It seems to me to fit all the requirements of something that would be put under consideration.
Ubiquity - It is that perfect level of good that it will see play up and down the power curve, and is not that expensive so that will be even more expanded. Power - Average Multiplayer game is 4 that is typically 3 things from the hand and a creature depending on circumstances Cost - Unlike its big brother Expropriate 6 mana sorcery for this much value is never a bad deal
Obviously the card has one gigantic downside in that if you have no cards in your hand it becomes flip for the first creature in your deck (having no cards in hand is a thing that did not however get in the way of Prophet of Kruphix being banned).
Never seen it nor heard of it being cast. Never seen it in a deck list. Ubiquity might be a tough sell.
Power isnt a ban criteria.
Sure it can get you 4 creatures, and then someone wipes.
I have no doubt of its power, but just like so many cards at 6 mana: have an answer, team up, or die.
Plus it gets worse as the game goes on. Doubtful it gets a serious consideration, let alone a ban.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Echoing MRHblue - It's also influenced by what each player votes and you can whiff on it by getting nothing but mana dorks. The randomness of the effect overcomes a lot of broken potential.
I think Tolarian Academy is deserving of some time off the list.
I also wouldn't mind seeing Recurring Nightmare and Braids off the list but let's start somewhere.
Yes. But please not with Tolarian Academy. I think Protean Hulk should come off before that, and then Gifts Ungiven, as neither fulfills the ban list requirements.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
If and when the RC does decide to unban a card in the future, I expect it to be something completely unforseen, like what happened with the Metalworker unban. Perhaps Time Vault, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, or Biorhythm, we'll have to wait and see what surprise they have planned.
I could definately go for Academy, Gifts, Painter's, Mirror, Hulk, Emrakul, and Biothythm. Infact I've never even seen a physical copy of Biorhythm in my life. That's how popular of a card it is. Time Vault is nothing but a combo piece, but do we really need to kick the hyper competitive crowd in the teeth like that? It'll end up like a $1500 card no one can get their hands on and be one of the premier infinite combo pieces out there. Trade Secrets, I've never seen cast outside of the precon but it does interact poorly with the multiplayer nature of the format about as badly as limited resources.
I'm almost certain Biorythm wouldn't have been banned had it been printed now instead of when it was. With the huge amount of indestructible dudes that are playable now, it isn't even necessarily going to be able to win on the spot unless you're the one to play an exile/tuck wrath on top of it in the same turn. That's 14 mana unless you get lucky and get Hallowed Burial and then you have to get a creature into play yourself so it's probably going to run more than Emrakul unless you play stuff like Memnite. I think 3 card combos that cost over 15 mana would be really amusing. I really think it was a victim of the time when it was printed like Emrakul. Afterall, back when Emrakul was printed, we didn't really have all the game ending giant creatures and spells we have now. It was a big fish in a pond with very few fish at all. It was a time when Searing Wind was played. It was a time when there were groups that thought Time Stretch was the most broken card ever printed. Back then, if you wanted an army out of one card that could do serious damage, Crush of Wurms and Storm Herd was it. Emrakul is the most powerful creature, but we have a ton of cards that cost a lot less that can end the game just as easily now as Emrakul or Biorhythm. Of course, Emrakul is also even more dangerous now due to the legend rule change so even if it isn't played enough to make Bribery come back, if you play it out, you're opening yourself up to people making their own copy. Of course, some people will play it and some people will have a bad day, but without the time walk from casting it, there's actually a good chance it might even be the person that put it onto the field that has a bad day.
Without desiring to trudge through a thousand pages of discussion - anyone know why doomsday isn't banned? It seems like the sort of card that can ONLY be used for degenerate purposes. At least with HD and ad nauseum and stuff like that you have some argument that they're playable legitimately. I guess the banlist is for stuff that can be used fairly but always gravitates toward unfairness, whereas doomsday you basically have to start with unfairness?
Idk it seems weird that it's never been banned to me, and I don't even see much discussion about it. There's essentially no fun way to use the card, it's basically the same as coalition victory where it's just a boring i-win button that serves no other purpose.
Without desiring to trudge through a thousand pages of discussion - anyone know why doomsday isn't banned? It seems like the sort of card that can ONLY be used for degenerate purposes. At least with HD and ad nauseum and stuff like that you have some argument that they're playable legitimately. I guess the banlist is for stuff that can be used fairly but always gravitates toward unfairness, whereas doomsday you basically have to start with unfairness?
Idk it seems weird that it's never been banned to me, and I don't even see much discussion about it. There's essentially no fun way to use the card, it's basically the same as coalition victory where it's just a boring i-win button that serves no other purpose.
You said it yourself: It's pretty much ONLY a boring I-win card with degenerate use only (not counting the hilarity of Hind Mind shenanigans. As far as I know, the RC isn't worried too much any more about those types of cards.
If and when the RC does decide to unban a card in the future, I expect it to be something completely unforseen, like what happened with the Metalworker unban. Perhaps Time Vault, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, or Biorhythm, we'll have to wait and see what surprise they have planned.
Interesting, we had talked about Metal Worker for a few months with real feedback from the RC. I was not the least bit surprised.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Without desiring to trudge through a thousand pages of discussion - anyone know why doomsday isn't banned? It seems like the sort of card that can ONLY be used for degenerate purposes. At least with HD and ad nauseum and stuff like that you have some argument that they're playable legitimately. I guess the banlist is for stuff that can be used fairly but always gravitates toward unfairness, whereas doomsday you basically have to start with unfairness?
Idk it seems weird that it's never been banned to me, and I don't even see much discussion about it. There's essentially no fun way to use the card, it's basically the same as coalition victory where it's just a boring i-win button that serves no other purpose.
You said it yourself: It's pretty much ONLY a boring I-win card with degenerate use only (not counting the hilarity of Hind Mind shenanigans. As far as I know, the RC isn't worried too much any more about those types of cards.
Well, the same can be said, even more literally, about coalition victory, and that remains banned (not that I want it unbanned).
Can't say I've actually ever seen doomsday played at my LGS, so I guess it's not ruining actual games of commander, so maybe it's fair. I wonder how many people would play coalition victory were it legal.
Well, the same can be said, even more literally, about coalition victory, and that remains banned (not that I want it unbanned).
Can't say I've actually ever seen doomsday played at my LGS, so I guess it's not ruining actual games of commander, so maybe it's fair. I wonder how many people would play coalition victory were it legal.
True, but CV can be jammed into quite literally any 5c deck, and if it resolves you probably just won the game. Doomsday requires 4-5 cards to make it work, and has opportunities for disruption after the spell resolves.
Coalition Victory can be responded to just like any Tooth and Nail combo, Kiki Jiki combo, or other creature combo, though. Plenty of commanders have instant win one card combos as well that are harder to stop. I don't see why it comboing with every 5 color commander is a big deal. Stuff like Teferi-Pool can't even be league ruled out either unless you ban something. Of course, that's probably an argument for unbanning Worldfire and I'm not sure what, exactly, anyone did with Sway of the Stars other than be a dick that got it banned. I guess you could float some mana and be assured of playing your commander or something so I guess it's a combo with some commander that has blue in it that can finish people off. I mean if you just want to be a dick, we have plenty of other cards you can cast like Decree of Annihilation. I mean sure they might not lead to fun gamestates, but I don't see how any of those 3 cards is anything but yet another combo and I don't see how anyone could accidentally wreck a game with them unlike say, Sylvan Primordial where someone plays them and an opponent decides to go off with it. There's also a lot of combos that cost less and are, you know, better. That Teferi-Pool lock can even be split over 2 turns since it involves a flash commander and then isn't really even possible to respond to the non commander piece. Combo players are going to combo no matter what.
Coalition Victory can be responded to just like any Tooth and Nail combo, Kiki Jiki combo, or other creature combo, though. Plenty of commanders have instant win one card combos as well that are harder to stop. I don't see why it comboing with every 5 color commander is a big deal. Stuff like Teferi-Pool can't even be league ruled out either unless you ban something. Of course, that's probably an argument for unbanning Worldfire and I'm not sure what, exactly, anyone did with Sway of the Stars other than be a dick that got it banned. I guess you could float some mana and be assured of playing your commander or something so I guess it's a combo with some commander that has blue in it that can finish people off. I mean if you just want to be a dick, we have plenty of other cards you can cast like Decree of Annihilation. I mean sure they might not lead to fun gamestates, but I don't see how any of those 3 cards is anything but yet another combo and I don't see how anyone could accidentally wreck a game with them unlike say, Sylvan Primordial where someone plays them and an opponent decides to go off with it. There's also a lot of combos that cost less and are, you know, better. That Teferi-Pool lock can even be split over 2 turns since it involves a flash commander and then isn't really even possible to respond to the non commander piece. Combo players are going to combo no matter what and even Omniscience looks more tempting for non combo use until you realize it costs as much mana as almost any card you can play so you may as well just play your expensive cards normally. Coalition Victory is even nice enough to literally write the words you win the game on it so inexperienced players will know for sure the game is over without explanation.
Coalition Victory can be responded to just like any Tooth and Nail combo, Kiki Jiki combo, or other creature combo, though. Plenty of commanders have instant win one card combos as well that are harder to stop. I don't see why it comboing with every 5 color commander is a big deal. Stuff like Teferi-Pool can't even be league ruled out either unless you ban something. Of course, that's probably an argument for unbanning Worldfire and I'm not sure what, exactly, anyone did with Sway of the Stars other than be a dick that got it banned. I guess you could float some mana and be assured of playing your commander or something so I guess it's a combo with some commander that has blue in it that can finish people off. I mean if you just want to be a dick, we have plenty of other cards you can cast like Decree of Annihilation. I mean sure they might not lead to fun gamestates, but I don't see how any of those 3 cards is anything but yet another combo and I don't see how anyone could accidentally wreck a game with them unlike say, Sylvan Primordial where someone plays them and an opponent decides to go off with it. There's also a lot of combos that cost less and are, you know, better. That Teferi-Pool lock can even be split over 2 turns since it involves a flash commander and then isn't really even possible to respond to the non commander piece. Combo players are going to combo no matter what.
Sway of the Stars may as well literally read "Restart the Game, everyone's life total becomes seven." It basically resets everything that happened before it was cast, and that's why it's banned.
Yeah, that's neat and all but it's probably less abusable than Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate. Unless you're exiling something that will return at the end of the effect for the win or sealing the deal with your commander or something in your new hand, it doesn't really help you. You're also giving all your opponents 7 cards which is way worse for winning with whatever you have than similar effects. I've been quite aware of the tag line for it on the banned list for a long time, but that doesn't explain why it's actually a good idea to play the card other than being a dick. Afterall, the completeness of this wipe makes it a lot harder to abuse it. Considering it was banned long after it was printed, it wasn't banned with little play like Worldfire who's logic was mostly that Sway was banned. Of course, I can see the Worldfire, play your commander play, but I don't see why it's worse than Teferi-pool, Niv-Mizzet-curiousity Kiki-Jiki-Zealous Conscripts Avacyn, Angel of Hope-Armageddon, or any other 1 card combo that doesn't cost 10 mana. Afterall, like people keep saying, combo players are gonna combo but for some reason, it's the 8 and 10 mana, hard to abuse combo cards banned (Biorhythm, Sway, and Worldfire) and Coalition Victory that's no more abuseable than Tooth and Nail, Kiki, etc. That just says we'll ban the combo cards but only the really bad ones that cost almost as much or even more than Tooth and Nail. At least Painter's and Hulk have the problem that an opponent could use them to combo off easily and Gifts can combo off by itself even though you can't do it cheaper without playing cards only usable for combo. The other cards are just combos that are really, really bad. Banning 8-10 mana trash combo and not banning strong combo like Ad Nauseam and Hermit Druid actually is pretty weird. If combo isn't banned for, all 7 of those cards could easily come off, especially since all of them besides Hulk and Painter's cost a stupid amount of mana to combo and Hulk requires a whole **** ton of stuff in your deck like Druid. I don't even like combo in commander and I think there isn't much logic to keeping them banned.
Yeah, that's neat and all but it's probably less abusable than Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate. Unless you're exiling something that will return at the end of the effect for the win or sealing the deal with your commander or something in your new hand, it doesn't really help you.
I dont think its about helping you as much as its just undesirable to reset a game an hour in just because you don't like where its at.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Flaming infinity, you are equating cards on the ban list which can be added to any Deck in a particular color and using a specific general as your counterexample. Don't you see a problem with thease comparisons?
Yeah, that's neat and all but it's probably less abusable than Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate. Unless you're exiling something that will return at the end of the effect for the win or sealing the deal with your commander or something in your new hand, it doesn't really help you.
I dont think its about helping you as much as its just undesirable to reset a game an hour in just because you don't like where its at.
Yeah, it's got the same issue as Shahrazad: making an already-long game even longer.
Yeah, that's neat and all but it's probably less abusable than Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate. Unless you're exiling something that will return at the end of the effect for the win or sealing the deal with your commander or something in your new hand, it doesn't really help you.
I dont think its about helping you as much as its just undesirable to reset a game an hour in just because you don't like where its at.
Is that really a banned list issue or just being a dick? I mean you could do about the same thing with Decree of Annihilation, Obliterate, Jokulhaups, Armageddon after a wipe, etc. Banning Sway doesn't really help that since there's way too many cards you can be a dick with if you want.
Flaming infinity, you are equating cards on the ban list which can be added to any Deck in a particular color and using a specific general as your counterexample. Don't you see a problem with thease comparisons?
If they were actually desirable to put in a deck other than to combo or be a dick, it might be a point, but they all lead to very similar gamestates of one player doing all the playing or winning instantly. I don't really see how adding them to the banned list really makes the format better when there are much better ways to lock a table or instantly win. As much mana as they cost, they aren't even really the best way to go about it if you wanted to.
Yeah, that's neat and all but it's probably less abusable than Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate. Unless you're exiling something that will return at the end of the effect for the win or sealing the deal with your commander or something in your new hand, it doesn't really help you.
I dont think its about helping you as much as its just undesirable to reset a game an hour in just because you don't like where its at.
Yeah, it's got the same issue as Shahrazad: making an already-long game even longer.
How does restarting the game with everyone at 7 make it longer? It probably makes it shorter since everyone gets 7 and cutting someone down from 7 life is a hell of a lot easier than 40. Even something like Solemn Simulacrum is a real threat at 7 life. Now, you could argue wrecking an interesting game, but a lot of cards can do that, like, say, Storm CauldronWarp World or Planar Chaos. I have no desire to play with anything like Sway of the Stars, though, so I don't really care other than taking cards off the banned list that don't really need to be there.
I'm not following the conversation all too well here, so forgive me if this is completely out of context, but I always thought Sway of the Stars fell into the same camp of cards like Worldfire, Biorhythm, and Coalition Victory? That it was just another game ending spell with little interesting application and seemingly invalidates every play before it? It being banned has less to do with it being a useful strategy and more to do with it creating undesirable gameplay. It quite literally restarts the game with 7 life totals, only leaving the exile intact.
On a side note, I think Coalition Victory may receive my vote as most deserving card on the banned list.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Yeah, they can create undesirable game states, but not any less desirable than lots of other cards no one even mentions. It's not like you can ban all the cards like them because there's a bunch of them. Of course, any board wipe pretty much wipes out the entire gamestate, especially ones like Planar Cleansing. I don't think anyone can argue that unbanning them would really add anything to the format, but I really doubt we'd see much of them anyway. I actually don't remember any complaints about Sway or Worldfire in actual play before they were banned. The others were banned before I started playing commander, but I seriously doubt there was much actual game play behind the bans, especially since I started way back in 2008 before the format really took off. They're mostly just taking up space on the list for little reason since the only people that would likely want to play them just want to troll and they'll just move on the the next troll card just like the combo players and the best combos. I mean its pretty much every other set we see some card that can create some kind of extremely undesirable game state. These just cost some of the most absurd amounts of mana to wreck a game while lots of other ones cost 5-7 mana instead of 8-10.
Most of those cards don't undo the entire game like Coalition Victory, Biorhytm, Sway and Worldfire do though. For example, yes, Obliterate nukes the field BUT life totals, hands and graves are still intact. This can be quite meaningful if you play a deck with a low-cost general or something that can abuse the grave on low mana.
Those other cards do not allow for such. You cast them, and either the game literally ends right there and then - no questions asked, which even T&N can't guarantee - Or the game is reset on a precariously low amount of life with an equal amount of resources for everyone, thus nullifying the entire game that happened before. That is the difference.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I typed this out in the Paradox Engine thread (but didn't post it yet) and it felt too much like a Ban or Not point, so I decided since I already typed it out, might as well transfer it here instead (I also think it's too early for a thread of its own, but I didn't want to retype the whole thing in the future and wanted this post somewhere as a reference point). So I guess better here then anywhere else...
Will it be powerful? Yes. Will it be centralizing? Time will tell.
This has potential to be Primeval Titan round 2 (okay fine round 3 or round 4), not because of its combo potential, but because of its generic goodness. Mana rocks are almost everywhere (almost equal to lands) which means this card will almost always benefit you even if you don't go infinite, the same way Titan does. Which means everyone might be itching to copy/steal/reanimate it for their own benefit, even if it doesn't combo off.
There are some things that go against that grain though, mainly:
1) It's an artifact, which is harder to copy/steal/reanimate than a creature. But at the same time, it's an artifact - any and every deck can run it as opposed to Titan and this gives it a larger base presence than Titan.
2) It requires existing mana rocks (or dorks) to substantially benefit from (even without combo). But at the same time, mana rocks are so common (dorks less so, but elves...) it's like saying Prophet needs creatures and lands to benefit from its effect.
It has a rather heavy dependence on artifact-related matters, which puts it at a tier lower than the cards already on the Banned List, but at the same time, are the artifacts involved already pretty much a mainstay as lands and creatures are?
Not advocating a quick-ban or any sorts, of course, but the card feels closer to the likes of Titan than the regular combo-pieces (DEN, Palinchron) because of its generic goodness rather than its combo-potential, so I think it has potential of being banned as a result.
Most of those cards don't undo the entire game like Coalition Victory, Biorhytm, Sway and Worldfire do though. For example, yes, Obliterate nukes the field BUT life totals, hands and graves are still intact. This can be quite meaningful if you play a deck with a low-cost general or something that can abuse the grave on low mana.
Those other cards do not allow for such. You cast them, and either the game literally ends right there and then - no questions asked, which even T&N can't guarantee - Or the game is reset on a precariously low amount of life with an equal amount of resources for everyone, thus nullifying the entire game that happened before. That is the difference.
Ok, so not much different than The Great Aurora or Worldpurge. I wanted to play Aurora as a green wrath and ended up blowing up games before deciding it didn't work that well as a sweeper. Decree of Annihilation also wipes out hands and graveyards even though it spares enchantments and planeswalkers. Unless you know it's coming, it's often a distinction without much meaning because all the cards basically render the game before it unrecognizable and I've seen occasionally used to set up a finishing move.
I typed this out in the Paradox Engine thread (but didn't post it yet) and it felt too much like a Ban or Not point, so I decided since I already typed it out, might as well transfer it here instead (I also think it's too early for a thread of its own, but I didn't want to retype the whole thing in the future and wanted this post somewhere as a reference point). So I guess better here then anywhere else...
Will it be powerful? Yes. Will it be centralizing? Time will tell.
This has potential to be Primeval Titan round 2 (okay fine round 3 or round 4), not because of its combo potential, but because of its generic goodness. Mana rocks are almost everywhere (almost equal to lands) which means this card will almost always benefit you even if you don't go infinite, the same way Titan does. Which means everyone might be itching to copy/steal/reanimate it for their own benefit, even if it doesn't combo off.
There are some things that go against that grain though, mainly:
1) It's an artifact, which is harder to copy/steal/reanimate than a creature. But at the same time, it's an artifact - any and every deck can run it as opposed to Titan and this gives it a larger base presence than Titan.
2) It requires existing mana rocks (or dorks) to substantially benefit from (even without combo). But at the same time, mana rocks are so common (dorks less so, but elves...) it's like saying Prophet needs creatures and lands to benefit from its effect.
It has a rather heavy dependence on artifact-related matters, which puts it at a tier lower than the cards already on the Banned List, but at the same time, are the artifacts involved already pretty much a mainstay as lands and creatures are?
Not advocating a quick-ban or any sorts, of course, but the card feels closer to the likes of Titan than the regular combo-pieces (DEN, Palinchron) because of its generic goodness rather than its combo-potential, so I think it has potential of being banned as a result.
Yeah, you can use it with a mana rock or two but that doesn't mean you can cast anything. If I could copy anything I'd rather have a Mana Reflection or Mirari's Wake or even Doubling Cube over it. You could even have your own Vorenclix now. Unwinding Clock might be nice too or Clock of Omens. Unless I had a bunch of mana rocks, it's not a card I'd really consider cloning. It just requires too much luck to get that much value out of unless you build your deck to abuse it. That doesn't mean you can't break it if you try, but it's just ok to bad otherwise depending on your hand and what other juicy targets there are.
Uhm, what? No different than Worldpurge or Great Aurora how? You can't float mana with the former, and the latter can easily backfire, but still affects the board equally.
As to Paradox Engine, I'd wager an average player can put 5+ mana on the board in terms of non-land sources. There are obviously expensive spells out of that reach, but none that I'd say put PE in a lesser category than Mana Reflection or Mirari's wake. They all share the same thing in common, you need something to cast with that heaping amount of mana, but where PE differs is that it can untap card advantage engines to keep the pedal down. Most are U, but some really powerful brown engines exist like Otherworld Atlas and Temple Bell. Or, just any buyback spell that costs the same or less than the amount of NL mana sources you have. Its not a matter of trying to break it, it'll just break on its own.
It needs to play tested for a while, but I ultimately agree with yash, it'll become the focal point of many games, much like PT.
Selvala's Stampede deserves a discussion.
It seems to me to fit all the requirements of something that would be put under consideration.
Ubiquity - It is that perfect level of good that it will see play up and down the power curve, and is not that expensive so that will be even more expanded.
Power - Average Multiplayer game is 4 that is typically 3 things from the hand and a creature depending on circumstances
Cost - Unlike its big brother Expropriate 6 mana sorcery for this much value is never a bad deal
Obviously the card has one gigantic downside in that if you have no cards in your hand it becomes flip for the first creature in your deck (having no cards in hand is a thing that did not however get in the way of Prophet of Kruphix being banned).
What do you guys think?
Never seen it nor heard of it being cast. Never seen it in a deck list. Ubiquity might be a tough sell.
Power isnt a ban criteria.
Sure it can get you 4 creatures, and then someone wipes.
I have no doubt of its power, but just like so many cards at 6 mana: have an answer, team up, or die.
Plus it gets worse as the game goes on. Doubtful it gets a serious consideration, let alone a ban.
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Yes. But please not with Tolarian Academy. I think Protean Hulk should come off before that, and then Gifts Ungiven, as neither fulfills the ban list requirements.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
If and when the RC does decide to unban a card in the future, I expect it to be something completely unforseen, like what happened with the Metalworker unban. Perhaps Time Vault, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, or Biorhythm, we'll have to wait and see what surprise they have planned.
I'm almost certain Biorythm wouldn't have been banned had it been printed now instead of when it was. With the huge amount of indestructible dudes that are playable now, it isn't even necessarily going to be able to win on the spot unless you're the one to play an exile/tuck wrath on top of it in the same turn. That's 14 mana unless you get lucky and get Hallowed Burial and then you have to get a creature into play yourself so it's probably going to run more than Emrakul unless you play stuff like Memnite. I think 3 card combos that cost over 15 mana would be really amusing. I really think it was a victim of the time when it was printed like Emrakul. Afterall, back when Emrakul was printed, we didn't really have all the game ending giant creatures and spells we have now. It was a big fish in a pond with very few fish at all. It was a time when Searing Wind was played. It was a time when there were groups that thought Time Stretch was the most broken card ever printed. Back then, if you wanted an army out of one card that could do serious damage, Crush of Wurms and Storm Herd was it. Emrakul is the most powerful creature, but we have a ton of cards that cost a lot less that can end the game just as easily now as Emrakul or Biorhythm. Of course, Emrakul is also even more dangerous now due to the legend rule change so even if it isn't played enough to make Bribery come back, if you play it out, you're opening yourself up to people making their own copy. Of course, some people will play it and some people will have a bad day, but without the time walk from casting it, there's actually a good chance it might even be the person that put it onto the field that has a bad day.
Idk it seems weird that it's never been banned to me, and I don't even see much discussion about it. There's essentially no fun way to use the card, it's basically the same as coalition victory where it's just a boring i-win button that serves no other purpose.
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Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
You said it yourself: It's pretty much ONLY a boring I-win card with degenerate use only (not counting the hilarity of Hind Mind shenanigans. As far as I know, the RC isn't worried too much any more about those types of cards.
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Can't say I've actually ever seen doomsday played at my LGS, so I guess it's not ruining actual games of commander, so maybe it's fair. I wonder how many people would play coalition victory were it legal.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
True, but CV can be jammed into quite literally any 5c deck, and if it resolves you probably just won the game. Doomsday requires 4-5 cards to make it work, and has opportunities for disruption after the spell resolves.
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Sway of the Stars may as well literally read "Restart the Game, everyone's life total becomes seven." It basically resets everything that happened before it was cast, and that's why it's banned.
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Yeah, it's got the same issue as Shahrazad: making an already-long game even longer.
On a side note, I think Coalition Victory may receive my vote as most deserving card on the banned list.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Those other cards do not allow for such. You cast them, and either the game literally ends right there and then - no questions asked, which even T&N can't guarantee - Or the game is reset on a precariously low amount of life with an equal amount of resources for everyone, thus nullifying the entire game that happened before. That is the difference.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Paradox Engine
Will it be powerful? Yes. Will it be centralizing? Time will tell.
This has potential to be Primeval Titan round 2 (okay fine round 3 or round 4), not because of its combo potential, but because of its generic goodness. Mana rocks are almost everywhere (almost equal to lands) which means this card will almost always benefit you even if you don't go infinite, the same way Titan does. Which means everyone might be itching to copy/steal/reanimate it for their own benefit, even if it doesn't combo off.
There are some things that go against that grain though, mainly:
1) It's an artifact, which is harder to copy/steal/reanimate than a creature. But at the same time, it's an artifact - any and every deck can run it as opposed to Titan and this gives it a larger base presence than Titan.
2) It requires existing mana rocks (or dorks) to substantially benefit from (even without combo). But at the same time, mana rocks are so common (dorks less so, but elves...) it's like saying Prophet needs creatures and lands to benefit from its effect.
It has a rather heavy dependence on artifact-related matters, which puts it at a tier lower than the cards already on the Banned List, but at the same time, are the artifacts involved already pretty much a mainstay as lands and creatures are?
Not advocating a quick-ban or any sorts, of course, but the card feels closer to the likes of Titan than the regular combo-pieces (DEN, Palinchron) because of its generic goodness rather than its combo-potential, so I think it has potential of being banned as a result.
As to Paradox Engine, I'd wager an average player can put 5+ mana on the board in terms of non-land sources. There are obviously expensive spells out of that reach, but none that I'd say put PE in a lesser category than Mana Reflection or Mirari's wake. They all share the same thing in common, you need something to cast with that heaping amount of mana, but where PE differs is that it can untap card advantage engines to keep the pedal down. Most are U, but some really powerful brown engines exist like Otherworld Atlas and Temple Bell. Or, just any buyback spell that costs the same or less than the amount of NL mana sources you have. Its not a matter of trying to break it, it'll just break on its own.
It needs to play tested for a while, but I ultimately agree with yash, it'll become the focal point of many games, much like PT.