in why it's not a good idea for Wizards to interject.
Wizards should stay out of printing Commander cards? No more R&D and sets for Commander, hmmm interesting perspective. Personally I like having Wizards make it part of their business, lol.
This caused so much unnecessary confusion and is exactly why Wizards needs to keep out of the business of EDH and just let the RC do it's thing. Screw the people with giant hate boners for the RC, this entire thing has been an exercise in why it's not a good idea for Wizards to interject.
Wizards should stay out of printing Commander cards? No more R&D and sets for Commander, hmmm interesting perspective. Personally I like having Wizards make it part of their business, lol.
It is quite clear the reference was to rules manipulation.
When they tried to change the ban list for Multiplayer, they were rightly called down by the community. This is why they can't run the ban list for the EDH crowd : They can't divorce themselves from the thought of tournament play. They should stay in their lane, and quickly figured that out.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
This caused so much unnecessary confusion and is exactly why Wizards needs to keep out of the business of EDH and just let the RC do it's thing. Screw the people with giant hate boners for the RC, this entire thing has been an exercise in why it's not a good idea for Wizards to interject.
Wizards should stay out of printing Commander cards? No more R&D and sets for Commander, hmmm interesting perspective. Personally I like having Wizards make it part of their business, lol.
It is quite clear the reference was to rules manipulation.
When they tried to change the ban list for Multiplayer, they were rightly called down by the community. This is why they can't run the ban list for the EDH crowd : They can't divorce themselves from the thought of tournament play. They should stay in their lane, and quickly figured that out.
He knows that, he's just desperate for a "win" because he was spiking the football over the initial decision and tragically unaware of how hated it was by most of the community (demonstrated by how quickly they reversed course and citing overwhelming community feedback as the reason).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
This is a poorly designed thread. It is loaded with fallacies and biased opinion. The hate on sol ring and mana crypt is unjustified. It begs the question of why is it hated and why players are not adapting to it? This is a game of adaptation and skill. Not running removal or playing heavy group hug in format of real competitive cards is their fault. The mana rocks are easily destroyed. Commander has the another unseen rule. You play with 99 unknown drawn cards. It's the luck and skill that drive good players. Everyone wants perfect equilibrium or fairness, but no one tries to ban the real obvious threat to a good game: getting mana sqrewed. Oh wait, we can't ban that....instead we pick on the successful players.
Own up to bad miss plays and builds. Don't blame cards for your failure to recognize win conditions, set pieces, or resources. Wizards should never control the ban list as they are money driven to make you buy more. Commander started in private and will stay in private control of the players. If wizards goes full retard, I will ask shops to abandon their rules for a new format of what we prefer to play in old school commander.
Banning commanders is understandable as these are known resources that can brought back. Sol ring and mana crypt make colorless......they are not black lotus. Big difference. Colorless mana can be useless.
I just played two pods of all ur-dragon except me. I play memnarch. It was easy to win because they had NO answers to me. This is ludicrous to blame my deck for their need to play a lot of fat in a deck with no answers to me. This thread is nothing but scapegoating and stealing player rights. Many of you should be ashamed.
This is a poorly designed thread. It is loaded with fallacies and biased opinion. The hate on sol ring and mana crypt is unjustified. It begs the question of why is it hated and why players are not adapting to it? This is a game of adaptation and skill. Not running removal or playing heavy group hug in format of real competitive cards is their fault. The mana rocks are easily destroyed. Commander has the another unseen rule. You play with 99 unknown drawn cards. It's the luck and skill that drive good players. Everyone wants perfect equilibrium or fairness, but no one tries to ban the real obvious threat to a good game: getting mana sqrewed. Oh wait, we can't ban that....instead we pick on the successful players.
Own up to bad miss plays and builds. Don't blame cards for your failure to recognize win conditions, set pieces, or resources. Wizards should never control the ban list as they are money driven to make you buy more. Commander started in private and will stay in private control of the players. If wizards goes full retard, I will ask shops to abandon their rules for a new format of what we prefer to play in old school commander.
Banning commanders is understandable as these are known resources that can brought back. Sol ring and mana crypt make colorless......they are not black lotus. Big difference. Colorless mana can be useless.
I just played two pods of all ur-dragon except me. I play memnarch. It was easy to win because they had NO answers to me. This is ludicrous to blame my deck for their need to play a lot of fat in a deck with no answers to me. This thread is nothing but scapegoating and stealing player rights. Many of you should be ashamed.
It is justified. Both enable plays which would be done a lot later in game. Nobody cares about Sol Ring or Crypt after T5. But when someone starts with Land --> Ring --> Signet and T2 he plays 5 CMC general when others are on 1 mana, that is the problem. Add Crypt and you can cast down Damia, Sage of stone on T2. Yep, totally fair. T1 artifact destroys exist, but I won't pack my deck only with artifact hate just to counter sol ring. Also, in deck of 100 cards, even if you pack 10 to counter artifacts, doesn't mean you will have it in opening hand, rng works.
Pod of Ur-dragons? Modified or not? If not, you are really comparing 3 pre-made decks with almost no answers to anything to your fine tuned Memnarch? Also, maybe they are casual players, not cutthroat like you. Maybe the ashamed one should be you.
This is a poorly designed thread. It is loaded with fallacies and biased opinion. The hate on sol ring and mana crypt is unjustified. It begs the question of why is it hated and why players are not adapting to it? This is a game of adaptation and skill. Not running removal or playing heavy group hug in format of real competitive cards is their fault. The mana rocks are easily destroyed. Commander has the another unseen rule. You play with 99 unknown drawn cards. It's the luck and skill that drive good players. Everyone wants perfect equilibrium or fairness, but no one tries to ban the real obvious threat to a good game: getting mana sqrewed. Oh wait, we can't ban that....instead we pick on the successful players.
Own up to bad miss plays and builds. Don't blame cards for your failure to recognize win conditions, set pieces, or resources. Wizards should never control the ban list as they are money driven to make you buy more. Commander started in private and will stay in private control of the players. If wizards goes full retard, I will ask shops to abandon their rules for a new format of what we prefer to play in old school commander.
Banning commanders is understandable as these are known resources that can brought back. Sol ring and mana crypt make colorless......they are not black lotus. Big difference. Colorless mana can be useless.
I just played two pods of all ur-dragon except me. I play memnarch. It was easy to win because they had NO answers to me. This is ludicrous to blame my deck for their need to play a lot of fat in a deck with no answers to me. This thread is nothing but scapegoating and stealing player rights. Many of you should be ashamed.
Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are problem cards. They are unhealthy for the format for the reason Ph03niX stated - they accelerate one player turns ahead of the other players. Whether they should be banned is debatable, but if we reach the point where we need to pack removal specifically for a 1cmc card which does nothing but tap for colorless mana, then we've reached the point where those cards need to be banned. And I would bet money that if someone used their limited artifact removal on your Sol Ring you would be doing cartwheels because that's one less removal card that could be used on an artifact you actually cared about.
Especially the first point rubs me the wrong way: "I believe a mix between the duel commander and multiplayer rules and ban list can make for a complete format."
The exact opposite would be true.
If we want to keep this format healthy we definitely need to make bigger splits.
It's like putting professional Formula-1 drivers into a Go-Kart day for 12 year olds: People will end up getting hurt.
It might hurt for a short moment but we really need to split the people that want a fair and competitive format and the people that just want to do stupid stuff and have fun.
For some short time the competitive players will be hurt since they won't find any opponents, but in the long run everyone will be happier since their opponent and the games they play will be exactly what they want it to be.
This is a poorly designed thread. It is loaded with fallacies and biased opinion. The hate on sol ring and mana crypt is unjustified. It begs the question of why is it hated and why players are not adapting to it? This is a game of adaptation and skill. Not running removal or playing heavy group hug in format of real competitive cards is their fault. The mana rocks are easily destroyed. Commander has the another unseen rule. You play with 99 unknown drawn cards. It's the luck and skill that drive good players. Everyone wants perfect equilibrium or fairness, but no one tries to ban the real obvious threat to a good game: getting mana sqrewed. Oh wait, we can't ban that....instead we pick on the successful players.
Own up to bad miss plays and builds. Don't blame cards for your failure to recognize win conditions, set pieces, or resources. Wizards should never control the ban list as they are money driven to make you buy more. Commander started in private and will stay in private control of the players. If wizards goes full retard, I will ask shops to abandon their rules for a new format of what we prefer to play in old school commander.
Banning commanders is understandable as these are known resources that can brought back. Sol ring and mana crypt make colorless......they are not black lotus. Big difference. Colorless mana can be useless.
I just played two pods of all ur-dragon except me. I play memnarch. It was easy to win because they had NO answers to me. This is ludicrous to blame my deck for their need to play a lot of fat in a deck with no answers to me. This thread is nothing but scapegoating and stealing player rights. Many of you should be ashamed.
It is justified. Both enable plays which would be done a lot later in game. Nobody cares about Sol Ring or Crypt after T5. But when someone starts with Land --> Ring --> Signet and T2 he plays 5 CMC general when others are on 1 mana, that is the problem. Add Crypt and you can cast down Damia, Sage of stone on T2. Yep, totally fair. T1 artifact destroys exist, but I won't pack my deck only with artifact hate just to counter sol ring. Also, in deck of 100 cards, even if you pack 10 to counter artifacts, doesn't mean you will have it in opening hand, rng works.
Pod of Ur-dragons? Modified or not? If not, you are really comparing 3 pre-made decks with almost no answers to anything to your fine tuned Memnarch? Also, maybe they are casual players, not cutthroat like you. Maybe the ashamed one should be you.
Burgeoning does the same thing and no one complains about that card. I have seen a guy go from one land to four and lager mana rocks One his second turn. Please, you are just complaining on a crappy hand
My pods were not just jank or pre-con builds. These guys had dual land and one guy tried to play jintaxis on turn 3. The shop I go to highly competitive and 30 plus people game nights at my shop. Suggestion, instead of crying fowl play and attacking me, seek out real competitive poeople to play against like me or go play with the kids pod. Our shop has no place for sore losers.
This is a poorly designed thread. It is loaded with fallacies and biased opinion. The hate on sol ring and mana crypt is unjustified. It begs the question of why is it hated and why players are not adapting to it? This is a game of adaptation and skill. Not running removal or playing heavy group hug in format of real competitive cards is their fault. The mana rocks are easily destroyed. Commander has the another unseen rule. You play with 99 unknown drawn cards. It's the luck and skill that drive good players. Everyone wants perfect equilibrium or fairness, but no one tries to ban the real obvious threat to a good game: getting mana sqrewed. Oh wait, we can't ban that....instead we pick on the successful players.
Own up to bad miss plays and builds. Don't blame cards for your failure to recognize win conditions, set pieces, or resources. Wizards should never control the ban list as they are money driven to make you buy more. Commander started in private and will stay in private control of the players. If wizards goes full retard, I will ask shops to abandon their rules for a new format of what we prefer to play in old school commander.
Banning commanders is understandable as these are known resources that can brought back. Sol ring and mana crypt make colorless......they are not black lotus. Big difference. Colorless mana can be useless.
I just played two pods of all ur-dragon except me. I play memnarch. It was easy to win because they had NO answers to me. This is ludicrous to blame my deck for their need to play a lot of fat in a deck with no answers to me. This thread is nothing but scapegoating and stealing player rights. Many of you should be ashamed.
Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are problem cards. They are unhealthy for the format for the reason Ph03niX stated - they accelerate one player turns ahead of the other players. Whether they should be banned is debatable, but if we reach the point where we need to pack removal specifically for a 1cmc card which does nothing but tap for colorless mana, then we've reached the point where those cards need to be banned. And I would bet money that if someone used their limited artifact removal on your Sol Ring you would be doing cartwheels because that's one less removal card that could be used on an artifact you actually cared about.
Let's ask the real question....what is commander doing mostly? Combos.
If you do run disruption of some kind, what happens? Combo wins.
If you know this ahead of time, not planing for it is your fault. I see way to many people play the victim or are sore loses because they wanted to play group hug or Timmy decks and could not win. They are playing to win as well with strategies that require me to do nothing response to their play or game politics. The need to learn to have answers. I am thrilled to play against opponents to challenge with their style and control package whether it by creatures or other spells to achieve the goal.
Fruit for thought....if you ban the cards that you feel are unfair, the next time someone complains about your cards for a ban hammer think about how they could have just adapted their decks, played politics in forming alliances, or everyone attack the threat! It drives me crazy when a player has board position and does not attack or tries to win the game. They just sit there, pass turn, and play nice. Wth? When you topple their position, they always complain the loudest saying they were playing nice, why me?
Answer- I payed $5 to win, not a fan of 2 hour games, and want to go home afterward and crawl into bed with beautiful wife. You are slowing me down.
Thanks for arguing philosophy and the game with me. Appreciate that. Last guy just ad hominyn'd me.
My playgroup kinda follows the French/duel ban list, but any time someone drops a Sol Ring in their first 2 turns, we end up scooping if no one has a response very quickly and restart to the point that now only our "iffy" decks get to use SR because it won't really matter against our "T1" decks.
I have never seen people scoop from T1 sol ring. Kind of like giving up for 2 colorless mana.
I try a different strategy. We make sure new players have 2-3 lands opening hand to not get hosed. I also ch class their decks for build strength if they let me. The top players, like me, all chime in to assist in stronger builds to fight us or each other. I have no issue recommending boil against me. Instead of a ban list, we work to build players to be competitive like us. It strengthens the community and keeps a constant stream of teaching the new guys to replace leaving players.
Ban lists remove teaching players like us from the ranks cause we loose interest in bowing down to sore losers.
I no way am pointing at you, just a philosophical point all of us make in my stores.
My pods were not just jank or pre-con builds. These guys had dual land and one guy tried to play jintaxis on turn 3. The shop I go to highly competitive and 30 plus people game nights at my shop. Suggestion, instead of crying fowl play and attacking me, seek out real competitive poeople to play against like me or go play with the kids pod. Our shop has no place for sore losers.
Dual lands does not make a player or deck competitive. (T3 Jin-Gix, on the other hand....). But with the description you are giving of yourself and your playgroup, be prepared for the response that you are the outlier of the "typical" EDH player and that your experience is not representative of the majority of players nor are you the players which the Rules Committee has in mind when they maintain the ban list.
Let's ask the real question....what is commander doing mostly? Combos.
If you do run disruption of some kind, what happens? Combo wins.
If you know this ahead of time, not planing for it is your fault. I see way to many people play the victim or are sore loses because they wanted to play group hug or Timmy decks and could not win. They are playing to win as well with strategies that require me to do nothing response to their play or game politics. The need to learn to have answers. I am thrilled to play against opponents to challenge with their style and control package whether it by creatures or other spells to achieve the goal.
Fruit for thought....if you ban the cards that you feel are unfair, the next time someone complains about your cards for a ban hammer think about how they could have just adapted their decks, played politics in forming alliances, or everyone attack the threat! It drives me crazy when a player has board position and does not attack or tries to win the game. They just sit there, pass turn, and play nice. Wth? When you topple their position, they always complain the loudest saying they were playing nice, why me?
Answer- I payed $5 to win, not a fan of 2 hour games, and want to go home afterward and crawl into bed with beautiful wife. You are slowing me down.
Thanks for arguing philosophy and the game with me. Appreciate that. Last guy just ad hominyn'd me.
I'm not sure what your overall intent is here and how much is meant to be a rebuttal, so I'll just respond in order. Apologies in advance if it makes my reply less cohesive or if part of it wasn't meant to be a response to me directly.
I see all sorts of plays in EDH, not just combo. YMMV. If you run (the proper) disruption (and have it handy when you need it) combo generally folds or is delayed. As an aside, this strengthens my original response to you which is that wasting removal on a Sol Ring can be a horrible play when it means that you won't have that removal when you need it on the actual threat.
What's wrong with group hug or Timmy decks? EDH isn't meant to be the format for Spikes playing optimized decks and cutthroat games (not that they shouldn't play, mind you, just that the format isn't being designed for their optimal play experience). I agree that these players should think about other decks besides their own during deck construction and pack cards which can interact with their opponents. How much is debatable, but "git gud scrub" is hardly an appropriate response to these players.
I'm not sure who the "if you ban the cards you feel are unfair" is aimed at. I'm not sure if I've ever used unfair as an argument in the many years I've been on this forum. Cards should be banned because they conflict with the reasons the RC bans cards and because the cards see actual play and are not being sufficiently handled in game.
My playgroup kinda follows the French/duel ban list, but any time someone drops a Sol Ring in their first 2 turns, we end up scooping if no one has a response very quickly and restart to the point that now only our "iffy" decks get to use SR because it won't really matter against our "T1" decks.
Why scoop to a turn one Sol Ring? I've seen way more games not defined by that play than by it, but this could be attributed to my more laid back group.
This thread sucks, it should be locked. The original topic has run its course, and barely merited its own thread anyway as the OP was making several complain about the RC threads, and post necro has turned into a more general banlist discussion focusing on fast mana. There are already threads for this, stickied threads.
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I think this thread should stay. Coz it would otherwise be perceived as pandering to the RC. This thread provides a balance to the endless pandering. If you don't like the thread, you can always stay away from it.
Just like how wizards design their cards. Not all cards (threads in this case) were made for you.
The concept of the thread (basing this off the title alone) is fine, but the OP is flawed. The user in their opening post makes it clear that their primary issue is that MTGO uses the multiplayer list for 1v1 play (which has been since changed), that they don't agree with the list because of Sol Ring and Mana Crypt (there's a thread for that), and that the original poster has an incorrect assumption about how the Rules Committee are or should be managing the format.
Since both Wizards and the RC have stated a number of times that the RC is in control of the format and Wizards has no public interest in taking it over, what I would suggest is locking this thread and creating an official (so that all discussion is contained to one thread) "Dissatisfaction with how the RC manages the format" thread, or similar where you can share your opinions about what they're doing wrong or suggestions you'd make. This thread has been going on for too long to effectively port into a salvageable thread, which is why I'd lock it and start fresh.
I support a "Dissatisfaction with the RC" thread. Focusing the criticism (assuming, of course, the site admins will continue to do the fine job they're doing) into one place helps get a better handle on what folks dislike. Plus, if I'm ever in the mood to get called names, I know where to go.
FWIW to Sheldon, the rest of the RC, Cryogen and all their efforts with this format on both this site and the original edh site, I love that a voltron, Timmy Power Gamer, Johnny Combo, and Pringles player (stax) can walk into a pillow fort, sit at one table expecting attrition warfare (control), instead get stuck in a group hug and yet still have a fun time. Our decks feature Commanders from Tier 1 to about Tier 4, and no one is guaranteed to win. My group, though still somewhat new into edh, shows that games go degenerate only if the players do. We have all of those archetypes represented to some degree and we all have a blast. I think the format's fine and you guys are doing a great job. Keep it up.
Let's ask the real question....what is commander doing mostly? Combos.
Not in games where people are concerned with everyone's fun. Alternately, thats what everyone is trying to do. Past that its people breaking an easy to break format, and claiming some kind of superiority about it. Seems boring
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Let's ask the real question....what is commander doing mostly? Combos.
Not in games where people are concerned with everyone's fun. Alternately, thats what everyone is trying to do. Past that its people breaking an easy to break format, and claiming some kind of superiority about it. Seems boring
Again, folks like you define fun differently. Combos don't have to go infinite to be annoying. Some of us like playing competitive to challenge our to more than turn creatures sideways to win.
I will agree that one deck is just boring as hell to watch, eggs.
Everything went fine, until one dude brought a graveyard recursion Entomb deck with two 2-card infinite combos, featuring Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord as his commander. When we gang up on him, he says we are metagaming and therefore are sore losers.
I used to play with a guy that did that. He wouldn't say we were sore losers but would loudly complain about dying first. Basically he was a fine player but he was bad at reading the table. We'd all pull out either average decks that need time or stronger decks that can't handle late game situations. He'd pull out a fast and overwhelming force that also had a quality late game and then wonder why we, people who also want to win the game, would prioritize him.
Basically if you want to bring a nuke to a gun fight you better make sure you can fire the thing before you wind up riddled with bullets. Otherwise you only have yourself to blame.
Everything went fine, until one dude brought a graveyard recursion Entomb deck with two 2-card infinite combos, featuring Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord as his commander. When we gang up on him, he says we are metagaming and therefore are sore losers.
Basically if you want to bring a nuke to a gun fight you better make sure you can fire the thing before you wind up riddled with bullets. Otherwise you only have yourself to blame.
I like this metaphor. Threat assessment is a two way street: you not only need to be able to detect who is the threat, but also detect when you are sending the signal that YOU are the threat and take steps to avoid that until your opponents knowing you are a threat matters less than acting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
There is some nuance to be made in that discussion. Some players like to try and play that game in that they try to divert their opponent's attention. The "Why are you hitting me when X has Y" deal, for example. They may very well know and accept they're the threat, they just try to play it off differently.
Of course, if this behavior continues post-game, you know it's a genuine whiner and not someone who tried to play things off.
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():
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
When they tried to change the ban list for Multiplayer, they were rightly called down by the community. This is why they can't run the ban list for the EDH crowd : They can't divorce themselves from the thought of tournament play. They should stay in their lane, and quickly figured that out.
He knows that, he's just desperate for a "win" because he was spiking the football over the initial decision and tragically unaware of how hated it was by most of the community (demonstrated by how quickly they reversed course and citing overwhelming community feedback as the reason).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Own up to bad miss plays and builds. Don't blame cards for your failure to recognize win conditions, set pieces, or resources. Wizards should never control the ban list as they are money driven to make you buy more. Commander started in private and will stay in private control of the players. If wizards goes full retard, I will ask shops to abandon their rules for a new format of what we prefer to play in old school commander.
Banning commanders is understandable as these are known resources that can brought back. Sol ring and mana crypt make colorless......they are not black lotus. Big difference. Colorless mana can be useless.
I just played two pods of all ur-dragon except me. I play memnarch. It was easy to win because they had NO answers to me. This is ludicrous to blame my deck for their need to play a lot of fat in a deck with no answers to me. This thread is nothing but scapegoating and stealing player rights. Many of you should be ashamed.
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
It is justified. Both enable plays which would be done a lot later in game. Nobody cares about Sol Ring or Crypt after T5. But when someone starts with Land --> Ring --> Signet and T2 he plays 5 CMC general when others are on 1 mana, that is the problem. Add Crypt and you can cast down Damia, Sage of stone on T2. Yep, totally fair. T1 artifact destroys exist, but I won't pack my deck only with artifact hate just to counter sol ring. Also, in deck of 100 cards, even if you pack 10 to counter artifacts, doesn't mean you will have it in opening hand, rng works.
Pod of Ur-dragons? Modified or not? If not, you are really comparing 3 pre-made decks with almost no answers to anything to your fine tuned Memnarch? Also, maybe they are casual players, not cutthroat like you. Maybe the ashamed one should be you.
So why necro it?
Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are problem cards. They are unhealthy for the format for the reason Ph03niX stated - they accelerate one player turns ahead of the other players. Whether they should be banned is debatable, but if we reach the point where we need to pack removal specifically for a 1cmc card which does nothing but tap for colorless mana, then we've reached the point where those cards need to be banned. And I would bet money that if someone used their limited artifact removal on your Sol Ring you would be doing cartwheels because that's one less removal card that could be used on an artifact you actually cared about.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Especially the first point rubs me the wrong way: "I believe a mix between the duel commander and multiplayer rules and ban list can make for a complete format."
The exact opposite would be true.
If we want to keep this format healthy we definitely need to make bigger splits.
It's like putting professional Formula-1 drivers into a Go-Kart day for 12 year olds: People will end up getting hurt.
It might hurt for a short moment but we really need to split the people that want a fair and competitive format and the people that just want to do stupid stuff and have fun.
For some short time the competitive players will be hurt since they won't find any opponents, but in the long run everyone will be happier since their opponent and the games they play will be exactly what they want it to be.
Burgeoning does the same thing and no one complains about that card. I have seen a guy go from one land to four and lager mana rocks One his second turn. Please, you are just complaining on a crappy hand
My pods were not just jank or pre-con builds. These guys had dual land and one guy tried to play jintaxis on turn 3. The shop I go to highly competitive and 30 plus people game nights at my shop. Suggestion, instead of crying fowl play and attacking me, seek out real competitive poeople to play against like me or go play with the kids pod. Our shop has no place for sore losers.
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
Let's ask the real question....what is commander doing mostly? Combos.
If you do run disruption of some kind, what happens? Combo wins.
If you know this ahead of time, not planing for it is your fault. I see way to many people play the victim or are sore loses because they wanted to play group hug or Timmy decks and could not win. They are playing to win as well with strategies that require me to do nothing response to their play or game politics. The need to learn to have answers. I am thrilled to play against opponents to challenge with their style and control package whether it by creatures or other spells to achieve the goal.
Fruit for thought....if you ban the cards that you feel are unfair, the next time someone complains about your cards for a ban hammer think about how they could have just adapted their decks, played politics in forming alliances, or everyone attack the threat! It drives me crazy when a player has board position and does not attack or tries to win the game. They just sit there, pass turn, and play nice. Wth? When you topple their position, they always complain the loudest saying they were playing nice, why me?
Answer- I payed $5 to win, not a fan of 2 hour games, and want to go home afterward and crawl into bed with beautiful wife. You are slowing me down.
Thanks for arguing philosophy and the game with me. Appreciate that. Last guy just ad hominyn'd me.
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
I try a different strategy. We make sure new players have 2-3 lands opening hand to not get hosed. I also ch class their decks for build strength if they let me. The top players, like me, all chime in to assist in stronger builds to fight us or each other. I have no issue recommending boil against me. Instead of a ban list, we work to build players to be competitive like us. It strengthens the community and keeps a constant stream of teaching the new guys to replace leaving players.
Ban lists remove teaching players like us from the ranks cause we loose interest in bowing down to sore losers.
I no way am pointing at you, just a philosophical point all of us make in my stores.
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
Dual lands does not make a player or deck competitive. (T3 Jin-Gix, on the other hand....). But with the description you are giving of yourself and your playgroup, be prepared for the response that you are the outlier of the "typical" EDH player and that your experience is not representative of the majority of players nor are you the players which the Rules Committee has in mind when they maintain the ban list.
I'm not sure what your overall intent is here and how much is meant to be a rebuttal, so I'll just respond in order. Apologies in advance if it makes my reply less cohesive or if part of it wasn't meant to be a response to me directly.
I see all sorts of plays in EDH, not just combo. YMMV. If you run (the proper) disruption (and have it handy when you need it) combo generally folds or is delayed. As an aside, this strengthens my original response to you which is that wasting removal on a Sol Ring can be a horrible play when it means that you won't have that removal when you need it on the actual threat.
What's wrong with group hug or Timmy decks? EDH isn't meant to be the format for Spikes playing optimized decks and cutthroat games (not that they shouldn't play, mind you, just that the format isn't being designed for their optimal play experience). I agree that these players should think about other decks besides their own during deck construction and pack cards which can interact with their opponents. How much is debatable, but "git gud scrub" is hardly an appropriate response to these players.
I'm not sure who the "if you ban the cards you feel are unfair" is aimed at. I'm not sure if I've ever used unfair as an argument in the many years I've been on this forum. Cards should be banned because they conflict with the reasons the RC bans cards and because the cards see actual play and are not being sufficiently handled in game.
Why scoop to a turn one Sol Ring? I've seen way more games not defined by that play than by it, but this could be attributed to my more laid back group.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Just like how wizards design their cards. Not all cards (threads in this case) were made for you.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Since both Wizards and the RC have stated a number of times that the RC is in control of the format and Wizards has no public interest in taking it over, what I would suggest is locking this thread and creating an official (so that all discussion is contained to one thread) "Dissatisfaction with how the RC manages the format" thread, or similar where you can share your opinions about what they're doing wrong or suggestions you'd make. This thread has been going on for too long to effectively port into a salvageable thread, which is why I'd lock it and start fresh.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Again, folks like you define fun differently. Combos don't have to go infinite to be annoying. Some of us like playing competitive to challenge our to more than turn creatures sideways to win.
I will agree that one deck is just boring as hell to watch, eggs.
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
I used to play with a guy that did that. He wouldn't say we were sore losers but would loudly complain about dying first. Basically he was a fine player but he was bad at reading the table. We'd all pull out either average decks that need time or stronger decks that can't handle late game situations. He'd pull out a fast and overwhelming force that also had a quality late game and then wonder why we, people who also want to win the game, would prioritize him.
Basically if you want to bring a nuke to a gun fight you better make sure you can fire the thing before you wind up riddled with bullets. Otherwise you only have yourself to blame.
I like this metaphor. Threat assessment is a two way street: you not only need to be able to detect who is the threat, but also detect when you are sending the signal that YOU are the threat and take steps to avoid that until your opponents knowing you are a threat matters less than acting.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Of course, if this behavior continues post-game, you know it's a genuine whiner and not someone who tried to play things off.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.