actually, i just realised that teferi's protection on it basically makes natural mill the wincon of choice. I don't think any players have priority before a player's upkeep during that player's turn, right? So it's basically impossible to interact with.
well, doesn't that mean that we should shell out for them now before they get unbanned? haha.. kidding..
Honestly though, the values of the p8+ are all being flogged at higher than their actual value, so i wouldn't get them to speculate; only to play.
Also, i think that library of alexandria is probably also safe to unban, but i don't have one, nor do i want to shell out for one.
But back on topic, I'm gonna have another game afternoon come thursday or friday, so I'll have more skewed/biased anecdotal data to share.
Creates Undesirable Games / Game Situations - it makes anything with a color hose on it infinitely better, without actually comboing out and winning. Who wants to play any spell into Lifeforce when its just going to be countered? So the whole table sits around and does nothing.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Sure, life force could be bad to deal with, especially for a more toned down playgroup. Along those lines, I’d think douse, western paladin, or even earnest fellowship might be more problematic. But bear in mind, cards like vexing shusher can let you power stuff through the counters.
mana maze, on the other hand, stops players from being able to even cast stuff into the counter wall.
But on Thursday, we played a couple of games, and my notes say mana maze and mother of runes, So that can be a thing. But it still allows one spell to be cast per turn.
I gotta day though, in the 3 games played, Painter came down only once, and didn’t actually affect the game meaningfully as far as I could tell. The other cards I noted were because I was testing blind seer.
To test this further, should I try to build something that’d break Painter? Or just keep bashing it against the wall using normal decks? Any thoughts?
I'm not clear on how Mana Maze and Mother of Runes interact. As you point out, Mana Maze is a thing with Painter's Servant, but Mother of Runes only affects creatures, not spells.
Again, pretty sure the issue has to do with how many cards work differently with Painters.
-Iona locks everyone out instead one color.
-Ugin Spirit Dragon wipes lands with -0.
-All is Dust wipes the entire board instead of (mostly) non-artifacts.
-Mother of Runes completely protects creatures instead of partially.
-Mana Maze becomes Arcane Laboratory.
-Akroma’s Memorial (and the Akromas) adds unblockable and shroud.
-Pyroblast/REB turn into the best counters and spot removals in the game, instead of good but narrow answers.
-The “Spells of x color cost {1} stones” become one sided Helms of Awakenings.
And theres probably more cards that see play that deal with color and I’m forgetting about.
The issue is not necessarily you playing Painters with any of these cards, if it was all two card combos would be banned, it’s that someone might play one of them into a painters because they have to (the boardwipes) or because suddenly its very advantageous to them, and thus ruin the game ‘accidentally’.
The only similar card is really Mycosynth Lattice, who costs twice as much amd instead of accidentally breaking colored repated cards it just shuts them off, and makes all artifact removal better.
Someone mentioned Enchanted Evening, but that one would only make enchantment removal better... unless someone epse was randomly running an Aura Thief in their deck for no real reason.
If Iona was the only issue, Painters would likely not be banned, she’s just the first thing that people think of.
Of the things you list, the only ones that are anywhere near problematic, imo, are iona, ugin, and all is dust. The rest are totally fair and fun, imo.
Iona is already a dick card for dicks. It adds no fun and removes plenty of it. I don't necessarily think the card is a problem per se since I don't see it much, but PS is not the card that "ruins" Iona, she did it herself.
All is dust becomes harder-to-exploit jokulhaups. Which is also a legal card. Could create unfun situations, but it's not like it's broken or anything. You can rebuild.
Ugin is the most problematic, since it has the capacity to repeatedly keep lands off the board, and it's commonly run. But it still requires setup to avoid being simply a one-time geddon, since if you have to go higher than X=1 you'll kill PS and the lock is broken, and if you don't he could be killed by on-board threats.
Listing stuff like mother of runes or pyroblast is silly. That's exactly the sort of reason it SHOULD be legal. Did you want it to be a vanilla 1/3?
I read the post. I just don't see why that would make any difference, especially outside of the most dangerous 3. Especially considering that the more likely result of REB/memorial/anything else with a fixed color word is that they will do nothing, rather than affect everything. Especially if the player of PS is wary of them or they're already on-board. I mean, are we seriously worried about mom giving pro everything instead of pro selected color? 90% of the time it's the same thing anyway.
Is there a chance someone else will play PS and then another player will ugin lock the table on "accident"? Sure. Someone can also play vandalblast after someone else's lattice, but that doesn't happen because if you're playing lattice it's most likely because you're up to shenanigans and will take immediate and major advantage of it. Same deal for PS - if you're playing it out there, it's probably because you're about to do some shenanigans. If anyone else is able to shove it back in your face, I'd call that a feature, not a bug.
I'm not clear on how Mana Maze and Mother of Runes interact. As you point out, Mana Maze is a thing with Painter's Servant, but Mother of Runes only affects creatures, not spells.
Oh i meant that those were 2 separate cards that interacted in an 'unorthodox' way with painter, separately. Not as in they were both in play, then did silly things together with painter. Just curious, but would trying to build a deck that would utterly break painter in half be even somewhat relevant to this discussion? My assumption is that all it does is reiterate the fact that it CAN interact badly with the format.. but then again, so did hulk, animate-dragon and other 2-card combos that've recently been unbanned. So far, i've just been noting, outside of protection from colour, cards that interact with painter, regardless if painter is in play or not.
Again, pretty sure the issue has to do with how many cards work differently with Painters.
-Iona locks everyone out instead one color.
-Ugin Spirit Dragon wipes lands with -0.
-All is Dust wipes the entire board instead of (mostly) non-artifacts.
-Mother of Runes completely protects creatures instead of partially.
-Mana Maze becomes Arcane Laboratory.
-Akroma’s Memorial (and the Akromas) adds unblockable and shroud.
-Pyroblast/REB turn into the best counters and spot removals in the game, instead of good but narrow answers.
-The “Spells of x color cost {1} stones” become one sided Helms of Awakenings.
And theres probably more cards that see play that deal with color and I’m forgetting about.
The issue is not necessarily you playing Painters with any of these cards, if it was all two card combos would be banned, it’s that someone might play one of them into a painters because they have to (the boardwipes) or because suddenly its very advantageous to them, and thus ruin the game ‘accidentally’.
The only similar card is really Mycosynth Lattice, who costs twice as much amd instead of accidentally breaking colored repated cards it just shuts them off, and makes all artifact removal better.
Someone mentioned Enchanted Evening, but that one would only make enchantment removal better... unless someone epse was randomly running an Aura Thief in their deck for no real reason.
If Iona was the only issue, Painters would likely not be banned, she’s just the first thing that people think of.
I think in reality, iona and ugin are basically the only 2 cards that I'd honestly consider to be problematic in most games with a medium to low powered meta. And even then, those cards aren't a hard lock regardless of whether or not the same player owns only one or both the lock pieces. And even then, especially if we're talking about 2 separate, non-colluding players, who is honestly going to cast painter AFTER an iona has landed (or sits in the command zone)? or who would cast an all is dust, knowing that everything will be reset (unless they have a very specific way to get ahead on parity)? Or would drop a painter after an Ugin's been put into play? Especially with all is dust, because of how it wipes everything, i don't think it's going to be problematic (unless if the player is deliberately being irritating, in which case no reasonable banlist could possibly fix that).
Bear in mind that also, even if iona does lock players out from playing spells, it doesn't stop them from attacking, blocking, using abilities, and so on (which means that the player who controls painter can just attacking into borborygmos enraged to undo the lock), and so on and so forth. Heck in that extremely specific example, borborygmus could just chuck a couple of lands at the painter's face and that'd undo the lock too!
And just so you know, the other cards listed are not really problematic at all. It still lets people play the game, and its not like other cards do the same effect already (and usually at a lower cost):
the blasts are good, but not that great. I've played vindicate before in EDH, but it's not brilliant. Having to rely on a fragile guy on the board to make my 1 mana vindicate workable is not OP. akromas memorial actually becomes good now! I'd be excited about an opponent finally winning the game when they hit 7 mana rather than salty. And it doesn't really make your guys invincible either; stuff like terminus still gets those creatures, as does removing the memorial. Mother of runes usually blanks a card's effect as it is, so her effectiveness goes from great to great-plus, i'd say. and is arcane laboratory too good? those medallions become sightly better, but to be honest, i wouldn't say it's OP. You're using 2 cards and 4 mana to get the same effect as stone calendar.
Not to put words in the RC's mouth, but from what I've gathered, painter is on the banlist not specifically because of Iona/Ugin, but because it has the potential to interact badly with cards that've not been field-tested/not yet seen (and correct me if i'm completely off). But i've a feeling that a card shouldn't be banned for its potential future brokenness, and nor should it be banned for its 2-card combo-ness.
But I can say now though, that of all the games i've seen, it's not affected most games i've played, and the few times it does affect the game, it's been somewhat minimal (and painter gets blown up a lot faster than you'd actually expect. I think i'm gonna try to get my painter altered to look like bob ross - that'd make it look a lot less scary).
Well I bet Ravnica at War adds yet another nail to the coffin
Maybe I don't follow, but why? It basically just converts it to "exile all colored permanents (unless they're the same color as was named with PS)" doesn't it?
It seems like you're taking "has any interaction with PS whatsoever" as "a reason to keep PS banned". Which...is kind of ridiculous. Interactions like that are a good reason to keep it legal because they're interesting and fair. There's really only 2 interactions that stray into bad territory (that I'm aware of) which are ugin and iona (and really just ugin imo).
Because if there’s a servant in play that didnt name my color and I’m forced to play my boardwipe (read Ugin, Dust, or Rav@War) because I’ll lose otherwise it’s going to be a *****ty time, probably for everyone involved.
Everything else I mentioned is a bad interaction for everyone who isnt the player gaining advantage because of someone elses Servant.
I’ve played Mycosynth Lattice to lock people out and I’ve played against Evening x Aura Thief. They’re all in good fun when that’s the desired effect of the interactions... and also not the point since the point is that the issue is the interaction with the cards other people play, not your own two card combos.
The issue obviously isn’t people casting the painter’s into any of those cards, that would be painter’s casters fault. The problem is casting those cards into a field that already has a Painter’s.
Well I bet Ravnica at War adds yet another nail to the coffin
Maybe I don't follow, but why? It basically just converts it to "exile all colored permanents (unless they're the same color as was named with PS)" doesn't it?
It seems like you're taking "has any interaction with PS whatsoever" as "a reason to keep PS banned". Which...is kind of ridiculous. Interactions like that are a good reason to keep it legal because they're interesting and fair. There's really only 2 interactions that stray into bad territory (that I'm aware of) which are ugin and iona (and really just ugin imo).
If I recall correctly the thing PS at the time of Ugin's printing was the concern that there could be more wipes that considered color (I can't review my own post here so, I'll have to spend time looking for it....)
I vaguely remember us dangling our toes in the water about Painter's Servant for a bit, not that it was definitely coming off, but we wanted to at least discuss it. Then Ugin came out and vomited all over that idea.
Ugin always seemed like one of the most inefficient use cases because of the mana involved, 10 Mana for exiling all of everything except an Ugin that also has many points of failure seems fine.
Oh, totally forgot that Painter’s also works as a second Darkest Hour for Teysa.
A second Darkest Hour? How about a far superior one! Darkest Hour makes everything black by overwriting their other colors, which means there are no more white creatures, which shuts down half of Teysa, Orzhov Scion; Painter's Servant can make everything black in addition to their other colors, so Teysa now makes black and white tokens which, when you sac them to her first ability, make more black and white tokens, allowing you to machine gun exile every targetable creature you want. True, both setup infinite death triggers (for stuff like Blood Artist), but PS just needs Teysa, while DH needs her and a sac outlet.
That was my very first EDH deck, ten years ago. I really liked that deck, too.
This doesn't make any sense having Painter's Servant banned. I think it's more of a combo card for unusual interactions, rather than win-conditions.
A lot of the stuff mentioned is symmetrical effects.
A) It only does one player at a time, too slow for a really competitive meta.
B) The cards on their own are not particular good.
It's like at least with two card combos like Grand Architect and Pili-Pala, normally Grand Architect is still a very useful card on it's own (Pili-Pala is usually a bit dead however).
With PS + GS, they are truly bad on their own, dead cards most of the time. Sure Grindstone could be used to fuel your own graveyard, but you see where I'm coming from, you do play them as risky slots.
You have Mycosynth Lattice and any number of artifact board wipes, so this business of worrying about mass removal effects is silly business.
If your deck is running "color hoses" then again they are just dead cards until you get the Painter's Servant, so let's face it, you're building a terrible deck to start with. You are going to lose more games than win on average trying that strategy.
I can understand that there was some trepidation at some stage in commander history about having it in the format, but we are all grown up now, and there is plenty more to worry about in the format than this particular card. Un-ban it and see where it goes. I know for a fact that it'll have zero impact from a competitive point of view, but it will give creative deck making something else to consider.
Because if there’s a servant in play that didnt name my color and I’m forced to play my boardwipe (read Ugin, Dust, or Rav@War) because I’ll lose otherwise it’s going to be a *****ty time, probably for everyone involved.
Ugin I've granted. It's not a great interaction. I think it's really the only semi-reasonable concern though.
All is dust + PS = jokulhaups, basically. A card that is legal already. Will the PS "synergy" with all is dust create situations where a group that wouldn't be ok with jokulhaups basically playing jokulhaups on accident? Possibly, sure. I mean nobody's calling for living plane to get banned, that can do the same thing with a board wipe. Not really seeing a problem here tbh.
But most importantly...I was not responding to all is dust or ugin, which both at least kind of make sense. Ravnica at war is...well, first of all, a really bad card that won't get played, but also really not a problematic interaction AT ALL with painter's servant.
Oh, totally forgot that Painter’s also works as a second Darkest Hour for Teysa.
Edit 1 Turns Jaya into a reusable vindicate too.
Edit 2 and interacts with most if not all of the non elder Shard legendary dragons.
I honestly can't understand how you could see either of those latter two things as problematic. Those are exactly the reasons it should be legal. Rith making 30 saprolings? That's a sweet interaction. And darigaaz dealing 6 damage isn't even good, let alone problematic. Maybe the invasion dragons wouldn't suck so much with PS around.
Teysa is a known combo, no more dangerous than curiosity...except actually way less dangerous since teysa needs a sac outlet to really do anything with it (she can exile all targetable creatures if you have 3 other creatures, but that's a fair amount of setup and also not particularly problematic imo).
Seriously, all these posts seem to indicate that you think ANY interaction with PS is bad. Your argument is nothing but a gish gallop.
The one that I see as most problematic is Wash Out because it emulates a card already on the list for a similar mana cost (if not two cards instead of one)
Because running Jokulhaups is one thing and being 'forced' to cast one is another, specially when that isn't even the intent of the card in your deck (also Jokulhaups spares enchantments so you can come up on top of it). Living lands interacts badly with less cards than Servant, ie basically just boardwipes and Linvala.
Thirty Saprolings (which seems like a very likely undercount) into puprophorus or repeatably discarding peoples hands isn't particularly sweet.
Agreed. I would want to know what situation we're worried about here, exactly.
Anyways dunno why you even bothered asking that since you've constantly dismissed everything that doesn't agree with you, but that's to be expected since it's what you've been doing across several different threads.
I’ve played Mycosynth Lattice to lock people out and I’ve played against Evening x Aura Thief. They’re all in good fun when that’s the desired effect of the interactions... and also not the point since the point is that the issue is the interaction with the cards other people play, not your own two card combos.
That sure is a lot of cards that interact poorly with Mycosynth Lattice. And what do you know, a lot of them actually see significant play in EDH already, meaning it is more likely an opponent will have one of these cards in their deck when you play your Lattice. As opposed to... Deathgrip? Yes, clearly Painter's Servant is the one that needs to be banned.
The only similar card is really Mycosynth Lattice, who costs twice as much and instead of accidentally breaking colored repeated cards it just shuts them off, and makes all artifact removal better.
They’re all in good fun when that’s the desired effect of the interactions
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
well, doesn't that mean that we should shell out for them now before they get unbanned? haha.. kidding..
Honestly though, the values of the p8+ are all being flogged at higher than their actual value, so i wouldn't get them to speculate; only to play.
Also, i think that library of alexandria is probably also safe to unban, but i don't have one, nor do i want to shell out for one.
But back on topic, I'm gonna have another game afternoon come thursday or friday, so I'll have more skewed/biased anecdotal data to share.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
mana maze, on the other hand, stops players from being able to even cast stuff into the counter wall.
But on Thursday, we played a couple of games, and my notes say mana maze and mother of runes, So that can be a thing. But it still allows one spell to be cast per turn.
I gotta day though, in the 3 games played, Painter came down only once, and didn’t actually affect the game meaningfully as far as I could tell. The other cards I noted were because I was testing blind seer.
To test this further, should I try to build something that’d break Painter? Or just keep bashing it against the wall using normal decks? Any thoughts?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
-Iona locks everyone out instead one color.
-Ugin Spirit Dragon wipes lands with -0.
-All is Dust wipes the entire board instead of (mostly) non-artifacts.
-Mother of Runes completely protects creatures instead of partially.
-Mana Maze becomes Arcane Laboratory.
-Akroma’s Memorial (and the Akromas) adds unblockable and shroud.
-Pyroblast/REB turn into the best counters and spot removals in the game, instead of good but narrow answers.
-The “Spells of x color cost {1} stones” become one sided Helms of Awakenings.
And theres probably more cards that see play that deal with color and I’m forgetting about.
The issue is not necessarily you playing Painters with any of these cards, if it was all two card combos would be banned, it’s that someone might play one of them into a painters because they have to (the boardwipes) or because suddenly its very advantageous to them, and thus ruin the game ‘accidentally’.
The only similar card is really Mycosynth Lattice, who costs twice as much amd instead of accidentally breaking colored repated cards it just shuts them off, and makes all artifact removal better.
Someone mentioned Enchanted Evening, but that one would only make enchantment removal better... unless someone epse was randomly running an Aura Thief in their deck for no real reason.
If Iona was the only issue, Painters would likely not be banned, she’s just the first thing that people think of.
Iona is already a dick card for dicks. It adds no fun and removes plenty of it. I don't necessarily think the card is a problem per se since I don't see it much, but PS is not the card that "ruins" Iona, she did it herself.
All is dust becomes harder-to-exploit jokulhaups. Which is also a legal card. Could create unfun situations, but it's not like it's broken or anything. You can rebuild.
Ugin is the most problematic, since it has the capacity to repeatedly keep lands off the board, and it's commonly run. But it still requires setup to avoid being simply a one-time geddon, since if you have to go higher than X=1 you'll kill PS and the lock is broken, and if you don't he could be killed by on-board threats.
Listing stuff like mother of runes or pyroblast is silly. That's exactly the sort of reason it SHOULD be legal. Did you want it to be a vanilla 1/3?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Is there a chance someone else will play PS and then another player will ugin lock the table on "accident"? Sure. Someone can also play vandalblast after someone else's lattice, but that doesn't happen because if you're playing lattice it's most likely because you're up to shenanigans and will take immediate and major advantage of it. Same deal for PS - if you're playing it out there, it's probably because you're about to do some shenanigans. If anyone else is able to shove it back in your face, I'd call that a feature, not a bug.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Oh i meant that those were 2 separate cards that interacted in an 'unorthodox' way with painter, separately. Not as in they were both in play, then did silly things together with painter. Just curious, but would trying to build a deck that would utterly break painter in half be even somewhat relevant to this discussion? My assumption is that all it does is reiterate the fact that it CAN interact badly with the format.. but then again, so did hulk, animate-dragon and other 2-card combos that've recently been unbanned. So far, i've just been noting, outside of protection from colour, cards that interact with painter, regardless if painter is in play or not.
I think in reality, iona and ugin are basically the only 2 cards that I'd honestly consider to be problematic in most games with a medium to low powered meta. And even then, those cards aren't a hard lock regardless of whether or not the same player owns only one or both the lock pieces. And even then, especially if we're talking about 2 separate, non-colluding players, who is honestly going to cast painter AFTER an iona has landed (or sits in the command zone)? or who would cast an all is dust, knowing that everything will be reset (unless they have a very specific way to get ahead on parity)? Or would drop a painter after an Ugin's been put into play? Especially with all is dust, because of how it wipes everything, i don't think it's going to be problematic (unless if the player is deliberately being irritating, in which case no reasonable banlist could possibly fix that).
Bear in mind that also, even if iona does lock players out from playing spells, it doesn't stop them from attacking, blocking, using abilities, and so on (which means that the player who controls painter can just attacking into borborygmos enraged to undo the lock), and so on and so forth. Heck in that extremely specific example, borborygmus could just chuck a couple of lands at the painter's face and that'd undo the lock too!
And just so you know, the other cards listed are not really problematic at all. It still lets people play the game, and its not like other cards do the same effect already (and usually at a lower cost):
the blasts are good, but not that great. I've played vindicate before in EDH, but it's not brilliant. Having to rely on a fragile guy on the board to make my 1 mana vindicate workable is not OP. akromas memorial actually becomes good now! I'd be excited about an opponent finally winning the game when they hit 7 mana rather than salty. And it doesn't really make your guys invincible either; stuff like terminus still gets those creatures, as does removing the memorial. Mother of runes usually blanks a card's effect as it is, so her effectiveness goes from great to great-plus, i'd say. and is arcane laboratory too good? those medallions become sightly better, but to be honest, i wouldn't say it's OP. You're using 2 cards and 4 mana to get the same effect as stone calendar.
I've a funny feeling you've not played against players who use enchanted evening and mycosynth lattice in an "oppressive" way. opalescence/march of the machines kills off all lands and leaves the land-lock in play. There are also cards that make all your artefacts indestructible, hanna's custory gives them shroud, sterling grove/fountain watch gives your enchantments shroud. But i don't think 2-card combos with niche cards are really an angle that the RC looks at to make a card banned.
Not to put words in the RC's mouth, but from what I've gathered, painter is on the banlist not specifically because of Iona/Ugin, but because it has the potential to interact badly with cards that've not been field-tested/not yet seen (and correct me if i'm completely off). But i've a feeling that a card shouldn't be banned for its potential future brokenness, and nor should it be banned for its 2-card combo-ness.
But I can say now though, that of all the games i've seen, it's not affected most games i've played, and the few times it does affect the game, it's been somewhat minimal (and painter gets blown up a lot faster than you'd actually expect. I think i'm gonna try to get my painter altered to look like bob ross - that'd make it look a lot less scary).
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
It seems like you're taking "has any interaction with PS whatsoever" as "a reason to keep PS banned". Which...is kind of ridiculous. Interactions like that are a good reason to keep it legal because they're interesting and fair. There's really only 2 interactions that stray into bad territory (that I'm aware of) which are ugin and iona (and really just ugin imo).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Everything else I mentioned is a bad interaction for everyone who isnt the player gaining advantage because of someone elses Servant.
I’ve played Mycosynth Lattice to lock people out and I’ve played against Evening x Aura Thief. They’re all in good fun when that’s the desired effect of the interactions... and also not the point since the point is that the issue is the interaction with the cards other people play, not your own two card combos.
The issue obviously isn’t people casting the painter’s into any of those cards, that would be painter’s casters fault. The problem is casting those cards into a field that already has a Painter’s.
If I recall correctly the thing PS at the time of Ugin's printing was the concern that there could be more wipes that considered color (I can't review my own post here so, I'll have to spend time looking for it....)
Edit 1 Turns Jaya into a reusable vindicate too.
Edit 2 and interacts with most if not all of the non elder Shard legendary dragons.
That was my very first EDH deck, ten years ago. I really liked that deck, too.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter
A lot of the stuff mentioned is symmetrical effects.
Sure you can do Painter's Servant and Grindstone, but..
It's like at least with two card combos like Grand Architect and Pili-Pala, normally Grand Architect is still a very useful card on it's own (Pili-Pala is usually a bit dead however).
With PS + GS, they are truly bad on their own, dead cards most of the time. Sure Grindstone could be used to fuel your own graveyard, but you see where I'm coming from, you do play them as risky slots.
You have Mycosynth Lattice and any number of artifact board wipes, so this business of worrying about mass removal effects is silly business.
If your deck is running "color hoses" then again they are just dead cards until you get the Painter's Servant, so let's face it, you're building a terrible deck to start with. You are going to lose more games than win on average trying that strategy.
I can understand that there was some trepidation at some stage in commander history about having it in the format, but we are all grown up now, and there is plenty more to worry about in the format than this particular card. Un-ban it and see where it goes. I know for a fact that it'll have zero impact from a competitive point of view, but it will give creative deck making something else to consider.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
All is dust + PS = jokulhaups, basically. A card that is legal already. Will the PS "synergy" with all is dust create situations where a group that wouldn't be ok with jokulhaups basically playing jokulhaups on accident? Possibly, sure. I mean nobody's calling for living plane to get banned, that can do the same thing with a board wipe. Not really seeing a problem here tbh.
But most importantly...I was not responding to all is dust or ugin, which both at least kind of make sense. Ravnica at war is...well, first of all, a really bad card that won't get played, but also really not a problematic interaction AT ALL with painter's servant. I honestly can't understand how you could see either of those latter two things as problematic. Those are exactly the reasons it should be legal. Rith making 30 saprolings? That's a sweet interaction. And darigaaz dealing 6 damage isn't even good, let alone problematic. Maybe the invasion dragons wouldn't suck so much with PS around.
Teysa is a known combo, no more dangerous than curiosity...except actually way less dangerous since teysa needs a sac outlet to really do anything with it (she can exile all targetable creatures if you have 3 other creatures, but that's a fair amount of setup and also not particularly problematic imo).
Seriously, all these posts seem to indicate that you think ANY interaction with PS is bad. Your argument is nothing but a gish gallop.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Thirty Saprolings (which seems like a very likely undercount) into puprophorus or repeatably discarding peoples hands isn't particularly sweet.
Anyways dunno why you even bothered asking that since you've constantly dismissed everything that doesn't agree with you, but that's to be expected since it's what you've been doing across several different threads.
- Akroma's Vengeance
- Austere Command
- Bane of Progress
- Cleansing Nova
- Consulate Crackdown
- Creeping Corrosion
- Energy Flux
- Fracturing Gust
- Furnace Dragon
- Hammer Mage
- Hellkite Tyrant
- Hurkyl's Recall
- Kalemne's Captain
- Kataki, War's Wage
- Magus of the Disk
- Merciless Eviction
- Nevinyrral's Disk
- Pulverize
- Purify
- Rampage of the Clans
- Rebuild
- Reduce to Dreams
- Scrap Mastery
- Seeds of Innocence
- Serenity
- Shatterstorm
- Subterranean Tremors
- Void
- Wave of Vitriol
That sure is a lot of cards that interact poorly with Mycosynth Lattice. And what do you know, a lot of them actually see significant play in EDH already, meaning it is more likely an opponent will have one of these cards in their deck when you play your Lattice. As opposed to... Deathgrip? Yes, clearly Painter's Servant is the one that needs to be banned.