Quote from HammyI always see people complaining about really long combos, could someone please show me one? And as a side note if there is infact a combo that takes 45 min, why would you ever not concede in the first 2 min or so?
Quote from Waiting in the WeedsJust because it's used in a combo, doesn't mean it's ONLY used in a combo. Palinchron pays for itself, it's almost a free 4/5 flyer, with a bounce effect. It's awesome, and i'd play it in mono-blue. Same goes for power artifact- what if i just want to use it for my Tower of Calamities? It sounds like you just have a problem with combos in general- i don't know if that's actually you're opinion and you're just trying to play devil's advocate or not, but whatever. When the day comes that every deck is running Palinchron infinite combo or anti-Palinchron combo: I'll eat my hat. Whereas if i was able to run Kukosho, suddenly i'd see a lot more decks that have destroy black/flying creatures, or counter black spells.
Quote from JimboStorm. Always freaking storm. They need to create an absolutely massive storm count because the life totals in EDH are so high - a storm count of 20 just to take out one person. tendrils of agony is one hell of a win condition, but it takes foreeeeever to kill a table with just that.
While they're doing this, they're playing fast mana, drawing cards, and tutoring, so a good part of their turn is taken up in shuffling, counting how much mana is floating, and how many spells they've played. Alternatively you can run something wierd, like Niv Mizzet, the Firemind or Underworld dreams as your win con while cycling through draw 7's like Windfall, winds of change, and time spiral.
Quote from ÆthergineerThe Aperture Science Center would like to remind you that the internet isn't a competition, but if it was, you would be winning.
Quote from BladefaustusAmen to you.... you brilliant, brilliant person.
Quote from SyphonIf you weren't male, I'd ask you to marry me.
Quote from Waiting in the Weeds
No offense, but if you can't see his ability's application in a 100 card deck, i don't know what to tell you.
Quote from Horseshoe_HermitNongreenness is precisely the lack of greenness. Nongreen things are all and only those which fail to be green. What is green can't be nongreen.
Quote from u-579..., but mass removal makes this not never really have a chance.
Quote from AlanexryI kinda wish that all the stupid spells that kill every single permanent on the field to be banned, like Jokelhaups and Decree of Annihilation. Stupid cards are so annoying and ruin the game.
Quote from JimboHulk becomes a fill in the blanks card for any number of creature based win combos; if you find one or two potential pieces, it gets easier and easier to win off just one trigger.
Quote from SapioMaticKokusho seems pretty underpowered. I don't think it does anything that is actually powerful. I mean, gaining like 30 life is ok, but still not terribly impressive. Each opponent losing 5 is pretty mediocre. Decks that are competitive all do something actually powerful instead of draining a ton of life. Compared to infinite combos and time stretch and such, Kokusho seems lackluster at best.
In 1v1 he is basically a joke, and quite a bit worse than BSA (which sucks).
Compare him to ANY titan. The only one that may be worse is the black one. Maybe. I agree with RedPanda that it actually sounds fun to play Kokusho wars. And honestly, I will allow anyone who wants to play any number of cards that drain 5 from each opp at the starting cost of 4BB and 1B+ after. Not very exciting.
@Viperesque: Why would a green player scoop in response?
Quote from JimboProtean hulk combo - there are a couple ways to go about this.
body snatcher + carrion feeder + kiki jiki, mirror breaker + karmic guide + pestermite is one.
Hulk dies, get snatcher + feeder, sac snatcher reanimating hulk, sac hulk, get karmic guide, get hulk, sac hulk, get pestermite.
That's *a* one shot kill. There are many, you can do this in R/G/B by going
Hulk + Body Snatcher + Carrion Feeder + Kiki Jiki + phyrexian delver + skirk prospector + Lightning crafter
Or you can just manage it over a few turns entirely in G/W by going
Hulk + Karmic Guide + sac outlet/Mirror Entity + saffi Eriksdotter + reveillark + Nasty ETB/goes to GY trigger creature
There's plenty of mixing and matching available and you can keep the combo trimmed to 3 colors instant table kill as long as you've got black and green - basically, you need a reanimation creater (karmic guide, body snatcher, phyrexian delver) for a triggers, a sac outlet (carrion feeder, viscera seer, and I think there's room for a 2CMC one in the combo), another reanimation effect (reveillark, body double, kiki-jiki, mirror breaker) + something to wipe the table with (mogg fanatic, pestermite, archon of justice, etc.)
You can easily fish out the combo, and many of the pieces are generic and good in the first place. It's not like you need to fill your deck with janky hulk combo only cards. Hulk becomes a fill in the blanks card for any number of creature based win combos; if you find one or two potential pieces, it gets easier and easier to win off just one trigger. Lark goes infinite, it just requires 4 other cards - 2 for reanimation and a sac outlet. Hulk dying is those other cards. It's similar to stuff like fastbond + crucible of worlds - there are a huge number of ways to win as long as you've got a mana free method of saccing lands, not simply something stupid and easy that a newb could do like strip mine. You can deck all of your opponents with a cephalid coliseum or shock them to death with a barbarian ring. If you want to gain life, you can add nomad stadium, kabira crossroads, or zuran orb. Note that the only card that's really unusual and not very playable in that particular combo is the zuran orb. Fastbond and Hulk are the sort of card that greases the engine of a deck, making all your other cards so much better, not unlike Necro.
Quote from OgrefootRegarding Stardust - If cost is a valid reason to ban cards why is Juzam Djinn legal? Why is Workshop legal? Why are cards from P3K legal? Seems inconsistent to me.
Quote from Waiting in the Weeds
But the fact that it's a creature means it can be abused so hard the card will rip. Like viperesque said, if he's in one deck, suddenly the game becomes about him. Have him out and you clone him? With 4 people playing you just dealt 30 damage and gained 30 life. Oh no!1! He's in the graveyard! Too bad black doesn't have a single card that gets stuff from graveyards.
Quote from Waiting in the WeedsAnd green would scoop, because he has almost no answers or ways to deal with kukosho. Plummeting him would just make the opponent happy you did his dirty work. And when you're trying to aggro, fighting a lifegaining opponent is an uphill battle.
Quote from SapioMatic...in multiplayer there are a ton of opponents that can also deal with Kokusho... it can't be that difficult to beat Kokusho.
Quote from StardustThat said, we've got a lot more playable graveyard hate these days, most notably Relic of Progenitus. I personally feel it's probably safe to take him off, but I just wanted to make it clear that he's not on the banned list because he's too powerful.
Quote from killem2I haven't played edh before a few weeks ago, how long has Kosh been on the banned list?
Quote from fzianErr.... While I agree that Exsanguinate is not as good as Kokusho, the Evening Star, I don't see how would a green deck scoop against Kokusho My playgroup actually allows Kokusho, the Evening Star and my Omnath, Locus of Mana has never scooped against it. Whether it is tutoring for Arashi, Duplicant, Cloudthresher, etc. followed by graveyard-hate, Kokusho doesn't actually bother me over much. Note that there were lots of time where Kokusho was relegated to guard duty while Omnath and its minions stormed in for lots of damage.
Basically, my point is: -
Kokusho, the Evening Star is usually a better card than Exsanguinate, if only for its versatilityNotwithstanding point 1., it should probably not be banned even in multiplayer games. Its "natural" powers are not substantially enhanced or subverted by the rules and nature of the format -- unlike say, Biorhythm, Coalition Victory, et. al.
If Rofellos could get another chance (at least until it was banned again), then Kokusho sure as hell should be able to see the light of day again.