What with the official stance always varying and shifting towards not allowing Wishes in the official rules, do people think that wishes should or shouldn't be allowed?
"Optional" got renamed to "House Rules", but there's still a section on sideboards and wishes in there. Frankly, I would like to pull it out. People keep claiming sideboards are an "official" part of the Commander rules because that's there.
What strikes me as strange is people who want to play wishes seem to want to spring it on people, as opposed to ask 'hey can I use a wishboard'? Obviously not everyone, but I can't see another reason it can't be optional like now.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
"Optional" got renamed to "House Rules", but there's still a section on sideboards and wishes in there. Frankly, I would like to pull it out. People keep claiming sideboards are an "official" part of the Commander rules because that's there.
I agree with you. I would actually prefer removing the sideboard rule entirely, and just adding a line to the ban list that references all of these cards, like you did with the moxen.
Currently, wishes do not work without prior consent of the playgroup, and that would still hold true if this change were made. However, this setup it would have the following advantages:
1. It would prevent the "Surprise! Wishboard!" misinterpretation that you mentioned;
2. It would reduce the number of format-specific rules needed on the website;
3. It would have the bonus of not explicitly contradicting that one WotC ruling of "Wishes can grab any card outside of a tournament setting."
Philosophically, Wishes could fall into the "Creates Undesireable Situations" category like Panoptic Mirror, in that they look fun, but in practice they are not.
For some reason, people have this idea that having a "wishboard" falls under some sort of hyper-competitive label that only super-spikes want to use, but in all honesty the whole idea of a wishboard is really just for time savings. By making people think about their wish options ahead of time and having the cards readily available, you avoid the nightmare scenario of someone casting a wish then flipping through their binders (or even worse, a shoe box) trying to find the ideal card.
You also aren't increasing the frequency of tutoring up one of your wishboard cards (versus a 4-of format where running 4 wishes, 3 MD, and 1 SB gives you access to 7 copies of a card); in fact, wishboard cards are actually less likely to show up because there is no way to draw the card naturally. What it does allow for is flexibility, giving you a range of options that may either come in handy at some point or create some epic situation because you had potential access to an obscure card that would normally never see the light of day.
I also think that calling it a wishboard instead of sideboard should help distinguish between the two, as I agree that playing with sideboards is lame for a casual environment; so we should specifically state that it's a sideboard strictly for allowing a Wish (or Ring of Ma'rûf, Spawnsire of Ulamog, Research//Development, and now Coax From the Blind Eternities) to function without disrupting the game.
From a rules standpoint, there would just need some language to clear up a few things that most people already assume about wishboards, but need to be explicitly stated; that the cards need to conform to the color identity of your commander, that the highlander rule still applies (cards in your maindeck can't be in your wishboard and vice versa), and that these cards are NOT in exile so cards like Pull From Eternity or Riftsweeper have no effect on them (which may already be covered by the comp rules anyway). If there was going to be a set limit to the number of cards, that would need to be stated as well (10 seems like a good number).
Overall, I think that there would be zero downside to allowing wishes to function as printed. You can do it in a way that doesn't force people to play with a sideboard, and you can finally get rid of the last vestiges of format-specific eratta from EDH.
"Optional" got renamed to "House Rules", but there's still a section on sideboards and wishes in there. Frankly, I would like to pull it out. People keep claiming sideboards are an "official" part of the Commander rules because that's there.
I agree with you. I would actually prefer removing the sideboard rule entirely, and just adding a line to the ban list that references all of these cards, like you did with the moxen.
Currently, wishes do not work without prior consent of the playgroup, and that would still hold true if this change were made. However, this setup it would have the following advantages:
1. It would prevent the "Surprise! Wishboard!" misinterpretation that you mentioned;
2. It would reduce the number of format-specific rules needed on the website;
3. It would have the bonus of not explicitly contradicting that one WotC ruling of "Wishes can grab any card outside of a tournament setting."
Philosophically, Wishes could fall into the "Creates Undesireable Situations" category like Panoptic Mirror, in that they look fun, but in practice they are not.
With the optional sideboard rule now gone and Coax from the Blind Eternities recently printed, I am revising my stance on Wishes. The current setup (one format-specific rule and nothing else) is best for what they want to achieve.
I seriously doubt wishes create undesirable game states any more than Demonic Tutor. They just add a card to your hand just like any other tutor and certainly aren't as strong as the good tutors since they can only get things you aren't playing. They can actually be quite interesting, bringing in lots of cards that wouldn't otherwise be in the game, like Booster Tutor or Stocking Tiger.
The only "problem" I see is that you could fill your wishboard with powerful color hating cards that you would not otherwise maindeck: Golden Wish for Light of Day/Conversion or Burning Wish for Anarchy/Boiling Seas. Wouldn't allowing these not in turn require the banning of some of the old truly crippling color hate cards?
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The only "problem" I see is that you could fill your wishboard with powerful color hating cards that you would not otherwise maindeck: Golden Wish for Light of Day/Conversion or Burning Wish for Anarchy/Boiling Seas. Wouldn't allowing these not in turn require the banning of some of the old truly crippling color hate cards?
I don't think it nessecarily has to be that way.
If the RC made wishboards part of the official format rules then they would also get to set the size of the sideboard. There is no reason EDH should have to stick to the standard 15 card board used by 60 card formats. Even in 60 card formats, sideboard aren't 15 unique cards; 4/4/4/3 is close to standard for aggro and most control sideboards have fewer then 9 unique cards.
It would be possible for the RC to tinker with the sideboard size and make wishes more of a "create your own split card". Sideboard size of 2 really is a split card, while 3 makes them into charms. How many powerful color hosers are you going to jam if you're sideboard size is limited by the format rules to be a small number? Wouldn't you rather play something more versatile?
It also gives the RC a switch to tinker with wishboards as nessecary aloowing them to tweak the size up or down depending on how players are using them.
What the RC really needs to do is put forth an established set of "variant" rules addressing this. They took down the houserule suggestions because they caused confusion as to their actual applicability. A set of variant rules would let people create their own set of houserules with "official" backing while not fundamentally changing the format.
Wishes are a casualty of the RC's general unwillingness to establish a set of quantifiable criteria on banning. They are de facto banned from tournament play (along with things like Spawnsire of Ulamog and Research//Development to a lesser degree) while causing potential annoyance in normal play while invariably some person decides to scour his entire collection. They are interesting cards that give you fun choices, but as written they do not mesh well in the format without some further support.
Wishes are a casualty of the RC's general unwillingness to establish a set of quantifiable criteria on banning.
Could you clarify why you think this is a ban criteria issue? What I heard from them and others was 'people don't usually do it, so when it comes up people got into conflict'. How is people not knowing in advance if Wishboards are allowed related to the ban list? What you posted was about tournament, which isnt very applicable to the majority of games.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Wishes are a casualty of the RC's general unwillingness to establish a set of quantifiable criteria on banning.
Could you clarify why you think this is a ban criteria issue? What I heard from them and others was 'people don't usually do it, so when it comes up people got into conflict'. How is people not knowing in advance if Wishboards are allowed related to the ban list? What you posted was about tournament, which isnt very applicable to the majority of games.
I think that the idea here is that the wishes are "banned" even without being mentioned on the banned list due to rule 13 (13. Abilities which refer to other cards owned outside the game (Wishes, Spawnsire, Research, Ring of Ma'ruf) do not function in Commander without prior agreement on their scope from the playgroup.). Because of Rule 13, the default for tournaments, MTGO, or public games is that these cards do nothing, so for all intents and purposes they are banned. It's a point of view that many people share even though semantically its incorrect.
What I am finding is that people accept that Wishes are by defacto banned because people feel empowered to tell other people that they cannot play them. I just recently started trying to play them, constructing a 10 card wishboard that adheres to the color identity and singleton restrictions of EDH, and I find that when I talk about this to many players, I frequently get responses such as "I would never allow someone to play Wishes or a Wishboard against me." This empowerment is even bolder than for things like the color hosers that people are afraid will be the targets of the Wishes, such as Boil, Anarchy, or Boiling Seas. For a card that is similar to a normal Tutor, and more effectively plays more like a DIY modal spell, whose biggest problems are the lack of guidance on how they can be used without abuse, combined with the fact that the most serious concern is for those who will combine them with cards that are narrow hate cards, this empowerment to deny their use seems a little unjustified. Imagine if players were empowered to feel justified in denying other players the ability to play similar power or function cards like Tutors, or just other cards that they dislike. That is a little harsh, and seems like it could lead to more hurt feelings than just simply clarifying how they can be used without abuse.
What I am finding is that people accept that Wishes are by defacto banned because people feel empowered to tell other people that they cannot play them. I just recently started trying to play them, constructing a 10 card wishboard that adheres to the color identity and singleton restrictions of EDH, and I find that when I talk about this to many players, I frequently get responses such as "I would never allow someone to play Wishes or a Wishboard against me." This empowerment is even bolder than for things like the color hosers that people are afraid will be the targets of the Wishes, such as Boil, Anarchy, or Boiling Seas. For a card that is similar to a normal Tutor, and more effectively plays more like a DIY modal spell, whose biggest problems are the lack of guidance on how they can be used without abuse, combined with the fact that the most serious concern is for those who will combine them with cards that are narrow hate cards, this empowerment to deny their use seems a little unjustified. Imagine if players were empowered to feel justified in denying other players the ability to play similar power or function cards like Tutors, or just other cards that they dislike. That is a little harsh, and seems like it could lead to more hurt feelings than just simply clarifying how they can be used without abuse.
Just make the Wishes work like they do in every other format; they pull cards from your sideboard. Or at least outright ban them. This "these cards are legal but literally do nothing" nonsense is just the worst possible way to handle this.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
Impossible, they do pull cards from your sideboard in Commander. It's just that Commander has no sideboards.
"Abilities which refer to other cards owned outside the game (Wishes, Spawnsire, Research, Ring of Ma'ruf) do not function in Commander without prior agreement on their scope from the playgroup."
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
From the card rulings for Burning Wish, Cunning Wish, Death Wish, Golden Wish, and Living Wish:
In a sanctioned event, a card that’s “outside the game” is one that’s in your sideboard. In an unsanctioned event, you may choose any card from your collection.
Unless I'm overlooking part of the conversation and we're talking something other than casual commander, the discussion of sideboards is irrelevant because in casual games wishes let you search for absolutely anything you own and have available. They only "do nothing" because the rules committee has a rule that neuters them, not because they literally do nothing with the normal scope of the game.
From the card rulings for Burning Wish, Cunning Wish, Death Wish, Golden Wish, and Living Wish:
In a sanctioned event, a card that’s “outside the game” is one that’s in your sideboard. In an unsanctioned event, you may choose any card from your collection.
Unless I'm overlooking part of the conversation and we're talking something other than casual commander, the discussion of sideboards is irrelevant because in casual games wishes let you search for absolutely anything you own and have available. They only "do nothing" because the rules committee has a rule that neuters them, not because they literally do nothing with the normal scope of the game.
It's a bit weird that this rule still exists since it's basically a rule that changes the way cards work in the format. I thought they decided not to do that after trying Karakas not functioning on commanders.
It doesn't say they do nothing, it says that you need to discuss the scope of what you can search for with the playgroup beforehand. Maybe you have a wishboard, or a stack of 150 Eldrazi for Spawnsire, or everything in your backpack, the group needs to agree to it before hand. It seems to be intended to prevent someone from running a wish for a few specific purposes, then getting into a situation where a specific card they own but never planned on using is suddenly good, and casting the wish then running off to go find it in their collection. If a group is fine with you searching through your binder for whatever random card's niche just came up, great. If not, they might limit you to a wishboard. Its another one of those rules that seems meant to guide playgroups to the solution that works for them while giving them options.
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Has anyone played in a group that had an established system for how wishes function? I've never been in a group that had one, to me it seems like the rule is a ban on wishes then an invition to the group for them to figure out a solution.
Furthermore, it just seems odd to me that for these cards alone their is a special rule to turn them off unless players decide how they should function.
Should we have a rule that says extra turn cards don't do anything unless the group agrees on their scope? Do you get an extra turn? Do you make a player skip their turn?
What about with color identity? Are Extort cards not permitted unless the group agrees upon them being in monocolor decks or limited only to Orzhov?
Nah, we don't have that in EDH. The RC has in all other circumstances let the cards function as they are printed y WotC, which means that extra turns do what they say as well as Extort's color identiy matches what is printed in the card. Wishes say clearly say that "You choose a card from outside the game" and add it to your hand. They should function as printed too.
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What with the official stance always varying and shifting towards not allowing Wishes in the official rules, do people think that wishes should or shouldn't be allowed?
That rule went into place in 2010 and hasn't changed since.
Didn't the official site change more recently to not even include it in the optional suggestions?
Currently, wishes do not work without prior consent of the playgroup, and that would still hold true if this change were made. However, this setup it would have the following advantages:
1. It would prevent the "Surprise! Wishboard!" misinterpretation that you mentioned;
2. It would reduce the number of format-specific rules needed on the website;
3. It would have the bonus of not explicitly contradicting that one WotC ruling of "Wishes can grab any card outside of a tournament setting."
Philosophically, Wishes could fall into the "Creates Undesireable Situations" category like Panoptic Mirror, in that they look fun, but in practice they are not.
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You also aren't increasing the frequency of tutoring up one of your wishboard cards (versus a 4-of format where running 4 wishes, 3 MD, and 1 SB gives you access to 7 copies of a card); in fact, wishboard cards are actually less likely to show up because there is no way to draw the card naturally. What it does allow for is flexibility, giving you a range of options that may either come in handy at some point or create some epic situation because you had potential access to an obscure card that would normally never see the light of day.
I also think that calling it a wishboard instead of sideboard should help distinguish between the two, as I agree that playing with sideboards is lame for a casual environment; so we should specifically state that it's a sideboard strictly for allowing a Wish (or Ring of Ma'rûf, Spawnsire of Ulamog, Research//Development, and now Coax From the Blind Eternities) to function without disrupting the game.
From a rules standpoint, there would just need some language to clear up a few things that most people already assume about wishboards, but need to be explicitly stated; that the cards need to conform to the color identity of your commander, that the highlander rule still applies (cards in your maindeck can't be in your wishboard and vice versa), and that these cards are NOT in exile so cards like Pull From Eternity or Riftsweeper have no effect on them (which may already be covered by the comp rules anyway). If there was going to be a set limit to the number of cards, that would need to be stated as well (10 seems like a good number).
Overall, I think that there would be zero downside to allowing wishes to function as printed. You can do it in a way that doesn't force people to play with a sideboard, and you can finally get rid of the last vestiges of format-specific eratta from EDH.
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I don't think it nessecarily has to be that way.
If the RC made wishboards part of the official format rules then they would also get to set the size of the sideboard. There is no reason EDH should have to stick to the standard 15 card board used by 60 card formats. Even in 60 card formats, sideboard aren't 15 unique cards; 4/4/4/3 is close to standard for aggro and most control sideboards have fewer then 9 unique cards.
It would be possible for the RC to tinker with the sideboard size and make wishes more of a "create your own split card". Sideboard size of 2 really is a split card, while 3 makes them into charms. How many powerful color hosers are you going to jam if you're sideboard size is limited by the format rules to be a small number? Wouldn't you rather play something more versatile?
It also gives the RC a switch to tinker with wishboards as nessecary aloowing them to tweak the size up or down depending on how players are using them.
Wishes are a casualty of the RC's general unwillingness to establish a set of quantifiable criteria on banning. They are de facto banned from tournament play (along with things like Spawnsire of Ulamog and Research//Development to a lesser degree) while causing potential annoyance in normal play while invariably some person decides to scour his entire collection. They are interesting cards that give you fun choices, but as written they do not mesh well in the format without some further support.
I think that the idea here is that the wishes are "banned" even without being mentioned on the banned list due to rule 13 (13. Abilities which refer to other cards owned outside the game (Wishes, Spawnsire, Research, Ring of Ma'ruf) do not function in Commander without prior agreement on their scope from the playgroup.). Because of Rule 13, the default for tournaments, MTGO, or public games is that these cards do nothing, so for all intents and purposes they are banned. It's a point of view that many people share even though semantically its incorrect.
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Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
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No, they do actual nothing.
In a sanctioned event, a card that’s “outside the game” is one that’s in your sideboard. In an unsanctioned event, you may choose any card from your collection.
Unless I'm overlooking part of the conversation and we're talking something other than casual commander, the discussion of sideboards is irrelevant because in casual games wishes let you search for absolutely anything you own and have available. They only "do nothing" because the rules committee has a rule that neuters them, not because they literally do nothing with the normal scope of the game.
It's a bit weird that this rule still exists since it's basically a rule that changes the way cards work in the format. I thought they decided not to do that after trying Karakas not functioning on commanders.
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Furthermore, it just seems odd to me that for these cards alone their is a special rule to turn them off unless players decide how they should function.
Should we have a rule that says extra turn cards don't do anything unless the group agrees on their scope? Do you get an extra turn? Do you make a player skip their turn?
What about with color identity? Are Extort cards not permitted unless the group agrees upon them being in monocolor decks or limited only to Orzhov?
Nah, we don't have that in EDH. The RC has in all other circumstances let the cards function as they are printed y WotC, which means that extra turns do what they say as well as Extort's color identiy matches what is printed in the card. Wishes say clearly say that "You choose a card from outside the game" and add it to your hand. They should function as printed too.