Before anything, I'll admit I'm extremely biased against this card because anyone running blue in my playgroup runs it, and I've had situations in the past where myself and few other players have built up a solid boardstate only for a single player to undo everything with the overloaded version.
Under RC Criteria:
-Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly: Nope. Although it may give a pseudo mana advantage in EDH as many people run non-land mana ramps (artifacts, creatures), but ultimately does not produce mana on its own.
-Interacts Badly With the Structure of Commander: Not really. It can bounce a commander along with everything else, but just that interaction doesn't really break the structure of the format.
-Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry: Nope. It's like a $4 card.
-Warps the Format Strategically: This one is kind of a toss-up. You can't really strategically plan around it in advance as it's an instant and not really interactive (you can counter it at best or copy it for parity). Even if you can anticipate it, there are no real 'answers' to having everything bounced back into your hand (You can hold key creatures in hand in anticipation of a boardwipe, you can bait out counters by playing a smaller bomb, but you can't really play around a mass bounce).
-Creates Undesirable Game/Game Situations: Obviously this is the biggest criteria that the card falls under. Similar to Coalition Victory, the card has the potential to "undo" the game events that occurred before card is played and gives heavy advantage to the caster (unlike other wipes/bounces that puts everyone at an equal footing (boardwipes, mass land destruction, evacuation-effects, etc..))
So just from looking at the RC criteria, I guess it doesn't really warrant a banning, but I wanted to see other people's arguments for and against the card (As I'm very aware of my bias against the card, I am more than open to changing my views on why it's not that bad after all).
If someone can do Rift at the end of the opponent's turn, then win on his or her own turn, then either that person has outplayed everyone else or his or her opponents haven't done a very good job of keeping the board in check. Either way, the opponents probably deserve to lose.
The biggest problem I have with Cyclonic Rift is its ubiquity. It is such a very good card that it really does belong - and end up - in almost every deck containing blue, which is sort of boring. You can say that about a lot of cards, though, and I don't think that really justifies a banning.
At first I found the card somewhat annoying because of its one-sided nature. Then I went on to regard it as all other boardwipes in that it's not that bad if you don't over-extend. If you try to go all out to kill people and then cyclonic rift happens and you get punished severely you kinda have nobody to blame but yourself. If someone uses EoT to win it's your faults for not seeing the tell-tale signs (Big board with a lot of untapped mana for instance). Actually, it's kinda comparable to a blue Insurrection in the sense that it punishes careless big mana spenders but it's instant but you need your own threats to win.
It's also one of the few instant panic buttons that blue has when too many dangers end up resolving so it has that important role going on for it.
Have you tried Counterspell? Overall, I would say the card is over-played and is seen in just about any EDH game I site down to, but it isn't too powerful imo
For white responses to Cyclonic Rift you could try Eerie Interlude, Ghostway, or make things less optimal for the Cyclonic Rift player by playing cards that stop the blue player from playing spells on other player's turns or your turn (e.g. Grand Abolisher).
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If someone can do Rift at the end of the opponent's turn, then win on his or her own turn, then either that person has outplayed everyone else or his or her opponents haven't done a very good job of keeping the board in check. Either way, the opponents probably deserve to lose.
The biggest problem I have with Cyclonic Rift is its ubiquity. It is such a very good card that it really does belong - and end up - in almost every deck containing blue, which is sort of boring. You can say that about a lot of cards, though, and I don't think that really justifies a banning.
You don't have to win on the spot to actually win, resetting your opponent's board to zero is usually enough.
At first I found the card somewhat annoying because of its one-sided nature. Then I went on to regard it as all other boardwipes in that it's not that bad if you don't over-extend. If you try to go all out to kill people and then cyclonic rift happens and you get punished severely you kinda have nobody to blame but yourself. If someone uses EoT to win it's your faults for not seeing the tell-tale signs (Big board with a lot of untapped mana for instance). Actually, it's kinda comparable to a blue Insurrection in the sense that it punishes careless big mana spenders but it's instant but you need your own threats to win.
It's also one of the few instant panic buttons that blue has when too many dangers end up resolving so it has that important role going on for it.
Blue without cyclonic rift is still a proud member of the three good edh colors( BUG ). It has things like evacuation if it wants instant speed clears. There is absolutely no reason for it to be able to clear artifacts, enchantments, planeswalkers and creatures ignoring hexproof, indestructibility, protection, persist, undying and probably some other defensive tools I'm forgetting about...at instant speed.
Have you tried Counterspell? Overall, I would say the card is over-played and is seen in just about any EDH game I site down to, but it isn't too powerful imo
My latest decks have been mono red, black white, green black, and red green, so no. I haven't tried counterspell.
I get a lot of satisfaction out of countering an opponent's overloaded Cyclonic Rift with Spell Snare
I don't see how Spell Snare hits enough value to play all that often, but its a cool play!
I have to agree with the general sentiment of the thread, its kinda boring and gets played in just about every blue deck, but its hardly broken. It's a good blue pseudo wipe, but I don't think I have ever seen the 'blue player alpha strikes the table' everyone who seems to want it banned uses as the reason.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
The worst I've seen it used is a Grixis SuperFriends list that runs a million different instant retrieval methods to constantly fire it at the board while a single Ashiok or Liliana takes over the game.
The fact that if you cast it EoT with a threat, one player should logically die the next turn. That can be pretty brutal.
Banworthy? Probably not. Would I miss it? Hell no.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Not banworthy, but wouldn't be unhappy to see it gone.
If I know someone runs it, I'm throwing pressure at the player until they burn it for non-overloaded or otherwise, assuming that they don't have a billion other answers for me.
It breaks stalemates hard, which is fine, but is less fine when I'm playing decks that can break stalemates just as easily and it only serves to set me back.
For people saying "well if the guy has a big board and is blue it's your fault you let him overload rift", most players only overload rift if they're in serious trouble, regardless of whether or not their own board state is huge. In fact, in many of my games, most of the wins come when the opponent actually has a fairly small board at the start of the turn becuase he just assembled an infinite combo (often with some kind of protection).
There are answers to every card in the game. Upheaval has answers. The real question is whether or not those answers are realistic, and what happens when the answers aren't there. The answers to upheaval were narrow, and when upheaval wasn't dealt with, the caster basically won the game on the spot.
Obviously I'm not saying rift = upheaval, but you can't just say "well there are ways to deal with rift, so rift is ok".
Actually, it's kinda comparable to a blue Insurrection in the sense that it punishes careless big mana spenders but it's instant but you need your own threats to win.
They're both quite satisfying to resolve. Honestly, I think Cyclonic Rift is kind of boring, but no other spell does what it does, really. Evacuation can't hit noncreature permanents, Devastation Tide and Kederekt Leviathan are not instants, Wash Out only hits one colour... Cyclonic Rift occupies a very specific niche. I think the key is that the rift only hits opponents' permanents. Without that clause, it wouldn't be so ubiquitous, I think.
Actually, it's kinda comparable to a blue Insurrection in the sense that it punishes careless big mana spenders but it's instant but you need your own threats to win.
The big difference is that with a cost of RRR5 and the ability to only do things to creatures Insurrection is a dead card at plenty of points in the game. Rift is almost always generates value, and it's never dead; I've seen people save themselves with a non-overloaded Rift more than once. It's a blowout card that can also be used for non-blowout purposes if desperate. It's always good.
That said, were I on the rules committee I'd have a hard time justifying a ban based on their criteria. And were they to disagree and ban it I'd be delighted.
Don't know if it should be banned... like other sad would not be said to see it go. Having said that, I play blue a lot too, and it is an auto include in every single deck that plays blue. It's THAT good.
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Banworthy? Probably not. Would I miss it? Hell no.
My stance as well. I like how political the card can be and typically it is the way we stop someone from going off. It's even more slick when people use it early as a single-target bounce to stop an early combo from happening. But the annoyance of watching it blow out opponents so often is just kinda meh =/
I don't know about you guys, but around here someone usually someone just Forks the overloaded Rift and punishes the person that played it, or it gets played in defense mode.
Ironically enough, I've seen "EOT Rift target obstacle, untap and win" waaaay more times than "EOT overload Rift, untap and win".
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
I don't know about you guys, but around here someone usually someone just Forks the overloaded Rift and punishes the person that played it, or it gets played in defense mode.
Ironically enough, I've seen "EOT Rift target obstacle, untap and win" waaaay more times than "EOT overload Rift, untap and win".
The only time I've ever seen "EOT Overloaded Rift, Untap, Win" is on MTGO, and that is only because the player scoops on the cast. I have never seen it actually do anything but slow the game a turn or 2, or punish a token army.
Savvy players look at 7 open mana with cards in hand as a giant red-flag and rarely play into it.
I feel like people with a problem with Rift have a more general problem with the style of gameplay that Rift exemplifies and is a big part of. I don't think as an individual card is that big of a deal no.
I have seen some funny stuff with it though, someone gets back a rift with Archaeo and neglects the fact that it says nonland only to die from a bunch of animated land creatures next go around.
I feel like people with a problem with Rift have a more general problem with the style of gameplay that Rift exemplifies and is a big part of. I don't think as an individual card is that big of a deal no.
I have seen some funny stuff with it though, someone gets back a rift with Archaeo and neglects the fact that it says nonland only to die from a bunch of animated land creatures next go around.
I've witnessed that one too - it is definitely sweet seeing the sad face that happens when they realize what is happening.
I am not sure EVERY blue deck should play it... I say that because I am the type of person who hates universal statements, because there always are exceptions... I just don't personally know any of why every blue deck shouldn't play it, but I'd assume there is at least 1 blue deck that has better choices.
That being said, I am a heavy blue player, I generally try to avoid stupid combos, unless I am specifically building a stupid combo deck (I'm looking at you damia, and Xiahou), and this has been in every single blue deck I have since it came out.
It can be 'broken', but generally in most of my decks it isn't anything more than a blue ***, save my ass, or annoy you by making you discard if you overextended.
I do not think it "warps the format" anymore than ***. Certainly not as much as sphinx, or even navigator. It is good. Very good.
The issue of "build up a solid boardstate only for this to ruin it", sounds sort of like "I over extended thinking I was safe and he smacked me hard for it". It has happened to me, and it feels so bad... but was it that this is really always amazing? or is it just really amazing and overpowered when you overextended and opponent got a lucky hit when you weren't expecting it?
I also hear shroud/hexproof are useful abilities too. If you find yourself being really hurt by this card (compare to *** costing 3 less but being sorcery), maybe add more shroud/hexproof, or hand disruption.
Blue is broken. It just is. Islands have always been the best basic land. It is well known. But on the list of blue cards that are overpowered... I wouldn't put this in the top 10.
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I basically only play EDH:
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
I am not sure EVERY blue deck should play it... I say that because I am the type of person who hates universal statements, because there always are exceptions... I just don't personally know any of why every blue deck shouldn't play it, but I'd assume there is at least 1 blue deck that has better choices.
That being said, I am a heavy blue player, I generally try to avoid stupid combos, unless I am specifically building a stupid combo deck (I'm looking at you damia, and Xiahou), and this has been in every single blue deck I have since it came out.
It can be 'broken', but generally in most of my decks it isn't anything more than a blue ***, save my ass, or annoy you by making you discard if you overextended.
I do not think it "warps the format" anymore than ***. Certainly not as much as sphinx, or even navigator. It is good. Very good.
The issue of "build up a solid boardstate only for this to ruin it", sounds sort of like "I over extended thinking I was safe and he smacked me hard for it". It has happened to me, and it feels so bad... but was it that this is really always amazing? or is it just really amazing and overpowered when you overextended and opponent got a lucky hit when you weren't expecting it?
I also hear shroud/hexproof are useful abilities too. If you find yourself being really hurt by this card (compare to *** costing 3 less but being sorcery), maybe add more shroud/hexproof, or hand disruption.
Blue is broken. It just is. Islands have always been the best basic land. It is well known. But on the list of blue cards that are overpowered... I wouldn't put this in the top 10.
I agree with a lot of what you said, I'd only like to comment that hexproof/shroud doesn't stop the card when it is overloaded. The overload ability replaces 'target' with 'each', turning it into the one-sided board wipe that it is. I am definitely in the camp of it's not bannable under the context of the banlist, but would I miss the card if it left the format? My response is no.
Damn I'm a moron sometimes... I don't know what I started rambling off at the end, was clearly not talking about cyclonic rift, don't know what I was thinking after the start of that post about hexproof...
I have been trying over the past few months to build non-blue decks, after 8 years of really only blue decks, so I will base my silly hexproof comments on about 3 months since I have used cyclonic rift.
Cyclonic Rift is blue's ***. Hexproof doesn't work on *** either
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I basically only play EDH:
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
Damn I'm a moron sometimes... I don't know what I started rambling off at the end, was clearly not talking about cyclonic rift, don't know what I was thinking after the start of that post about hexproof...
I have been trying over the past few months to build non-blue decks, after 8 years of really only blue decks, so I will base my silly hexproof comments on about 3 months since I have used cyclonic rift.
Cyclonic Rift is blue's ***. Hexproof doesn't work on *** either
I'd agree more if Cyc-rift wasn't instant speed. The EOT use of it is where it can become bothersome to others.
Cyclonic Rift
What are people's thoughts on this card?
Before anything, I'll admit I'm extremely biased against this card because anyone running blue in my playgroup runs it, and I've had situations in the past where myself and few other players have built up a solid boardstate only for a single player to undo everything with the overloaded version.
Under RC Criteria:
-Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly: Nope. Although it may give a pseudo mana advantage in EDH as many people run non-land mana ramps (artifacts, creatures), but ultimately does not produce mana on its own.
-Interacts Badly With the Structure of Commander: Not really. It can bounce a commander along with everything else, but just that interaction doesn't really break the structure of the format.
-Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry: Nope. It's like a $4 card.
-Warps the Format Strategically: This one is kind of a toss-up. You can't really strategically plan around it in advance as it's an instant and not really interactive (you can counter it at best or copy it for parity). Even if you can anticipate it, there are no real 'answers' to having everything bounced back into your hand (You can hold key creatures in hand in anticipation of a boardwipe, you can bait out counters by playing a smaller bomb, but you can't really play around a mass bounce).
-Creates Undesirable Game/Game Situations: Obviously this is the biggest criteria that the card falls under. Similar to Coalition Victory, the card has the potential to "undo" the game events that occurred before card is played and gives heavy advantage to the caster (unlike other wipes/bounces that puts everyone at an equal footing (boardwipes, mass land destruction, evacuation-effects, etc..))
So just from looking at the RC criteria, I guess it doesn't really warrant a banning, but I wanted to see other people's arguments for and against the card (As I'm very aware of my bias against the card, I am more than open to changing my views on why it's not that bad after all).
Every deck running blue plays it in my fair games. Every. single. one.
There is no way to fight against it.
I would not hate to see it gone. No more "eot cy rift to remove all opposition and win"
The biggest problem I have with Cyclonic Rift is its ubiquity. It is such a very good card that it really does belong - and end up - in almost every deck containing blue, which is sort of boring. You can say that about a lot of cards, though, and I don't think that really justifies a banning.
It's also one of the few instant panic buttons that blue has when too many dangers end up resolving so it has that important role going on for it.
It has happened many times
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You don't have to win on the spot to actually win, resetting your opponent's board to zero is usually enough.
Blue without cyclonic rift is still a proud member of the three good edh colors( BUG ). It has things like evacuation if it wants instant speed clears. There is absolutely no reason for it to be able to clear artifacts, enchantments, planeswalkers and creatures ignoring hexproof, indestructibility, protection, persist, undying and probably some other defensive tools I'm forgetting about...at instant speed.
My latest decks have been mono red, black white, green black, and red green, so no. I haven't tried counterspell.
I have to agree with the general sentiment of the thread, its kinda boring and gets played in just about every blue deck, but its hardly broken. It's a good blue pseudo wipe, but I don't think I have ever seen the 'blue player alpha strikes the table' everyone who seems to want it banned uses as the reason.
The fact that if you cast it EoT with a threat, one player should logically die the next turn. That can be pretty brutal.
Banworthy? Probably not. Would I miss it? Hell no.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
If I know someone runs it, I'm throwing pressure at the player until they burn it for non-overloaded or otherwise, assuming that they don't have a billion other answers for me.
It breaks stalemates hard, which is fine, but is less fine when I'm playing decks that can break stalemates just as easily and it only serves to set me back.
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There are answers to every card in the game. Upheaval has answers. The real question is whether or not those answers are realistic, and what happens when the answers aren't there. The answers to upheaval were narrow, and when upheaval wasn't dealt with, the caster basically won the game on the spot.
Obviously I'm not saying rift = upheaval, but you can't just say "well there are ways to deal with rift, so rift is ok".
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They're both quite satisfying to resolve. Honestly, I think Cyclonic Rift is kind of boring, but no other spell does what it does, really. Evacuation can't hit noncreature permanents, Devastation Tide and Kederekt Leviathan are not instants, Wash Out only hits one colour... Cyclonic Rift occupies a very specific niche. I think the key is that the rift only hits opponents' permanents. Without that clause, it wouldn't be so ubiquitous, I think.
The big difference is that with a cost of RRR5 and the ability to only do things to creatures Insurrection is a dead card at plenty of points in the game. Rift is almost always generates value, and it's never dead; I've seen people save themselves with a non-overloaded Rift more than once. It's a blowout card that can also be used for non-blowout purposes if desperate. It's always good.
That said, were I on the rules committee I'd have a hard time justifying a ban based on their criteria. And were they to disagree and ban it I'd be delighted.
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However, it's in a format where enter-the-battlefield abilities are very common, so at least the opponents get to reuse ETB abilities?
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Ironically enough, I've seen "EOT Rift target obstacle, untap and win" waaaay more times than "EOT overload Rift, untap and win".
The only time I've ever seen "EOT Overloaded Rift, Untap, Win" is on MTGO, and that is only because the player scoops on the cast. I have never seen it actually do anything but slow the game a turn or 2, or punish a token army.
Savvy players look at 7 open mana with cards in hand as a giant red-flag and rarely play into it.
I have seen some funny stuff with it though, someone gets back a rift with Archaeo and neglects the fact that it says nonland only to die from a bunch of animated land creatures next go around.
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That being said, I am a heavy blue player, I generally try to avoid stupid combos, unless I am specifically building a stupid combo deck (I'm looking at you damia, and Xiahou), and this has been in every single blue deck I have since it came out.
It can be 'broken', but generally in most of my decks it isn't anything more than a blue ***, save my ass, or annoy you by making you discard if you overextended.
I do not think it "warps the format" anymore than ***. Certainly not as much as sphinx, or even navigator. It is good. Very good.
The issue of "build up a solid boardstate only for this to ruin it", sounds sort of like "I over extended thinking I was safe and he smacked me hard for it". It has happened to me, and it feels so bad... but was it that this is really always amazing? or is it just really amazing and overpowered when you overextended and opponent got a lucky hit when you weren't expecting it?
I also hear shroud/hexproof are useful abilities too. If you find yourself being really hurt by this card (compare to *** costing 3 less but being sorcery), maybe add more shroud/hexproof, or hand disruption.
Blue is broken. It just is. Islands have always been the best basic land. It is well known. But on the list of blue cards that are overpowered... I wouldn't put this in the top 10.
Damia, Jenara, Xiahou Dun, Mareth, Nekusar, Oloro, Kresh, Deretti
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I have been trying over the past few months to build non-blue decks, after 8 years of really only blue decks, so I will base my silly hexproof comments on about 3 months since I have used cyclonic rift.
Cyclonic Rift is blue's ***. Hexproof doesn't work on *** either
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