I still find it unlikely, if only because due to the templating of the card it is more difficult to interact with. But boy would I be a happy cryo.
True.
But I want to remind today's universe (after it was banned) we have a whole truck load of brand new removal and graveyard hate and other reanimate spells today. Take lay bare the heart and scarab feast and watchers of the dead from amonkhet for example.
And also a strategy is to focus on the creature that comes back not the enchantment.
I still find it unlikely, if only because due to the templating of the card it is more difficult to interact with. But boy would I be a happy cryo.
True.
But I want to remind today's universe (after it was banned) we have a whole truck load of brand new removal and graveyard hate and other reanimate spells today. Take lay bare the heart and scarab feast and watchers of the dead from amonkhet for example.
And also a strategy is to focus on the creature that comes back not the enchantment.
No, the strategy is really to focus on nightmare, because it is so good at reanimating many creatures over the course of the game, repeatedly, letting you either continuously grind out the best two or to use your grave as a toolbox recurring whatever is needed for the situation.
That said, mass grave hate, discard, and even just countering nightmare can handle it. When it was first banned, there weren't as many effects that let you just get as repetitive as nightmare. Now there are. Its probably the most likely candidate, along with painter's servant.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It's a card that I always thought of being unbannable, but I'd say wait out how Protean Hulk affects the game for the next, oh, 6 months or so first. GY strategies just got a big boost, it's probably best to not immediately release a hugely abuseable piece straight afterwards.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It would actually surprise me a lot more for Recurring Nightmare to get unbanned. Sure, grave hate has improved in previous years but this card is really really hard to interact with and it creates loops for very little mana.
The mana per loop is just too low if you ask me. Try adding in some Ashnod's Altar / Phyrexian Altar with a token producer and its not hard to see this go infinite. Loop Gray Merchant over and over.
I have a hard time seeing this card come back given there are just so few ways to interact with it and it creates loops with like literally any creature. With creatures having gotten better in more recent years it just kind of gives me even more of a reason that this perhaps should not be back.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
It would actually surprise me a lot more for Recurring Nightmare to get unbanned. Sure, grave hate has improved in previous years but this card is really really hard to interact with and it creates loops for very little mana.
The mana per loop is just too low if you ask me. Try adding in some Ashnod's Altar / Phyrexian Altar with a token producer and its not hard to see this go infinite. Loop Gray Merchant over and over.
I have a hard time seeing this card come back given there are just so few ways to interact with it and it creates loops with like literally any creature. With creatures having gotten better in more recent years it just kind of gives me even more of a reason that this perhaps should not be back.
Victimize and Corpse Dance can do all of that as well and just require different pieces than RN. I think people get way too hung up on the fact that it's an enchantment that can't be hit by Naturalize.
In fact, that only place RN is strictly better than those two is using it fairly to get value out of 2 creatures in a loop.
Victimize and Corpse Dance can do all of that as well and just require different pieces than RN. I think people get way too hung up on the fact that it's an enchantment that can't be hit by Naturalize.
In fact, that only place RN is strictly better than those two is using it fairly to get value out of 2 creatures in a loop.
Victimize can only accomplish it with an Eternal Witness (Plus it takes a witness recover / second witness effect). Corpse Dance is 5 mana per loop. Lots of my concern comes from the fact that its self packaged and 3 mana per loop. Cutting 2 mana off of the looping of Corpse Dance is not a small thing.
I am also really not sure that Corpse Dance should be a legal card.
I we voice my opinion here again and agree with ISBPathfinder. I, like many, would LOVE to see this card unbanned as I love reanimator strategies, but this card just does that sound easily and as othersuch have said, the card is very difficult to interact with.
I think that this card is extremely deceptive in its power level because it seems more harmless than it is. Yes, as ProfessorWhen pointed out, there are other cards than can accomplish the same type of loop, but they require oher specific pieces or conditions/restrictions to work the same way. With Recurring Nightmare, it puts everything you need in one easy-to-use card, and I think it would also warp the game around it. (It would certainly warp the player who plays this card to play it as much as he/she could until it was dealt with as it is that simple and powerful.) This is what I believe anyway. And thus is why I don't see this card ever coming off of the banned list, regardless of how much graveyard hate is printed. But I hope I'm wrong!
Victimize and Corpse Dance can do all of that as well and just require different pieces than RN. I think people get way too hung up on the fact that it's an enchantment that can't be hit by Naturalize.
In fact, that only place RN is strictly better than those two is using it fairly to get value out of 2 creatures in a loop.
Victimize can only accomplish it with an Eternal Witness (Plus it takes a witness recover / second witness effect). Corpse Dance is 5 mana per loop. Lots of my concern comes from the fact that its self packaged and 3 mana per loop. Cutting 2 mana off of the looping of Corpse Dance is not a small thing.
I am also really not sure that Corpse Dance should be a legal card.
But what you mentioned before was its ability to combo. All three of those cards go infinite with roughly the same amount of cards. What RN does is work better as its own sac outlet and recursion all together, i.e. fair use. I agree that in a vacuum that it is an absolutely better card than the other two, but as far as degenerate goes, they are directly comparable.
Keep in mind, you need 3 cards to make RN a 3 mana loop, RN and 2 ETB/LTB creatures. If you only have 1, the every other loop you just get back a body. Granted, its fairly trivial to build your deck to accomplish that, but its fairly trivial to build your deck to accomplish many combos. If you don't need the effect of the 2nd creature, its 6 mana to get the effect that you want. I just don't see it being any more degenerate than T&N, Hulk, Lark+Guide. If you stick it in any old deck it is much more likely than those cards to lead you to grind with it and continuously sink mana into it, but that's not always going to be the best thing to do, especially if you aren't building towards it and just throwing it in Meren as another recursion engine, for instance.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
6 mana for one ETB effect is pathetic compared to Deadeye or Conjurerer's Closet. I've never actually seen the card used and don't even have one but 6-9 mana buys you a lot more nice stuff than it did in Nightmare's day. Unless you need abilities on both dudes, you might have plenty of better things you could be doing.
6 mana for one ETB effect is pathetic compared to Deadeye or Conjurerer's Closet. I've never actually seen the card used and don't even have one but 6-9 mana buys you a lot more nice stuff than it did in Nightmare's day. Unless you need abilities on both dudes, you might have plenty of better things you could be doing.
You mean 3 mana for an ETB effect, right? Because you're obviously gonna get back an ETB-Trigger creature. And again. And again. Suddenly sounds a lot better than the 5UUU you have to invest in the first go-around of Deadeye Navigator.
Oh and you can do this effect repeatedly in your turn so how you're even comparing it to Conjurer's Closet I don't know...
Oh and then there's death triggers that might be helped by this card like Kokusho.
Oh and then there's stuff like Grave Pact that also loves seeing this card next to it.
No, Recurring Nightmare isn't in the same ballpark as Conjurer's Closet. It's like a big nuke vs a slingshot.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
For anyone who thinks it's ok to unban just try it out at your local playgroup. If you see yourself doing it over and over it's definitely a problem. To me it's a centralizing problem. If EDH was just about one play and one card, it isn't EDH for me.
For anyone who thinks it's ok to unban just try it out at your local playgroup. If you see yourself doing it over and over it's definitely a problem. To me it's a centralizing problem. If EDH was just about one play and one card, it isn't EDH for me.
Pretty much this. I'may repeating myself at this point, but I've played it and had it played against me in my cube numerous times, and every single time the card plays out in one of two fashions: it either sits in your hand as a dead card because you don't have a chain to loop, or its the only thing you want to cast on your turn.
The only saving grace that makes this card one to consider unbanning is that there are a lot more counterspells, creature exiling effects, graveyard nukes, and reasons to run these cards (thanks to generals like Karador, Meren, Breya, etc) then there were when Nightmare was banned. I think cards like this, Deadeye, etc. are good for the format in the sense that they showcase the importance of building your deck with interactive cards like removal, but at the same time they walk a fine line between creating splashy plays and epic games and simply being oppressive and centralizing to a game.
There are answers to everything in Magic. This is an enchantment that dodges enchantment removal. It does too much for 3 mana, and will take over any game in which it is not countered. Being hard to deal with and being too good at its job are two big nails in the coffin.
I would play the card immediately, because I love it, but it really warps the game quickly.
Well, wanting to do it over and over again isn't necessarily the most fun game play, but cards don't get banned because you're not having fun playing with them. If that's the case, maybe you just shouldn't play them. It also is 6 mana per ability if the ability creature starts on the battlefield. Now, Gravepact is a strong card with it of course, Ghave does it better. It's strong with Kokusho but Gray Merchant is too and and it works with Dead Eye as well. Closet is a good example though because if you just want that one ability, it costs 9 or 12 to do it twice in a turn where Closet does it for free. Nightmare's ideal power is pretty high but you don't even have to pay full price for Deadeye or Merchant. They're creatures and easy to cheat in. Buried Alive and Victimize can easily set up the same thing as Nightmare/Kokusho. This is the same thing we come to with Painter's Servant. We can easily do the same or better with legal cards.
There are answers to everything in Magic. This is an enchantment that dodges enchantment removal. It does too much for 3 mana, and will take over any game in which it is not countered. Being hard to deal with and being too good at its job are two big nails in the coffin.
I would play the card immediately, because I love it, but it really warps the game quickly.
I'm not arguing to unban it. I think it should remained banned, but feel there is more justification to discuss the card now.
For anyone who thinks it's ok to unban just try it out at your local playgroup. If you see yourself doing it over and over it's definitely a problem. To me it's a centralizing problem. If EDH was just about one play and one card, it isn't EDH for me.
Is "doing it over and over" a problem? I mean, once you have DEN out that's pretty much all you do until it's dealt with. There's little reason to do anything else. And guess what? DEN isn't an issue.
There are answers to everything in Magic. This is an enchantment that dodges enchantment removal. It does too much for 3 mana, and will take over any game in which it is not countered. Being hard to deal with and being too good at its job are two big nails in the coffin.
I would play the card immediately, because I love it, but it really warps the game quickly.
Except the problem with PT was that everyone was focusing on it as soon as the card popped up in the game. The game became PT: the gathering. RN is not really an issue in that regard. It's only the owner of the card doing stuff with it.
There are answers to everything in Magic. This is an enchantment that dodges enchantment removal. It does too much for 3 mana, and will take over any game in which it is not countered. Being hard to deal with and being too good at its job are two big nails in the coffin.
I would play the card immediately, because I love it, but it really warps the game quickly.
I'm not arguing to unban it. I think it should remained banned, but feel there is more justification to discuss the card now.
What would need to change in order for it to be a candidate for unbanning? More Angel of Jubilation effects, maybe?
Except the problem with PT was that everyone was focusing on it as soon as the card popped up in the game. The game became PT: the gathering. RN is not really an issue in that regard. It's only the owner of the card doing stuff with it.
I think you missed my point. My point was that there are answers to PT, from Aven Mindcensor to Torpor Orb. The existence of answers is not enough to make a card less broken. I used PT as an example, but we can talk about any banned card. The ability to find answers to a card does not make the card a candidate for unbanning. The meta-game needs to change enough such that the card is no longer too powerful for the format.
I also feel like you have never experienced a Recurring Nightmare if you think PT is worse. PT gets two lands then you kill it. Nightmare loops creatures... whether they are Solemn Simulacrum or Ashen Rider or Yosei, the Morning Star or even Shriekmaw. You can't destroy the nightmare. Even if you exile a creature, all they need to do is play a different one and start looping it instead. You can't just use a removal spell to disrupt this card.
I think that in order to be a consideration for unbanning, three things need to happen. First and foremost, people need to start playing with and against it. Talk to your playgroups and see if you can test.it out, then report back to the RC with (detailed) results. Remember, the point isn't to see just how much you can abuse it, the point is to jam it into existing decks where you'd be likely to run it, but without making other changes to make it better. This will give a baseline of how dangerous it is without effort. As you may recall, years ago one of the justifications for keeping Hulk banned was because it was a cascading card: you threw it in a deck for value, then you started running a sac outlet or two, then you'd throw some specific creature to tutor, and then you found yourself tutoring for Hulk. If a similar urge is present with Nightmare, you know the card is warping.
Secondly, we need to examine not only what countermeasures exist, but which ones are commonly played. Blue has counterspells for days, but it also has Stifle effects, which get used to varying degrees (hello, Disallow!) White and black each get graveyard nuking effects. However, we should be focusing on instant speed ones that aren't projected. After all, you're probably not going to Nightmare into an untapped Nihil Spellbomb or Scavenging Ooze. This lessens the number of commonly played cards, but doesn't outright get rid of them altogether.
Lastly, we should consider the opportunity cost for running Nightmare. Consider Hulk again: in the years since it came out, there have been a plethora of seven drop creatures that have huge splashy effects, often times ending games (or setting up a win). So while Hulk is still good, it is by no means the auto include it probably was back then. Nightmare cost three mana, in a format where Animate Dead is strong enough to see play and Necromancy is a near staple (yes, I know it's because of the flash potential). If a 2 CMC reanimate is good, then spending 1 more mana to potentially do it over and over with little downside is amazing. Whereas Hulk has become less impressive over time because of all the other creatures, Nightmare has become more impressive because of all the options that are available now. Think about it, Nightmare was banned basically for interacting with Kokopuff. Now, she's legal because she is underwhelming with everything else we have.
So last night we did an 11 person cube draft. Bobthefunny ended up drafting Recurring Nightmare. In the first game he had it paired with Monastery Mentor, and in the second I believe it had backup from Avenger of Zendikar. Afterward I asked if there was anything that was too oppressive in the cube. The resounding response was RN (and Primeval Titan, but that's a discussion for a different thread). While I'm still on the fence about this card in a constructed setting where you have more ability to adjust your deck for the competition, I am still questionable about this card. Maybe after we see how players react and use Protean Hulk, we can get a better idea of how they would react to a RN unban.
And looking at the reasoning this may have a chance of getting unbanned.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
True.
But I want to remind today's universe (after it was banned) we have a whole truck load of brand new removal and graveyard hate and other reanimate spells today. Take lay bare the heart and scarab feast and watchers of the dead from amonkhet for example.
And also a strategy is to focus on the creature that comes back not the enchantment.
No, the strategy is really to focus on nightmare, because it is so good at reanimating many creatures over the course of the game, repeatedly, letting you either continuously grind out the best two or to use your grave as a toolbox recurring whatever is needed for the situation.
That said, mass grave hate, discard, and even just countering nightmare can handle it. When it was first banned, there weren't as many effects that let you just get as repetitive as nightmare. Now there are. Its probably the most likely candidate, along with painter's servant.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The mana per loop is just too low if you ask me. Try adding in some Ashnod's Altar / Phyrexian Altar with a token producer and its not hard to see this go infinite. Loop Gray Merchant over and over.
I have a hard time seeing this card come back given there are just so few ways to interact with it and it creates loops with like literally any creature. With creatures having gotten better in more recent years it just kind of gives me even more of a reason that this perhaps should not be back.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Victimize and Corpse Dance can do all of that as well and just require different pieces than RN. I think people get way too hung up on the fact that it's an enchantment that can't be hit by Naturalize.
In fact, that only place RN is strictly better than those two is using it fairly to get value out of 2 creatures in a loop.
Victimize can only accomplish it with an Eternal Witness (Plus it takes a witness recover / second witness effect). Corpse Dance is 5 mana per loop. Lots of my concern comes from the fact that its self packaged and 3 mana per loop. Cutting 2 mana off of the looping of Corpse Dance is not a small thing.
I am also really not sure that Corpse Dance should be a legal card.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I think that this card is extremely deceptive in its power level because it seems more harmless than it is. Yes, as ProfessorWhen pointed out, there are other cards than can accomplish the same type of loop, but they require oher specific pieces or conditions/restrictions to work the same way. With Recurring Nightmare, it puts everything you need in one easy-to-use card, and I think it would also warp the game around it. (It would certainly warp the player who plays this card to play it as much as he/she could until it was dealt with as it is that simple and powerful.) This is what I believe anyway. And thus is why I don't see this card ever coming off of the banned list, regardless of how much graveyard hate is printed. But I hope I'm wrong!
But what you mentioned before was its ability to combo. All three of those cards go infinite with roughly the same amount of cards. What RN does is work better as its own sac outlet and recursion all together, i.e. fair use. I agree that in a vacuum that it is an absolutely better card than the other two, but as far as degenerate goes, they are directly comparable.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
You mean 3 mana for an ETB effect, right? Because you're obviously gonna get back an ETB-Trigger creature. And again. And again. Suddenly sounds a lot better than the 5UUU you have to invest in the first go-around of Deadeye Navigator.
Oh and you can do this effect repeatedly in your turn so how you're even comparing it to Conjurer's Closet I don't know...
Oh and then there's death triggers that might be helped by this card like Kokusho.
Oh and then there's stuff like Grave Pact that also loves seeing this card next to it.
No, Recurring Nightmare isn't in the same ballpark as Conjurer's Closet. It's like a big nuke vs a slingshot.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Pretty much this. I'may repeating myself at this point, but I've played it and had it played against me in my cube numerous times, and every single time the card plays out in one of two fashions: it either sits in your hand as a dead card because you don't have a chain to loop, or its the only thing you want to cast on your turn.
The only saving grace that makes this card one to consider unbanning is that there are a lot more counterspells, creature exiling effects, graveyard nukes, and reasons to run these cards (thanks to generals like Karador, Meren, Breya, etc) then there were when Nightmare was banned. I think cards like this, Deadeye, etc. are good for the format in the sense that they showcase the importance of building your deck with interactive cards like removal, but at the same time they walk a fine line between creating splashy plays and epic games and simply being oppressive and centralizing to a game.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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That's like unbanning Primeval Titan because of Torpor Orb and Hushwing Gryff.
There are answers to everything in Magic. This is an enchantment that dodges enchantment removal. It does too much for 3 mana, and will take over any game in which it is not countered. Being hard to deal with and being too good at its job are two big nails in the coffin.
I would play the card immediately, because I love it, but it really warps the game quickly.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I'm not arguing to unban it. I think it should remained banned, but feel there is more justification to discuss the card now.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Is "doing it over and over" a problem? I mean, once you have DEN out that's pretty much all you do until it's dealt with. There's little reason to do anything else. And guess what? DEN isn't an issue.
Except the problem with PT was that everyone was focusing on it as soon as the card popped up in the game. The game became PT: the gathering. RN is not really an issue in that regard. It's only the owner of the card doing stuff with it.
What would need to change in order for it to be a candidate for unbanning? More Angel of Jubilation effects, maybe?
I think you missed my point. My point was that there are answers to PT, from Aven Mindcensor to Torpor Orb. The existence of answers is not enough to make a card less broken. I used PT as an example, but we can talk about any banned card. The ability to find answers to a card does not make the card a candidate for unbanning. The meta-game needs to change enough such that the card is no longer too powerful for the format.
I also feel like you have never experienced a Recurring Nightmare if you think PT is worse. PT gets two lands then you kill it. Nightmare loops creatures... whether they are Solemn Simulacrum or Ashen Rider or Yosei, the Morning Star or even Shriekmaw. You can't destroy the nightmare. Even if you exile a creature, all they need to do is play a different one and start looping it instead. You can't just use a removal spell to disrupt this card.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Secondly, we need to examine not only what countermeasures exist, but which ones are commonly played. Blue has counterspells for days, but it also has Stifle effects, which get used to varying degrees (hello, Disallow!) White and black each get graveyard nuking effects. However, we should be focusing on instant speed ones that aren't projected. After all, you're probably not going to Nightmare into an untapped Nihil Spellbomb or Scavenging Ooze. This lessens the number of commonly played cards, but doesn't outright get rid of them altogether.
Lastly, we should consider the opportunity cost for running Nightmare. Consider Hulk again: in the years since it came out, there have been a plethora of seven drop creatures that have huge splashy effects, often times ending games (or setting up a win). So while Hulk is still good, it is by no means the auto include it probably was back then. Nightmare cost three mana, in a format where Animate Dead is strong enough to see play and Necromancy is a near staple (yes, I know it's because of the flash potential). If a 2 CMC reanimate is good, then spending 1 more mana to potentially do it over and over with little downside is amazing. Whereas Hulk has become less impressive over time because of all the other creatures, Nightmare has become more impressive because of all the options that are available now. Think about it, Nightmare was banned basically for interacting with Kokopuff. Now, she's legal because she is underwhelming with everything else we have.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Don't forget Karakas...
Oh, and yeah, RN was disgustingly strong, between Monastery Mentor, Grave Titan, and Myr Retriever + Mindslaver.