What's something that you consider a social-griefy card as opposed to merely a broken one?
Coalition Victory, Biorhythm, Upheaval, STitan. Almost everything on the banlist, really falls there in some fashion - even the large-early-mana cards are pretty griefy. There's an accidental component to it - a card that'll lead to "oops, screwed up that game, sorry" a lot of the time will likely get a pretty hard look.
"Broken" cards are cards that are broken in the context of commander. Limited Resources is the poster child for that one.
My vote: No-ban for multiplayer EDH. I have this deck built, it's been one of my go-to decks for competitive EDH and I have all the expensive cards for it so it should be pretty close to the best possible version of the deck. However, in actual play in competitive multiplayer environments against competitive decks, it's good but not that good. In 4-player pods, there's a better-than-even chance that there is enough hate among the other three players to ensure that you don't win. Besides, there's a ton of fun interactions in stopping this combo as well
P.S. Grafdigger's Cage is a card, Stp is a card, and all the creature removal and counter spells would also like a word with Hermit Druid.dec.
First I want to start off by agreeing with papa_funk on the socially griefy cards like sway and biorythem. They are not too good but casting them creates unfun game states.
Also
"Broken" cards are cards that are broken in the context of commander. Limited Resources is the poster child for that one.
Could not agree more.
There are tons. Knowledge Pool. Mind over Matter, LED, Worldgorger, Power Artifact. Almost everything in Stax decks. Heck, by this definition, Ophidian Eye belongs on the banlist. Last time someone tried to do this a couple years ago, they stopped at around 80.
I am not asking you to ban 2 card combos or 1 card + general. I am asking you to ban the literal 1 card combos, Hermit druid, ad nauseam and oath. (as oath replaces druid but is weaker.) That go off at break neck speed reasonably on T3 consistently.
You're backing the wrong card in Hermit Druid. Unlike several of the others, it does have a place in many decks as a guy who gets you basic lands while putting some stuff in your graveyard. Plenty of people run him.
I have recently built mimoplasm. I included hermit druid and 7 basics (Which is around the amount I include in every 3 color deck) after fetches(9), duals(3), shocks(3), Karoos(3), Cycle lands(3), urborg, cabal coffers, crypt of agadeem, tolaria west, vorash stronghold, ext you dont have much room for basics anyway and druid seems hideously over powered even when it only mills 10 and draws a land.
Druid is problematic because of stuff like this for mimoplasm, karador, whatever you want honestly, any 3 color general playing the card will get far too much out of it even if they aren't super fast combo. The "Fair" use is absurdly powerful the broken use is beyond absurd. The only people who are using the deck fairly are decks like azusa or mono green or green/X that have 20+ basics.
And, honestly, I think anyone who puts Mana Echoes in Sliver Queen is being fantastically uncreative. Your need to win is so strong that you'll stick in such an anticlimactic card? (On the bright side, at least this one gives the table a turn to answer)
This requires 6 mana SIX, and has to go around the ENTIRE TABLE before hand. If the table cannot answer it to be fair they deserve what they get. It's one thing to just flat out win out of nowhere (time stretch, Tooth and nail) or be absurdly cheep (Hermit druid, oath) but anything that costs 6, 7 mana had better be ABLE to win especially if you count casting mana echos (a blatant rattlesnake) and letting it live for a long time.
This is, in a nutshell, the competitive player view of social gaming. "It's fair, you can run answers".
Because we have the reverse view of winning/losing/playing. For example I TnN'ed kiki mite once and they got killed by a cycled decree of pain. I shrugged and went on. Later in the game I lost to kiki conscripts , from my own graveyard to a chainer. That was cool just like losing to a wild ricochet on my time stretch was also cool. The thing "It's fair, you can run answers" Creates more interesting games like the above than the "Its fair but people consider it lame so I have to hop on one leg and start the game with a poorly constructed deck to avoid it being lame"
Games are cool when you notice good interactions with good cards or cool things (double time stretching off my own stretch for example) actually happen. Sure 1/4th of games will end in infinite turns. Sure another 1/4th will end in infinite combos but thats fine by me because thats the half of the games that would end with people swinging away with tired old dudes I have seen a hundred BAJILLION times in other formats.
Your statement is correct but I feel it has the wrong connotation to it.
1) I don't play Sliver Queen/Mana Echoes any more. That should have been clear by the fact that I said "My Old Sliver Queen deck" and "played". These are past tense terms. You might want to pump the breaks a bit there Papa Funk and actually read what I wrote before replying so snarky. Or you could take another pithy jab and see how that works out for you on the internet. Flame on guy.
2) I never said "it's fair, you can run answers". Are you not reading what I'm saying? What I said was if even Dismiss and Mystic Snake could reasonably be expected to be cast the turn the combo player tries to go off, maybe that would be a good place to draw the line as to what combos are too fast and what aren't. I was making a distinction between the power levels of combos, not throwing my endorsement behind them. You're trying to change what I'm saying and then arguing against that instead of what I actually wrote.
3) Hermit Druid is broken when played "fair" too. Lord of Extinction, basic lands, Anger/Wonder/Brawn/Filth, cheap "reanimate" spells. Would you agree that all those cards are reasonable and good quality cards to play in EDH? Because when you have the reanimation spell in hand with Hermit Druid, you one shot a person per turn. Or, if you're packing a lot of creatures, you could just say screw it to the reanimation spell and dredge back Golgari Grave-Troll (again, with haste and evasion). Fun. These are "fair" uses of Hermit Druid compared to what's actually done with him, and I wouldn't want to play against a single one.
4) I think we're talking about fast combos here, not slow Niz Mizzet combo that's completely telegraphed to all the players at the board before the game even starts. I hear he doesn't have haste either.
"You're playing a Niv deck? Do you play Curiosity effects? In that case, I'm not playing against you."
Or...
"You're cast Niv. Guess I know to keep mana open for what you're going to try to do next turn."
Hermit Druid's just a little bit stronger than that, and just a tad harder to identify before the game starts. Just a bit.
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This format is the only reason I still own Magic cards.
1) I don't play Sliver Queen/Mana Echoes any more. That should have been clear by the fact that I said "My Old Sliver Queen deck" and "played". These are past tense terms. You might want to pump the breaks a bit there Papa Funk and actually read what I wrote before replying so snarky. Or you could take another pithy jab and see how that works out for you on the internet. Flame on guy.
Sorry, I should have phrased that more clearly - I wasn't attacking you directly. My point was that someone who feels the need to justify playing Mana Echoes with "it's a 'fair' combo" is kind of missing the point. It's not relevant whether it's fair or not, it's just not very interesting (and I acknowledged that it's not as bad as many). The fact the you ditched it suggests that you realized this, so kudos.
2) I never said "it's fair, you can run answers". Are you not reading what I'm saying? What I said was if even Dismiss and Mystic Snake could reasonably be expected to be cast the turn the combo player tries to go off, maybe that would be a good place to draw the line as to what combos are too fast and what aren't. I was making a distinction between the power levels of combos, not throwing my endorsement behind them. You're trying to change what I'm saying and then arguing against that instead of what I actually wrote.
My understanding of your point is that the line between fair and unfair combos is that people could reasonably have answers on line. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you there.
The point I'm making is that that's reasonable from a competitive standpoint, but it's not from a social standpoint. In many ways it's worse, because it may represent an anticlimactic ending to what was shaping up to be an interesting game. The guy who thinks it's ok to do this to a social game isn't going to be corrected by cards on a banlist and he'll continue crushing decks not designed to handle his - even if they could have a Mystic Snake, they don't have the redundancy to ensure it, and are more interested in doing their thing to advance the game, not constantly waiting nervously to disrupt potential infinite combos.
The point I'm making is that that's reasonable from a competitive standpoint, but it's not from a social standpoint. In many ways it's worse, because it may represent an anticlimactic ending to what was shaping up to be an interesting game. The guy who thinks it's ok to do this to a social game isn't going to be corrected by cards on a banlist and he'll continue crushing decks not designed to handle his - even if they could have a Mystic Snake, they don't have the redundancy to ensure it, and are more interested in doing their thing to advance the game, not constantly waiting nervously to disrupt potential infinite combos.
Unfortunately, this is a problem that compounds the situation. There are more and more decks that can exploit a light disruption/removal package that is prevalent in EDH decks. Those who are more interested in advancing their game complain, those who exploited a weakness tell the former that they don't run enough removal, and two sides are bickering.
EDH had grown significantly, and although the core values stay the same, maybe it's necessary to reevaluate what evolution is needed to interact with the more competitive players in a positive manner. (Note: I'm not saying the ban list needs to have inclusions from a competitive standpoint, simply that there has to be something that can be done beyond the "talk to your group" mentality)
The point I'm making is that that's reasonable from a competitive standpoint, but it's not from a social standpoint. In many ways it's worse, because it may represent an anticlimactic ending to what was shaping up to be an interesting game. The guy who thinks it's ok to do this to a social game isn't going to be corrected by cards on a banlist and he'll continue crushing decks not designed to handle his - even if they could have a Mystic Snake, they don't have the redundancy to ensure it, and are more interested in doing their thing to advance the game, not constantly waiting nervously to disrupt potential infinite combos.
Wow, I am sorry you couldn't play prime time on turn 5 and had to settle for kodoma's reach backed up with beast within to not lose. People need answers (even if you have to tutor for say submerge, snuff out, Chaos warp, beast within, swords)
I don't even understand how this is a valid mentality if you dont pack redundant answers you will just lose to prime time,avenger, c sphinx, or whatever fatty instead of combo.
Simply advancing your own board state while ignoring your opponent is something very few decks in any format (EVEN CASUAL PLAYERS PLAY CARDS LIKE MURDER AND DOOM BLADE!) have ever accomplished and still won.
With the exception of hermit druid and ad nauseam (and no, the druid deck does not "Die to removal" as even swords it just adds 1 card to the combo) and to a lesser extent oath every infinite combo is susceptible to removal. Not playing the right amount of removal is the fault of the deck's constructor. If they play and construct poorly they are as likely to lose to combo as avenger of zendikar as they are dead eye navigator and palinchron.
The reason to ban Hermit druid is NOT for those people. It's for the relatively casual games its for the people that know how to play so they will not ruin more casual games.
"But these people will always flock to the best deck so why bother?"
Because druid is a vintage style deck, the "Next best" is a legacy style one. (even ad naus isn't that good compared to him.) This is a HORRIBLE argument and if they actually took this as a valid argument magic would be dead as a game. The next best is pathetic by comparison.
As a combo player I have tried durdly dudes like everyone else and found that EDH just becomes the most boring format in the world when you try swinging at people in a 5 player game for 2 hours only to realize that everyone still has 15-20 life left and no one has any board position after the 3rd disk/ostone.
Alternatively change the format from 40 life down to something else (30?)because at 40 aggro is dang near pointless. <But general damage!> General damage is like having 1 creature in your deck with poison, it will only work rarely unless you are swinging for lethal every turn or every other turn.
Okay. At first I thought maybe Hermit Druid should be banned because it "draws" too many cards for 2 mana, but the more arguments I've read, the more I've realized this is not the case since you really have to build your deck to abuse it.
The reason to ban Hermit druid is NOT for those people. It's for the relatively casual games its for the people that know how to play so they will not ruin more casual games.
Are you actually saying that Hermit Druid should be banned so that competitive players won't ruin games for casual players? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. That will happen regardless of what is on the banned list. That's what the social contract is for. JUST DON'T PLAY AGAINST THAT GUY.
the "Next best" is a legacy style one. (even ad naus isn't that good compared to him.)
The point is that you have to build around both of them for them to be completely broken. You can't just slap Hermit Druid or Ad Nauseam into a deck and make it suddenly ****busted. You have to take the initiative to put the anti-social interactions into the deck.
As a combo player I have tried durdly dudes like everyone else and found that EDH just becomes the most boring format in the world when you try swinging at people in a 5 player game for 2 hours only to realize that everyone still has 15-20 life left and no one has any board position after the 3rd disk/ostone.
Build better decks. You don't have to play big, durdly midrange decks.
Alternatively change the format from 40 life down to something else (30?)because at 40 aggro is dang near pointless. <But general damage!> General damage is like having 1 creature in your deck with poison, it will only work rarely unless you are swinging for lethal every turn or every other turn.
You've been playing the wrong aggro decks, man. Try Azusa or Edric.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
And Commander is a vintage-style format. What's your point?
This comment makes me feel like you have never played vintage.
The point is that you have to build around both of them for them to be completely broken. You can't just slap Hermit Druid or Ad Nauseam into a deck and make it suddenly ****busted. You have to take the initiative to put the anti-social interactions into the deck.
Except you don't most decent 3 color decks will only run ~6-8 basics which (If you run any other land search cards such as tribe elder or kodama's reach) can quickly mill 1/4th of your deck. To be truly bonkers yes you have to build around him but short of playing mono green or green/x the card is way too good.
Build better decks. You don't have to play big, durdly midrange decks.
I don't.
You've been playing the wrong aggro decks, man. Try Azusa or Edric.
I have, edric is simply a long drawn out combo of casting 8 time walks in a row. It's not "technically" combo but it sure plays like one.
I'd discourage the use of the term "build around" when talking about Hermit Druid. While you may have to "build around" him for 5c combo turn 3 wins, you DO NOT have to build around him for the card to be a broken enabler. If you've seen the numbers, most decks (on this site) running him have between 1-5 basic lands anyway, making him pretty strong with little to no investment.
If you put aside the fact that he dominates the combo scene and look at what he does for enabling graveyards, there's no other cards that pull that kind of weight at his cost. His drawback ? having to put non-basic lands instead of basics.... like that's really hard in this format.
Who knows if he should banned ? Has RC updated it criteria or philosophies for banning a card yet ? Once there's some objective reasoning behind banning cards, maybe we can come back to this guy. Until then....meh.
I'd discourage the use of the term "build around" when talking about Hermit Druid. While you may have to "build around" him for 5c combo turn 3 wins, you DO NOT have to build around him for the card to be a broken enabler. If you've seen the numbers, most decks (on this site) running him have between 1-5 basic lands anyway, making him pretty strong with little to no investment.
If you put aside the fact that he dominates the combo scene and look at what he does for enabling graveyards, there's no other cards that pull that kind of weight at his cost. His drawback ? having to put non-basic lands instead of basics.... like that's really hard in this format.
Who knows if he should banned ? Has RC updated it criteria or philosophies for banning a card yet ? Once there's some objective reasoning behind banning cards, maybe we can come back to this guy. Until then....meh.
I would be fine with this sentiment and even change my viewpoint of Druid (and Druid.dec as well) if he was being added to a preexisting Damia or Karador deck, because then at least he's another T&N or Hulk. But by far, the people who have been the most vocal about the degeneracy of him are the ones who face Druid.dec which is loaded with tutors and ways to ensure a T3 win. This alone is what makes people (myself included) a "build the deck around him" card.
This comment makes me feel like you have never played vintage.
This comment makes me feel like you've never played Commander. Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, etc. all see heavy play. This format is fundamentally based on Vintage.
Except you don't most decent 3 color decks will only run ~6-8 basics which (If you run any other land search cards such as tribe elder or kodama's reach) can quickly mill 1/4th of your deck. To be truly bonkers yes you have to build around him but short of playing mono green or green/x the card is way too good.
So you milled 1/4th of your deck. What now? Unless you built in a combo to kill the table it doesn't do much that is too anti-social. Why should the RC ban a card that has actual, interesting things it can do just so some dickbag can't combo everyone if he feels like building the "most broken deck"? That same dickbag will just move on to the next most broken deck, and no amount of banning will fix the fact that with such a huge card pool, anyone who wants to build a busted deck can ruin people's fun.
You just have to discourage that **** at a social level if your playgroup isn't into that. If everyone is cool with it, fine. That's why it's not banned. Each playgroup is different.
I have, edric is simply a long drawn out combo of casting 8 time walks in a row. It's not "technically" combo but it sure plays like one.
In the context of an aggro deck, what's the difference between a time walk and any of the red, extra-combat-phase cards? They're the same in this instance. Would it feel less like "combo" if you played a bunch of Relentless Assaults? Man up and quit complaining about aggro sucking when you refuse to play the aggro decks that don't.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
I would be fine with this sentiment and even change my viewpoint of Druid (and Druid.dec as well) if he was being added to a preexisting Damia or Karador deck, because then at least he's another T&N or Hulk. But by far, the people who have been the most vocal about the degeneracy of him are the ones who face Druid.dec which is loaded with tutors and ways to ensure a T3 win. This alone is what makes people (myself included) a "build the deck around him" card.
But as proven in this thread alone, he's not a build around me card. That's just what people choose to focus on.
To be honest, I play and have played in many metas, including online. I have faced off against this deck a total of two times (both times online). I highly doubt the amount of people that are complaining about that deck have even seen it played or know how to pilot or play against it. A lot of the crying is hype/fear mongering.
Again, without any direction from the RC and how they want to shape the format, he's just another combo piece that's troublesome.
To be honest, I play and have played in many metas, including online. I have faced off against this deck a total of two times (both times online). I highly doubt the amount of people that are complaining about that deck have even seen it played or know how to pilot or play against it. A lot of the crying is hype/fear mongering.
This. 10 years in the game, several competitive metas, not one time have I seen this deck. I've seen Hermit Druid used in yard-based decks, sure. But nothing so degenerate as is being complained about here.
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To be honest, I play and have played in many metas, including online. I have faced off against this deck a total of two times (both times online). I highly doubt the amount of people that are complaining about that deck have even seen it played or know how to pilot or play against it. A lot of the crying is hype/fear mongering.
Agreed. The only time I faced it was online as well. Thing with Druid (played "fairly") is that you're putting all your eggs in one basket for no immediate return. Biggest concern with Karador is getting that proper sized graveyard to gain advantage but not being out of the game when a Bog drops.
In the context of an aggro deck, what's the difference between a time walk and any of the red, extra-combat-phase cards? They're the same in this instance. Would it feel less like "combo" if you played a bunch of Relentless Assaults? Man up and quit complaining about aggro sucking when you refuse to play the aggro decks that don't.
Time walks untap your lands to walk again, and give your dudes haste. Chaining walks is not much different than E witness +shard + warp. Warps are like palinchron, free, they just dont look it.
It's win condition is the same as combo decks, an arbitrary amount of extra turns that prevents interaction.
This comment makes me feel like you've never played Commander. Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, etc. all see heavy play. This format is fundamentally based on Vintage.
Vintage is a fundamentally different format being able to play 4 of for answers allows the fast mana to be more balanced (chalice for 0 for example) They still have to restrict a number of cards and a number of the cards you mentioned are all easily answered in vintage due to the above mentioned FOUR of's. Answers are more abundant in that format because they have access to more good answers while still restricting (most) of the above. This makes tutors even STRONGER in edh than vintage due to the singleton nature of your combo cards already existing in vintage (Vault key) and playing against slower decks.
So you milled 1/4th of your deck. What now? Unless you built in a combo to kill the table it doesn't do much that is too anti-social. Why should the RC ban a card that has actual, interesting things it can do just so some dickbag can't combo everyone if he feels like building the "most broken deck"? That same dickbag will just move on to the next most broken deck, and no amount of banning will fix the fact that with such a huge card pool, anyone who wants to build a busted deck can ruin people's fun.
You just have to discourage that **** at a social level if your playgroup isn't into that. If everyone is cool with it, fine. That's why it's not banned. Each playgroup is different.
So unban timevault so my twiddles can be time walks. You just have to discourage playing vault with key AMIRITE? .......
I hear playing a few basics, a few reanimate spells, Lord of Extinction/Golgari Grave-Troll, and some Judgement Incarnations isn't building your deck around Hermy. It still kills a player per turn.
I also heard that " the next best thing" isn't as good. Believe it or not, that matters.
This comment makes me feel like you've never played Commander. Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, etc. all see heavy play. This format is fundamentally based on Vintage.
eh ? EDH is a multiplayer based format. Vintage is a 1v1 based format. They are fundamentally different in almost every way.
I hear playing a few basics, a few reanimate spells, Lord of Extinction/Golgari Grave-Troll, and some Judgement Incarnations isn't building your deck around Hermy. It still kills a player per turn.
So? If you land that the three other people should team up on you, if you beat them GG. Shuffle up, lets go again. It takes combat PHASES and 2/3 v 1 to win, thats what the format should be.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I hear playing a few basics, a few reanimate spells, Lord of Extinction/Golgari Grave-Troll, and some Judgement Incarnations isn't building your deck around Hermy. It still kills a player per turn.
I also heard that " the next best thing" isn't as good. Believe it or not, that matters.
In your opinion, what's the next best thing (outta curiosity and boredom) ?
I hear playing a few basics, a few reanimate spells, Lord of Extinction/Golgari Grave-Troll, and some Judgement Incarnations isn't building your deck around Hermy. It still kills a player per turn.
I also heard that " the next best thing" isn't as good. Believe it or not, that matters.
Are you honestly saying this is the only efficent way to fill a graveyard, get real. There are cards that auto dump 1/2 or more of your library, no randomness.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
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Coalition Victory, Biorhythm, Upheaval, STitan. Almost everything on the banlist, really falls there in some fashion - even the large-early-mana cards are pretty griefy. There's an accidental component to it - a card that'll lead to "oops, screwed up that game, sorry" a lot of the time will likely get a pretty hard look.
"Broken" cards are cards that are broken in the context of commander. Limited Resources is the poster child for that one.
P.S. Grafdigger's Cage is a card, Stp is a card, and all the creature removal and counter spells would also like a word with Hermit Druid.dec.
Also
Could not agree more.
I am not asking you to ban 2 card combos or 1 card + general. I am asking you to ban the literal 1 card combos, Hermit druid, ad nauseam and oath. (as oath replaces druid but is weaker.) That go off at break neck speed reasonably on T3 consistently.
I have recently built mimoplasm. I included hermit druid and 7 basics (Which is around the amount I include in every 3 color deck) after fetches(9), duals(3), shocks(3), Karoos(3), Cycle lands(3), urborg, cabal coffers, crypt of agadeem, tolaria west, vorash stronghold, ext you dont have much room for basics anyway and druid seems hideously over powered even when it only mills 10 and draws a land.
Druid is problematic because of stuff like this for mimoplasm, karador, whatever you want honestly, any 3 color general playing the card will get far too much out of it even if they aren't super fast combo. The "Fair" use is absurdly powerful the broken use is beyond absurd. The only people who are using the deck fairly are decks like azusa or mono green or green/X that have 20+ basics.
This requires 6 mana SIX, and has to go around the ENTIRE TABLE before hand. If the table cannot answer it to be fair they deserve what they get. It's one thing to just flat out win out of nowhere (time stretch, Tooth and nail) or be absurdly cheep (Hermit druid, oath) but anything that costs 6, 7 mana had better be ABLE to win especially if you count casting mana echos (a blatant rattlesnake) and letting it live for a long time.
Because we have the reverse view of winning/losing/playing. For example I TnN'ed kiki mite once and they got killed by a cycled decree of pain. I shrugged and went on. Later in the game I lost to kiki conscripts , from my own graveyard to a chainer. That was cool just like losing to a wild ricochet on my time stretch was also cool. The thing "It's fair, you can run answers" Creates more interesting games like the above than the "Its fair but people consider it lame so I have to hop on one leg and start the game with a poorly constructed deck to avoid it being lame"
Games are cool when you notice good interactions with good cards or cool things (double time stretching off my own stretch for example) actually happen. Sure 1/4th of games will end in infinite turns. Sure another 1/4th will end in infinite combos but thats fine by me because thats the half of the games that would end with people swinging away with tired old dudes I have seen a hundred BAJILLION times in other formats.
Your statement is correct but I feel it has the wrong connotation to it.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
2) I never said "it's fair, you can run answers". Are you not reading what I'm saying? What I said was if even Dismiss and Mystic Snake could reasonably be expected to be cast the turn the combo player tries to go off, maybe that would be a good place to draw the line as to what combos are too fast and what aren't. I was making a distinction between the power levels of combos, not throwing my endorsement behind them. You're trying to change what I'm saying and then arguing against that instead of what I actually wrote.
3) Hermit Druid is broken when played "fair" too. Lord of Extinction, basic lands, Anger/Wonder/Brawn/Filth, cheap "reanimate" spells. Would you agree that all those cards are reasonable and good quality cards to play in EDH? Because when you have the reanimation spell in hand with Hermit Druid, you one shot a person per turn. Or, if you're packing a lot of creatures, you could just say screw it to the reanimation spell and dredge back Golgari Grave-Troll (again, with haste and evasion). Fun. These are "fair" uses of Hermit Druid compared to what's actually done with him, and I wouldn't want to play against a single one.
4) I think we're talking about fast combos here, not slow Niz Mizzet combo that's completely telegraphed to all the players at the board before the game even starts. I hear he doesn't have haste either.
"You're playing a Niv deck? Do you play Curiosity effects? In that case, I'm not playing against you."
Or...
"You're cast Niv. Guess I know to keep mana open for what you're going to try to do next turn."
Hermit Druid's just a little bit stronger than that, and just a tad harder to identify before the game starts. Just a bit.
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—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Sorry, I should have phrased that more clearly - I wasn't attacking you directly. My point was that someone who feels the need to justify playing Mana Echoes with "it's a 'fair' combo" is kind of missing the point. It's not relevant whether it's fair or not, it's just not very interesting (and I acknowledged that it's not as bad as many). The fact the you ditched it suggests that you realized this, so kudos.
My understanding of your point is that the line between fair and unfair combos is that people could reasonably have answers on line. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you there.
The point I'm making is that that's reasonable from a competitive standpoint, but it's not from a social standpoint. In many ways it's worse, because it may represent an anticlimactic ending to what was shaping up to be an interesting game. The guy who thinks it's ok to do this to a social game isn't going to be corrected by cards on a banlist and he'll continue crushing decks not designed to handle his - even if they could have a Mystic Snake, they don't have the redundancy to ensure it, and are more interested in doing their thing to advance the game, not constantly waiting nervously to disrupt potential infinite combos.
Unfortunately, this is a problem that compounds the situation. There are more and more decks that can exploit a light disruption/removal package that is prevalent in EDH decks. Those who are more interested in advancing their game complain, those who exploited a weakness tell the former that they don't run enough removal, and two sides are bickering.
EDH had grown significantly, and although the core values stay the same, maybe it's necessary to reevaluate what evolution is needed to interact with the more competitive players in a positive manner. (Note: I'm not saying the ban list needs to have inclusions from a competitive standpoint, simply that there has to be something that can be done beyond the "talk to your group" mentality)
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Wow, I am sorry you couldn't play prime time on turn 5 and had to settle for kodoma's reach backed up with beast within to not lose. People need answers (even if you have to tutor for say submerge, snuff out, Chaos warp, beast within, swords)
I don't even understand how this is a valid mentality if you dont pack redundant answers you will just lose to prime time,avenger, c sphinx, or whatever fatty instead of combo.
Simply advancing your own board state while ignoring your opponent is something very few decks in any format (EVEN CASUAL PLAYERS PLAY CARDS LIKE MURDER AND DOOM BLADE!) have ever accomplished and still won.
With the exception of hermit druid and ad nauseam (and no, the druid deck does not "Die to removal" as even swords it just adds 1 card to the combo) and to a lesser extent oath every infinite combo is susceptible to removal. Not playing the right amount of removal is the fault of the deck's constructor. If they play and construct poorly they are as likely to lose to combo as avenger of zendikar as they are dead eye navigator and palinchron.
The reason to ban Hermit druid is NOT for those people. It's for the relatively casual games its for the people that know how to play so they will not ruin more casual games.
"But these people will always flock to the best deck so why bother?"
Because druid is a vintage style deck, the "Next best" is a legacy style one. (even ad naus isn't that good compared to him.) This is a HORRIBLE argument and if they actually took this as a valid argument magic would be dead as a game. The next best is pathetic by comparison.
As a combo player I have tried durdly dudes like everyone else and found that EDH just becomes the most boring format in the world when you try swinging at people in a 5 player game for 2 hours only to realize that everyone still has 15-20 life left and no one has any board position after the 3rd disk/ostone.
Alternatively change the format from 40 life down to something else (30?)because at 40 aggro is dang near pointless. <But general damage!> General damage is like having 1 creature in your deck with poison, it will only work rarely unless you are swinging for lethal every turn or every other turn.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
No, in 5 years, it has never once been an issue.
Are you actually saying that Hermit Druid should be banned so that competitive players won't ruin games for casual players? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. That will happen regardless of what is on the banned list. That's what the social contract is for. JUST DON'T PLAY AGAINST THAT GUY.
And Commander is a vintage-style format. What's your point?
The point is that you have to build around both of them for them to be completely broken. You can't just slap Hermit Druid or Ad Nauseam into a deck and make it suddenly ****busted. You have to take the initiative to put the anti-social interactions into the deck.
Build better decks. You don't have to play big, durdly midrange decks.
You've been playing the wrong aggro decks, man. Try Azusa or Edric.
This comment makes me feel like you have never played vintage.
Except you don't most decent 3 color decks will only run ~6-8 basics which (If you run any other land search cards such as tribe elder or kodama's reach) can quickly mill 1/4th of your deck. To be truly bonkers yes you have to build around him but short of playing mono green or green/x the card is way too good.
I don't.
I have, edric is simply a long drawn out combo of casting 8 time walks in a row. It's not "technically" combo but it sure plays like one.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
If you put aside the fact that he dominates the combo scene and look at what he does for enabling graveyards, there's no other cards that pull that kind of weight at his cost. His drawback ? having to put non-basic lands instead of basics.... like that's really hard in this format.
Who knows if he should banned ? Has RC updated it criteria or philosophies for banning a card yet ? Once there's some objective reasoning behind banning cards, maybe we can come back to this guy. Until then....meh.
I would be fine with this sentiment and even change my viewpoint of Druid (and Druid.dec as well) if he was being added to a preexisting Damia or Karador deck, because then at least he's another T&N or Hulk. But by far, the people who have been the most vocal about the degeneracy of him are the ones who face Druid.dec which is loaded with tutors and ways to ensure a T3 win. This alone is what makes people (myself included) a "build the deck around him" card.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
This comment makes me feel like you've never played Commander. Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, etc. all see heavy play. This format is fundamentally based on Vintage.
So you milled 1/4th of your deck. What now? Unless you built in a combo to kill the table it doesn't do much that is too anti-social. Why should the RC ban a card that has actual, interesting things it can do just so some dickbag can't combo everyone if he feels like building the "most broken deck"? That same dickbag will just move on to the next most broken deck, and no amount of banning will fix the fact that with such a huge card pool, anyone who wants to build a busted deck can ruin people's fun.
You just have to discourage that **** at a social level if your playgroup isn't into that. If everyone is cool with it, fine. That's why it's not banned. Each playgroup is different.
Then quit *****ing.
In the context of an aggro deck, what's the difference between a time walk and any of the red, extra-combat-phase cards? They're the same in this instance. Would it feel less like "combo" if you played a bunch of Relentless Assaults? Man up and quit complaining about aggro sucking when you refuse to play the aggro decks that don't.
But as proven in this thread alone, he's not a build around me card. That's just what people choose to focus on.
To be honest, I play and have played in many metas, including online. I have faced off against this deck a total of two times (both times online). I highly doubt the amount of people that are complaining about that deck have even seen it played or know how to pilot or play against it. A lot of the crying is hype/fear mongering.
Again, without any direction from the RC and how they want to shape the format, he's just another combo piece that's troublesome.
This. 10 years in the game, several competitive metas, not one time have I seen this deck. I've seen Hermit Druid used in yard-based decks, sure. But nothing so degenerate as is being complained about here.
Why in the world should we ban cards only because they're a problem in our local metas? This is why koko should've never been banned.
Agreed. The only time I faced it was online as well. Thing with Druid (played "fairly") is that you're putting all your eggs in one basket for no immediate return. Biggest concern with Karador is getting that proper sized graveyard to gain advantage but not being out of the game when a Bog drops.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Time walks untap your lands to walk again, and give your dudes haste. Chaining walks is not much different than E witness +shard + warp. Warps are like palinchron, free, they just dont look it.
It's win condition is the same as combo decks, an arbitrary amount of extra turns that prevents interaction.
Vintage is a fundamentally different format being able to play 4 of for answers allows the fast mana to be more balanced (chalice for 0 for example) They still have to restrict a number of cards and a number of the cards you mentioned are all easily answered in vintage due to the above mentioned FOUR of's. Answers are more abundant in that format because they have access to more good answers while still restricting (most) of the above. This makes tutors even STRONGER in edh than vintage due to the singleton nature of your combo cards already existing in vintage (Vault key) and playing against slower decks.
So unban timevault so my twiddles can be time walks. You just have to discourage playing vault with key AMIRITE? .......
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
I also heard that " the next best thing" isn't as good. Believe it or not, that matters.
eh ? EDH is a multiplayer based format. Vintage is a 1v1 based format. They are fundamentally different in almost every way.
In your opinion, what's the next best thing (outta curiosity and boredom) ?