Quote from EmayLion's eye diamond is a safe ban. No one ever uses this card 'honestly' - it's purely for unfair things like storm decks and auriok salvager recursion. So even if it isn't format warping or crucial to certain types of unfun decks....it's not like anyone's going to miss it. Cards like worldgorger dragon and staff of domination work the same way. No one uses those for face value, they use them to combo out.
Cards like power artifact on the other hand, do have legitimate applications. You can't just ban everything that is part of an infinite combo...there are hundreds, maybe thousands of such cards.
In my mind, protean hulk, kokusho, panoptic mirror, and sway of the stars warrant unban consideration. And I wouldn't object to necro, sol ring, and mana crypt getting the axe.
Quote from fzianThere should be a special Banlist FAQ on the Eldrazis but here's the Reader's Digest version: -
It costs 15 mana to cast. Now, at 15 mana, I think it is reasonable to expect something which tiptoes on the line of awesomeness.Related to the above point, if you DON'T have 15 mana during the early parts of the game, chances are, you are holding an overpriced dead cardIn a multiplayer group, if at least one player runs Bribery, there goes your tentacly ones.
This list is not exclusive, of course but I think that's the gist of the argument.
In both the case of the Eldrazis and Genesis Wave, it is not even good in most decks that can run them; indeed, you will need a particular build if you really want to abuse it.
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Quote from fzianLets be honest with ourselves. Most competitive players have no intention of using any of the cards "honestly" or "fairly". That is the entire point of playing Magic Heck, players will try to break Goblin Piker if able. Most players will seek to break a card, be it for winning the game, fulfilling some devious combo, etc.
Now, it is true that Palinchron is generally used for some less-than-honest purposes but even when it is used to fulfil infinite combos, there is one huge safety valve which could stop a Palinchron combo dead in its tracks -- spot removal in response to its activated ability. Granted, that player is probably running some countermagic suite but we are talking about a check and balance consisting of an entire table.
Quote from viperesqueI don't see any real problem with Palinchron. Firstly, it does have legitimate uses (but then, so does Hulk). The main thing for me is that 'all' it can do is make infinite mana. Staff and Hulk win you the game instantly. Sure, Worldgorger only makes infinite mana too, but it's much faster, and there is literally no reason why you'd play the card otherwise.
Quote from Surging ChaosLED + Salvagers makes only infinite mana too, and that's banned.
I understand the reasoning behind banning Dragon in that it nobody uses the card other than to combo off, but can't you say the same for Palinchron as well? When was the last time someone actually played Palinchron without using it to generate infinite mana in mind? Honestly, I can't remember a time that happened myself.
Quote from EmayEDH is supposed to be a multiplayer format filled with interaction. Combos aren't interactive, the banlist is supposed to discourage that. Cards that are clearly terrible UNLESS you combo-win with them are ideal candidates for banlisting.
Quote from EmayIts activated ability is self-bounce....spot removal only works if they don't have enough mana to activate again in response (and if they're about to go infinite, that implies they have enough to re-cast palinchron)....so no, that's not a good solution at all.
Quote from killem2The only card I still find questionable is Recurring Nightmare. And that's just because I love that card I was sad when I started to get into edh here and saw it was banned. I know its crazy good.
Quote from ludd_gangSpeaking as "the solution guy", colors outside of black have thin access to gy hate. Green has some stuff, but it's pretty suboptimal sorcery speed stuff. (Relic is fantastic and in every deck, of course.)
Moreover even if you run gy hate, not everyone does. If you are the one guy controlling gy's at a table, everyone else is running decks that combo better than yours.
Just my $.02.
Quote from OgrefootUnban:
Reasoning: This is a multiplayer format, let politics rein in people who abuse these cards. If someone insists on being a pain in the ass AND is somehow so good at deck design/playing that they can remain invincible, then handle it locally. Just because your table has trouble handling Academy doesn't mean my table should have its toys taken away.
Re: Crypt and Ring - these are staples, don't you dare mess with them.
Re: Emrakul - 15 mana deserves this much power, learn to build better decks if this guy is consistently wrecking you.
Quote from fzian
Not exactly. A Palinchron combo usually has to survive the first few iterations of cast-and-bounce in order to go infinite and it is at this point that the combo is at its most vulnerable point. In an hypothetical example, starting with 6 Islands and a Extraplanar Lens in play (imprinting Island), the combo player will tap for 12 blue mana, spend 7 to play Palinchron and have 5 mana floating, in which 4 would subsequently be used to bounce Palinchron. Now, at this point, the blue player is tapped out and with 1 mana left in the mana pool, it is very possible for the table to either destroy Palinchron, destroy the Extraplanar Lens, etc. in response to the activated ability. Even without going into colourless spells, any decks of any colour(s) can potentially stop Palinchron from going to the next iteration of the cast-bounce.
I'm honestly confused as to why Sway of the Stars is banned while none of the other similar effects in blue are. Is the 7 life thing really that relevant?
Quote from GwafaHazidI think it is, especially since the player that'd probably get the most mileage out of the card is Jhoira, as in the "Yeah, that's an Emrakul I've got suspended" Jhoira
Quote from Sinfire Titan
Its also because you can just generate absurd amounts of mana and then kill everyone by dropping something even remotely threatening after Sway resolves. If it didn't have the 7 life clause, it might not have been banned. But it is still better than a Worldpurge.
Right, but...if you have the mana to cast WP AND drop a reasonable threat (lets say a 4/4) wouldn't that be 1.) A lot of mana and 2.) A mana cost where winning is not unreasonable?
Sway is like what 10? A 4/4 follow up (assuming you're even lucky enough to get to it) is probably another 4-6 mana so we're pushing 14-16 mana. I'm not mad if that wins.
Why is Kokusho banned in the first place?