Painter's servant is more consistent than WGD and LED. Sometimes a ban list bans the more powerful cards. I know that sounds odd considering we are talking about an inconsistent ban list, but it's valid to remember that power still applies. It's exclusively why gifts ungiven is banned, afterall.
With that in mind, grindstone is not powerful. Iona could be banned instead, but you've just doubled the number of accidental land wipes (with mycosynth lattice the main offender right now), which is something that has to be considered.
Let's be honest, Iona + Painter's servant isn't a two card combo even though it technically is. It's a de facto one card combo because it's too easy to Tinker both creatures into play with Tooth and Nail or even Defense of the Heart. Mostly through the former.
On the tangent of Tooth and Nail, that card is starting to become a bit more worrisome to me now that Innistrad is out. With the printing of Village Bell-Ringer, more decks can now instantly win on the spot with a resolved Tooth and Nail with Kiki-Jiki + VBR. Before you only had to worry about 5-color and Intet-colored decks Toothing up Kiki-Jiki + Pestermite. Now Naya-colored decks have access to the instant win as well. It's only a matter of time before Wizards prints a more accessible and powerful combo that a ton of decks can use to make Tooth and Nail a true "I win" button. Whether it will happen next set or four years later down the road isn't important; it's more that it's inevitable.
For now, Tooth and Nail is obviously fine. But don't be surprised to see the card in danger much later in the format's future after the card gets its hands on tons of new creatures to abuse with.
Before you only had to worry about 5-color and Intet-colored decks Toothing up Kiki-Jiki + Pestermite. Now Naya-colored decks have access to the instant win as well.
I don't see why Falling Star is banned. It seems like the fun it brings is what EDH is all about, and it does not appear to be overpowered.
Its banned in Vintage and therefore its banned in Commander. Honestly the manual dexterity cards are just a nightmare because they just cause so much trouble for pretty much no gain.
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I don't see why Falling Star is banned. It seems like the fun it brings is what EDH is all about, and it does not appear to be overpowered.
Because it's awful enough that there's no need to add an extra rule to allow it since it would very rarely see play. Also, because playing with all your creatures at least 9 cm apart is annoying.
Mostly though, there's no need to rule it legal since no one but the most stickly sticklers will ever complain if you cast it. So go for it.
1. Announce Falling Star
2. Click and drag it onto the stack
3. Flip your laptop or computer monitor at least 360 degrees
4. Drag it onto whatever creature you want.
There's really no way to make it touch two creatures on Cockatrice or MWS, so it's just a really bad Lightning Bolt + Panic Attack.
I agree with CobraShuttle. Unban manual dexterity cards!
1. Announce Falling Star
2. Click and drag it onto the stack
3. Flip your laptop or computer monitor at least 360 degrees
4. Drag it onto whatever creature you want.
No, that's wrong. The card shouldn't be dragged in any way. We should simply just flip the laptop / computer monitor at least 360 degrees and a foot high and see where the digital card ends on its own volition.
As always, vids or it didn't happen.
Just a minor nitpick though. Falling Star is not banned in EDH. It is simply not in the card pool to begin with. Saying that it is banned makes as much sense as saying that Umezawa's Jitte is banned in the Shards-Innistrad Standard
and what about the ban of staff of domination? do you think it's really a broken card whereas an umbral mantle can do better in a ezuri edh?
You mentioned one specific EDH deck. Said deck is heavily reliant on multiple creatures. Said combo is also reliant on multiple creatures (4+).
Said combo is not capable of drawing out the user's deck. Said combo is not useable in mono-Black/Blue/Red/White.
Staff of Domination could be put in any deck that can produce either infinite or ridiculous amounts of mana. It won games if it resolved during an infinite combo. Your combo only works at Sorcery speed, only if you have 4 creatures (including one very specific Elf), and falls completely apart to a well-timed StP.
Staff was also an infinite mana combo with the very creature you are referring to. It worked far better than Umbral Mantle ever did.
For now, Tooth and Nail is obviously fine. But don't be surprised to see the card in danger much later in the format's future after the card gets its hands on tons of new creatures to abuse with.
Wait are we really getting worried about a 9-mana sorcery speed combo? That will some how break the game? No matter how good creatures get, an entwined TandN will still be 9-mana. That is not even close to Hermit Druid levels of good. Hell it isn't even close to being as good as Mind Over Matter + any number of cards. For the record, I don't think that any of the spells >6 mana on the banned list should be there, if someone can produce that much mana, they can find other, more efficient ways to win.
Wait are we really getting worried about a 9-mana sorcery speed combo? That will some how break the game? No matter how good creatures get, an entwined TandN will still be 9-mana. That is not even close to Hermit Druid levels of good. Hell it isn't even close to being as good as Mind Over Matter + any number of cards. For the record, I don't think that any of the spells >6 mana on the banned list should be there, if someone can produce that much mana, they can find other, more efficient ways to win.
People get worried over the banned Coalition Victory and it's only a 8-mana sorcery speed combo.....requiring your 5 color general to be in play to make it work. One piece of instant removal and the combo falls apart.
I can totally see Tooth and Nail on the chopping block; especially with all the recent creature brokeness that's been hitting the table. Thankfully Emmy has been banned, but others might as well seal your fate....escpecially those two creature combo lockouts.
Saying that it is banned makes as much sense as saying that Umezawa's Jitte is banned in the Shards-Innistrad Standard
I wish Shards/Zen were still legal in Standard. Bloodbraid into...I don't even know?
Anyway. The "but 9 mana is SO MUCH MANA" argument doesn't hold a whole lot of weight in a multiplayer environment, especially when the power level of discard/counters in multiplayer is taken into account (and their subsequent absence from the format).
T&N will probably get banned within the next year or two. The ability to assemble two-card locks off of one card is exactly why Gifts is banned (though obviously Gifts is much stronger).
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I wish Shards/Zen were still legal in Standard. Bloodbraid into...I don't even know?
Anyway. The "but 9 mana is SO MUCH MANA" argument doesn't hold a whole lot of weight in a multiplayer environment, especially when the power level of discard/counters in multiplayer is taken into account (and their subsequent absence from the format).
T&N will probably get banned within the next year or two. The ability to assemble two-card locks off of one card is exactly why Gifts is banned (though obviously Gifts is much stronger).
Counters are still strong in a multiplayer format for exactly this reason. If players are unwilling to play counters and/or spot removal then yes, they will likely lose to 9 mana combos. Dedicated combo decks will win on turns 2-5, long before they can reach 9 mana. A nine mana combo isn't even remotely approaching being overpowered.
Expensive combos will dominate casual tables because no one is willing to run answers because "they aren't good in multiplayer games!". Banning Tooth and Nail won't solve this problem because there are an almost infinite amount of combos that will dominate those same casual tables. I can understand banning absurdly fast or broken combo pieces but once you get into banning expensive, sorcery speed combos you are seriously watering down the format.
Does anyone else feel like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker might start getting closer to the point where we might talking about him for discussion on the ban list? I mean it seems like with every new set it is sort of like a peek a boo what did kiki pick up this time. With INN he picked up another finisher in white this time. I mean I like the bugger as much as the next guy but he is really getting annoying how he is just so abusive with like damn near anything.
Does anyone else think we will get to the point that he might need to be banned or am I just imagining this? I am not saying due to this set or the current setup but overall I feel like the power creep of Kiki just becomes a bit stronger with every set. I feel like it is sort of inevitable that he gets the hammer.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Does anyone else feel like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker might start getting closer to the point where we might talking about him for discussion on the ban list? I mean it seems like with every new set it is sort of like a peek a boo what did kiki pick up this time. With INN he picked up another finisher in white this time. I mean I like the bugger as much as the next guy but he is really getting annoying how he is just so abusive with like damn near anything.
Does anyone else think we will get to the point that he might need to be banned or am I just imagining this? I am not saying due to this set or the current setup but overall I feel like the power creep of Kiki just becomes a bit stronger with every set. I feel like it is sort of inevitable that he gets the hammer.
No way this guy is ever banned barring some even more ludacris infi-combo than Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch. He's red, trip red at that, and not broken by any means, just really strong when out there with other really strong creatures. The infi combos are there, but not detrimental to the format or worth banning.
Counters are still strong in a multiplayer format for exactly this reason. If players are unwilling to play counters and/or spot removal then yes, they will likely lose to 9 mana combos. Dedicated combo decks will win on turns 2-5, long before they can reach 9 mana. A nine mana combo isn't even remotely approaching being overpowered.
You can counter Coalition Victory just as easy as you can counter Tooth and Nail. Both are susceptible to instant speed removal (whether before the spell is cast or after it is resolved). I see little difference between the two OTHER than the entire point of Coalition Victory is to combo with the general and win whereas with Tooth and Nail, one does not necessarily tutor for combo pieces, (but it would be silly not to).
Does anyone else feel like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker might start getting closer to the point where we might talking about him for discussion on the ban list? I mean it seems like with every new set it is sort of like a peek a boo what did kiki pick up this time. With INN he picked up another finisher in white this time. I mean I like the bugger as much as the next guy but he is really getting annoying how he is just so abusive with like damn near anything.
Does anyone else think we will get to the point that he might need to be banned or am I just imagining this? I am not saying due to this set or the current setup but overall I feel like the power creep of Kiki just becomes a bit stronger with every set. I feel like it is sort of inevitable that he gets the hammer.
Wow. This. I was half done writing a paragraph about this guy in my last post, and then figured I'd leave it out as my point was made; but now that you've mentioned it, I'll give you a +1 for it. Definately will be on the hit list. Only a matter of time. It's only saving grace is that it's red, and red needs all the help it can get.
Wait are we really getting worried about a 9-mana sorcery speed combo? That will some how break the game? No matter how good creatures get, an entwined TandN will still be 9-mana. That is not even close to Hermit Druid levels of good. Hell it isn't even close to being as good as Mind Over Matter + any number of cards. For the record, I don't think that any of the spells >6 mana on the banned list should be there, if someone can produce that much mana, they can find other, more efficient ways to win.
I wasn't claiming that TnN was at levels of Hermit Druid brokenness. I will also agree that MoM is power and combo-rific. Tooth and Nail isn't the most broken thing legal in the format by any stretch but its a pretty efficient way to win games with that much mana. Even Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre doesn't win games as quick and is also very weak to bribery.
EDIT: just to weigh in, I don't think Kiki is worth banning. If it was going to happen it would've with pestermite or exarch, which are basically instant wins.
with Tooth and Nail, one does not necessarily tutor for combo pieces, (but it would be silly not to).
That sounds a lot likeProtean Hulk and it was banned for that reason. Tooth and Nail has really moved from that big fun spell that EDH is suppose to be about to one card combo.
Edit: Now that I think about it I cant remember the last time someone cast TaN and we did not have a deal with or die situation
You can counter Coalition Victory just as easy as you can counter Tooth and Nail. Both are susceptible to instant speed removal (whether before the spell is cast or after it is resolved). I see little difference between the two OTHER than the entire point of Coalition Victory is to combo with the general and win whereas with Tooth and Nail, one does not necessarily tutor for combo pieces, (but it would be silly not to).
I don't know if I understand your point, you are comparing Tooth and Nail to Coalition Victory as a reason it should be banned? I can think of no defensible reason that Coalition Victory is on the banned list while many other, better cards are not (and shouldn't be).
Banning cards like Coalition Victory, Kiki Jikki, and Tooth and Nail is really bad for the format. One of the biggest appeals of EDH is that you get to play with a wide selection of cards from the entire history of MTG. Once you start banning slow, easily disrupted combos where are you going to stop?
I wasn't claiming that TnN was at levels of Hermit Druid brokenness. I will also agree that MoM is power and combo-rific. Tooth and Nail isn't the most broken thing legal in the format by any stretch but its a pretty efficient way to win games with that much mana. Even Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre doesn't win games as quick and is also very weak to bribery.
That is exactly the problem with many of these discussions. People lose to a particular card/combo and then they advocate its banning while completely ignoring far superior strategies.
I am not trying to make a movement to ban Kiki but meerly to point out that he has the potential to grow more stupidly powerful with additional cards printed.
The real problem behind kiki is that he has soooooooooo many things that you add him into for a game win. It isnt just 2-3 cards anymore that are like ohhh he is fairly good with this. He has so many just oh by the way I win cards now. And that pool is only going to keep getting larger.
I am not saying he needs to be banned right now... I am just saying that we might need to start talking about the possibility of it sometime in the future.
I am not trying to make a movement to ban Kiki but meerly to point out that he has the potential to grow more stupidly powerful with additional cards printed.
The real problem behind kiki is that he has soooooooooo many things that you add him into for a game win. It isnt just 2-3 cards anymore that are like ohhh he is fairly good with this. He has so many just oh by the way I win cards now. And that pool is only going to keep getting larger.
I am not saying he needs to be banned right now... I am just saying that we might need to start talking about the possibility of it sometime in the future.
I don't mean this come off as an attack, but that seems like fear-mongering. If anything, I think we should be talking about what could come off of the banned list, not what will potentially go on it.
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With that in mind, grindstone is not powerful. Iona could be banned instead, but you've just doubled the number of accidental land wipes (with mycosynth lattice the main offender right now), which is something that has to be considered.
On the tangent of Tooth and Nail, that card is starting to become a bit more worrisome to me now that Innistrad is out. With the printing of Village Bell-Ringer, more decks can now instantly win on the spot with a resolved Tooth and Nail with Kiki-Jiki + VBR. Before you only had to worry about 5-color and Intet-colored decks Toothing up Kiki-Jiki + Pestermite. Now Naya-colored decks have access to the instant win as well. It's only a matter of time before Wizards prints a more accessible and powerful combo that a ton of decks can use to make Tooth and Nail a true "I win" button. Whether it will happen next set or four years later down the road isn't important; it's more that it's inevitable.
For now, Tooth and Nail is obviously fine. But don't be surprised to see the card in danger much later in the format's future after the card gets its hands on tons of new creatures to abuse with.
There is also the convoluted combo in UBG involving Palinchron,Phyrexian Metamorph,Eternal Witness, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger or Keeper of Progenitus and Oona, Queen of the Fae. Granted some of this combo's broken-ness can be attributed to Palinchron. Or even in UG w/ Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and a single creature that can attack or a land that didn't come into play this turn. (I'll come up with a better combo for that one later.)
I have to agree that tooth and nail is seeming increasingly worrisome
BBBMBC Shirei StyleBBB
URUNiv-Mizzet, Warp WorldURU
BGRKresh the BloodbraidedBGR
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
WBVish Kal, Blood ArbiterWB
WBRKaalia of the VastWBR
UBGVorosh, the HunterUBG
WRGisela, Blade of GoldnightWR
WUGJenara, Asura of WarWUG
WBGTeneb, The HarvesterWBG
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG
They ban every physical card in every format. It's just to complicated to deal with this type of card. It's the same for Chaos Orb.
WBGhost Council of OrzhovaBW
GUBThe MimeoplasmBUG
RGWort, the RaidmotherGR
UGRRiku of Two ReflectionsRGU
Casual
WGBJunkStone DeckBGW
BMonoBlack VampireB
Its banned in Vintage and therefore its banned in Commander. Honestly the manual dexterity cards are just a nightmare because they just cause so much trouble for pretty much no gain.
Because it's awful enough that there's no need to add an extra rule to allow it since it would very rarely see play. Also, because playing with all your creatures at least 9 cm apart is annoying.
Mostly though, there's no need to rule it legal since no one but the most stickly sticklers will ever complain if you cast it. So go for it.
MTGO/MWS/Cockartice.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
1. Announce Falling Star
2. Click and drag it onto the stack
3. Flip your laptop or computer monitor at least 360 degrees
4. Drag it onto whatever creature you want.
There's really no way to make it touch two creatures on Cockatrice or MWS, so it's just a really bad Lightning Bolt + Panic Attack.
I agree with CobraShuttle. Unban manual dexterity cards!
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No, that's wrong. The card shouldn't be dragged in any way. We should simply just flip the laptop / computer monitor at least 360 degrees and a foot high and see where the digital card ends on its own volition.
As always, vids or it didn't happen.
Just a minor nitpick though. Falling Star is not banned in EDH. It is simply not in the card pool to begin with. Saying that it is banned makes as much sense as saying that Umezawa's Jitte is banned in the Shards-Innistrad Standard
You mentioned one specific EDH deck. Said deck is heavily reliant on multiple creatures. Said combo is also reliant on multiple creatures (4+).
Said combo is not capable of drawing out the user's deck. Said combo is not useable in mono-Black/Blue/Red/White.
Staff of Domination could be put in any deck that can produce either infinite or ridiculous amounts of mana. It won games if it resolved during an infinite combo. Your combo only works at Sorcery speed, only if you have 4 creatures (including one very specific Elf), and falls completely apart to a well-timed StP.
Staff was also an infinite mana combo with the very creature you are referring to. It worked far better than Umbral Mantle ever did.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
Wait are we really getting worried about a 9-mana sorcery speed combo? That will some how break the game? No matter how good creatures get, an entwined TandN will still be 9-mana. That is not even close to Hermit Druid levels of good. Hell it isn't even close to being as good as Mind Over Matter + any number of cards. For the record, I don't think that any of the spells >6 mana on the banned list should be there, if someone can produce that much mana, they can find other, more efficient ways to win.
People get worried over the banned Coalition Victory and it's only a 8-mana sorcery speed combo.....requiring your 5 color general to be in play to make it work. One piece of instant removal and the combo falls apart.
I can totally see Tooth and Nail on the chopping block; especially with all the recent creature brokeness that's been hitting the table. Thankfully Emmy has been banned, but others might as well seal your fate....escpecially those two creature combo lockouts.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
I wish Shards/Zen were still legal in Standard. Bloodbraid into...I don't even know?
Anyway. The "but 9 mana is SO MUCH MANA" argument doesn't hold a whole lot of weight in a multiplayer environment, especially when the power level of discard/counters in multiplayer is taken into account (and their subsequent absence from the format).
T&N will probably get banned within the next year or two. The ability to assemble two-card locks off of one card is exactly why Gifts is banned (though obviously Gifts is much stronger).
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Counters are still strong in a multiplayer format for exactly this reason. If players are unwilling to play counters and/or spot removal then yes, they will likely lose to 9 mana combos. Dedicated combo decks will win on turns 2-5, long before they can reach 9 mana. A nine mana combo isn't even remotely approaching being overpowered.
Expensive combos will dominate casual tables because no one is willing to run answers because "they aren't good in multiplayer games!". Banning Tooth and Nail won't solve this problem because there are an almost infinite amount of combos that will dominate those same casual tables. I can understand banning absurdly fast or broken combo pieces but once you get into banning expensive, sorcery speed combos you are seriously watering down the format.
Does anyone else think we will get to the point that he might need to be banned or am I just imagining this? I am not saying due to this set or the current setup but overall I feel like the power creep of Kiki just becomes a bit stronger with every set. I feel like it is sort of inevitable that he gets the hammer.
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No way this guy is ever banned barring some even more ludacris infi-combo than Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch. He's red, trip red at that, and not broken by any means, just really strong when out there with other really strong creatures. The infi combos are there, but not detrimental to the format or worth banning.
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You can counter Coalition Victory just as easy as you can counter Tooth and Nail. Both are susceptible to instant speed removal (whether before the spell is cast or after it is resolved). I see little difference between the two OTHER than the entire point of Coalition Victory is to combo with the general and win whereas with Tooth and Nail, one does not necessarily tutor for combo pieces, (but it would be silly not to).
Wow. This. I was half done writing a paragraph about this guy in my last post, and then figured I'd leave it out as my point was made; but now that you've mentioned it, I'll give you a +1 for it. Definately will be on the hit list. Only a matter of time. It's only saving grace is that it's red, and red needs all the help it can get.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
Are you kidding me?
He's triple red - meaning he's very hard to cast outside of mono red, unless you cheat him in with Tooth and Nail - but that is the true offender.
Kiki has combos, sure. So do a lot of other creatures. Why not ban them? (Like Hermit Druid..!)
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
I wasn't claiming that TnN was at levels of Hermit Druid brokenness. I will also agree that MoM is power and combo-rific. Tooth and Nail isn't the most broken thing legal in the format by any stretch but its a pretty efficient way to win games with that much mana. Even Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre doesn't win games as quick and is also very weak to bribery.
EDIT: just to weigh in, I don't think Kiki is worth banning. If it was going to happen it would've with pestermite or exarch, which are basically instant wins.
BBBMBC Shirei StyleBBB
URUNiv-Mizzet, Warp WorldURU
BGRKresh the BloodbraidedBGR
That sounds a lot likeProtean Hulk and it was banned for that reason. Tooth and Nail has really moved from that big fun spell that EDH is suppose to be about to one card combo.
Edit: Now that I think about it I cant remember the last time someone cast TaN and we did not have a deal with or die situation
I don't know if I understand your point, you are comparing Tooth and Nail to Coalition Victory as a reason it should be banned? I can think of no defensible reason that Coalition Victory is on the banned list while many other, better cards are not (and shouldn't be).
Banning cards like Coalition Victory, Kiki Jikki, and Tooth and Nail is really bad for the format. One of the biggest appeals of EDH is that you get to play with a wide selection of cards from the entire history of MTG. Once you start banning slow, easily disrupted combos where are you going to stop?
That is exactly the problem with many of these discussions. People lose to a particular card/combo and then they advocate its banning while completely ignoring far superior strategies.
The real problem behind kiki is that he has soooooooooo many things that you add him into for a game win. It isnt just 2-3 cards anymore that are like ohhh he is fairly good with this. He has so many just oh by the way I win cards now. And that pool is only going to keep getting larger.
I am not saying he needs to be banned right now... I am just saying that we might need to start talking about the possibility of it sometime in the future.
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I don't mean this come off as an attack, but that seems like fear-mongering. If anything, I think we should be talking about what could come off of the banned list, not what will potentially go on it.