It'd be interesting to add the "exile your hand between mulligans" to the traditional rule but I think that's just more confusing and not necessary.
We do this mostly as a time saving measure. If you mull twice, which is reasonable with a free first mull, that's a lot of shuffling. In the interest of getting games moving, we just toss the hand aside. It makes it a little easier to dig for specific cards if you're so inclined, but I'm not aware of anyone I play with abusing that.
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I play with the same dudes on an irregular basis and I play mostly combo decks. I've noticed that the partial paris we use is the cause of many of my explosive starts. It either wins me the game or I lose in archenemy.
I really want us to try the modified Vancouver mulligan and see if the scry 1 is helpful at all (maybe scry 2? - but that might be too much). Hand sculpting for combo decks is just too good. I hate partial paris and it benefits me the most out of my group.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
The Vancouver mulligan, or a variant with not reshuffling until the end, is how I would like to see things go. I have always despised partial Paris and the hand-sculpting which it allows.
As you're thinking about this topic, consider two things:
1. The days of Partial Paris are numbered. The hand-sculpting it allows is one of the issues that Alex addressed in the announcement.
2. We don't want to waste players' time. Hopefully we can come up with something which minimizes shuffling while still providing you the opportunity to draw a playable hand.
No mulligan is going to be perfect. The idea will be to give players the best opportunity to be in the game from the get-go.
As you're thinking about this topic, consider two things:
1. The days of Partial Paris are numbered. The hand-sculpting it allows is one of the issues that Alex addressed in the announcement.
2. We don't want to waste players' time. Hopefully we can come up with something which minimizes shuffling while still providing you the opportunity to draw a playable hand.
No mulligan is going to be perfect. The idea will be to give players the best opportunity to be in the game from the get-go.
Sheldon, do you think that a free mulligan AND scrying (below 7) is still too much of a way to sculpt if so inclined?
As you're thinking about this topic, consider two things:
1. The days of Partial Paris are numbered. The hand-sculpting it allows is one of the issues that Alex addressed in the announcement.
2. We don't want to waste players' time. Hopefully we can come up with something which minimizes shuffling while still providing you the opportunity to draw a playable hand.
No mulligan is going to be perfect. The idea will be to give players the best opportunity to be in the game from the get-go.
Not that this is a big improvement as it would also be a variant mulligan but what if instead of shuffling the 7 cards back into the deck and drawing again you set aside any mulligans you took. In some ways it might still be hand sculpting as it gives you better chances of getting specific cards but it also expidites the process by putting the shuffle back in at the end instead of as part of every mulligan.
I am really just spit balling. It doesn't help streamline the rules but it helps with the time of shuffling while still going away from Partial Paris. If I have my opening hand with no lands / one land or something like that I think I would prefer whats left for me to draw into to be a little more packed with lands.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
As you're thinking about this topic, consider two things:
1. The days of Partial Paris are numbered. The hand-sculpting it allows is one of the issues that Alex addressed in the announcement.
2. We don't want to waste players' time. Hopefully we can come up with something which minimizes shuffling while still providing you the opportunity to draw a playable hand.
No mulligan is going to be perfect. The idea will be to give players the best opportunity to be in the game from the get-go.
Not that this is a big improvement as it would also be a variant mulligan but what if instead of shuffling the 7 cards back into the deck and drawing again you set aside any mulligans you took. In some ways it might still be hand sculpting as it gives you better chances of getting specific cards but it also expidites the process by putting the shuffle back in at the end instead of as part of every mulligan.
I am really just spit balling. It doesn't help streamline the rules but it helps with the time of shuffling while still going away from Partial Paris. If I have my opening hand with no lands / one land or something like that I think I would prefer whats left for me to draw into to be a little more packed with lands.
So, something like serum powder? No partial but still doesn't have the chance of redrawing the same cards? It really isn't much different than what's used now, but with less hand sculpting and more digging.
As you're thinking about this topic, consider two things:
1. The days of Partial Paris are numbered. The hand-sculpting it allows is one of the issues that Alex addressed in the announcement.
2. We don't want to waste players' time. Hopefully we can come up with something which minimizes shuffling while still providing you the opportunity to draw a playable hand.
No mulligan is going to be perfect. The idea will be to give players the best opportunity to be in the game from the get-go.
I'm in favor of a First-Free Full Exile Vancouver Mulligan. As complicated as the name sounds, the process is a lot simpler.
"You may exile your starting hand and draw the same number of cards. You may then repeat this process but draw 1 less card each time. When you are done with mulligans, shuffle all exiled cards into your library. Then, if your opening hand has fewer cards than your starting hand, you may scry 1."
If the term "Vancouver Mulligan" somehow implies the need to shuffle (I personally didn't see that though), it could always be called First-Free Full Exile Scry Mulligan instead. As long as the name is, it basically spells out everything the process does and the process does meet your criteria.
Sheldon, do you think that a free mulligan AND scrying (below 7) is still too much of a way to sculpt if so inclined?
Nah, that's a baseline (though a pretty reasonable one). We're more likely to look for ways to be more generous than less.
Ultimately, we'd like to find something that is simple, makes sure you start with something playable, and isn't horribly abusable. Getting two of those is easy. Getting all three is hard.
Oh, and it has to be writeable in the rules. Can't put in "Don't abuse this". I checked
Glad to see that Partial Paris is finally being excised from EDH. Good luck cheating on running enough lands now! Without PP, I think we will really see how toxic the "explosive starts" that some players loathe really are. Without the consistency that PP gives (although the percentages are hard to actually factor, it undoubtedly gives better starting hands), I feel as though the power level of certain players' opening hands will be brought down while finding a reasonable way to provide casual players with a functional mulligan rule immune to abuse.
The exile the full hand and draw a new one with a free mull and scrying when the hand is less than 7 sounds like one of the better ideas. I'd still prefer to implement the Vancouver mulligan (with shuffling) with a first one free policy, but that is personal preference. If the time taken to shuffle is so much of a concern, you can obviously make the rule to just have exiling instead of re-shuffling.
Nah, that's a baseline (though a pretty reasonable one). We're more likely to look for ways to be more generous than less.
Ultimately, we'd like to find something that is simple, makes sure you start with something playable, and isn't horribly abusable. Getting two of those is easy. Getting all three is hard.
Oh, and it has to be writeable in the rules. Can't put in "Don't abuse this". I checked
As you're thinking about this topic, consider two things:
1. The days of Partial Paris are numbered. The hand-sculpting it allows is one of the issues that Alex addressed in the announcement.
2. We don't want to waste players' time. Hopefully we can come up with something which minimizes shuffling while still providing you the opportunity to draw a playable hand.
No mulligan is going to be perfect. The idea will be to give players the best opportunity to be in the game from the get-go.
Not that this is a big improvement as it would also be a variant mulligan but what if instead of shuffling the 7 cards back into the deck and drawing again you set aside any mulligans you took. In some ways it might still be hand sculpting as it gives you better chances of getting specific cards but it also expidites the process by putting the shuffle back in at the end instead of as part of every mulligan.
I am really just spit balling. It doesn't help streamline the rules but it helps with the time of shuffling while still going away from Partial Paris. If I have my opening hand with no lands / one land or something like that I think I would prefer whats left for me to draw into to be a little more packed with lands.
This is really the wrong way to think about it. If you draw a no-land hand, you don't want your next hand to be packed with lands -- you generally want the land:nonland ratio of your opening hand to be the same as the land:nonland ratio of your deck, aka zero variance. With full mulligans, shuffling each time will generally increase the number of playable hands you get by a small amount because it brings the pendulum back to the middle instead of swinging it in the other direction.
Think about it: in a 37-land deck, if you draw an opening hand of 7 land, then mulligan, you are now drawing from a 30-land deck. Could be dangerous... but I like the difficult decisions it presents.
I still like this "Vancouver Serum Powder" idea simply because of the time it saves, though. I think Cryogen's group has been doing something similar for a while now.
We have. As far as I know we've always done the full mull exile, and only recently introduced the scry. I know I can't be the only one doing it, but for whatever reason it seemed to get a lot of support when I initially brought it up online.
I'm in favor of a First-Free Full Exile Vancouver Mulligan. As complicated as the name sounds, the process is a lot simpler.
"You may exile your starting hand and draw the same number of cards. You may then repeat this process but draw 1 less card each time. When you are done with mulligans, shuffle all exiled cards into your library. Then, if your opening hand has fewer cards than your starting hand, you may scry 1."
If the term "Vancouver Mulligan" somehow implies the need to shuffle (I personally didn't see that though), it could always be called First-Free Full Exile Scry Mulligan instead. As long as the name is, it basically spells out everything the process does and the process does meet your criteria.
This is my favorite suggestion thus far for a mulligan rule. It follows what papa_funk said of being simple, being writeable to the rules, and it should (in theory) result in seeing a playable hand. I also like what d0su said about it being slightly dangerous. I think there needs to be a bit more risk in choosing whether to mulligan.
As for papa_funk's third criteria of abusability: The only scenario that sprang to mind was a case in which a game ended, and a player chooses to use the same deck for the next game. Typically players clump their lands, graveyard, and hand together, toss all of this into the library and shuffle. If a player wanted to, they could place cards they would want to see together (Karmic Guide and Reveillark, or Omniscience and Enter the Infinite as examples) and they would have a better chance of mulliganing to that card clump since they are digging deeper with the mulligans.
Lastly, should there be any clauses about mulling into 0-1 land hands when you are already down to 4-5 cards in your hand? In my playgroup at least, if you have this type of hand we allow people to reshuffle the exiled cards from the Partial Paris and draw a new 7, as we would rather so a player with a good opening hand than sit around because RNG hates them.
We've been playing with two choices. Either you do a partial paris, or do full mulligan (7,7,6,5,etc.) with shuffles in between. If you use partial, you can only use it once. In other words, if you set aside three cards to draw three new cards, that's it and you're locked into your hand.
Speaking as one of the few combo players in the group (there are a bit more lately) and someone running a low land count (35-36) if I get a hand with three or less lands and no playable mana rocks I always go full mulligan. Being limited to one partial means it is far too risky to try and sculpt, even keeping two lands and an unplayable rock to get four new cards is much riskier than going for seven totally new cards from a shuffled deck.
Like d0su said, exiling hands in between full mulligans will present a tough choice. It disrupts combo, or fast mana starts in general, but it also provides a risk, if you exile a hand with too many lands, of drawing too few lands.
If I had a hand with too little mana and was given the choice between partialing once or using the new cmdr vancouver mulligan I would choose the new mulligan - even with the exile - every time, because it still provides more chances to get the right mana.
Next time I get a group to play EDH I'm going to suggest using Vancouver, no shuffle, one free and see how it goes over.
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I really want us to try the modified Vancouver mulligan and see if the scry 1 is helpful at all (maybe scry 2? - but that might be too much). Hand sculpting for combo decks is just too good. I hate partial paris and it benefits me the most out of my group.
1. The days of Partial Paris are numbered. The hand-sculpting it allows is one of the issues that Alex addressed in the announcement.
2. We don't want to waste players' time. Hopefully we can come up with something which minimizes shuffling while still providing you the opportunity to draw a playable hand.
No mulligan is going to be perfect. The idea will be to give players the best opportunity to be in the game from the get-go.
Sheldon, do you think that a free mulligan AND scrying (below 7) is still too much of a way to sculpt if so inclined?
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Not that this is a big improvement as it would also be a variant mulligan but what if instead of shuffling the 7 cards back into the deck and drawing again you set aside any mulligans you took. In some ways it might still be hand sculpting as it gives you better chances of getting specific cards but it also expidites the process by putting the shuffle back in at the end instead of as part of every mulligan.
I am really just spit balling. It doesn't help streamline the rules but it helps with the time of shuffling while still going away from Partial Paris. If I have my opening hand with no lands / one land or something like that I think I would prefer whats left for me to draw into to be a little more packed with lands.
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So, something like serum powder? No partial but still doesn't have the chance of redrawing the same cards? It really isn't much different than what's used now, but with less hand sculpting and more digging.
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I'll still recommend what I mentioned earlier:
If the term "Vancouver Mulligan" somehow implies the need to shuffle (I personally didn't see that though), it could always be called First-Free Full Exile Scry Mulligan instead. As long as the name is, it basically spells out everything the process does and the process does meet your criteria.
Nah, that's a baseline (though a pretty reasonable one). We're more likely to look for ways to be more generous than less.
Ultimately, we'd like to find something that is simple, makes sure you start with something playable, and isn't horribly abusable. Getting two of those is easy. Getting all three is hard.
Oh, and it has to be writeable in the rules. Can't put in "Don't abuse this". I checked
Well..... you probably could. I dont know how useful it would be though.
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The exile the full hand and draw a new one with a free mull and scrying when the hand is less than 7 sounds like one of the better ideas. I'd still prefer to implement the Vancouver mulligan (with shuffling) with a first one free policy, but that is personal preference. If the time taken to shuffle is so much of a concern, you can obviously make the rule to just have exiling instead of re-shuffling.
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Think about it: in a 37-land deck, if you draw an opening hand of 7 land, then mulligan, you are now drawing from a 30-land deck. Could be dangerous... but I like the difficult decisions it presents.
I still like this "Vancouver Serum Powder" idea simply because of the time it saves, though. I think Cryogen's group has been doing something similar for a while now.
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But let's say I go:
Opening hand - mull
Free 7 - mull
6 - no land
?????
Would you draw a 6 card hand in that instance?
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This is my favorite suggestion thus far for a mulligan rule. It follows what papa_funk said of being simple, being writeable to the rules, and it should (in theory) result in seeing a playable hand. I also like what d0su said about it being slightly dangerous. I think there needs to be a bit more risk in choosing whether to mulligan.
As for papa_funk's third criteria of abusability: The only scenario that sprang to mind was a case in which a game ended, and a player chooses to use the same deck for the next game. Typically players clump their lands, graveyard, and hand together, toss all of this into the library and shuffle. If a player wanted to, they could place cards they would want to see together (Karmic Guide and Reveillark, or Omniscience and Enter the Infinite as examples) and they would have a better chance of mulliganing to that card clump since they are digging deeper with the mulligans.
Lastly, should there be any clauses about mulling into 0-1 land hands when you are already down to 4-5 cards in your hand? In my playgroup at least, if you have this type of hand we allow people to reshuffle the exiled cards from the Partial Paris and draw a new 7, as we would rather so a player with a good opening hand than sit around because RNG hates them.
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Speaking as one of the few combo players in the group (there are a bit more lately) and someone running a low land count (35-36) if I get a hand with three or less lands and no playable mana rocks I always go full mulligan. Being limited to one partial means it is far too risky to try and sculpt, even keeping two lands and an unplayable rock to get four new cards is much riskier than going for seven totally new cards from a shuffled deck.
Like d0su said, exiling hands in between full mulligans will present a tough choice. It disrupts combo, or fast mana starts in general, but it also provides a risk, if you exile a hand with too many lands, of drawing too few lands.
If I had a hand with too little mana and was given the choice between partialing once or using the new cmdr vancouver mulligan I would choose the new mulligan - even with the exile - every time, because it still provides more chances to get the right mana.
This makes me very, very happy. I have always felt the PP mulligan was the worst aspect of the format.