2 mana more than the sorcery speed one and 2 mana more than the only creatures instant speed one, seems fine to me. I am all for cards that teach people to be wary when the amount of mana people have to spend expands past 6 and into 7+
2 mana more than the sorcery speed one and 2 mana more than the only creatures instant speed one, seems fine to me. I am all for cards that teach people to be wary when the amount of mana people have to spend expands past 6 and into 7+
When a blue mage is leaving up 4+ mana every turn I'm always wary of them.
If you havn't seen the updated banlist philosophy yet, you can see the whole document here.
The whole reason this is relevant to this discussion is because of this quote:
* Problematic Casual Omnipresence. Some cards are so powerful that they become must-includes in decks that can run them and have a strongly negative impact on the games in which they appear, even when not built to optimize their effect. This does not include cards which are part of a specific two-card combination — there are too many of those available in the format to usefully preclude — but may include cards which have numerous combinations with other commonly-played cards.
1. Card becomes a must-include in deck that can run it.
2. Strong negative impact on the game when it's played, even when the deck is not built to optimize the effect.
3. Not pat of a two card combo.
We know that Cyclonic Rift is an autoinclude in every deck that has blue as part of it's color identity. Looking at the numbers we do have in the statistical breakdown of the commander metagame thread, Cyclonic Rift is currently the 6th most played card in the over 1600 deck in the database; this makes it a more popular card then Skullclamp, Sensei's Divining Top, and Phyrexian Arena. Just looking at this thread, the entire first page is players saying they jam the card in every single blue deck they own.
So #1 is rock solid. #3 is also rock solid.
The only thing left to argue is #2.
Does Cyclonic Rift have a strong negative impact on the games in which it is played?
I'd argue that this is true or we wouldn't be talking about it on the internet.
Does Cyclonic Rift have a strong negative impact on the games in which it is played?
I'd argue that this is true or we wouldn't be talking about it on the internet.
It's better to say it has a strong blowout potential more than negative. I've seen plenty of 'good' Cyclonic Rifts over the years, but I have also seen this card completely disable any chance for other people to be able to do anything in a game.
Like I said earlier - I'd be okay with the card being gone, but it probably won't hit the list.
Rift is one of those 'straddling the edge' cards. It's very rarely the card that causes the actual win. It's often enough just a tool used to stay in the game, and it punishes overextending green players - I do fear that without it, overextending to a boardstate spread over various types of permanents becomes too good a strat in more casual metas. Rift is one of the few tools that can keep this in check. White has a few too, but those are never instant speed, which becomes important when you factor in cards like Genesis Wave.
Cyclonic Rift is in essence like a last-resort nuke. Perhaps you don't WANT to need it, but having it deters some otherwise obnoxiously annoying strategies.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Lou did a pretty good job above of capturing my feelings about Rift. It can sometimes be played in an unfun manner, but it is also an exceptional answer, and one very much in line with what U should be doing. And, it can't end the game on its own without the person using it having a pretty significant board presence already, in which case something like Overrun might do just as well and is cheaper to cast. Its ubituity is problematic, but really, Cyclonic Rift's capacity to provide an answer to a big problem at least as often as it is itself a problem makes it a very poor candidate for banning in my book.
I have to admit, I'd more or less forgotten it can be cast non-overloaded, until recently someone reminded me of that in an unpleasant way as they cast it for 1U, targetting my Sram who had gotten a bit too quickly voltronned up with auras for how early in the game it was. That was an occasion when most of the table was very happy Rift was played.
I think Rift is an important card for U or U/x decks with few ways of removal. It's arguable that it's a soft removal, but since U is about buying time mostly soft removal at tempo speed is as good as a hard removal, or better.
If it was costed at 8 or 9 mana for its overload, I don't think many would be nagging about this card. While backbreaking, I do think it serves as an important magic lesson when playing against "tricky" colors. Skills like not overcommitting are important, and in a way teaches more players to have a foil for the Rift, or simply to have more things at instant speed like flash creatures.
I think Rift is an important card for U or U/x decks with few ways of removal. It's arguable that it's a soft removal, but since U is about buying time mostly soft removal at tempo speed is as good as a hard removal, or better.
If it was costed at 8 or 9 mana for its overload, I don't think many would be nagging about this card. While backbreaking, I do think it serves as an important magic lesson when playing against "tricky" colors. Skills like not overcommitting are important, and in a way teaches more players to have a foil for the Rift, or simply to have more things at instant speed like flash creatures.
There just isn't a foil for the rift though, unless you start wanting to run extremely narrow terrible cards just to answer rift. It gets around almost every form of defence in the game.
We know that Cyclonic Rift is an autoinclude in every deck that has blue as part of it's color identity.
I don't include it in any of my decks that have blue in them
That's probably just a mistake on your part.
I am divided on if cyclonic rift is actually good for the game or not. Do we want a card that can reset almost any board state in the game, making the buildup irrelevant? I want to say it's too good at instant, but acceptable at sorcery.
I don't think it really makes the board state irrelevant. Dead/exiled cards stay dead or exiled. Life totals, commander damage, and poison counters all stick around. Stalled boards are often anti-fun in and of themselves and the card rewards proactive strategies over stax. It is really, really good, however, and it should be an auto-include unless you can't reliably get to 7.
I would say that it is less banworthy than Tooth & Nail or Deadeye Navigator.
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I think Rift is an important card for U or U/x decks with few ways of removal. It's arguable that it's a soft removal, but since U is about buying time mostly soft removal at tempo speed is as good as a hard removal, or better.
If it was costed at 8 or 9 mana for its overload, I don't think many would be nagging about this card. While backbreaking, I do think it serves as an important magic lesson when playing against "tricky" colors. Skills like not overcommitting are important, and in a way teaches more players to have a foil for the Rift, or simply to have more things at instant speed like flash creatures.
There just isn't a foil for the rift though, unless you start wanting to run extremely narrow terrible cards just to answer rift. It gets around almost every form of defence in the game.
We know that Cyclonic Rift is an autoinclude in every deck that has blue as part of it's color identity.
I don't include it in any of my decks that have blue in them
That's probably just a mistake on your part.
I am divided on if cyclonic rift is actually good for the game or not. Do we want a card that can reset almost any board state in the game, making the buildup irrelevant? I want to say it's too good at instant, but acceptable at sorcery.
Yes, we do need cards like that. White gets them in the form of Planar Cleansing effects, Red gets them in the form of Obliterate effects (Which, due to them hitting lands, tend to be frowned upon) and Blue gets Devastation Tide and Cyclonic Rift. Without cards like that, spam-permanents-without-repurcussions strategies become too powerful.
Cyclonic Rift is of all those options probably the strongest, yeah. But Blue does not have the tools other colours have for permanent removal, so on that side it does balance out.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I think Rift is an important card for U or U/x decks with few ways of removal. It's arguable that it's a soft removal, but since U is about buying time mostly soft removal at tempo speed is as good as a hard removal, or better.
If it was costed at 8 or 9 mana for its overload, I don't think many would be nagging about this card. While backbreaking, I do think it serves as an important magic lesson when playing against "tricky" colors. Skills like not overcommitting are important, and in a way teaches more players to have a foil for the Rift, or simply to have more things at instant speed like flash creatures.
There just isn't a foil for the rift though, unless you start wanting to run extremely narrow terrible cards just to answer rift. It gets around almost every form of defence in the game.
We know that Cyclonic Rift is an autoinclude in every deck that has blue as part of it's color identity.
I don't include it in any of my decks that have blue in them
That's probably just a mistake on your part.
I am divided on if cyclonic rift is actually good for the game or not. Do we want a card that can reset almost any board state in the game, making the buildup irrelevant? I want to say it's too good at instant, but acceptable at sorcery.
Yes, we do need cards like that. White gets them in the form of Planar Cleansing effects, Red gets them in the form of Obliterate effects (Which, due to them hitting lands, tend to be frowned upon) and Blue gets Devastation Tide and Cyclonic Rift. Without cards like that, spam-permanents-without-repurcussions strategies become too powerful.
Cyclonic Rift is of all those options probably the strongest, yeah. But Blue does not have the tools other colours have for permanent removal, so on that side it does balance out.
Blue has lots of tools for removal of pretty much all permanent types. Remember, this is constructed, you only need a practical number of removal spells to exist. Blue has rapid hybridization, pongify, reality shift, curse of the swine, ixidron, treachery as some of its best, and even more if you go looking. Without even getting into counterspells, it already has spells to rival white's famously broken one mana exile spells and more.
Does it also deserve to have the strongest board wipe in the format, one that is explicitly one sided, instant speed, handles all permanent types except land, almost impossible to defend against, AND works as a cheap answer when a cheap answer is needed? I don't think so.
Since the ban list is not going anywhere, might as well add the clearly overtuned and overplayed cards to it. Cyclonic rift isn't an interesting play, you just fire it off when you feel threatened and you are instantly back in a winning position. You don't have to worry about jeopardizing your board state, you don't have to worry about timing it because it's instant, and you don't have to worry about defenses because the cards that stop it aren't playable. It's so mindless and I think the game would be better without it.
The fair version of the card is either:
6U
Sorcery
Return all non-land permanents you don't control to their owners hand
or
6U
Instant
Return all non-land permanents to their owners hand
The current version is just way to much upside for no thought or effort, and its auto-include status is evidence of that.
How are those more fair??? You basically sugggest 2 strictly-better versions of the already banned Upheval is the way to go? Delusional.
CRift has, and will continue to, become less impactful with every new ETBMTG set. It's still powerful, no question, but when 95% of your permanents have tacked on ETB's, it somewhat negates the effect.
It's also telegraphed if you are waiting to do it EOT on opponents turn(Blue Mage, 7+mana up, if sirens and alarms aren't going off, shame on you). It lost a ton of utility with the PoK ban if you ask me.
Powerful effect, but no different than what white has to offer. It doesn't hit lands, so that really does make it "fair", honestly.
I'm curious, what are these unplayable answers? Countermagic is played in every deck that it can. I already stated that ETB is what EDH is all about. The answers to this are no different than cards that are both currently legal and annoying, and cards that are already banned.
I think Rift is an important card for U or U/x decks with few ways of removal. It's arguable that it's a soft removal, but since U is about buying time mostly soft removal at tempo speed is as good as a hard removal, or better.
If it was costed at 8 or 9 mana for its overload, I don't think many would be nagging about this card. While backbreaking, I do think it serves as an important magic lesson when playing against "tricky" colors. Skills like not overcommitting are important, and in a way teaches more players to have a foil for the Rift, or simply to have more things at instant speed like flash creatures.
There just isn't a foil for the rift though, unless you start wanting to run extremely narrow terrible cards just to answer rift. It gets around almost every form of defence in the game.
We know that Cyclonic Rift is an autoinclude in every deck that has blue as part of it's color identity.
I don't include it in any of my decks that have blue in them
That's probably just a mistake on your part.
I doubt it,since I've only seen it played once in my group,and we all have decks that have blue in them. I think it's more of a choice when it comes to deck building.
I doubt it,since I've only seen it played once in my group,and we all have decks that have blue in them. I think it's more of a choice when it comes to deck building.
It's a near auto include in all but the most niche blue commander decks. Competitive cut throat decks use it as well due to its flexibility of being an answer early and devastating late.
All edh decks need answers, and cyclonic rift is the first answer you include in a deck that can run it.
I doubt it,since I've only seen it played once in my group,and we all have decks that have blue in them. I think it's more of a choice when it comes to deck building.
It's a near auto include in all but the most niche blue commander decks. Competitive cut throat decks use it as well due to its flexibility of being an answer early and devastating late.
All edh decks need answers, and cyclonic rift is the first answer you include in a deck that can run it.
Good thing Commander isn't about "competetive, cutthroat decks".
Every color has a staple. We've ventured down this rabbit hole before, ban this and then the next mass-wipe will be used. Having to hold up a minimum of 7 mana, and more of it needs to be protected, is more than enough downside in the EDH of today. You aren't even guaranteed to win on resolution. Most of the time it's "I'm really far behind, let's reset and see if I can recover."
Good thing Commander isn't about "competetive, cutthroat decks".
This, 100,000 times.
Seriously, this is why the vast majority of discussions in this sub-forum go nowhere. EDH/Commander is not a format designed to be competitive, but a portion of the people who regularly post ignore that and insist that the rules should reflect competitive players' concerns. Players and groups that like to play it in a competitive manner are free to do so, but in doing so they have to accept that the format's rules are not designed around that mindset, and that as such, their specific concerns are not likely to be addressed by the rules. This is why, once again, I think it would be great for a dedicated group of competitive players - rather like the people who developed the French 1v1 rules - got together to design a "competitive Commander" sub-format that addressed their concerns, rather than expecting a format that is explicitly not designed with their concerns to change for them.
Good thing Commander isn't about "competetive, cutthroat decks".
This, 100,000 times.
Seriously, this is why the vast majority of discussions in this sub-forum go nowhere. EDH/Commander is not a format designed to be competitive, but a portion of the people who regularly post ignore that and insist that the rules should reflect competitive players' concerns. Players and groups that like to play it in a competitive manner are free to do so, but in doing so they have to accept that the format's rules are not designed around that mindset, and that as such, their specific concerns are not likely to be addressed by the rules. This is why, once again, I think it would be great for a dedicated group of competitive players - rather like the people who developed the French 1v1 rules - got together to design a "competitive Commander" sub-format that addressed their concerns, rather than expecting a format that is explicitly not designed with their concerns to change for them.
In casual decks cyclonic rift only gets better because you get to overload it more often and decks are more explicitly built to have the game take longer. Your opponents typically won't go from empty board to a win in casual like they would in competitive, build up time is necessary, and cyclonic rift laughs at it. Built up a token army? Gone. Enchantment defenses? Gone. Artifact engine? Gone. Indestructible and hexproof? Still gone. But don't worry, the person who cast it loses absolutely nothing.
It's an instant speed undercosted one sided board wipe that you can't defend against in casual. Every casual blue deck should be running it, and when a card reaches that status it probably shouldn't be legal because it's too good at what it does.
And even at that point, casual metas need checks and balances too. I like to play relatively casual games (Though I do think my LGS operates a few notches above what most groups would consider to be normal play), and here too I see the issue that if nobody packs a few Nuke-Everything cards, the board becomes clogged and games go nowhere. Cyclonic Rift is one of those cards needed to combat it. If Devastation Tide were an instant (I know it can be cast at instant speed but it requires hoops to jump through) or we'd just get a Devastation Tide on instant speed without Miracle, Rift wouldn't be as needed anymore.
See, that's one problem I have with overly casual games. Yes, it's nice to shoot the breeze for a couple of hours and have a long relatively drawn out game. But when the game devolves into a slugfest where nothing ever gets done anymore, boredom can end up setting in and the game gets abandoned. Rift is one of the tools to help punch through that. We do need a few more instant-answer-everything options in a variety of colours. Because as it stands now, Rift is only considered to be as good as it is because it truly has no equal, but it is still needed. If it had equals in White and Red (Austere Command on Instant for 7 mana?) then I think it wouldn't be as omnipresent anymore.
As for defending against it; that's cute. Other blue decks have no issues with it, Green decks built around Yeva and Seedborn Muse (Of which there are plenty) can work through it, and not overextending while still pressuring the Blue player is a thing. Eventually the Blue player will have to Rift, at which point you can freely rebuild and resume the beating.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
And even at that point, casual metas need checks and balances too. I like to play relatively casual games (Though I do think my LGS operates a few notches above what most groups would consider to be normal play), and here too I see the issue that if nobody packs a few Nuke-Everything cards, the board becomes clogged and games go nowhere. Cyclonic Rift is one of those cards needed to combat it. If Devastation Tide were an instant (I know it can be cast at instant speed but it requires hoops to jump through) or we'd just get a Devastation Tide on instant speed without Miracle, Rift wouldn't be as needed anymore.
See, that's one problem I have with overly casual games. Yes, it's nice to shoot the breeze for a couple of hours and have a long relatively drawn out game. But when the game devolves into a slugfest where nothing ever gets done anymore, boredom can end up setting in and the game gets abandoned. Rift is one of the tools to help punch through that. We do need a few more instant-answer-everything options in a variety of colours. Because as it stands now, Rift is only considered to be as good as it is because it truly has no equal, but it is still needed. If it had equals in White and Red (Austere Command on Instant for 7 mana?) then I think it wouldn't be as omnipresent anymore.
As for defending against it; that's cute. Other blue decks have no issues with it, Green decks built around Yeva and Seedborn Muse (Of which there are plenty) can work through it, and not overextending while still pressuring the Blue player is a thing. Eventually the Blue player will have to Rift, at which point you can freely rebuild and resume the beating.
Why does the nuke everything need to be one sided and instant? There are lots of board resets beyond cyclonic rift.
Cyclonic rift is multiple steps above the other board wipes. Compared to something like plague wind, it's cheaper, harder to defend against, hits all permanent types instead of just creatures, instant speed instead of sorcery, and can't be used as a cheap answer when you need a cheap answer.
Cyclonic rift is not needed at all. It's just overpowered. Cards like evacuation and devastation tide already exist if people want a board reset that isn't 2 or 3 steps above the other options that exist.
Imagine if they printed
Better wrath of god
2WW
Instant
Destroy all creatures you don't control
That's what cyclonic rift looks like to me, it's just too much better.
Good thing Commander isn't about "competetive, cutthroat decks".
This, 100,000 times.
Seriously, this is why the vast majority of discussions in this sub-forum go nowhere. EDH/Commander is not a format designed to be competitive, but a portion of the people who regularly post ignore that and insist that the rules should reflect competitive players' concerns. Players and groups that like to play it in a competitive manner are free to do so, but in doing so they have to accept that the format's rules are not designed around that mindset, and that as such, their specific concerns are not likely to be addressed by the rules. This is why, once again, I think it would be great for a dedicated group of competitive players - rather like the people who developed the French 1v1 rules - got together to design a "competitive Commander" sub-format that addressed their concerns, rather than expecting a format that is explicitly not designed with their concerns to change for them.
In casual decks cyclonic rift only gets better because you get to overload it more often and decks are more explicitly built to have the game take longer. Your opponents typically won't go from empty board to a win in casual like they would in competitive, build up time is necessary, and cyclonic rift laughs at it. Built up a token army? Gone. Enchantment defenses? Gone. Artifact engine? Gone. Indestructible and hexproof? Still gone. But don't worry, the person who cast it loses absolutely nothing.
It's an instant speed undercosted one sided board wipe that you can't defend against in casual. Every casual blue deck should be running it, and when a card reaches that status it probably shouldn't be legal because it's too good at what it does.
How can they do it "more often"? Wouldn't it just be once? Also, let's keep ignoring the fact that it doesn't guarantee you anything. Again, this format is built around ETB triggers. I've had many games where I've both cast CR, and had it cast against me, where one player is in prime position to take advantage of the bounce.
One such game was recently when a Darretti player was just owning the board. Spine of Ish Sah and Paradox Engine we're out with a couple rocks. He had 2 cards in hand. Another player was ramp heavy GU, using ETB creatures like Farhaven Elf. Niv Mizzle EOT on player to his right rifted, thinking he'd get ahead of Daretti. Yeah, he taps to float 4 mana from his rocks, casts Magma Jet, untaps every rock floats I think 8-9, Rift resolves, flashes in Shimmer Myr, Paradox Engine, Sol Ring, Felwar Stone, ends up floating 10 mana after the dust settles, cast Ish Sah and destroys that players beat stick.
Either way. The card is fine for the format. It's needed to keep those that overextend in check. It's also great tech against infinite combos that need the red-zone like Kiki/Zconscripts.
At a casual table, if you hold up 7-mana to just reset the opponents board, you probably haven't put anything threatening enough into play to finish the game anyways. Like I said, more often than not, it's tech to pull you back into a game you've been losing, rather than blowing out the other players.
Exilitol 6WW
Instant
Exile all nonland permanents you don't control.
I could see something like that being printed someday. I haven't really heard any local complaints about Rift, though. It's played some and has finished off a few games over the years, but whatever. It kind of makes me think it's mostly pillow fort players or some kind of lock players that are upset about it. I don't really even think it's all that spectacular compared to other wipes. Sure, it's one sided and instant but it's also bounce, not destroy, exile, or tuck. An overloaded Rift can easily generate a lot of value for the opponents. I think most players here would rather have a blue functional reprint of Wrath of God than Rift. So exactly what kind of games are we talking about it being backbreaking in?
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When a blue mage is leaving up 4+ mana every turn I'm always wary of them.
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[RETIRED Primers]:
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The whole reason this is relevant to this discussion is because of this quote:
Sounds an aweful lot like Cyclonic Rift right?
Let's take this apart point by point:
1. Card becomes a must-include in deck that can run it.
2. Strong negative impact on the game when it's played, even when the deck is not built to optimize the effect.
3. Not pat of a two card combo.
We know that Cyclonic Rift is an autoinclude in every deck that has blue as part of it's color identity. Looking at the numbers we do have in the statistical breakdown of the commander metagame thread, Cyclonic Rift is currently the 6th most played card in the over 1600 deck in the database; this makes it a more popular card then Skullclamp, Sensei's Divining Top, and Phyrexian Arena. Just looking at this thread, the entire first page is players saying they jam the card in every single blue deck they own.
So #1 is rock solid. #3 is also rock solid.
The only thing left to argue is #2.
Does Cyclonic Rift have a strong negative impact on the games in which it is played?
I'd argue that this is true or we wouldn't be talking about it on the internet.
I don't include it in any of my decks that have blue in them
Like I said earlier - I'd be okay with the card being gone, but it probably won't hit the list.
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[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Cyclonic Rift is in essence like a last-resort nuke. Perhaps you don't WANT to need it, but having it deters some otherwise obnoxiously annoying strategies.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I have to admit, I'd more or less forgotten it can be cast non-overloaded, until recently someone reminded me of that in an unpleasant way as they cast it for 1U, targetting my Sram who had gotten a bit too quickly voltronned up with auras for how early in the game it was. That was an occasion when most of the table was very happy Rift was played.
If it was costed at 8 or 9 mana for its overload, I don't think many would be nagging about this card. While backbreaking, I do think it serves as an important magic lesson when playing against "tricky" colors. Skills like not overcommitting are important, and in a way teaches more players to have a foil for the Rift, or simply to have more things at instant speed like flash creatures.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
There just isn't a foil for the rift though, unless you start wanting to run extremely narrow terrible cards just to answer rift. It gets around almost every form of defence in the game.
That's probably just a mistake on your part.
I am divided on if cyclonic rift is actually good for the game or not. Do we want a card that can reset almost any board state in the game, making the buildup irrelevant? I want to say it's too good at instant, but acceptable at sorcery.
I would say that it is less banworthy than Tooth & Nail or Deadeye Navigator.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Yes, we do need cards like that. White gets them in the form of Planar Cleansing effects, Red gets them in the form of Obliterate effects (Which, due to them hitting lands, tend to be frowned upon) and Blue gets Devastation Tide and Cyclonic Rift. Without cards like that, spam-permanents-without-repurcussions strategies become too powerful.
Cyclonic Rift is of all those options probably the strongest, yeah. But Blue does not have the tools other colours have for permanent removal, so on that side it does balance out.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Blue has lots of tools for removal of pretty much all permanent types. Remember, this is constructed, you only need a practical number of removal spells to exist. Blue has rapid hybridization, pongify, reality shift, curse of the swine, ixidron, treachery as some of its best, and even more if you go looking. Without even getting into counterspells, it already has spells to rival white's famously broken one mana exile spells and more.
Does it also deserve to have the strongest board wipe in the format, one that is explicitly one sided, instant speed, handles all permanent types except land, almost impossible to defend against, AND works as a cheap answer when a cheap answer is needed? I don't think so.
Since the ban list is not going anywhere, might as well add the clearly overtuned and overplayed cards to it. Cyclonic rift isn't an interesting play, you just fire it off when you feel threatened and you are instantly back in a winning position. You don't have to worry about jeopardizing your board state, you don't have to worry about timing it because it's instant, and you don't have to worry about defenses because the cards that stop it aren't playable. It's so mindless and I think the game would be better without it.
The fair version of the card is either:
6U
Sorcery
Return all non-land permanents you don't control to their owners hand
or
6U
Instant
Return all non-land permanents to their owners hand
The current version is just way to much upside for no thought or effort, and its auto-include status is evidence of that.
CRift has, and will continue to, become less impactful with every new
ETBMTG set. It's still powerful, no question, but when 95% of your permanents have tacked on ETB's, it somewhat negates the effect.It's also telegraphed if you are waiting to do it EOT on opponents turn(Blue Mage, 7+mana up, if sirens and alarms aren't going off, shame on you). It lost a ton of utility with the PoK ban if you ask me.
Powerful effect, but no different than what white has to offer. It doesn't hit lands, so that really does make it "fair", honestly.
I'm curious, what are these unplayable answers? Countermagic is played in every deck that it can. I already stated that ETB is what EDH is all about. The answers to this are no different than cards that are both currently legal and annoying, and cards that are already banned.
I doubt it,since I've only seen it played once in my group,and we all have decks that have blue in them. I think it's more of a choice when it comes to deck building.
It's a near auto include in all but the most niche blue commander decks. Competitive cut throat decks use it as well due to its flexibility of being an answer early and devastating late.
All edh decks need answers, and cyclonic rift is the first answer you include in a deck that can run it.
Good thing Commander isn't about "competetive, cutthroat decks".
Every color has a staple. We've ventured down this rabbit hole before, ban this and then the next mass-wipe will be used. Having to hold up a minimum of 7 mana, and more of it needs to be protected, is more than enough downside in the EDH of today. You aren't even guaranteed to win on resolution. Most of the time it's "I'm really far behind, let's reset and see if I can recover."
This, 100,000 times.
Seriously, this is why the vast majority of discussions in this sub-forum go nowhere. EDH/Commander is not a format designed to be competitive, but a portion of the people who regularly post ignore that and insist that the rules should reflect competitive players' concerns. Players and groups that like to play it in a competitive manner are free to do so, but in doing so they have to accept that the format's rules are not designed around that mindset, and that as such, their specific concerns are not likely to be addressed by the rules. This is why, once again, I think it would be great for a dedicated group of competitive players - rather like the people who developed the French 1v1 rules - got together to design a "competitive Commander" sub-format that addressed their concerns, rather than expecting a format that is explicitly not designed with their concerns to change for them.
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
In casual decks cyclonic rift only gets better because you get to overload it more often and decks are more explicitly built to have the game take longer. Your opponents typically won't go from empty board to a win in casual like they would in competitive, build up time is necessary, and cyclonic rift laughs at it. Built up a token army? Gone. Enchantment defenses? Gone. Artifact engine? Gone. Indestructible and hexproof? Still gone. But don't worry, the person who cast it loses absolutely nothing.
It's an instant speed undercosted one sided board wipe that you can't defend against in casual. Every casual blue deck should be running it, and when a card reaches that status it probably shouldn't be legal because it's too good at what it does.
See, that's one problem I have with overly casual games. Yes, it's nice to shoot the breeze for a couple of hours and have a long relatively drawn out game. But when the game devolves into a slugfest where nothing ever gets done anymore, boredom can end up setting in and the game gets abandoned. Rift is one of the tools to help punch through that. We do need a few more instant-answer-everything options in a variety of colours. Because as it stands now, Rift is only considered to be as good as it is because it truly has no equal, but it is still needed. If it had equals in White and Red (Austere Command on Instant for 7 mana?) then I think it wouldn't be as omnipresent anymore.
As for defending against it; that's cute. Other blue decks have no issues with it, Green decks built around Yeva and Seedborn Muse (Of which there are plenty) can work through it, and not overextending while still pressuring the Blue player is a thing. Eventually the Blue player will have to Rift, at which point you can freely rebuild and resume the beating.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Why does the nuke everything need to be one sided and instant? There are lots of board resets beyond cyclonic rift.
Cyclonic rift is multiple steps above the other board wipes. Compared to something like plague wind, it's cheaper, harder to defend against, hits all permanent types instead of just creatures, instant speed instead of sorcery, and can't be used as a cheap answer when you need a cheap answer.
Cyclonic rift is not needed at all. It's just overpowered. Cards like evacuation and devastation tide already exist if people want a board reset that isn't 2 or 3 steps above the other options that exist.
Imagine if they printed
Better wrath of god
2WW
Instant
Destroy all creatures you don't control
That's what cyclonic rift looks like to me, it's just too much better.
How can they do it "more often"? Wouldn't it just be once? Also, let's keep ignoring the fact that it doesn't guarantee you anything. Again, this format is built around ETB triggers. I've had many games where I've both cast CR, and had it cast against me, where one player is in prime position to take advantage of the bounce.
One such game was recently when a Darretti player was just owning the board. Spine of Ish Sah and Paradox Engine we're out with a couple rocks. He had 2 cards in hand. Another player was ramp heavy GU, using ETB creatures like Farhaven Elf. Niv Mizzle EOT on player to his right rifted, thinking he'd get ahead of Daretti. Yeah, he taps to float 4 mana from his rocks, casts Magma Jet, untaps every rock floats I think 8-9, Rift resolves, flashes in Shimmer Myr, Paradox Engine, Sol Ring, Felwar Stone, ends up floating 10 mana after the dust settles, cast Ish Sah and destroys that players beat stick.
Either way. The card is fine for the format. It's needed to keep those that overextend in check. It's also great tech against infinite combos that need the red-zone like Kiki/Zconscripts.
At a casual table, if you hold up 7-mana to just reset the opponents board, you probably haven't put anything threatening enough into play to finish the game anyways. Like I said, more often than not, it's tech to pull you back into a game you've been losing, rather than blowing out the other players.
Instant
Exile all nonland permanents you don't control.
I could see something like that being printed someday. I haven't really heard any local complaints about Rift, though. It's played some and has finished off a few games over the years, but whatever. It kind of makes me think it's mostly pillow fort players or some kind of lock players that are upset about it. I don't really even think it's all that spectacular compared to other wipes. Sure, it's one sided and instant but it's also bounce, not destroy, exile, or tuck. An overloaded Rift can easily generate a lot of value for the opponents. I think most players here would rather have a blue functional reprint of Wrath of God than Rift. So exactly what kind of games are we talking about it being backbreaking in?