Well these predictions have all come to naught, haven't they?
Of all the cards on the banlist, this is probably the one I'd be most excited to have removed, with the possible exception of library of alexandria. Between politicking to get a sweet double-tutor (either by offering favors or by simply stacking the cards so that the chooser is heavily motivated to pick the ones you want), cool graveyard interactions like LFTL and flashback and whatnot, being an instant so you can respond to stuff on the stack, the complexity of setting up smart piles...there's just a ton of cool things going on with this card. Saying it's "only used for combos" is so far off-base it's kind of shocking.
I don't love the position of the RC of "try it locally and see how it goes". If you're on these forums and test-unbanning cards, you're already probably way beyond what most EDH groups are doing. I don't think it's all that useful - I think we all recognize that gifts has the potential to be busted and the potential to be fun. So if you want to go into the "experiment" to prove either, you can easily do it. It's the ultimate confirmation bias, you just get to pick which result you want.
I don't think i'd even noticed that this was officially banned. And like you mention before, it definitely comes down to a confirmation bias, since if we take my playgroup as an example, we allow griselbrand, emrakul, karakas, painter, recurring nightmare, academy, and it's definitely not broken our meta yet. It probably doesn't mean that we should unban everything; i think it probably just means that our "gentle-persons agreement" at our group is very strong.
wait; now that i checked it up, why is intuition ok but gifts not? Is it because you can guarantee tutoring between 1-2 cards directly into your hand up to 2 cards in hand and 2 in the grave? or collusion in the game? I'm guessing that extra card makes a big difference, but I'm suspecting that it's not going to be problematic in metas where oppressive decks aren't already a thing.
I don't think i'd even noticed that this was officially banned. And like you mention before, it definitely comes down to a confirmation bias, since if we take my playgroup as an example, we allow griselbrand, emrakul, karakas, painter, recurring nightmare, academy, and it's definitely not broken our meta yet. It probably doesn't mean that we should unban everything; i think it probably just means that our "gentle-persons agreement" at our group is very strong.
wait; now that i checked it up, why is intuition ok but gifts not? Is it because you can guarantee tutoring between 1-2 cards directly into your hand up to 2 cards in hand and 2 in the grave? or collusion in the game? I'm guessing that extra card makes a big difference, but I'm suspecting that it's not going to be problematic in metas where oppressive decks aren't already a thing.
The argument for intuition without gifts is primarily that you can (1) double entomb, or (2) double tutor + double recursion (or some similar thing) to set up a combo. Of course you can use intuition to set up combos with a package like, say, sharuum + unburial rites + phyrexian metamorph (although that still requires some additional piece to care...there's probably better combos I'm not aware of).
I think also a major part of the equation, if we're being honest, is that intuition is a relatively underplayed card because it's hard to find and expensive. It sees only 10% of the play of demonic tutor. if gifts were unbanned, it's a lot more accessible and would probably see a pretty significant amount of play.
I don't think i'd even noticed that this was officially banned. And like you mention before, it definitely comes down to a confirmation bias, since if we take my playgroup as an example, we allow griselbrand, emrakul, karakas, painter, recurring nightmare, academy, and it's definitely not broken our meta yet. It probably doesn't mean that we should unban everything; i think it probably just means that our "gentle-persons agreement" at our group is very strong.
wait; now that i checked it up, why is intuition ok but gifts not? Is it because you can guarantee tutoring between 1-2 cards directly into your hand up to 2 cards in hand and 2 in the grave? or collusion in the game? I'm guessing that extra card makes a big difference, but I'm suspecting that it's not going to be problematic in metas where oppressive decks aren't already a thing.
The argument for intuition without gifts is primarily that you can (1) double entomb, or (2) double tutor + double recursion (or some similar thing) to set up a combo. Of course you can use intuition to set up combos with a package like, say, sharuum + unburial rites + phyrexian metamorph (although that still requires some additional piece to care...there's probably better combos I'm not aware of).
I think also a major part of the equation, if we're being honest, is that intuition is a relatively underplayed card because it's hard to find and expensive. It sees only 10% of the play of demonic tutor. if gifts were unbanned, it's a lot more accessible and would probably see a pretty significant amount of play.
...Isn't that the same argument for the moxen, library and all that being banned?
hahaha.. nah, i get ya. Have you played with it (gifts)? do you think it's ok to get unbanned? Isn't it one of those cards, along with TnN, hulk, worldgorger, that only enable highly broken interactions if they're built that way? In playgroups where it's going to be bad, it's gonna be bad; but for most groups, it's a quirky way to find craw wurm, polar kraken, leviathan and spined wurm, right?
I'd be interested in what the actual usage of an unbanned Gifts Ungiven would look like.
It's obviously a very dangerous card. But being dangerous is not enough, in a format where Hermit Druid is legal. The comparisons to things like Tooth and Nail aren't exactly accurate, as that would likely be banned if it was a 4 mana instant.
Suggestions that it is going to be tutoring for things like Spined Wurm are ridiculous, but how is it going to be played? If you just slot it into decks where it might be strong (Izzet spell decks, Graveyard shenanigans decks like Sharuum or Mimeoplasm), what happens? I mean, obviously, people can build it into an "I win" card if they want, but without making other changes to relevant good decks, do you have to actively try not to win when you resolve Gifts?
Also, while the political aspect of the card should be a cool wrinkle, it does have the possibility of causing Trade Secrets-like feel bads moments, where an ally just gives you what you want.
I suspect the problem with Gifts is that while things like Protean Hulk and Hermit Druid become ridiculous instant win machines when you build around them and are just fun value things when you don't, Gifts is something where you have to actively try not to win as a result of casting it. And if that's the case, it's probably better on the list, even if it would be fine at a significantly higher casting cost.
I don't buy that argument. Show me some instant-win piles using cards already in many decks, not tailored around the card. I think it requires a pretty decent build-around to be a win, and most combos are going to result in a decent number of avenues for interaction.
I know plenty of people playing 75%-ish decks who have creature-based 2 card combos that could win when/if they had T&N. I don't suspect the same ease of comboing is going to apply to gifts. It looks a lot closer to doomsday to me.
I also don't buy the trade secrets argument. At most it's a double entomb + double tutor. Which is obviously really powerful, but nobody is going to collude to give the player an immediate win. Will they collude to give them good value cards in exchange for hippos? Sure, seems ok. Will they give the board wipes and counterspells to stop incoming problems from another player? Sure, seems ok. Will they give them kiki + conscripts? Yeah...probably not so much. Doesn't really gain them anything. Sure, you could theoretically do a "if you give me my combo then I'll leave you alive, sac them, and then we can play 1v1" deal, but I don't see many casual tables politicking like that tbh. People just don't think that way in my experience, even if it's arguably the correct play in some cases. But that sort of collusion risk is built into tons of stuff in the format - the thing saving us all from a political hellscape is that very few, if any, people play this way.
I don't think collusion is a serious risk. The reason it was for trade secrets is that the colluder got a major incentive to do so, in the form of drawing their deck. Not so with gifts. So the comparison is specious.
wait; now that i checked it up, why is intuition ok but gifts not? Is it because you can guarantee tutoring between 1-2 cards directly into your hand up to 2 cards in hand and 2 in the grave? or collusion in the game? I'm guessing that extra card makes a big difference, but I'm suspecting that it's not going to be problematic in metas where oppressive decks aren't already a thing.
The difference between three cards (one to hand), and four cards (two to hand) is... significant.
I don't buy that argument. Show me some instant-win piles using cards already in many decks, not tailored around the card. I think it requires a pretty decent build-around to be a win, and most combos are going to result in a decent number of avenues for interaction.
My Muldrotha deck, and another players Riku list, basically win when we resolve Intuition as-is, and none of those choices were made with the idea of including Intuition.
The primary difference between that and Gifts Ungiven is that with Gifts, we can ignore most otherwise necessary setup. And thee opposing board state is less relivant.
There are several other local decks that Gifts would immediately become the best card in, and with only minor adjustments wins the game.
Bruna, Light of Alabaster is another one that has a tendency to win after resolving Gifts.
A local, far more casual / low powered player was using Bruna a while back. He did not even know what Gifts was. After I showed him the card, it took under a minute to decide it needed to remain banned.
My Muldrotha deck, and another players Riku list, basically win when we resolve Intuition as-is, and none of those choices were made with the idea of including Intuition.
The primary difference between that and Gifts Ungiven is that with Gifts, we can ignore most otherwise necessary setup. And thee opposing board state is less relivant.
I'd prefer actual cards for your examples instead of arguing from an assertion that it simply wins - I'm guessing you still need to cast some things and resolve some triggers, if nothing else. Which means more avenues for interaction and more mana required.
Plus it seems a little self-defeating to point out that intuition already does the same thing, given that intuition is legal and is likely to remain so. It just shows that, whatever examples you do have, clearly aren't sufficient to get the card banned anyway. But if your assertion is that it makes it easier, again, I want actual card names, not just assertions.
There are several other local decks that Gifts would immediately become the best card in, and with only minor adjustments wins the game.
Bruna, Light of Alabaster is another one that has a tendency to win after resolving Gifts.
A local, far more casual / low powered player was using Bruna a while back. He did not even know what Gifts was. After I showed him the card, it took under a minute to decide it needed to remain banned.
Bruna? That's your example? Ok.
For starters - if Bruna attacks and her trigger resolves with her alive, I'm already assuming that whoever got attacked is going to die, no gifts required. If you let bruna stick around without an answer up, shame on you, not gifts/intuition. I'm not a fan of wotc printing must-kill commanders either, but so it goes.
For a second thing, the difference between intuition and gifts is basically irrelevant at this point, they're both going to make it very easy to make bruna an if-not-invincible-at-least-very-durable killing machine that one-shots anyone she attacks, and as mentioned, intuition is not banned and is unlikely to become so. So if there's no difference between the two, you've got yourself a bad example.
For a third and final thing...I might be opening myself up to being wrong here, but I don't see anything that outright wins via bruna. Makes her hard to kill, highly evasive, and lethal, yes. Does that win immediately? No. Besides obviously needing to survive until her trigger resolves, she also needs to get in presumably 2 more attacks before she's actually won. I can't see anything aura-wise that's going to give her extra turns/attacks in which to do that, so I'm assuming the turn is being passed and her remaining opponents have a chance to deal with her or kill her controller. If I've missed anything, then my apologies, but my other points stand.
And finally - I don't see why the opinion of a "casual/low powered player" without any reasoning being described to back it up, from someone who was told about the card by someone who wants it banned, is supposed to be evidence of anything whatsoever.
I’m not sure why their opinion is any less evidentiary/relevant than yours.
The reasons why this is banned and intuition arent are literally in this thread posted by RC members themselves.
As for piling, it is as easy as it is for intiution... except you get up to two cards to hand. Basically anything intution can do Gifts can do, but twice as well and for one more mana... oh and with somethings that intuition can’t do.
Dirk has the right of it. Especially the collusion argument, as the politics that gifts can bring is a feature rather than a bug. It's healthy for the format and something positive that gifts would add, whereas trade secrets is wholly negative and degenerate.
Other than that, the one big difference between gifts and T&N is that gifts costs 4 and is an instant. You can fire it off much earlier, and it's easier to find safe windows early. This makes it generally more dangerous, but Dirk is right that it's harder to fire it off and then realize, as your searching, that you can grab an instant win combo. It's easier to build around than Doomsday though. The combos it sets up tend to involve cards that are good anyway, and there are fewer ways to attack a combo set up by gifts than one set up by Doomsday, as Doomsday itself sets up a couple of vulnerabilities for opponents to attack while gifts is entirely risk free. Basically, for gifts, you either counter gifts or deal with one of the combo pieces it finds (or one of the tutors). What you risk here is simply the card itself, or the combo getting answered. With Doomsday you have that, but you also become vulnerable to getting randomly blown out by something like Stroke of Genius or Blue Sun's Zenith, or even getting killed by damage depending on how much you've taken before losing half your life. Yes, these are corner cases, and properly played they will never happen, but they make the card more difficult to play, which is significant in that it leads to situations where a player has Doomsday but can't risk it, and it also means that it tends to only be played by more skilled players in higher skilled metas. The difficulty involved in playing Doomsday means that it pretty much only shows up where it should, in metas that are ok with Doomsday style combo, and is pretty much not considered in casual play. Gifts still requires a similar degree of deck building consideration, but it's easier to play and comparatively fool proof.
Intuition, meanwhile, has a couple combos, but it's less resilient (that extra card makes a difference, because even Sharuum Metamorph Exhume, which intuition fetches, gifts also fetches a FoW for protection, making it harder to disrupt). Otherwise, Gifts is also better at fetching value packages. Intuition just isn't good enough in the format to see much play. It's usually as a combo enabler, and typically in cEDH circles at that point. Being more generally and obviously good would make gifts see more play in casual circles leading to combo creep.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I’m not sure why their opinion is any less evidentiary/relevant than yours.
The reasons why this is banned and intuition arent are literally in this thread posted by RC members themselves.
As for piling, it is as easy as it is for intiution... except you get up to two cards to hand. Basically anything intution can do Gifts can do, but twice as well and for one more mana... oh and with somethings that intuition can’t do.
Someone having an opinion isn't worth a damn thing. It's the reasons, it's the evidence, it's the argument. If he wants to say "this guy said it should be banned because X" then I'll happily take his argument into consideration. But devoid of those things there's nothing to discuss.
I've scanned through the thread and don't see anything from RC members about intuition, and nothing from the RC (or anyone, for that matter) for years. The main argument I see seems to be "it sets up a combo eot with little interaction" which is certainly possible, but there are other cards that can do similar things - firemind's foresight, for example, can win the game in response to someone else winning the game, which is a neat little mana-intensive trick, T&N of course, protean hulk although it needs to die somehow...I mean, it's trivially easy to combo off with many black multi-tutor like diabolic revelation and the like. Now sure, those are slower and more mana-intensive, but if you want cheap and you're building your deck to take advantage of it, there's doomsday, which is not banned presumably because it requires a build-around to make it good, and is therefore the domain of tryhards. So if you want to prove gifts needs to stay banned, imo, you need to show that it's too likely to combo out in a not-built-around-it deck, and do it faster than other acceptable cards like T&N.
The card has been banned since '09. I think it's fair to say that the format was still finding its feet at that time. I suspect that, back in the day, the RC had less perspective on the larger meta and probably banned things a little more reactionarily - as evidenced by, for example, banning kokusho a year previously (a card that is, frankly, embarrassingly fair by today's standards) along with recurring nightmare - I don't think it takes a genius to guess that someone brought a recursion-heavy black deck focused around recurring kokopuff repeatedly, and it seemed too powerful, so they banhammered it. In reality, the format was broken in plenty of other ways too (limited resources, hilariously, was still unbanned, so clearly the format was still pretty sheltered), but kokopuff recursion was what happened to be brought to the RC table, so that was what looked problematic to them, at the time.
I suspect a similar thing happened for gifts. If you're looking to break it, you can definitely make it look pretty good. People brought powerful decks focused around gifts, it looked powerful against the relatively tame decks, so they banned it. And I think painter's servant is in the same camp - it looks OP with grindstone, so they banned it.
Time would eventually reveal that there were way, way too many powerful things to ban everything that CAN be used abusively, so they kind of modified the banlist to focus on things that were ruining lower-powered games from the inside, rather than try to stop the cEDH spikes, which is fair enough. But poor gifts has stayed on the banlist for nearly 10 years at this point. People point to how it CAN be used brokenly as a reason to leave it on, but loads of things can be used brokenly and it hasn't stopped them. necro is alive and well. ad nauseum. doomsday. omniscience. hermit. Tons of stuff. The "it can be broken" argument is not relevant anymore, what's relevant isn't CAN it, but WILL it, and that's damn near impossible to know because it's been banned for so long. Some people will absolutely use it for evil. Some people will absolutely use it for good. But imo, for the same reason we've allowed hermit druid to persist, we've gotta allow gifts.
Now then.
I just said I wanted specific cards. I play intuition a fair bit, but mostly as an enabler for loam or whatever, so I don't know what intuition piles you're talking about. Give me specific cards, which show how gifts is worse than intuition and that it'll become a problem even in decks not built to exploit it. Otherwise we're still just throwing assertions around.
Intuition, meanwhile, has a couple combos, but it's less resilient (that extra card makes a difference, because even Sharuum Metamorph Exhume, which intuition fetches, gifts also fetches a FoW for protection, making it harder to disrupt). Otherwise, Gifts is also better at fetching value packages. Intuition just isn't good enough in the format to see much play. It's usually as a combo enabler, and typically in cEDH circles at that point. Being more generally and obviously good would make gifts see more play in casual circles leading to combo creep.
sharuum metamorph exhume doesn't work with intuition. You need unburial rites or something (and to be fair, you still need something to care about the loop you've created). Otherwise they give you metamorph and you can't combo without recurring sharuum somehow.
With gifts you could give them reanimate + exhume + sharuum + metamorph, but then you give them sharuum + metamorph and they've gotta spend 9 more mana before they get to combo. Which, hey, is tooth and nail mana.
Personally I love intuition. I always use it fairly and never to set up combos. It's just a cool card that sets up fun stuff, imo.
The fact that -you- use Intuition fairly is pretty meaningless.
Quick examples with Kess
Intuition for:
Mystical tutor
Doomsday
Gush
If Mystical, cast it during upkeep to put a cantrip on the top of the deck, use kess to cast doomsday, break pile with cantrip win.
If Gush, cast doomsday with Kess, break pile with Gush, win.
If doomsday, cast mystical turor with kess during upkeep for a cantrip, cast doomsday, break pile with cantrip, win.
With Kess and a cantrip in hand you can also do
Tainted Consultation/Pact
Unearth
Laboratory Maniac.
If tainted, exile your deck, unearth labman with kess, cast cantrip, win.
If unearth, unearth labman, cast tainted from grave, cantrip, win.
If labman, cast labman, cast tainted from grave, cast cantrip, win.
In general you can do X card you need with Yawgwin, Regrowth, Noxious Revival, Past in Flames, ect piles to guarantee your card, and depending on what that card is, win.
With Gifts you can do any pile and look up a Pact, FoW, Swan Song or any other interaction and now the combo is harder to disrupt or easier to cast no matter what pile you make.
Anyways, on wether or not it should be banned, most piles it makes can already be made with intuition, so banning it for combo seems silly and like hulk, it doesn’t combo by accident.
If it’s because it creates a big resource inbalance for four mana at instant speed, on the other hand, it should probably stay banned. For most graveyard decks the piles themselves won’t matter much and tutoring for that many cards will be back breaking.
I only bring up my use of intuition because onering said that it was rarely used outside of combo. While my own use of the card doesn't disprove "rarely", of course, I think it's also pretty false that it's not a good card. It's a really good card, even with little support, and I've consistently made good use out of it myself.
Of course the piles you outline are way too tryhardy to happen on accident, but you do acknowledge that so fair enough. I think the RC would be more worried about piles that would win without as much buildaround, but having never played a format where the card was legal (except, I guess, MMA limited) I have no idea how likely that is.
Intuition does already get 3 cards for 3 mana for a grave-based blue deck, which again, afaik is not in consideration for banning, so I kind of doubt 4 for 4 is the breaking point. It's definitely a strong card, no one would argue otherwise, but I'd want to see situations in non-cEDH contexts where it's clearly more problematic than intuition to agree that it's bannable.
Found it, turns out it was an SCG article and not a post here, whoops.
Quote from = Toby aka Papa_Funk »
Hien Nguyen asks, "I would like the Rules Committee to explicitly state their criteria for banning cards; and for the RC to be consistent with bannings. If you want it phrased as a question: Why are some cards banned but other similar cards aren't? (such Gifts Ungiven is banned, but Intuition isn't)."
Card banning is binary (it's banned or it isn't), but cards themselves aren't so cooperative. They fall on a continuum that stretches from completely safe to never ever. At some point along that continuum, there's a ban threshold. No matter where you set that, there will always be cards that fall just on one side or the other, and cards that may be superficially similar have enough differences to affect their placement. So while it might appear that we ban a card while endorsing another, that's just the binary overlay.
I'm always interested by the choice of "inconsistent" as an epithet. There isn't a science or a formal logic to be inconsistent with. (If one day we ban a card that has an identical-except-in-name alternative, then objection withdrawn.)
In the case of Gifts and Intuition, I'll note that the highlander nature of Commander makes Intuition weaker than it is in normal Magic play (where the most common scenario is to get three of the same card), while that same nature renders Gifts' drawback irrelevant. I believe Gifts is stronger in Commander, and they end up on different sides of the line.
Anyways, yeah, intution is also a 3 card tutor, but a) it's always a three card tutor, and b) Gifts puts two cards in your hand vs just one, which is automatically a lot stronger. If it's just combos that they're worried about then Gifts could easily come off, but if it's just the CA then nothing has changed in it's texts to change it.
Personally I don't think it's a big deal, reanimator decks don't even have that many good cards to set up their things to begin with, and combo players gonna combo. I think it just depends on how the RC is looking at it.
Found it, turns out it was an SCG article and not a post here, whoops.
[Quote = Toby aka Papa_Funk]
Hien Nguyen asks, "I would like the Rules Committee to explicitly state their criteria for banning cards; and for the RC to be consistent with bannings. If you want it phrased as a question: Why are some cards banned but other similar cards aren't? (such Gifts Ungiven is banned, but Intuition isn't)."
Card banning is binary (it's banned or it isn't), but cards themselves aren't so cooperative. They fall on a continuum that stretches from completely safe to never ever. At some point along that continuum, there's a ban threshold. No matter where you set that, there will always be cards that fall just on one side or the other, and cards that may be superficially similar have enough differences to affect their placement. So while it might appear that we ban a card while endorsing another, that's just the binary overlay.
I'm always interested by the choice of "inconsistent" as an epithet. There isn't a science or a formal logic to be inconsistent with. (If one day we ban a card that has an identical-except-in-name alternative, then objection withdrawn.)
In the case of Gifts and Intuition, I'll note that the highlander nature of Commander makes Intuition weaker than it is in normal Magic play (where the most common scenario is to get three of the same card), while that same nature renders Gifts' drawback irrelevant. I believe Gifts is stronger in Commander, and they end up on different sides of the line.
I think this was actually quoted in another thread that specifically asked why gifts was banned but not Intuition. I too thought it was this thread at first.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I think we gotta look at the philosophy of the banlist before we go on about whether or not something should be banned/unbanned.
So in the words of sheldon in some SCG article i found: The banned list for Commander is designed not to balance competitive play but to help shape in the minds of its fans the vision held by its founders and Rules Committee. That vision is to create variable interactive and epic multiplayer games where memories are made to foster the social nature of the format and to underscore that competition is not the format's primary goal. It sets out to define the parameters of official Commander while recognizing that local groups may wish to modify things to suit their own needs.
So does gifts ungiven lead to, most of the time, unmemorable and non-epic multiplayer games? no idea. I can imagine a game where someone fishes up like 4 leviathans, someone else splits them into 2 piles, then ula's temple one into play, reanimates the other 2, then beats for the win, i suppose. But this also goes the other way. It's a bit like brainstorm; the card itself can be very good, but it's rarely the actual memorable piece that makes you win.
Creates Undesirable Games / Game Situations.
I don't think it necessarily does. It all depends on whether or not the player goes all out and tutors for all their 2-card combo wincons or silver bullet answers or just some dumb beaters. It all depends on what cards are picked, and/or possible collusion? But no one would be silly enough to collude to make the gifts player win outright, right?
Warps the Format Strategically.
It can; i suppose many players would immediately build decks around gifts, making multiple insta-win piles available, and thereby warping the format. But it wouldn't necessarily warp the entire format, just the decks that would want to abuse gifts as much as possible. But if i cast a gifts - is anyone likely to use their perplexing chimera on it? How likely are you to shoot off a force of will to counter it?
Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly.
Nope. Or i suppose, if we tutor for 2 rocks, gaea's cradle and something something? but no. i don't think so.
Interacts Badly with the Structure of Commander
Nope. Unless if you consider tutors to be subverting the highlander nature of EDH.
Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry.
Nope. Don't think so either.
I'm not sure though to be honest. I'm not the greatest pilot nor deck builder ever, so i can't really say how busted it's going to be. But considering that i've used doomsday and even demonic consultation as enablers to win, I can imagine its potential. But then again, its not power that we should be concerned with; but whether or not it's going to warp the format. we didn't play in flash-hulk-only meta the moment it got unbanned, and it's not like that's warping the format either. when primeval titan was just stolen, reanimated, and jostled about by all the players in the game, that's what i'd consider format-warping.
Can we finally get gifts off the damn banlist? It never should have been on there in the first place.
This card is almost better than gifts because you don't need to do any setup or run any extra cards. It's just an instant search for your game winning creature combo for one more mana.
Gifts does way more than what shared summons does though and cheaper as well. I dont't know if needs to be on the banlist but gifts is IMO better than shared summons by a large margin.
Can we finally get gifts off the damn banlist? It never should have been on there in the first place.
This card is almost better than gifts because you don't need to do any setup or run any extra cards. It's just an instant search for your game winning creature combo for one more mana.
So your argument to unban Gifts Ungiven is to compare it to a new card that is actually just bad?
Gifts searches for twice the number of cards, without card type restrictions, and for less mana.
I would play Gifts in every blue deck.
I will never use Shared Summons
Can we finally get gifts off the damn banlist? It never should have been on there in the first place.
This card is almost better than gifts because you don't need to do any setup or run any extra cards. It's just an instant search for your game winning creature combo for one more mana.
So your argument to unban Gifts Ungiven is to compare it to a new card that is actually just bad?
Gifts searches for twice the number of cards, without card type restrictions, and for less mana.
I would play Gifts in every blue deck.
I will never use Shared Summons
The most usual search pattern for gifts ungiven is to search for two cards you actually want, and two cards that recur the two cards you actually want, because your opponent will never give you the cards you actually want. So gifts ends up being one mana cheaper, but you have to spend time getting back the cards you actually want, with effects like academy ruins and noxious revival.
Shared summons fetches up your game winning combo outright, your opponents have no say in the matter, and you get to do it at instant speed at the end of the last opponent's turn before you win, with no additional mana/life spent recurring them. There are quite a number of two card wins you can search up here.
To say you would never play shared summons is very poor card evaluation. The card is insanely powerful.
but you have to spend time getting back the cards you actually want
since gifts is an instant you can also do that at opponents eot and in both cases you need co actually cast cards to pull combos of in shared summons you need to cast the creatures and with gifts the cards you got.
Depending on what you searched for yes you need to play cards you got with gifts to get back the other ones but that does depend on the piles.
Gifts has the benefit of not just looking for creature based combos but any kind of combos / value plays whereas summons needs to be creature based.
Because of that you can do generally more with gifts than summons.
Now is shared summons a bad card? No.
Is it better than Gifts, or at the same level? No
The more I have noodled on it the less I give a crap about gifts. It's a very powerful card that would see a lot of play but it's no worse than all the other nonsense we have to deal with now.
We've gone around and around and gifts cannot win the game any more efficiently than anything else in the same class (tooth and nail, for example) and fundamentally is much weaker than intuition at enabling CEDH effects - because of the 3 restriction, intuition is much better at forcing a single effect in competitive environments (intuition for spellseeker, vampiric tutor and mystical tutor for example ensures a cyclonic rift for 6 total investment (vs. 8 for say, unburial rites + spellseeker).
These days there's basically nothing gifts can do better than the other busted tutors in the format except:
1) enable fair reanimator strategies specifically in Esper or Mimeoplasm type stuff (whatever)
2) draw cards
The two things it does uniquely are both fun, so I say let her rip
There're so many busted ass draw spells in the format, that drawing cards is really not such a big deal. Dig and Treasure cruise, necropotence, etc. etc.
Yeah I think we are getting many more blue generals that care about the graveyard and Gifts has some interesting design space. Plus, with Intuition being on the reserve list, it would be nice to see that effect at a price that is more reasonable to players.
The most usual search pattern for gifts ungiven is to search for two cards you actually want, and two cards that recur the two cards you actually want, because your opponent will never give you the cards you actually want. So gifts ends up being one mana cheaper, but you have to spend time getting back the cards you actually want, with effects like academy ruins and noxious revival.
Did you know Entomb is a good card? Gifts Ungiven finds four cards, unrestricted by card type. For four mana.
Sometimes you will find two necessary cards, and two ways of recurring them. In my experience, that is not the norm. Even when it does happen, it is still far more flexible, and almost always cheaper, than finding an equivalent with Shared Summons.
For example, Gifts for Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Triskelion, Reanimate, & Animate Dead is significantly cheaper than Summons for the creatures alone.
The closest comparable function of Summons to finding Pact of Negation, Force of Will, Snapcaster Mage, Mission Briefing costs an additional 3 CMC, and 3 colored mana, with a requirement of at least two colors. It is incapable of matching many other reactive plays.
Shared Summons will see plenty of play in low power, casual groups. It is simply too expensive to see real play in optimized lists (competitive or not), and too restrictive to be even remotely comparable to Gifts Ungivin.
I think the place to look for whether gifts is really a problem is in the upper-mid end of the power spectrum of EDH decks, 75% decks or whatever you want to call them.
If Protean Hulk and Tooth and Nail haven't ruined those metas I'm not sure Gifts would. It feels like most gifts piles that will win out of hand are things you have to be really designing for.
The most usual search pattern for gifts ungiven is to search for two cards you actually want, and two cards that recur the two cards you actually want, because your opponent will never give you the cards you actually want. So gifts ends up being one mana cheaper, but you have to spend time getting back the cards you actually want, with effects like academy ruins and noxious revival.
Did you know Entomb is a good card? Gifts Ungiven finds four cards, unrestricted by card type. For four mana.
Sometimes you will find two necessary cards, and two ways of recurring them. In my experience, that is not the norm. Even when it does happen, it is still far more flexible, and almost always cheaper, than finding an equivalent with Shared Summons.
For example, Gifts for Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Triskelion, Reanimate, & Animate Dead is significantly cheaper than Summons for the creatures alone.
The closest comparable function of Summons to finding Pact of Negation, Force of Will, Snapcaster Mage, Mission Briefing costs an additional 3 CMC, and 3 colored mana, with a requirement of at least two colors. It is incapable of matching many other reactive plays.
Shared Summons will see plenty of play in low power, casual groups. It is simply too expensive to see real play in optimized lists (competitive or not), and too restrictive to be even remotely comparable to Gifts Ungivin.
Your example is faulty, because no one is giving you your reanimation spells in that gifts pile. With punisher cards you must always assume your opponent will give you the worst option given the game state at that point. So it is almost exactly the same as fetching mikaeus and triskelion directly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I don't think i'd even noticed that this was officially banned. And like you mention before, it definitely comes down to a confirmation bias, since if we take my playgroup as an example, we allow griselbrand, emrakul, karakas, painter, recurring nightmare, academy, and it's definitely not broken our meta yet. It probably doesn't mean that we should unban everything; i think it probably just means that our "gentle-persons agreement" at our group is very strong.
wait; now that i checked it up, why is intuition ok but gifts not? Is it because you can guarantee tutoring between 1-2 cards directly into your hand up to 2 cards in hand and 2 in the grave? or collusion in the game? I'm guessing that extra card makes a big difference, but I'm suspecting that it's not going to be problematic in metas where oppressive decks aren't already a thing.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I think also a major part of the equation, if we're being honest, is that intuition is a relatively underplayed card because it's hard to find and expensive. It sees only 10% of the play of demonic tutor. if gifts were unbanned, it's a lot more accessible and would probably see a pretty significant amount of play.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
...Isn't that the same argument for the moxen, library and all that being banned?
hahaha.. nah, i get ya. Have you played with it (gifts)? do you think it's ok to get unbanned? Isn't it one of those cards, along with TnN, hulk, worldgorger, that only enable highly broken interactions if they're built that way? In playgroups where it's going to be bad, it's gonna be bad; but for most groups, it's a quirky way to find craw wurm, polar kraken, leviathan and spined wurm, right?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
It's obviously a very dangerous card. But being dangerous is not enough, in a format where Hermit Druid is legal. The comparisons to things like Tooth and Nail aren't exactly accurate, as that would likely be banned if it was a 4 mana instant.
Suggestions that it is going to be tutoring for things like Spined Wurm are ridiculous, but how is it going to be played? If you just slot it into decks where it might be strong (Izzet spell decks, Graveyard shenanigans decks like Sharuum or Mimeoplasm), what happens? I mean, obviously, people can build it into an "I win" card if they want, but without making other changes to relevant good decks, do you have to actively try not to win when you resolve Gifts?
Also, while the political aspect of the card should be a cool wrinkle, it does have the possibility of causing Trade Secrets-like feel bads moments, where an ally just gives you what you want.
I suspect the problem with Gifts is that while things like Protean Hulk and Hermit Druid become ridiculous instant win machines when you build around them and are just fun value things when you don't, Gifts is something where you have to actively try not to win as a result of casting it. And if that's the case, it's probably better on the list, even if it would be fine at a significantly higher casting cost.
I know plenty of people playing 75%-ish decks who have creature-based 2 card combos that could win when/if they had T&N. I don't suspect the same ease of comboing is going to apply to gifts. It looks a lot closer to doomsday to me.
I also don't buy the trade secrets argument. At most it's a double entomb + double tutor. Which is obviously really powerful, but nobody is going to collude to give the player an immediate win. Will they collude to give them good value cards in exchange for hippos? Sure, seems ok. Will they give the board wipes and counterspells to stop incoming problems from another player? Sure, seems ok. Will they give them kiki + conscripts? Yeah...probably not so much. Doesn't really gain them anything. Sure, you could theoretically do a "if you give me my combo then I'll leave you alive, sac them, and then we can play 1v1" deal, but I don't see many casual tables politicking like that tbh. People just don't think that way in my experience, even if it's arguably the correct play in some cases. But that sort of collusion risk is built into tons of stuff in the format - the thing saving us all from a political hellscape is that very few, if any, people play this way.
I don't think collusion is a serious risk. The reason it was for trade secrets is that the colluder got a major incentive to do so, in the form of drawing their deck. Not so with gifts. So the comparison is specious.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
The difference between three cards (one to hand), and four cards (two to hand) is... significant.
My Muldrotha deck, and another players Riku list, basically win when we resolve Intuition as-is, and none of those choices were made with the idea of including Intuition.
The primary difference between that and Gifts Ungiven is that with Gifts, we can ignore most otherwise necessary setup. And thee opposing board state is less relivant.
There are several other local decks that Gifts would immediately become the best card in, and with only minor adjustments wins the game.
Bruna, Light of Alabaster is another one that has a tendency to win after resolving Gifts.
A local, far more casual / low powered player was using Bruna a while back. He did not even know what Gifts was. After I showed him the card, it took under a minute to decide it needed to remain banned.
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
Plus it seems a little self-defeating to point out that intuition already does the same thing, given that intuition is legal and is likely to remain so. It just shows that, whatever examples you do have, clearly aren't sufficient to get the card banned anyway. But if your assertion is that it makes it easier, again, I want actual card names, not just assertions.
Bruna? That's your example? Ok.
For starters - if Bruna attacks and her trigger resolves with her alive, I'm already assuming that whoever got attacked is going to die, no gifts required. If you let bruna stick around without an answer up, shame on you, not gifts/intuition. I'm not a fan of wotc printing must-kill commanders either, but so it goes.
For a second thing, the difference between intuition and gifts is basically irrelevant at this point, they're both going to make it very easy to make bruna an if-not-invincible-at-least-very-durable killing machine that one-shots anyone she attacks, and as mentioned, intuition is not banned and is unlikely to become so. So if there's no difference between the two, you've got yourself a bad example.
For a third and final thing...I might be opening myself up to being wrong here, but I don't see anything that outright wins via bruna. Makes her hard to kill, highly evasive, and lethal, yes. Does that win immediately? No. Besides obviously needing to survive until her trigger resolves, she also needs to get in presumably 2 more attacks before she's actually won. I can't see anything aura-wise that's going to give her extra turns/attacks in which to do that, so I'm assuming the turn is being passed and her remaining opponents have a chance to deal with her or kill her controller. If I've missed anything, then my apologies, but my other points stand.
And finally - I don't see why the opinion of a "casual/low powered player" without any reasoning being described to back it up, from someone who was told about the card by someone who wants it banned, is supposed to be evidence of anything whatsoever.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
The reasons why this is banned and intuition arent are literally in this thread posted by RC members themselves.
As for piling, it is as easy as it is for intiution... except you get up to two cards to hand. Basically anything intution can do Gifts can do, but twice as well and for one more mana... oh and with somethings that intuition can’t do.
Other than that, the one big difference between gifts and T&N is that gifts costs 4 and is an instant. You can fire it off much earlier, and it's easier to find safe windows early. This makes it generally more dangerous, but Dirk is right that it's harder to fire it off and then realize, as your searching, that you can grab an instant win combo. It's easier to build around than Doomsday though. The combos it sets up tend to involve cards that are good anyway, and there are fewer ways to attack a combo set up by gifts than one set up by Doomsday, as Doomsday itself sets up a couple of vulnerabilities for opponents to attack while gifts is entirely risk free. Basically, for gifts, you either counter gifts or deal with one of the combo pieces it finds (or one of the tutors). What you risk here is simply the card itself, or the combo getting answered. With Doomsday you have that, but you also become vulnerable to getting randomly blown out by something like Stroke of Genius or Blue Sun's Zenith, or even getting killed by damage depending on how much you've taken before losing half your life. Yes, these are corner cases, and properly played they will never happen, but they make the card more difficult to play, which is significant in that it leads to situations where a player has Doomsday but can't risk it, and it also means that it tends to only be played by more skilled players in higher skilled metas. The difficulty involved in playing Doomsday means that it pretty much only shows up where it should, in metas that are ok with Doomsday style combo, and is pretty much not considered in casual play. Gifts still requires a similar degree of deck building consideration, but it's easier to play and comparatively fool proof.
Intuition, meanwhile, has a couple combos, but it's less resilient (that extra card makes a difference, because even Sharuum Metamorph Exhume, which intuition fetches, gifts also fetches a FoW for protection, making it harder to disrupt). Otherwise, Gifts is also better at fetching value packages. Intuition just isn't good enough in the format to see much play. It's usually as a combo enabler, and typically in cEDH circles at that point. Being more generally and obviously good would make gifts see more play in casual circles leading to combo creep.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I've scanned through the thread and don't see anything from RC members about intuition, and nothing from the RC (or anyone, for that matter) for years. The main argument I see seems to be "it sets up a combo eot with little interaction" which is certainly possible, but there are other cards that can do similar things - firemind's foresight, for example, can win the game in response to someone else winning the game, which is a neat little mana-intensive trick, T&N of course, protean hulk although it needs to die somehow...I mean, it's trivially easy to combo off with many black multi-tutor like diabolic revelation and the like. Now sure, those are slower and more mana-intensive, but if you want cheap and you're building your deck to take advantage of it, there's doomsday, which is not banned presumably because it requires a build-around to make it good, and is therefore the domain of tryhards. So if you want to prove gifts needs to stay banned, imo, you need to show that it's too likely to combo out in a not-built-around-it deck, and do it faster than other acceptable cards like T&N.
The card has been banned since '09. I think it's fair to say that the format was still finding its feet at that time. I suspect that, back in the day, the RC had less perspective on the larger meta and probably banned things a little more reactionarily - as evidenced by, for example, banning kokusho a year previously (a card that is, frankly, embarrassingly fair by today's standards) along with recurring nightmare - I don't think it takes a genius to guess that someone brought a recursion-heavy black deck focused around recurring kokopuff repeatedly, and it seemed too powerful, so they banhammered it. In reality, the format was broken in plenty of other ways too (limited resources, hilariously, was still unbanned, so clearly the format was still pretty sheltered), but kokopuff recursion was what happened to be brought to the RC table, so that was what looked problematic to them, at the time.
I suspect a similar thing happened for gifts. If you're looking to break it, you can definitely make it look pretty good. People brought powerful decks focused around gifts, it looked powerful against the relatively tame decks, so they banned it. And I think painter's servant is in the same camp - it looks OP with grindstone, so they banned it.
Time would eventually reveal that there were way, way too many powerful things to ban everything that CAN be used abusively, so they kind of modified the banlist to focus on things that were ruining lower-powered games from the inside, rather than try to stop the cEDH spikes, which is fair enough. But poor gifts has stayed on the banlist for nearly 10 years at this point. People point to how it CAN be used brokenly as a reason to leave it on, but loads of things can be used brokenly and it hasn't stopped them. necro is alive and well. ad nauseum. doomsday. omniscience. hermit. Tons of stuff. The "it can be broken" argument is not relevant anymore, what's relevant isn't CAN it, but WILL it, and that's damn near impossible to know because it's been banned for so long. Some people will absolutely use it for evil. Some people will absolutely use it for good. But imo, for the same reason we've allowed hermit druid to persist, we've gotta allow gifts.
Now then.
I just said I wanted specific cards. I play intuition a fair bit, but mostly as an enabler for loam or whatever, so I don't know what intuition piles you're talking about. Give me specific cards, which show how gifts is worse than intuition and that it'll become a problem even in decks not built to exploit it. Otherwise we're still just throwing assertions around.
sharuum metamorph exhume doesn't work with intuition. You need unburial rites or something (and to be fair, you still need something to care about the loop you've created). Otherwise they give you metamorph and you can't combo without recurring sharuum somehow.
With gifts you could give them reanimate + exhume + sharuum + metamorph, but then you give them sharuum + metamorph and they've gotta spend 9 more mana before they get to combo. Which, hey, is tooth and nail mana.
Personally I love intuition. I always use it fairly and never to set up combos. It's just a cool card that sets up fun stuff, imo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Quick examples with Kess
Intuition for:
Mystical tutor
Doomsday
Gush
If Mystical, cast it during upkeep to put a cantrip on the top of the deck, use kess to cast doomsday, break pile with cantrip win.
If Gush, cast doomsday with Kess, break pile with Gush, win.
If doomsday, cast mystical turor with kess during upkeep for a cantrip, cast doomsday, break pile with cantrip, win.
With Kess and a cantrip in hand you can also do
Tainted Consultation/Pact
Unearth
Laboratory Maniac.
If tainted, exile your deck, unearth labman with kess, cast cantrip, win.
If unearth, unearth labman, cast tainted from grave, cantrip, win.
If labman, cast labman, cast tainted from grave, cast cantrip, win.
In general you can do X card you need with Yawgwin, Regrowth, Noxious Revival, Past in Flames, ect piles to guarantee your card, and depending on what that card is, win.
With Gifts you can do any pile and look up a Pact, FoW, Swan Song or any other interaction and now the combo is harder to disrupt or easier to cast no matter what pile you make.
Anyways, on wether or not it should be banned, most piles it makes can already be made with intuition, so banning it for combo seems silly and like hulk, it doesn’t combo by accident.
If it’s because it creates a big resource inbalance for four mana at instant speed, on the other hand, it should probably stay banned. For most graveyard decks the piles themselves won’t matter much and tutoring for that many cards will be back breaking.
Of course the piles you outline are way too tryhardy to happen on accident, but you do acknowledge that so fair enough. I think the RC would be more worried about piles that would win without as much buildaround, but having never played a format where the card was legal (except, I guess, MMA limited) I have no idea how likely that is.
Intuition does already get 3 cards for 3 mana for a grave-based blue deck, which again, afaik is not in consideration for banning, so I kind of doubt 4 for 4 is the breaking point. It's definitely a strong card, no one would argue otherwise, but I'd want to see situations in non-cEDH contexts where it's clearly more problematic than intuition to agree that it's bannable.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
And link: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36937_Ask-The-Commander-Rules-Committee-Other-Than-Me.html
Anyways, yeah, intution is also a 3 card tutor, but a) it's always a three card tutor, and b) Gifts puts two cards in your hand vs just one, which is automatically a lot stronger. If it's just combos that they're worried about then Gifts could easily come off, but if it's just the CA then nothing has changed in it's texts to change it.
Personally I don't think it's a big deal, reanimator decks don't even have that many good cards to set up their things to begin with, and combo players gonna combo. I think it just depends on how the RC is looking at it.
I think this was actually quoted in another thread that specifically asked why gifts was banned but not Intuition. I too thought it was this thread at first.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
So in the words of sheldon in some SCG article i found:
The banned list for Commander is designed not to balance competitive play but to help shape in the minds of its fans the vision held by its founders and Rules Committee. That vision is to create variable interactive and epic multiplayer games where memories are made to foster the social nature of the format and to underscore that competition is not the format's primary goal. It sets out to define the parameters of official Commander while recognizing that local groups may wish to modify things to suit their own needs.
So does gifts ungiven lead to, most of the time, unmemorable and non-epic multiplayer games? no idea. I can imagine a game where someone fishes up like 4 leviathans, someone else splits them into 2 piles, then ula's temple one into play, reanimates the other 2, then beats for the win, i suppose. But this also goes the other way. It's a bit like brainstorm; the card itself can be very good, but it's rarely the actual memorable piece that makes you win.
Creates Undesirable Games / Game Situations.
I don't think it necessarily does. It all depends on whether or not the player goes all out and tutors for all their 2-card combo wincons or silver bullet answers or just some dumb beaters. It all depends on what cards are picked, and/or possible collusion? But no one would be silly enough to collude to make the gifts player win outright, right?
Warps the Format Strategically.
It can; i suppose many players would immediately build decks around gifts, making multiple insta-win piles available, and thereby warping the format. But it wouldn't necessarily warp the entire format, just the decks that would want to abuse gifts as much as possible. But if i cast a gifts - is anyone likely to use their perplexing chimera on it? How likely are you to shoot off a force of will to counter it?
Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly.
Nope. Or i suppose, if we tutor for 2 rocks, gaea's cradle and something something? but no. i don't think so.
Interacts Badly with the Structure of Commander
Nope. Unless if you consider tutors to be subverting the highlander nature of EDH.
Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry.
Nope. Don't think so either.
I'm not sure though to be honest. I'm not the greatest pilot nor deck builder ever, so i can't really say how busted it's going to be. But considering that i've used doomsday and even demonic consultation as enablers to win, I can imagine its potential. But then again, its not power that we should be concerned with; but whether or not it's going to warp the format. we didn't play in flash-hulk-only meta the moment it got unbanned, and it's not like that's warping the format either. when primeval titan was just stolen, reanimated, and jostled about by all the players in the game, that's what i'd consider format-warping.
Thoughts?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Can we finally get gifts off the damn banlist? It never should have been on there in the first place.
This card is almost better than gifts because you don't need to do any setup or run any extra cards. It's just an instant search for your game winning creature combo for one more mana.
So your argument to unban Gifts Ungiven is to compare it to a new card that is actually just bad?
Gifts searches for twice the number of cards, without card type restrictions, and for less mana.
I would play Gifts in every blue deck.
I will never use Shared Summons
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
The most usual search pattern for gifts ungiven is to search for two cards you actually want, and two cards that recur the two cards you actually want, because your opponent will never give you the cards you actually want. So gifts ends up being one mana cheaper, but you have to spend time getting back the cards you actually want, with effects like academy ruins and noxious revival.
Shared summons fetches up your game winning combo outright, your opponents have no say in the matter, and you get to do it at instant speed at the end of the last opponent's turn before you win, with no additional mana/life spent recurring them. There are quite a number of two card wins you can search up here.
To say you would never play shared summons is very poor card evaluation. The card is insanely powerful.
Depending on what you searched for yes you need to play cards you got with gifts to get back the other ones but that does depend on the piles.
Gifts has the benefit of not just looking for creature based combos but any kind of combos / value plays whereas summons needs to be creature based.
Because of that you can do generally more with gifts than summons.
Now is shared summons a bad card? No.
Is it better than Gifts, or at the same level? No
We've gone around and around and gifts cannot win the game any more efficiently than anything else in the same class (tooth and nail, for example) and fundamentally is much weaker than intuition at enabling CEDH effects - because of the 3 restriction, intuition is much better at forcing a single effect in competitive environments (intuition for spellseeker, vampiric tutor and mystical tutor for example ensures a cyclonic rift for 6 total investment (vs. 8 for say, unburial rites + spellseeker).
These days there's basically nothing gifts can do better than the other busted tutors in the format except:
1) enable fair reanimator strategies specifically in Esper or Mimeoplasm type stuff (whatever)
2) draw cards
The two things it does uniquely are both fun, so I say let her rip
There're so many busted ass draw spells in the format, that drawing cards is really not such a big deal. Dig and Treasure cruise, necropotence, etc. etc.
Gifts being banned made more sense with the EDH card quality of 5-6 years ago. These days you can just play expropriate or thousand-year storm or paradox engine and win with modest setup. If people wanna gifts for eternal witness, mystic retrieval, expropriate and noxious revival I seriously could not care less.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Did you know Entomb is a good card? Gifts Ungiven finds four cards, unrestricted by card type. For four mana.
Sometimes you will find two necessary cards, and two ways of recurring them. In my experience, that is not the norm. Even when it does happen, it is still far more flexible, and almost always cheaper, than finding an equivalent with Shared Summons.
For example, Gifts for Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Triskelion, Reanimate, & Animate Dead is significantly cheaper than Summons for the creatures alone.
The closest comparable function of Summons to finding Pact of Negation, Force of Will, Snapcaster Mage, Mission Briefing costs an additional 3 CMC, and 3 colored mana, with a requirement of at least two colors. It is incapable of matching many other reactive plays.
Shared Summons will see plenty of play in low power, casual groups. It is simply too expensive to see real play in optimized lists (competitive or not), and too restrictive to be even remotely comparable to Gifts Ungivin.
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
If Protean Hulk and Tooth and Nail haven't ruined those metas I'm not sure Gifts would. It feels like most gifts piles that will win out of hand are things you have to be really designing for.
In lower powered metas I think gifts is hot garbage. If people wanna gifts for whispersilk cloak, swiftfoot boots, expedition map and strata scythe or whatever they are welcome to
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Your example is faulty, because no one is giving you your reanimation spells in that gifts pile. With punisher cards you must always assume your opponent will give you the worst option given the game state at that point. So it is almost exactly the same as fetching mikaeus and triskelion directly.