Yea, that's the thing, right? I get that there's no cost to start the game with an 8-card hand, but it just seems a bit too knee-jerky to not at least debate/consider reintroducing 'banned as general'/'banned as companion'.
We cannot know if they did or did not debate it. Their strong stance on the BaaC list, and its removal, seems to show they want streamlined over complicated. But I think being slightly more complex would be of benifit.
By the way, as the rules of EDH stands, since the companion isn't technically in the deck, does colour identity count? I get that it probably should, but not sure if the rules technically say that too.
The comp rules do actually say it has to match color identity.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Ok my brief opinion of what should currently banned and/or unbanned in the format.
Banned: Thassa's Oracle . Reasons:
1) Never see people trying to actually playing fair with the card but just to exploit her "win the game" ability. It's also pretty unexciting without that clause, so wouldn't be a big miss for the format.
2) Only 2 cards to combo (the other one is Demonic Consultation or Tainted Pact )
3) Not only it's just 2 cards combo but the combo itself it's way too cheap (from 3 to 4 mana in total)
4) the combo is too versatile, too easy to make up, no need to any special deckbuild support. Literally any UBx deck can do it, regardless of their strategy. And those colors are the kings of tutors, card draw and counterspell protection for maximum consistency.
5) Can be stopped only by counterspells or very niched answers, once in motion. Thassa is worded in a way that any normal removal in response is totally useless. This alone should be a super red flag.
So, wincon too easy to make, too hard to stop and almost nobody use it in a fair way. What is the missing ban criteria exactly here?
What I would like to see unbanned: Balance: in the end it's just a mass removal, and mass removal are not worth a ban, even if undercosted and even if one-sided. A mass removal never win the game alone. Au contraire, could be very necessary to make order to somebody else having too much advantage over others. Also, monowhite decks sucks currently, and this card would be a great boon to them, sorry but Magus of the Balance is not a viable option (especially because of summoning sickness that gives opponents all the time to remove him) Braids, Cabal Minion : Not a fun card to have against, but not also something overwhelming as in the past, even if it's your general. People today can be much, much meanier with a dedicated Tergrid, God of Fright. Also, I think that adding a bit more of stax that slow down the game can actually be healthy for many too fast metas. It's not worse of many things already legal. Emrakul, the Aeons Thorns : Again, not a fun card to have against, but something extremely exciting to play for timmy players. The other titan eldrazi have annhilator 4, which doesn't make really that huge difference most of times in both terms of "I totally screwed the opponent" or "I didn't screw him enough". Easier to kill than Ulamog with any board wipe and the "extra turn" trigger it's actually very hard to pull off. If somebody use it as general, playgroups should just run more artifact hate to slow him down, which is generally useful anyway. Golos, Tireless Pilgrim can be played in very fun ways. Not worse than Maelstrom Wanderer Panoptic Mirror : Apparently people are afraid of this card because it combo with any extra turn spell. But this combo it's extremely slow (5 mana to cast mirror, at least five more mana to spend next turn to exile the turn spell, and even then, wait a third turn upkeep after that) and fragile (any removal or even bounce spell disrupt the combo easily), and also you can imprint much less threating spells like a ramp or draw spell. Compare to Isochron Scepter which is legal and used for many infinite or oppressive combos. Recurring Nightmare : probably this card is going infinite with something, but the same can be said with card like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Tooth and Nail. At least this is fun, because not only could do infinite things, but also silly graveyard shenaningans and who doesn't love graveyard shenaningans? Sway of the Stars : Now that they unbanned Worldfire I want to see this legal too. At least is slightly more interesting and I want to see how people can actually win with it. Sylvan Primordial and Primeval Titan : Let's make green great again. Those beaters don't win the game alone, are just pure and raw power and card advantage and perfectly fine for today standards. Yawgmoth's Bargain: I'm not sure if, in a world where Peer into the Abyss is still legal and didn't break the format, Yawgmoth would make that difference.
But your unban choices are not okay, other than maybe just Sway of the stars
I regularly play no-ban EDH all the time with my group of friends and I have have playtested for over a decade most of the cards I listed so I know what I'm talking about. Are you able to say the same? From the current banlist those are the ones that give less problems, especially Panoptic Mirror power level it's laughable from a competitive view to today speed and standards.
The main use of the ban list is to prevent people from "accidentally" breaking the format since it is impossible to stop a committed player from doing degenerate things.
Your opponent gets lucky opens with swamp, sol ringarcane signet (which happened twice last week at commander night) everyone else just plays their first land and passes, they swamp into Braids, Cabal Minion.. they win the game. Without trying to be mean at all.
Emrakul is a 2 hit commander that gives you an extra turn in which to do it.
Golos was literally just banned, easy ramp, grabbing utility lands removing 5 colour deck building creativity.
I think there are many ways you can accidentally a game with Panoptic Mirror even if you weren't trying but it is certainly not the most powerful card on the ban list.
The issue with recurring nightmare is finding a way to destroy it since any attempt to gets it bounced to hand. Just impossible to interact with.
I played commander when sylvan primordial was legal, it was a nightmare, firstly it's not a may so you have to ruin someone's day but the big issue is just how far ahead of everyone else it puts you. Have you been on the receiving end of Entomb, Exhume, Sylvan Primordial? Most people don't want turn 2 wins.
Primetime has similar issues as Golos but the frequency of Primetime into Cabal Coffers + Urbog was boring.
Your opponent gets lucky opens with swamp, sol ring arcane signet (which happened twice last week at commander night) everyone else just plays their first land and passes, they swamp into Braids, Cabal Minion.. they win the game. Without trying to be mean at all.
If you a Braids turn 1 it's a problem then you didn't see games where people play Trinisphere or Tangle Wire or Null Rod turn 1. Those are much more nightmarish for my standards. Believe me, a turn 1 Braids doesn't win the game at all, in the realm where with sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault etc, you're so ahead already in the first turns you don't even care with a such slow stax strategy. Also, removals are a thing, and planeswakers (that Braids can't hit) also.
Emrakul is a 2 hit commander that gives you an extra turn in which to do it.
Games almost always would end far before the player got the chance to even have 15 mana to hardcast emrakul believe me.
Golos was literally just banned
Well, that doesn't make his ban any less of an error. Golos can be used in fair ways, not only in oppressive modes. Or we should ban stuff like Kiki-Jiki with the same criteria
I think there are many ways you can accidentally a game with Panoptic Mirror even
Thats not a good reason. Also, SLOW. Slowest of any infinite combo already legal out there.
I played commander when sylvan primordial was legal, it was a nightmare
THat only means that you or your friends just can't handle it. To prove any of your argument doesn't hold water, If you have cockatrice I suggest you to fight against me with all the banned cards and you'll see with your eye that they aren't that big deal even in 1vs1, if opponents just is a good player with good cards to defend himself.
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The comp rules do actually say it has to match color identity.
Banned:
Thassa's Oracle . Reasons:
1) Never see people trying to actually playing fair with the card but just to exploit her "win the game" ability. It's also pretty unexciting without that clause, so wouldn't be a big miss for the format.
2) Only 2 cards to combo (the other one is Demonic Consultation or Tainted Pact )
3) Not only it's just 2 cards combo but the combo itself it's way too cheap (from 3 to 4 mana in total)
4) the combo is too versatile, too easy to make up, no need to any special deckbuild support. Literally any UBx deck can do it, regardless of their strategy. And those colors are the kings of tutors, card draw and counterspell protection for maximum consistency.
5) Can be stopped only by counterspells or very niched answers, once in motion. Thassa is worded in a way that any normal removal in response is totally useless. This alone should be a super red flag.
So, wincon too easy to make, too hard to stop and almost nobody use it in a fair way. What is the missing ban criteria exactly here?
What I would like to see unbanned:
Balance: in the end it's just a mass removal, and mass removal are not worth a ban, even if undercosted and even if one-sided. A mass removal never win the game alone. Au contraire, could be very necessary to make order to somebody else having too much advantage over others. Also, monowhite decks sucks currently, and this card would be a great boon to them, sorry but Magus of the Balance is not a viable option (especially because of summoning sickness that gives opponents all the time to remove him)
Braids, Cabal Minion : Not a fun card to have against, but not also something overwhelming as in the past, even if it's your general. People today can be much, much meanier with a dedicated Tergrid, God of Fright. Also, I think that adding a bit more of stax that slow down the game can actually be healthy for many too fast metas. It's not worse of many things already legal.
Emrakul, the Aeons Thorns : Again, not a fun card to have against, but something extremely exciting to play for timmy players. The other titan eldrazi have annhilator 4, which doesn't make really that huge difference most of times in both terms of "I totally screwed the opponent" or "I didn't screw him enough". Easier to kill than Ulamog with any board wipe and the "extra turn" trigger it's actually very hard to pull off. If somebody use it as general, playgroups should just run more artifact hate to slow him down, which is generally useful anyway.
Golos, Tireless Pilgrim can be played in very fun ways. Not worse than Maelstrom Wanderer
Panoptic Mirror : Apparently people are afraid of this card because it combo with any extra turn spell. But this combo it's extremely slow (5 mana to cast mirror, at least five more mana to spend next turn to exile the turn spell, and even then, wait a third turn upkeep after that) and fragile (any removal or even bounce spell disrupt the combo easily), and also you can imprint much less threating spells like a ramp or draw spell. Compare to Isochron Scepter which is legal and used for many infinite or oppressive combos.
Recurring Nightmare : probably this card is going infinite with something, but the same can be said with card like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Tooth and Nail. At least this is fun, because not only could do infinite things, but also silly graveyard shenaningans and who doesn't love graveyard shenaningans?
Sway of the Stars : Now that they unbanned Worldfire I want to see this legal too. At least is slightly more interesting and I want to see how people can actually win with it.
Sylvan Primordial and Primeval Titan : Let's make green great again. Those beaters don't win the game alone, are just pure and raw power and card advantage and perfectly fine for today standards.
Yawgmoth's Bargain: I'm not sure if, in a world where Peer into the Abyss is still legal and didn't break the format, Yawgmoth would make that difference.
But your unban choices are not okay, other than maybe just Sway of the stars
Tergrid, God of Fright actually already got banned at my LGS so I guess that is a ban option if anything
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I regularly play no-ban EDH all the time with my group of friends and I have have playtested for over a decade most of the cards I listed so I know what I'm talking about. Are you able to say the same? From the current banlist those are the ones that give less problems, especially Panoptic Mirror power level it's laughable from a competitive view to today speed and standards.
Your opponent gets lucky opens with swamp, sol ring arcane signet (which happened twice last week at commander night) everyone else just plays their first land and passes, they swamp into Braids, Cabal Minion.. they win the game. Without trying to be mean at all.
Emrakul is a 2 hit commander that gives you an extra turn in which to do it.
Golos was literally just banned, easy ramp, grabbing utility lands removing 5 colour deck building creativity.
I think there are many ways you can accidentally a game with Panoptic Mirror even if you weren't trying but it is certainly not the most powerful card on the ban list.
The issue with recurring nightmare is finding a way to destroy it since any attempt to gets it bounced to hand. Just impossible to interact with.
I played commander when sylvan primordial was legal, it was a nightmare, firstly it's not a may so you have to ruin someone's day but the big issue is just how far ahead of everyone else it puts you. Have you been on the receiving end of Entomb, Exhume, Sylvan Primordial? Most people don't want turn 2 wins.
Primetime has similar issues as Golos but the frequency of Primetime into Cabal Coffers + Urbog was boring.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
If you a Braids turn 1 it's a problem then you didn't see games where people play Trinisphere or Tangle Wire or Null Rod turn 1. Those are much more nightmarish for my standards. Believe me, a turn 1 Braids doesn't win the game at all, in the realm where with sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault etc, you're so ahead already in the first turns you don't even care with a such slow stax strategy. Also, removals are a thing, and planeswakers (that Braids can't hit) also.
Games almost always would end far before the player got the chance to even have 15 mana to hardcast emrakul believe me.
Well, that doesn't make his ban any less of an error. Golos can be used in fair ways, not only in oppressive modes. Or we should ban stuff like Kiki-Jiki with the same criteria
Thats not a good reason. Also, SLOW. Slowest of any infinite combo already legal out there.
THat only means that you or your friends just can't handle it. To prove any of your argument doesn't hold water, If you have cockatrice I suggest you to fight against me with all the banned cards and you'll see with your eye that they aren't that big deal even in 1vs1, if opponents just is a good player with good cards to defend himself.