Are you honestly saying this is the only efficent way to fill a graveyard, get real. There are cards that auto dump 1/2 or more of your library, no randomness.
There's cards that make your library your graveyard...It comes down to cost and viability/effectiveness.
It's 2 mama and in any deck that runs it deserves to get hit by my force of will t2 in any deck I ever see it in Druid.dec or not. I would pitch my free counter turn 2 along with whatever other good card I wanted to play later ....on turn 2 ......as a Combo deck ..... Becuase I'm fairly certain my win % would go up in that scenario in a multiplayer game..... Just think about that now . Now if it is a dredge deck hmm what do dredge players play o that's right reanimate spells. Druid.dec takes it a bit further it says shallow grave win or tutor pass turn silence shallow grave win. Hermit Druid is evil hell spawn of Satan
A friendly reminder to keep the discussion on the banlist, the cars, and the arguments made about both. Some of the posts here are getting a little personal, which does not help the discussion.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Time walks untap your lands to walk again, and give your dudes haste. Chaining walks is not much different than E witness +shard + warp. Warps are like palinchron, free, they just dont look it.
It's win condition is the same as combo decks, an arbitrary amount of extra turns that prevents interaction.
lol what? E Witness + Shard + Warp is infinite turns. At most, you get to take like 4 or 5 turns with Edric. That is not arbitrary. There is no combo there.
What's arbitrary is your rule set when it comes to what constitutes aggro.
Vintage is a fundamentally different format being able to play 4 of for answers allows the fast mana to be more balanced (chalice for 0 for example) They still have to restrict a number of cards and a number of the cards you mentioned are all easily answered in vintage due to the above mentioned FOUR of's. Answers are more abundant in that format because they have access to more good answers while still restricting (most) of the above. This makes tutors even STRONGER in edh than vintage due to the singleton nature of your combo cards already existing in vintage (Vault key) and playing against slower decks.
What's your point? Of course the gameplay is different. It's multiplayer singleton. But we're using the same base of Vintage-legal cards. Explain to me how that makes the format based on anything but Vintage.
So unban timevault so my twiddles can be time walks. You just have to discourage playing vault with key AMIRITE? .......
If it weren't for Time Vault being $300 with no excuse not to play it in every single deck, I would be all for unbanning it. It's a pretty cool card when you're not using it with Key.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
So unban timevault so my twiddles can be time walks. You just have to discourage playing vault with key AMIRITE? .......
Time Vault would probably be fine, just like Moxen would be fine, if it cost a dollar. It has a lot more ways of going off than just Key, though, so I don't know how a lot of people would react to that. But the primary reason it and other cards like it are banned are the huge price tag in combination with their power level.
Granted, Vault has a LOT more cards it combos with than most other cheap two-card combos. I wouldn't be against banning it for the same reason I'm not against banning any other strictly combo card, but I'm not sure how the RC would see it. Plus, the card is kind of fun when you're not using it with untap effects. I play Magosi in control decks all the time.
Also, papa_funk, if you read this at all, I really appreciate your responses in the past few pages. I'm really glad to see someone on the RC speaking to the community about this sort of thing, and I wholeheartedly agree with pretty much everything you've said.
... The only thing this statement proves is we will never agree ... Not even sure how to respond to this... you would want possibly the best combo card ever printed to be legal...
lol what? E Witness + Shard + Warp is infinite turns. At most, you get to take like 4 or 5 turns with Edric. That is not arbitrary. There is no combo there.
What's arbitrary is your rule set when it comes to what constitutes aggro.
If you take 2-3 bonus turns with edric you will kill them by recurring throng while not being "Infinite" you will kill the entire table by taking back to back to back turns for 7+ turns. Being literally infinite is no different from taking every remaining turn in the game for that many turns. Being infinite turns just means people scoop instead of watching for 5-7 turns in a row while you kill them.
What's your point? Of course the gameplay is different. It's multiplayer singleton. But we're using the same base of Vintage-legal cards. Explain to me how that makes the format based on anything but Vintage.
1) The "objective" of this format (as defined by the RC) is not to "win at all costs"
2) Money is a factor for banning.
3) There are bannings. (Besides ante cards >.>)
4) No 4 ofs.
5) Multiplayer
6) A free spell you always start the game with and can be cast over and over.
7) 99 card decks are fundamentally different from 60 card decks, if you can't see that there is a problem.
If you really need elaboration on these things then you can look them up. It really isn't hard to see how massive the difference is between the formats and calling EDH 99 card vintage couldn't be farther from the truth.
EDH is a unique format and should be treated as such.
... The only thing this statement proves is we will never agree ... Not even sure how to respond to this... you would want possibly the best combo card ever printed to be legal...
Clearly we won't. I understand the format to be a social, casual one, whilst you apparently want it to be competitively oriented which was never the intention of it.
Combo cards should not be banned solely for being combo cards, no matter how powerful the combo is, because including those combos is a choice that most playgroups will not approve of. There have to be other reasons, such as Time Vault's prohibitively high price and ubiquity that will turn people away from the format simply by seeing it isn't banned.
There was a question a few responses back about how often Hermit Druid actually shows up in a local meta:
I'm not sure what kind of communities other people live in, but I think the question gets skewed by how many people you personally know who play EDH, as opposed to how long you've been playing. For example, there are about 5 other people I routinely play with, and one of them has a Hermit Druid deck. But that doesn't mean 16% of EDH players own or play Hermit Druid. And I'd been playing for about 5 years; the Hermit Druid deck didn't show up until about 6 months ago. This is partly why I was surprised when papa_funk said that people play it for the basic land search/dredge effect... I've only ever seen it as a combo piece. I just don't think any of that is relevant to the annoyance it causes once it shows up.
I think it's also misleading to argue about how powerful the card is.
I can absolutely put together a deck to beat it; you need a deck with at least 6 pieces of spell based graveyard hate (stuff like Ravenous Trap, Cremate, or Purify the Grave), plenty of free/cheap counterspells, a beefy general or combo of your own to actually win the game (Oona, Damia, or Thraximunder all have good options), and then plenty of tutors to make sure you find the cards you need when you need them.
The problem is, once you have that deck put together, you have a pretty much equally obnoxious and miserable combo-control deck. I don't think playing that style of EDH is fun, and I don't think most other players think it's fun either.
I don't know how EDH plays at everyone else's play group goes, but I would surprised if the committee banned this card. It would completely fly in the face of recent unbans such as Lion's Eye Diamond of World-Gorge Dragon. In my honest opinon, there was absolutely no reason to remove either card off the ban list, but then again, my philosophy for unbanning would be to promote diversity, or at least give EDH decks a potential switch for their 61st/62nd/ect card.
Heritage Druid has a lot things it has to dodge in muiltipler edh. Every non-hurricane wrath gets it, graveyard hate is a very common thing in all colors, has to be tutored for, and can be interacted with. Will there be games that he wins by himself? Sure, but that could be said about several cards in the format.
If one were to argue his position as a resource finder, without the purpose to combo, I might be more inclined to look at it again. I know this isn't sound logic, but is there any reason it should be left alone? Yes, you need to build your deck around it, but 2-card combos have been banned before (even LED and WD needed other cards to work), and this card is essentially a 1-card combo.
I think the guy who's routinely targeted by the person landing turn 3 Lord of Extinction (with haste and trample) would disagree with you, MRH, and your dismissive comment about how little it matters when someone get's one-shotted in the first 4 turns. If that person get's excluded from the game that ends up going a significant portion of time, the damage has been done. Therefore, it doesn't really matter if the person playing Hermit Druid ends up winning the match or gets ganged up on. The damage is done.
How many cards put 50% or more of your library into your graveyard on turn 3? Oath of Druid (conditionally and with drawbacks) and this guy are about it. Hermit Druid is unique.
Repeatedly arguing, over and over, that "this effect can be done with another higher mana cost card" or "the player can move onto a different combo if Hermit Druid is banned" consistently ignores the fact that this similar effect and/or next best combo isn't as fast or consistent at accomplishing that goal. From a purely competitive standpoint, which appears to be how you want to try to rebuke my argument, there reaches a point where the next best thing isn't as dominant. Less than 50% goldfish kills by turn 4 would be my personal opinion on that threshold.
Hermit Druid is the best combo enabler in EDH since Fastbond. Here's why:
Kiki-Jiki/Anger/Necrotic Ooze/Devoted Druid/Nacromeba/Fatestitcher/Dread Return: This is the popular combo version that requires the most deck space to "go off". It's also, in my opinion, the least relevant since it's the most anti-social.
Now let's get into what I think the ACTUAL issue with Hermit Druid is:
1) Life from the Loam: Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, and their interaction with this card post Hermit Druid activation turn this card into access to just about any artifact, creature, or land in your deck. Worse, the only answer is graveyard removal or exile effects since all destroy effects are negated by just recurring whatever piece you kill.
Like winning with Azusa, Crucible, Strip Mine? Just tap Hermit Druid and recur the Life from the Loam it milled. The rest has been done for you. Worried your library is too low on cards and want to take advantage of it? Academy Ruins that Reito Lantern/Soldevi Digger back on top. This is how any game with those cards in the deck will go after Hermit Druid is activated. That's repetitive, consistent, and boring. Worse, none of the cards I just mentioned are deliberately anti-social, so they're more likely to be seen. But the interaction between them and Hermit Druid is horrendously powerful.
2) Karador Ghost Chieftain as your general: I thought Survival of the Fittest was bad with this card. Holy crap Hermit Druid breaks him in half. I've played against people who play Acidic Slime, Reveillark, Saffi, and Mirror Entity, all on those cards' quality alone. I don't really see a problem with them all being in a deck any more than I see a problem with Sliver Queen, Gemhide Sliver, Mana Reflection, and a haste effect being in the same deck. Hermit Druid and Karador make you "oops I win" when Lark and friends are in your deck because he multi-tutors them all at the same time. Even if you don't do that, having access to basically any card in your deck starting on turn 4 and on, with only graveyard removal as an out is bonkers.
3) Recoup and Krosan Reclamation: It doesn't take a particularly brilliant deck builder to realize that, when your deck is in your graveyard and one or both of these cards is/are also there, you can win because of it. "Recoup my Reanimate and target Necrotic Ooze." "Krosan Reclamation my Beacon of Tommorows." It's not hard.
4) Lord of Extinction/Anger/Reanimate: Just Recoup that Reanimate and it turns Hermit Druid into a (slower) 1 card combo than the versions that water their whole deck down with bad cards to increase their turn 3 likeliness. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUILD AROUND HERMIT DRUID TO KILL PEOPLE THE TURN HE'S TAPPED.
5) Golgari Grave-Troll/Anger: Requires a high creature count, but still kills a player per turn just by turning Hermit Druid sideways.
So what I've done above is list off 5 overpowered examples of what can be done with reasonable, social cards when you add Hermit Druid to a deck. The ease of comboing with the card reminds me of the time period where Fastbond was legal, which was just about the easiest card ever to combo off with. Here's the thing: not all those combos when infinite or killed the table immediately. What they did was put the person so far ahead, so early in the game that it didn't matter. That's what Hermit Druid can do.
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This format is the only reason I still own Magic cards.
I think the guy who's routinely targeted by the person landing turn 3 Lord of Extinction (with haste and trample) would disagree with you, MRH, and your dismissive comment about how little it matters when someone get's one-shotted in the first 4 turns. If that person get's excluded from the game that ends up going a significant portion of time, the damage has been done. Therefore, it doesn't really matter if the person playing Hermit Druid ends up winning the match or gets ganged up on. The damage is done.
How many cards put 50% or more of your library into your graveyard on turn 3? Oath of Druid (conditionally and with drawbacks) and this guy are about it. Hermit Druid is unique.
Repeatedly arguing, over and over, that "this effect can be done with another higher mana cost card" or "the player can move onto a different combo if Hermit Druid is banned" consistently ignores the fact that this similar effect and/or next best combo isn't as fast or consistent at accomplishing that goal. From a purely competitive standpoint, which appears to be how you want to try to rebuke my argument, there reaches a point where the next best thing isn't as dominant. Less than 50% goldfish kills by turn 4 would be my personal opinion on that threshold.
Hermit Druid is the best combo enabler in EDH since Fastbond. Here's why:
Kiki-Jiki/Anger/Necrotic Ooze/Devoted Druid/Nacromeba/Fatestitcher/Dread Return: This is the popular combo version that requires the most deck space to "go off". It's also, in my opinion, the least relevant since it's the most anti-social.
Now let's get into what I think the ACTUAL issue with Hermit Druid is:
1) Life from the Loam: Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, and their interaction with this card post Hermit Druid activation turn this card into access to just about any artifact, creature, or land in your deck. Worse, the only answer is graveyard removal or exile effects since all destroy effects are negated by just recurring whatever piece you kill.
Like winning with Azusa, Crucible, Strip Mine? Just tap Hermit Druid and recur the Life from the Loam it milled. The rest has been done for you. Worried your library is too low on cards and want to take advantage of it? Academy Ruins that Reito Lantern/Soldevi Digger back on top. This is how any game with those cards in the deck will go after Hermit Druid is activated. That's repetitive, consistent, and boring. Worse, none of the cards I just mentioned are deliberately anti-social, so they're more likely to be seen. But the interaction between them and Hermit Druid is horrendously powerful.
2) Karador Ghost Chieftain as your general: I thought Survival of the Fittest was bad with this card. Holy crap Hermit Druid breaks him in half. I've played against people who play Acidic Slime, Reveillark, Saffi, and Mirror Entity, all on those cards' quality alone. I don't really see a problem with them all being in a deck any more than I see a problem with Sliver Queen, Gemhide Sliver, Mana Reflection, and a haste effect being in the same deck. Hermit Druid and Karador make you "oops I win" when Lark and friends are in your deck because he multi-tutors them all at the same time. Even if you don't do that, having access to basically any card in your deck starting on turn 4 and on, with only graveyard removal as an out is bonkers.
3) Recoup and Krosan Reclamation: It doesn't take a particularly brilliant deck builder to realize that, when your deck is in your graveyard and one or both of these cards is/are also there, you can win because of it. "Recoup my Reanimate and target Necrotic Ooze." "Krosan Reclamation my Beacon of Tommorows." It's not hard.
4) Lord of Extinction/Anger/Reanimate: Just Recoup that Reanimate and it turns Hermit Druid into a (slower) 1 card combo than the versions that water their whole deck down with bad cards to increase their turn 3 likeliness. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUILD AROUND HERMIT DRUID TO KILL PEOPLE THE TURN HE'S TAPPED.
5) Golgari Grave-Troll/Anger: Requires a high creature count, but still kills a player per turn just by turning Hermit Druid sideways.
So what I've done above is list off 5 overpowered examples of what can be done with reasonable, social cards when you add Hermit Druid to a deck. The ease of comboing with the card reminds me of the time period where Fastbond was legal, which was just about the easiest card ever to combo off with. Here's the thing: not all those combos when infinite or killed the table immediately. What they did was put the person so far ahead, so early in the game that it didn't matter. That's what Hermit Druid can do.
This is a well thought out and constructive critism of a non 5c degenerate usage of Druid. The issue with it is that every instance immediately folds to graveyard hate. That being said, I like what you pointed out about one player sitting out early after the remaining people deal with the Druid player.
The thing about taking one person out of the game really early like that is it creates a situation even more direct than winning with fast infinite combos that will generally get the rest of the players to FORCE the offender to remove said cards from their deck. Especially if the game goes on for a while and the one person who died early ends up being bored for a while.
It will happen once, and then the nature of it being a Social format prevents it from happening again.
The thing about taking one person out of the game really early like that is it creates a situation even more direct than winning with fast infinite combos that will generally get the rest of the players to FORCE the offender to remove said cards from their deck. Especially if the game goes on for a while and the one person who died early ends up being bored for a while.
It will happen once, and then the nature of it being a Social format prevents it from happening again.
The nature of the social contract should prevent 5c Druid and Stax decks in an unknown meta, but that doesn't seem to be working out too well.
This is a well thought out and constructive critism of a non 5c degenerate usage of Druid. The issue with it is that every instance immediately folds to graveyard hate. That being said, I like what you pointed out about one player sitting out early after the remaining people deal with the Druid player.
Yes, he makes many excellent points. This is one of the best arguments I've heard for banning him.
For me, it comes down to what kind of format I want. Allowing Hermit Druid is in a sense saying that you should be expected to run some cheap spot removal and cheap graveyard hate, or otherwise other forms of disruption that work.
To me, this has always been a no-brainer, and I include enough of these in all of my decks to ensure combos like Hermit Druid don't have an easy time killing me. However, some people, I would say the more casual among us, seem to prefer a much slower format, focused more around mass removal and bombs, with not much else. This segment seems to dislike things such as graveyard hate and disruption because it prevents them from being able to fit some of their favorite bombs in their decks.
Hermit Druid forces the issue because it is powerful enough to walk all over the more casual crowd, but it isn't difficult to stop if everyone simply commits to running a suite of spot removal, graveyard hate, and disruption in all of their decks. Players who enjoy building powerful decks take no issue with including these things, since in most other formats they are reasonable and expected if you plan to win consistently.
If we can agree that in a metagame that includes a sizable amount of cheap spot removal, graveyard hate, and cheap disruption, Hermit Druid isn't a huge threat, then it really comes down to whether you believe it is reasonable to be expected to run these things if you want to win. Does anyone disagree here?
Here are some of the cards I commonly include in my decks that Hermit Druid hates to see, but are very useful against most decks, so they're not wasted spots.
If every deck ran a reasonable number of the above cards, Hermit Druid would really be fighting an uphill battle. They're all good cards too - they're just not flashy. If you support a format without Hermit Druid, you're supporting a more uniform format where cards such as these are less important, so keep that in mind.
... The only thing this statement proves is we will never agree ... Not even sure how to respond to this... you would want possibly the best combo card ever printed to be legal...
Considering that most of the combo cards ever printed are legal... yeah. If you really want to build a broken combo deck, nobody is stopping you, but good luck having people to play with after a while.
If you take 2-3 bonus turns with edric you will kill them by recurring throng while not being "Infinite" you will kill the entire table by taking back to back to back turns for 7+ turns. Being literally infinite is no different from taking every remaining turn in the game for that many turns. Being infinite turns just means people scoop instead of watching for 5-7 turns in a row while you kill them.
Again. This makes it not aggro how? You can't complain about aggro sucking and then dismiss one of the best decks in the format (which actually happens to be an aggro deck) just because you have some beef with taking extra turns. It's exactly the same as taking a bunch of attack steps, only blue.
Plus, you know... a horde of 1-drops isn't very scary if people play an appropriate amount of removal. Don't even try to tell me that Flying Men are on your **** list.
If you really need elaboration on these things then you can look them up. It really isn't hard to see how massive the difference is between the formats and calling EDH 99 card vintage couldn't be farther from the truth.
You are being extremely intellectually dishonest. I never called it 99 card vintage. I said it was based on Vintage. You know, being that they based it on Vintage.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
When Undone said that Hermit Druid was a "Vintage deck," he was just saying that it was more in the spirit of Vintage (a competitive and sometimes combo-heavy format) than in the spirit of Commander.
When Audiox said that Commander was a "Vintage format," he meant that aside from a custom banned list, we are playing with the Vintage-legal card pool.
You guys are just arguing semantics at completely cross purposes. I'm not sure you actually disagree about anything.
@Giodante - (I'm on my iPhone so I'm not even going to try and quote the relevant parts) I agree with your assessment of Druid. I'll be the first to admit that I've only seen him once, and that was in a 5c T3 combo deck. A deck like that doesn't even bother me, because I don't have the resources ($) to build a deck that can go toe to toe reliably. My decks are more equipped to stand up with fair Druid builds, and I've seen graveyard strategies increase so much in the last year that I naturally pack hate. So Druid doesn't bother me, he'll either race me or lose a big chunk of the graveyard.
I think the guy who's routinely targeted by the person landing turn 3 Lord of Extinction (with haste and trample) would disagree with you, MRH, and your dismissive comment about how little it matters when someone get's one-shotted in the first 4 turns. If that person get's excluded from the game that ends up going a significant portion of time, the damage has been done. Therefore, it doesn't really matter if the person playing Hermit Druid ends up winning the match or gets ganged up on. The damage is done.
Repeatedly arguing, over and over, that "this effect can be done with another higher mana cost card" or "the player can move onto a different combo if Hermit Druid is banned" consistently ignores the fact that this similar effect and/or next best combo isn't as fast or consistent at accomplishing that goal. From a purely competitive standpoint, which appears to be how you want to try to rebuke my argument, there reaches a point where the next best thing isn't as dominant. Less than 50% goldfish kills by turn 4 would be my personal opinion on that threshold.
I understand what you are saying and agree. If someone gets knocked out early it hurts them worse than a guy comboing the whole table. It should not happen much, but part of the issue is how does it happen to the same person more tha once? I would never play against that deck again, and would encourage others to do the same. You just cannot stop people like that with a ban list.
I am NOT trying to agruge a competetive standpoint, I am promoting social interaction. Make your game the game you want to play.
All this being said, I dont think Druid gets banned, but if he does I won't shed one tear, I never play him in any of my decks.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Most of the things I have said about this card have been beaten to death. That being said people need to get by this dillusion that
You just cannot stop people like that with a ban list.
It's blatantly wrong constructed formats are proof of this.
It's not an apples to apples analogy though (but not quite apples to oranges). Constructed formats have a very clear goal, which has been stated by Wizards: ban as few cards as possible, but ban whatever is necessary to keep the field diverse(ish) with multiple different viable archtypes. This is to ensure people don't get frustrated with playing competitively, which leads to lower attendance, which leads to lower sales. Sales and profit, being the end goal. EDH on the other hand, has a similar concern (keep players happy so they'll keep playing. It's end, however, is that players can play a social game without the stigma that comes with competitive formats with prizes on the line.
As much as I hate to do it I agree with blue. EDH is like art it freedom of expression and to pigeon hole people with a ban list would be a travestie. I have said many time that there is always a way around most any card and unless I am missing something (which is entirely possible) Hemit Druid can be stopped with a leyline or tormods crypt or any number of graveyard removal.
Most of the things I have said about this card have been beaten to death. That being said people need to get by this dillusion that
It's blatantly wrong constructed formats are proof of this.
Not at all. The goal of constructed formats is to win by any means possible, so presumably all players are going to be trying to abuse everything. That isn't the case with Commander, which is a social format.
You also have to consider that a lot more cards are "broken" in Commander than are in Vintage/Legacy due to the nature of the format. Griselbrand isn't particularly noteworthy in Vintage, yet it's balls-to-the-wall busted in Commander. So are cards like Tooth and Nail. Large casting cost isn't a prohibitive restriction nearly as much as it is in other formats, because life totals are higher and games go on longer.
It is impossible to ban every abuseable card in Commander without ruining the format.
Most of the things I have said about this card have been beaten to death. That being said people need to get by this dillusion that "You just cannot stop people like that with a ban list."
It's blatantly wrong constructed formats are proof of this.
Of course you can in a strictly competetive environment, but you cannot stop those types of people from breaking EDH, where the spirt should be to have a good time, and win as the secondary goal.
EDH should not be T1 vs T1 decks for prizes that last 5 mins. That is the realm of Legacy et al. I think you knew what I meant and chose to ignore it.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Not at all. The goal of constructed formats is to win by any means possible, so presumably all players are going to be trying to abuse everything. That isn't the case with Commander, which is a social format.
You also have to consider that a lot more cards are "broken" in Commander than are in Vintage/Legacy due to the nature of the format. Griselbrand isn't particularly noteworthy in Vintage, yet it's balls-to-the-wall busted in Commander. So are cards like Tooth and Nail. Large casting cost isn't a prohibitive restriction nearly as much as it is in other formats, because life totals are higher and games go on longer.
It is impossible to ban every abuseable card in Commander without ruining the format.
Oath -> Grisselbanned is a deck. I am however aware that some cards are just better in EDH. That being said anything that is a core card for a combo archtype in VINTAGE should probably be banned (Oath for example). Oath is slightly (only slightly) less broken in EDH due to only having singletons of forbidden orchard and oath while druid (A slightly weaker 1 card combo) gets slightly better.
You don't need to ban "every" abusive card, only the MOST abusive cards (Oath, druid, adnauseam, power artifact) and there you go 4-5 cards and you instantly add at least a full turn of answers. The next best being about T4-5 and with less disruption in addition to being vulnerable to remove and removes all but tooth and nail as 1 card combos. The next best also loses (comically) to spot removal, which all of the above do not.
EDH should not be T1 vs T1 decks for prizes that last 5 mins. That is the realm of Legacy et al. I think you knew what I meant and chose to ignore it.
Again I feel people like you have no idea what they are talking about. Legacy is by far the most diverse and interactive format the only deck that has games lasting 5 minutes is belcher, which is something you build with that intent. (and isn't that great of a deck) Tons of people seem to think this way and it needs to go away as it's again blatantly wrong.
Yes, he makes many excellent points. This is one of the best arguments I've heard for banning him.
For me, it comes down to what kind of format I want. Allowing Hermit Druid is in a sense saying that you should be expected to run some cheap spot removal and cheap graveyard hate, or otherwise other forms of disruption that work.
To me, this has always been a no-brainer, and I include enough of these in all of my decks to ensure combos like Hermit Druid don't have an easy time killing me. However, some people, I would say the more casual among us, seem to prefer a much slower format, focused more around mass removal and bombs, with not much else. This segment seems to dislike things such as graveyard hate and disruption because it prevents them from being able to fit some of their favorite bombs in their decks.
Hermit Druid forces the issue because it is powerful enough to walk all over the more casual crowd, but it isn't difficult to stop if everyone simply commits to running a suite of spot removal, graveyard hate, and disruption in all of their decks. Players who enjoy building powerful decks take no issue with including these things, since in most other formats they are reasonable and expected if you plan to win consistently.
If we can agree that in a metagame that includes a sizable amount of cheap spot removal, graveyard hate, and cheap disruption, Hermit Druid isn't a huge threat, then it really comes down to whether you believe it is reasonable to be expected to run these things if you want to win. Does anyone disagree here?
Here are some of the cards I commonly include in my decks that Hermit Druid hates to see, but are very useful against most decks, so they're not wasted spots.
If every deck ran a reasonable number of the above cards, Hermit Druid would really be fighting an uphill battle. They're all good cards too - they're just not flashy. If you support a format without Hermit Druid, you're supporting a more uniform format where cards such as these are less important, so keep that in mind.
I'm not sure if HD should be banned or not, but have you even played with or against 5cHD ? The deck has been tuned to deal with your long list of cards every game. This is why I made the assertion most people haven't played against or piloted this deck. It far more resilient that you give it credit for. It consistently goes off turn 3 or 4 even against disruption. It was developed that way. It wouldn't be the best combo deck in the format if it was so easily disrupted.
There's cards that make your library your graveyard...It comes down to cost and viability/effectiveness.
Morality Shift , Traumatize and Mirror-Mad Phantasm are pretty good as well but have too high of a casting cost or take too long to set up.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
lol what? E Witness + Shard + Warp is infinite turns. At most, you get to take like 4 or 5 turns with Edric. That is not arbitrary. There is no combo there.
What's arbitrary is your rule set when it comes to what constitutes aggro.
What's your point? Of course the gameplay is different. It's multiplayer singleton. But we're using the same base of Vintage-legal cards. Explain to me how that makes the format based on anything but Vintage.
If it weren't for Time Vault being $300 with no excuse not to play it in every single deck, I would be all for unbanning it. It's a pretty cool card when you're not using it with Key.
Time Vault would probably be fine, just like Moxen would be fine, if it cost a dollar. It has a lot more ways of going off than just Key, though, so I don't know how a lot of people would react to that. But the primary reason it and other cards like it are banned are the huge price tag in combination with their power level.
Granted, Vault has a LOT more cards it combos with than most other cheap two-card combos. I wouldn't be against banning it for the same reason I'm not against banning any other strictly combo card, but I'm not sure how the RC would see it. Plus, the card is kind of fun when you're not using it with untap effects. I play Magosi in control decks all the time.
Also, papa_funk, if you read this at all, I really appreciate your responses in the past few pages. I'm really glad to see someone on the RC speaking to the community about this sort of thing, and I wholeheartedly agree with pretty much everything you've said.
... The only thing this statement proves is we will never agree ... Not even sure how to respond to this... you would want possibly the best combo card ever printed to be legal...
If you take 2-3 bonus turns with edric you will kill them by recurring throng while not being "Infinite" you will kill the entire table by taking back to back to back turns for 7+ turns. Being literally infinite is no different from taking every remaining turn in the game for that many turns. Being infinite turns just means people scoop instead of watching for 5-7 turns in a row while you kill them.
1) The "objective" of this format (as defined by the RC) is not to "win at all costs"
2) Money is a factor for banning.
3) There are bannings. (Besides ante cards >.>)
4) No 4 ofs.
5) Multiplayer
6) A free spell you always start the game with and can be cast over and over.
7) 99 card decks are fundamentally different from 60 card decks, if you can't see that there is a problem.
If you really need elaboration on these things then you can look them up. It really isn't hard to see how massive the difference is between the formats and calling EDH 99 card vintage couldn't be farther from the truth.
EDH is a unique format and should be treated as such.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Clearly we won't. I understand the format to be a social, casual one, whilst you apparently want it to be competitively oriented which was never the intention of it.
Combo cards should not be banned solely for being combo cards, no matter how powerful the combo is, because including those combos is a choice that most playgroups will not approve of. There have to be other reasons, such as Time Vault's prohibitively high price and ubiquity that will turn people away from the format simply by seeing it isn't banned.
I'm not sure what kind of communities other people live in, but I think the question gets skewed by how many people you personally know who play EDH, as opposed to how long you've been playing. For example, there are about 5 other people I routinely play with, and one of them has a Hermit Druid deck. But that doesn't mean 16% of EDH players own or play Hermit Druid. And I'd been playing for about 5 years; the Hermit Druid deck didn't show up until about 6 months ago. This is partly why I was surprised when papa_funk said that people play it for the basic land search/dredge effect... I've only ever seen it as a combo piece. I just don't think any of that is relevant to the annoyance it causes once it shows up.
I think it's also misleading to argue about how powerful the card is.
I can absolutely put together a deck to beat it; you need a deck with at least 6 pieces of spell based graveyard hate (stuff like Ravenous Trap, Cremate, or Purify the Grave), plenty of free/cheap counterspells, a beefy general or combo of your own to actually win the game (Oona, Damia, or Thraximunder all have good options), and then plenty of tutors to make sure you find the cards you need when you need them.
The problem is, once you have that deck put together, you have a pretty much equally obnoxious and miserable combo-control deck. I don't think playing that style of EDH is fun, and I don't think most other players think it's fun either.
Heritage Druid has a lot things it has to dodge in muiltipler edh. Every non-hurricane wrath gets it, graveyard hate is a very common thing in all colors, has to be tutored for, and can be interacted with. Will there be games that he wins by himself? Sure, but that could be said about several cards in the format.
If one were to argue his position as a resource finder, without the purpose to combo, I might be more inclined to look at it again. I know this isn't sound logic, but is there any reason it should be left alone? Yes, you need to build your deck around it, but 2-card combos have been banned before (even LED and WD needed other cards to work), and this card is essentially a 1-card combo.
My 2 cents.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
How many cards put 50% or more of your library into your graveyard on turn 3? Oath of Druid (conditionally and with drawbacks) and this guy are about it. Hermit Druid is unique.
Repeatedly arguing, over and over, that "this effect can be done with another higher mana cost card" or "the player can move onto a different combo if Hermit Druid is banned" consistently ignores the fact that this similar effect and/or next best combo isn't as fast or consistent at accomplishing that goal. From a purely competitive standpoint, which appears to be how you want to try to rebuke my argument, there reaches a point where the next best thing isn't as dominant. Less than 50% goldfish kills by turn 4 would be my personal opinion on that threshold.
Hermit Druid is the best combo enabler in EDH since Fastbond. Here's why:
Kiki-Jiki/Anger/Necrotic Ooze/Devoted Druid/Nacromeba/Fatestitcher/Dread Return: This is the popular combo version that requires the most deck space to "go off". It's also, in my opinion, the least relevant since it's the most anti-social.
Now let's get into what I think the ACTUAL issue with Hermit Druid is:
1) Life from the Loam: Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, and their interaction with this card post Hermit Druid activation turn this card into access to just about any artifact, creature, or land in your deck. Worse, the only answer is graveyard removal or exile effects since all destroy effects are negated by just recurring whatever piece you kill.
Like winning with Azusa, Crucible, Strip Mine? Just tap Hermit Druid and recur the Life from the Loam it milled. The rest has been done for you. Worried your library is too low on cards and want to take advantage of it? Academy Ruins that Reito Lantern/Soldevi Digger back on top. This is how any game with those cards in the deck will go after Hermit Druid is activated. That's repetitive, consistent, and boring. Worse, none of the cards I just mentioned are deliberately anti-social, so they're more likely to be seen. But the interaction between them and Hermit Druid is horrendously powerful.
2) Karador Ghost Chieftain as your general: I thought Survival of the Fittest was bad with this card. Holy crap Hermit Druid breaks him in half. I've played against people who play Acidic Slime, Reveillark, Saffi, and Mirror Entity, all on those cards' quality alone. I don't really see a problem with them all being in a deck any more than I see a problem with Sliver Queen, Gemhide Sliver, Mana Reflection, and a haste effect being in the same deck. Hermit Druid and Karador make you "oops I win" when Lark and friends are in your deck because he multi-tutors them all at the same time. Even if you don't do that, having access to basically any card in your deck starting on turn 4 and on, with only graveyard removal as an out is bonkers.
3) Recoup and Krosan Reclamation: It doesn't take a particularly brilliant deck builder to realize that, when your deck is in your graveyard and one or both of these cards is/are also there, you can win because of it. "Recoup my Reanimate and target Necrotic Ooze." "Krosan Reclamation my Beacon of Tommorows." It's not hard.
4) Lord of Extinction/Anger/Reanimate: Just Recoup that Reanimate and it turns Hermit Druid into a (slower) 1 card combo than the versions that water their whole deck down with bad cards to increase their turn 3 likeliness. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUILD AROUND HERMIT DRUID TO KILL PEOPLE THE TURN HE'S TAPPED.
5) Golgari Grave-Troll/Anger: Requires a high creature count, but still kills a player per turn just by turning Hermit Druid sideways.
So what I've done above is list off 5 overpowered examples of what can be done with reasonable, social cards when you add Hermit Druid to a deck. The ease of comboing with the card reminds me of the time period where Fastbond was legal, which was just about the easiest card ever to combo off with. Here's the thing: not all those combos when infinite or killed the table immediately. What they did was put the person so far ahead, so early in the game that it didn't matter. That's what Hermit Druid can do.
This is a well thought out and constructive critism of a non 5c degenerate usage of Druid. The issue with it is that every instance immediately folds to graveyard hate. That being said, I like what you pointed out about one player sitting out early after the remaining people deal with the Druid player.
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It will happen once, and then the nature of it being a Social format prevents it from happening again.
The nature of the social contract should prevent 5c Druid and Stax decks in an unknown meta, but that doesn't seem to be working out too well.
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Yes, he makes many excellent points. This is one of the best arguments I've heard for banning him.
For me, it comes down to what kind of format I want. Allowing Hermit Druid is in a sense saying that you should be expected to run some cheap spot removal and cheap graveyard hate, or otherwise other forms of disruption that work.
To me, this has always been a no-brainer, and I include enough of these in all of my decks to ensure combos like Hermit Druid don't have an easy time killing me. However, some people, I would say the more casual among us, seem to prefer a much slower format, focused more around mass removal and bombs, with not much else. This segment seems to dislike things such as graveyard hate and disruption because it prevents them from being able to fit some of their favorite bombs in their decks.
Hermit Druid forces the issue because it is powerful enough to walk all over the more casual crowd, but it isn't difficult to stop if everyone simply commits to running a suite of spot removal, graveyard hate, and disruption in all of their decks. Players who enjoy building powerful decks take no issue with including these things, since in most other formats they are reasonable and expected if you plan to win consistently.
If we can agree that in a metagame that includes a sizable amount of cheap spot removal, graveyard hate, and cheap disruption, Hermit Druid isn't a huge threat, then it really comes down to whether you believe it is reasonable to be expected to run these things if you want to win. Does anyone disagree here?
Here are some of the cards I commonly include in my decks that Hermit Druid hates to see, but are very useful against most decks, so they're not wasted spots.
RED
Lightning Bolt
Flame Slash
Searing Spear
Mizzium Mortars
Incinerate
Volcanic Hammer
Spitebellows
Char
Flame Javelin
Flamebreak
Slagstorm
Volcanic Fallout
Winds of Change
Pyrite Spellbomb
Earthquake
Rolling Earthquake
Comet Storm
Starstorm
Street Spasm
Stingscourger
Dead // Gone
BLACK
Sadistic Sacrament
Praetor's Grasp
Sudden Spoiling
Fleshbag Marauder
Bone Shredder
Shriekmaw
Diabolic Edict
Cruel Edict
Geth's Verdict
Innocent Blood
Liliana of the Veil
Seal of Doom
Smother
Go for the Throat
Doom Blade
Terror
Victim of Night
Last Gasp
Nameless Inversion
Sudden Death
Dismember
Tragic Slip
Darkblast
Murder
Rend Flesh
Eyeblight's Ending
Nihil Spellbomb
Leyline of the Void
Withered Wretch
Nezumi Gravedigger
Cremate
Duress
Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
Despise
Distress
BLUE
Pongify
Counterspell
Mana Drain
Arcane Denial
Force of Will
Remove Soul
Essence Scatter
False Summoning
Preemptive Strike
Remand
Mana Leak
Miscalculation
Gilded Drake
Into the Roil
Wipe Away
Capsize
Man-O'-War
AEther Adept
Psionic Blast
Trickbind
Stifle
GREEN
Scavenging Ooze
Night Soil
Lignify
Beast Within
Arachnus Web
Ulvenwald Tracker
Ground Seal
Bind
WHITE
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Crib Swap
Journey to Nowhere
Oblivion Ring
Arrest
Prison Term
Stonecloaker
Sunlance
GOLD
Hide // Seek
Fire // Ice
Terminate
Dreadbore
Putrefy
Mortify
Unmake
Vindicate
Maelstrom Pulse
Meddling Mage
Lightning Helix
Augur Spree
Electrolyze
Snakeform
Voidslime
Azorius Guildmage
Castigate
Tidehollow Sculler
Zealous Persecution
Shadow of Doubt
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Abrupt Decay
Dryad Militant
Izzet Charm
Naya Charm
Bant Charm
Jund Charm
Grixis Charm
Crosis's Charm
Darigaaz's Charm
Dromar's Charm
COLORLESS
Tormod's Crypt
Phyrexian Furnace
Scrabbling Claws
Relic of Progenitus
Grafdigger's Cage
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker
Damping Matrix
Cursed Totem
Moonglove Extract
Mortarpod
If every deck ran a reasonable number of the above cards, Hermit Druid would really be fighting an uphill battle. They're all good cards too - they're just not flashy. If you support a format without Hermit Druid, you're supporting a more uniform format where cards such as these are less important, so keep that in mind.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Considering that most of the combo cards ever printed are legal... yeah. If you really want to build a broken combo deck, nobody is stopping you, but good luck having people to play with after a while.
Again. This makes it not aggro how? You can't complain about aggro sucking and then dismiss one of the best decks in the format (which actually happens to be an aggro deck) just because you have some beef with taking extra turns. It's exactly the same as taking a bunch of attack steps, only blue.
Plus, you know... a horde of 1-drops isn't very scary if people play an appropriate amount of removal. Don't even try to tell me that Flying Men are on your **** list.
Who said it was? Certainly not I. I simply said it is a Vintage-based format.
And yet Imperial Seal, Mishra's Workshop, and Bazaar of Baghdad are legal. Money + Ubiquity together are a factor for banning.
Obviously. Everything else is already restricted.
See above.
It's called a variant rule-set. Being multiplayer does not make it any less based on Vintage.
Since when is it free? Also, variant rule-set. Based-on != exactly the same.
Same card base. Deck size is irrelevant.
You are being extremely intellectually dishonest. I never called it 99 card vintage. I said it was based on Vintage. You know, being that they based it on Vintage.
I agree. It is a unique multiplayer format... that just happens to be based on Vintage.
When Audiox said that Commander was a "Vintage format," he meant that aside from a custom banned list, we are playing with the Vintage-legal card pool.
You guys are just arguing semantics at completely cross purposes. I'm not sure you actually disagree about anything.
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I am NOT trying to agruge a competetive standpoint, I am promoting social interaction. Make your game the game you want to play.
All this being said, I dont think Druid gets banned, but if he does I won't shed one tear, I never play him in any of my decks.
It's blatantly wrong constructed formats are proof of this.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
It's not an apples to apples analogy though (but not quite apples to oranges). Constructed formats have a very clear goal, which has been stated by Wizards: ban as few cards as possible, but ban whatever is necessary to keep the field diverse(ish) with multiple different viable archtypes. This is to ensure people don't get frustrated with playing competitively, which leads to lower attendance, which leads to lower sales. Sales and profit, being the end goal. EDH on the other hand, has a similar concern (keep players happy so they'll keep playing. It's end, however, is that players can play a social game without the stigma that comes with competitive formats with prizes on the line.
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Not at all. The goal of constructed formats is to win by any means possible, so presumably all players are going to be trying to abuse everything. That isn't the case with Commander, which is a social format.
You also have to consider that a lot more cards are "broken" in Commander than are in Vintage/Legacy due to the nature of the format. Griselbrand isn't particularly noteworthy in Vintage, yet it's balls-to-the-wall busted in Commander. So are cards like Tooth and Nail. Large casting cost isn't a prohibitive restriction nearly as much as it is in other formats, because life totals are higher and games go on longer.
It is impossible to ban every abuseable card in Commander without ruining the format.
EDH should not be T1 vs T1 decks for prizes that last 5 mins. That is the realm of Legacy et al. I think you knew what I meant and chose to ignore it.
Oath -> Grisselbanned is a deck. I am however aware that some cards are just better in EDH. That being said anything that is a core card for a combo archtype in VINTAGE should probably be banned (Oath for example). Oath is slightly (only slightly) less broken in EDH due to only having singletons of forbidden orchard and oath while druid (A slightly weaker 1 card combo) gets slightly better.
You don't need to ban "every" abusive card, only the MOST abusive cards (Oath, druid, adnauseam, power artifact) and there you go 4-5 cards and you instantly add at least a full turn of answers. The next best being about T4-5 and with less disruption in addition to being vulnerable to remove and removes all but tooth and nail as 1 card combos. The next best also loses (comically) to spot removal, which all of the above do not.
Again I feel people like you have no idea what they are talking about. Legacy is by far the most diverse and interactive format the only deck that has games lasting 5 minutes is belcher, which is something you build with that intent. (and isn't that great of a deck) Tons of people seem to think this way and it needs to go away as it's again blatantly wrong.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
I'm not sure if HD should be banned or not, but have you even played with or against 5cHD ? The deck has been tuned to deal with your long list of cards every game. This is why I made the assertion most people haven't played against or piloted this deck. It far more resilient that you give it credit for. It consistently goes off turn 3 or 4 even against disruption. It was developed that way. It wouldn't be the best combo deck in the format if it was so easily disrupted.