It's been over 37 months since I started the SCD for Iona and 34 months since we all basically exhausted every argument regarding the card in one of the longer threads in this subforum. Even before I started the thread I sort of resigned myself to fate that because it wasn't played as much and even when it was played it doesn't always create the feel-bad/inverse archenemy scenario, so I only had the point that the scenario itself was bad enough as an experience that the other scenarios aren't exactly saving graces, especially for a card not really played to be a saving grace anyway.
What insight can you give that changed the stance of what looks like everyone on the RC given the following:
2015 was when ugin was printed and at the time Sheldon said the following:
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon: Sure, it will leave artifacts and Eldrazi, and sure, it will hit only stuff below a certain converted mana cost, so it's not a complete World Slayer, but it's close enough. I've said before that it probably provided the final nail in the coffin making sure that Painter's Servant never comes off the banned list. I have no reason to move off that stance.
and Papa funk said this back in '13
PS is a card where most of the benign interactions are griefy and the less benign ones really suck. The number of OK interactions that aren't basically irrelevant is teeny and nobody can claim with a straight face that those are the ones that'll be used. Sounds like a totally awesome card to have in casual play.
and Ban Ki-moon said this
Painter's Servant is banned, and should stay banned, because almost every purpose it can serve reduces interaction between players and/or removes lines of play as options. Painter's Servant almost always moves the game into a more linear, forced state, taking away from "Player A beat Player B" while building on "Player A's deck beat Player B's deck." Building a Painter's Servant deck is way more fun than playing with the card in a game.
Painter's Servant is definitely my least-favourite card to talk about, since the factors that keep it banned are rarely addressed directly by the people who want to play with it. Please note that power level, as always, isn't all that relevant to this issue.
Maybe it's because I'm not a card guru but what
We feel as though there are now more weird and fun uses for the card than there are dangerous ones.
Lost one of the better just-choke-the-hard-combo-player cards in Iona while watching those same decks get access to Painter's/Ugin because I know, like, one person that will actually be a goof with PS
This is one of those moments where I realize that whoever has the ear of the RC plays with vastly different people than I do
Not sad about Paradox Engine, though. I don't mind losing to it, I just mind people acting surprised that, wow, they won when they resolved PE, great job!!
What insight can you give that changed the stance of what looks like everyone on the RC given the following (many quotes)?
There has been strong and virtually unanimous support among CAG members for unbanning this card since the inception of the group.
I can only speak for myself and not for the rest of the RC/CAG, but my own personal reasons for wanting Painter's Servant unbanned are because I felt that it was unfairly banned because it was a strong enabler rather than the dangerous part of any potential combo. No other cards are banned for this reason, so it was out of place on the ban list. While I understand the past concerns of the RC, I feel like the format has changed to be much more interactive in the past few years, with a ton more quality options for removal and counterspells and the like to fight combos. Additionally, short of Tooth & Nail into Iona and Painter, there's no truly busted interaction with the card that can't be better replicated cheaper and with fewer cards in other ways. Additionally, Painter's Servant is such a unique card that it opens up a ton of space for casual brewers to really figure out interesting interactions for the card. The revision to the format's philosophy document also opened up more space to set it free.
What insight can you give that changed the stance of what looks like everyone on the RC given the following (many quotes)?
There has been strong and virtually unanimous support among CAG members for unbanning this card since the inception of the group.
I can only speak for myself and not for the rest of the RC/CAG, but my own personal reasons for wanting Painter's Servant unbanned are because I felt that it was unfairly banned because it was a strong enabler rather than the dangerous part of any potential combo. No other cards are banned for this reason, so it was out of place on the ban list. While I understand the past concerns of the RC, I feel like the format has changed to be much more interactive in the past few years, with a ton more quality options for removal and counterspells and the like to fight combos. Additionally, short of Tooth & Nail into Iona and Painter, there's no truly busted interaction with the card that can't be better replicated cheaper and with fewer cards in other ways. Additionally, Painter's Servant is such a unique card that it opens up a ton of space for casual brewers to really figure out interesting interactions for the card. The revision to the format's philosophy document also opened up more space to set it free.
but my own personal reasons for wanting Painter's Servant unbanned are because I felt that it was unfairly banned because it was a strong enabler rather than the dangerous part of any potential combo. No other cards are banned for this reason, so it was out of place on the ban list.
I'm frowning very hard at this but at least you're open in your reasoning and I appreciate that
What JqlGirl said. Card has always been borderline and the CAG convinced us that the Johnny opportunities outweighed the potential downsides.
I'd say that of the three, this is the one we're most nervous about, but I'm excited to see where it goes.
I think Josh made good points in his podcast yesterday. There's definitely room for "oops we made a mistake", but most of the cards that you'd run alongside it are margin9on their own, and if you're tutoring for that combo there are plenty of combos you can tutor for. The legendary creatures is going to be the biggest litmus test.
so what I have gathered from this is that the CAG seems like a group of lawyers and the RC is the supreme court,who hears the "arguments" and then goes to chambers to discuss and vote and write up the decision. With that in mind, it's easier for me to understand how the CAG and RC works.
What JqlGirl said. Card has always been borderline and the CAG convinced us that the Johnny opportunities outweighed the potential downsides.
I'd say that of the three, this is the one we're most nervous about, but I'm excited to see where it goes.
'Ugin is the nail in the coffin of Painter's Servant' sure does not sound borderline. I am all for 'hey we were wrong', but revisionist history seems uncool.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
For what it’s worth (Not much I know). One of the best parts of EDH is being able to play with all the cards I’ve had in my collection not available in type 2 or extended formats. I really enjoy the format the way it is, and would be hugely disappointed if they to make format changing bans like fast mana or reducing life totals. I do however still contest the poison damage should be bumped to 20.
What happened here? Is nobody talking about bans or unbans anymore?
I wanted some to get some feedback on Cabal Coffers. It's a card that I've noticed has been on quite the rise at my LGS with several people all playing it in their B/x decks for the combo with Urborg. It doesn't seem like it's that powerful a card for the first 4-5 turns of the game, but I've been watching players get very ahead with it starting on about turn 6+ and it's often the #1 tutor target for the decks I see it used in.
Given how it's also got a very high price tag for an uncommon and even the black X spells that are useful with it have shot up in price significantly. I'm leaning to the position that it might just be too strong for commander.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
When you activate Coffers, you get one mana for each swamp you control, and then those swamps can also each tap for one mana, effectively getting you 2 mana per swamp.
It costs no mana to play Coffers (though it does cost your land drop), which is one of its strengths. On the other hand, it doesn't have to cost mana to destroy Coffers either (using cards like Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter, etc.)
Outside mono-black (and even in some mono-black decks), Coffers is actually often weaker than its reputation suggests if it doesn't have Urborg backup. Because it does not tap for mana on its own and costs 2 mana to activate its ability, you need three swamps to just break even (making Coffers act as a "bad swamp" in that case). With 4 swamps, Coffers is only producing 1 more mana than you would have if it had been a basic Swamp instead. You need 6 swamps plus Coffers to hit double-digit mana (6 from Coffers plus 4 from the swamps not used to activate Coffers).
Urborg makes things easier, since both Urborg and Coffers itself get to be swamps, but that just means you can branch out from basics and fetchable duals, and then you're just getting 1 more mana from Coffers than if Urborg had been a basic Swamp. It still takes 7 lands (including Coffers+Urborg) to reach double-digit mana, since Coffers taps to produce its mass of black mana.
A card that I'd like to see come off the Banned List one day is Recurring Nightmare (RN). I don't believe that it's the boogeyman that it once was. While I acknowledge that some games will devolve into "activate fests" I think that we've gotten to the point where there's both a healthy amount of counter-play and more of a desire by the community to avoid cutthroat builds and sequences in favor of more interactive gameplay.
While counterspells have always been relatively popular in EDH I feel that it took far too long for targeted discard and graveyard hate to make their way into maindecks. Scavenger Grounds, Relic of Progenitus, Duress, Thoughtseize, Scavenging Ooze, Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void and throngs of other staples are effective counter-measures to these types of effects and, more importantly, they're extremely prevalent in EDH given their widespread appeal and broad applications. That is, these are cards that are already routinely being played in maindecks as answers to other cards and they're more than happy to sweep RN up in the process. I want to stress that while permission was always around I don't feel that discard was and Duress, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Unmask etc. are ideal at keeping these type of spells in check and are now seeing significantly more play.
Moreover, Wizards continues to ratchet both the quantity and quality of hate cards printed in the form of things like Deafening Silence, Hushbringer, Damping Sphere and Ashiok, Dream Render just to name a couple of staples printed in the past year. Again, it's important to stress that these cards are just plain "good in EDH" as opposed to being "good against RN" so it's not as though people are warping their decks to include them. They're excellent at hindering throngs of powerful play patterns that could otherwise run away with the game.
Furthermore, Wizards has increasingly started to print "diplomacy" cards like Scheming Symmetry, Wishclaw Talisman and Out of Bounds that can help deal with problematic scenarios. I absolutely love being able to flip these kinds of cards face up and ask "who can help me deal with this?" when something troublesome threatens to run away with the game. I do my part when able but otherwise I'm more than happy to ship someone a Wishclaw Talisman to ensure that we can keep the game going. This helps to ensure that no single card like Humility or Winter Orb can end the game.
Next, I'll point to cards like Luminarch Ascension, Seasons Past and Muldrotha, the Gravetide as evidence that powerful mana sinks can exist peacefully in the format. I have seen countless games open with a turn 1-2 Luminarch Ascension (and/or games where someone sticks one early) and by no means were they functionally over. Far more often than not the Ascension players were forced to do things other than churn Angels for the entire game. I feel as though we've gotten to the point where most players have the tools and knowledge to exploit predictable and repetitive game actions which makes them significantly less problematic than they once were. Believe me when I say that I understand that the big difference here is that Luminarch Ascension dies to removal whereas Recurring Nightmare doesn't but Seasons Past (+ Demonic Tutor or any other tutor) is extremely similar and reasonably balanced in EDH even though you can spend your mana doing the same things every turn.
Lastly, I believe that we've reached the point where interaction and removal has enough incidental exile effects to keep these effects in check. Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Despark, Reality Shift, Return to Nature, Chaos Warp, Anguished Unmaking, Ravenous Slime, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Utter End, the list of cards that incidentally shut RN loops down is nearly endless. Not that all of these cards kill it dead or anything, far from it, but they buy the table enough time to find something more permanent like Duress. This means that even in games where RN could be problematic it often won't be because enough players will have enough relevant interaction to ensure that it's kept in check.
The biggest strike against RN is that it is extremely repetitive. It creates a loop that does not go arbitrary (without other chicanery in the mix anyway), which isn't ideal. If RN is working, you are just repeatedly casting RN for the rest of the game until you no longer need to, and usually cycling through the same 2-3 creatures.
I don't think that this is enough to keep it banned any longer. We already have Meren being repetitive graveyard city and Whisper can pull of an RN impression easily enough, when she doesn't obsolete it that is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I don't think that this is enough to keep it banned any longer. We already have Meren being repetitive graveyard city...
Agreed. I draw the comparison to Seasons Past because I'm sure we've all played against the Seasons Past + tutor combo that lets you cast anything in your GY every turn if desired. Including the same spells over and over again. These types of sequences aren't overly problematic in my experience.
The expectation on my part is no changes each cycle. It is what it is, unless something like Griselbrand shows up and so on.
As for Recurring Nightmare being unbanned, no thanks. With the craziness coming out in the new set, along with so many ETB triggers already existing, it would just centralize games in a hurry. Yes, there's a lot of 'yard hate being played but you need to respond while RN is on the stack, right? Because then the player gets priority, returns it to hand as part of use, and even if you exile something in response they can still re-start.
As someone who used this in Duel (admittedly a format with very few tutors) to swamp Prime Time and Sundering Titan, and then moved to other utility stuff, it's just a bad feeling for the other player as well. Do not want.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
I was wondering. This lutri fellow... Is it really that banworthy? Having a 101st card in the deck, a non-mind twistable 3 mana fork is good for sure, but is it really that format warping that it's worth a ban?
The last couple of times i brought up a card about whether its worth a ban or not got me a lot of grief. I'm not intending this as a "hot take", but more as a questioning if this is worth the knee-jerk reaction it caused.
Before i continue, i feel like i should state that my general opinion for all formats is that cards shouldn't in general be banned as much as possible. I'd always rather have a smaller banlist than a huge one.
My thinking is this:
1. (strongest argument, i think) the cost of having it is basically 0. Yep, that's a thing. But then again, every (or at least many) UR deck plays sol ring. In fact, almost every deck plays sol ring if the player has a copy. Does that make it banworthy too? It's not the same cost for sure, but if we want to have more diversified deckbuilding, i'm sitting on the side of using some other method outside of banning to achieve this.
2. it gives the UR players a 101st card that makes their starting hand of 8. Sure, that's a big bump up. But also at the potential ire/cost of everyone else at the table probably being more likely to target you. Yea, it's not a strong argument on my side, but EDH is still a more social game than a 1v1 zero-sum kinda deal.
3. A one-time guaranteed fork is good. But is it really going to break the game as we know it? As of now, I can't think of any 2-card combos that goes with this lutri. 3 or more though, that's easy to come up with.
Stuff like primeval titan are really good; players used to tutor up for it, copy it, do crazy shenanigans with it. That caused the game to warp around who had the titan.
does dualcaster mage have the same warping effect on the game? unless we're talking specific combos around it, its not something i've experienced. And dualcaster mage has the added bonus of copying an opponent's spell if need be (its the closest i can think of to lutri). Lutri doesn't have the ability to 'combo off' with the opponent's stuff.
I can also say, that i've a lord of tresserhorn "when it dies-trigger-tribal" deck that most likely won't have any real use for lutri. It's in colour, but all the instant and sorceries i have aren't really anything i'd wanna copy (double up ruination?) and a 3 mana 3/2 surprise blocker is ok at best (not very surprising either). Yea, it's a very weird situation and not very relevant to the more competitive deckbuilders out there. But i'm under the impression that the RC doesn't dedicate the banlist to the upper echelon of competitive metas.
It just feels a shame when players can't use stuff like braids or lutri because of format limitations. i understand that having specific rules for cards like "can't be used as a commander" or "can't be used as a companion" are messy, but easy to implement in local groups. But i'd imagine there are many playgroups that take the rulings of the RC as gospel with no room for meta-calls. I know my group can be resistent to changes too. And I wanna see all the cards being used as much as possible. Especially the newer ones that have never (and probably will never) show their true potential in EDH.
There are some big differences between Lutri and Sol Ring in terms of the ubiquity argument.
1) Lutri starts in the hand, not the deck. Sol ring may be in nearly every deck, but it doesn't get drawn most games, or gets drawn at some late point where it's less relevant. Lutri means essentially every game against RU, it's going to be cast, at whatever time is most advantageous. So for UR decks it will come up much, much more often.
2) That ubiquity will almost certainly drastically warp every RU deck. Suddenly having cheap spells that are powerful when copied is going to be a lot more valuable, even for commanders that don't care about spells normally.
3) I have decks that don't run sol ring. It's rare, but on occasion it's not worth it. Or at least it's debatable. There is SOME tradeoff between running sol ring vs something else. Not including Lutri in every RU deck is just a straight-up mistake because there is literally zero downside.
4) Sol ring is the (2nd) best mana rock, but it's still just a mana rock. Most decks run mana rocks, sol ring happens to be the (2nd) best, but it doesn't really change what those decks are doing, it just does it better. Same for how command tower is just a better land. Ubiquity isn't really as much of a problem if it's just the best at doing something every deck wants to do.
5) I know myself, and a lot of other people, enjoy optimizing their decks, and it's pretty annoying to think that literally every UR deck until the end of time is going to need to acquire a Lutri to be optimized, especially if it doesn't get reprinted.
I just think the 'no downside' was too much for even people who push Sol Ring. No way to interact outside counter-magic (not even discard or exile interaction) on a fairly powerful spell just seems dumb. I would have preferred it banned as companion (or just not allow companion to work), but it makes sense.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I just think the 'no downside' was too much for even people who push Sol Ring. No way to interact outside counter-magic (not even discard or exile interaction) on a fairly powerful spell just seems dumb. I would have preferred it banned as companion (or just not allow companion to work), but it makes sense.
Yea, that's the thing, right? I get that there's no cost to start the game with an 8-card hand, but it just seems a bit too knee-jerky to not at least debate/consider reintroducing 'banned as general'/'banned as companion'.
By the way, as the rules of EDH stands, since the companion isn't technically in the deck, does colour identity count? I get that it probably should, but not sure if the rules technically say that too.
Yea, that's the thing, right? I get that there's no cost to start the game with an 8-card hand, but it just seems a bit too knee-jerky to not at least debate/consider reintroducing 'banned as general'/'banned as companion'.
By the way, as the rules of EDH stands, since the companion isn't technically in the deck, does colour identity count? I get that it probably should, but not sure if the rules technically say that too.
I'm like 99% sure it will care about colour identity (and presumably can't be run if the companion is also a card in the deck) but we won't know what the exact rule change is until the 20th (I think that's the date).
Banned as a companion would be a whole different list since presumably Lutri would be acceptable as a commander. So that's a whole separate list that will presumably only ever have one card on it. Imo that would be a waste of time. As was BaaC, though less so. Those cards were tolerable in the 99 but they weren't fun. T2 braids is as annoying from the 99 as it is from the CZ, just less consistent. I don't see any reason to make a special rule just to keep a few cards semi-legal that aren't really contributing to the format in a positive way anyway.
Your toil was not in vain! Huzzah!
magicjudge.tumblr.com
GWU Angus Mackenzie's Fog of War GWU / B Sheoldred's Sleepless Cemetery B / R Ashling's Purifying Pilgrimage R
U Unesh's Sphinx Storm U / R Ib's Goblins: What It Says On The Tin R / UR Okaun & Zndrsplt Flip Out UR
Oathbreaker: UB Ashiok's Persistent Nightmare UB
What insight can you give that changed the stance of what looks like everyone on the RC given the following:
2015 was when ugin was printed and at the time Sheldon said the following:
and Papa funk said this back in '13
and Ban Ki-moon said this
Maybe it's because I'm not a card guru but what were you all thinking of?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Lost one of the better just-choke-the-hard-combo-player cards in Iona while watching those same decks get access to Painter's/Ugin because I know, like, one person that will actually be a goof with PS
This is one of those moments where I realize that whoever has the ear of the RC plays with vastly different people than I do
Not sad about Paradox Engine, though. I don't mind losing to it, I just mind people acting surprised that, wow, they won when they resolved PE, great job!!
There has been strong and virtually unanimous support among CAG members for unbanning this card since the inception of the group.
I can only speak for myself and not for the rest of the RC/CAG, but my own personal reasons for wanting Painter's Servant unbanned are because I felt that it was unfairly banned because it was a strong enabler rather than the dangerous part of any potential combo. No other cards are banned for this reason, so it was out of place on the ban list. While I understand the past concerns of the RC, I feel like the format has changed to be much more interactive in the past few years, with a ton more quality options for removal and counterspells and the like to fight combos. Additionally, short of Tooth & Nail into Iona and Painter, there's no truly busted interaction with the card that can't be better replicated cheaper and with fewer cards in other ways. Additionally, Painter's Servant is such a unique card that it opens up a ton of space for casual brewers to really figure out interesting interactions for the card. The revision to the format's philosophy document also opened up more space to set it free.
magicjudge.tumblr.com
GWU Angus Mackenzie's Fog of War GWU / B Sheoldred's Sleepless Cemetery B / R Ashling's Purifying Pilgrimage R
U Unesh's Sphinx Storm U / R Ib's Goblins: What It Says On The Tin R / UR Okaun & Zndrsplt Flip Out UR
Oathbreaker: UB Ashiok's Persistent Nightmare UB
Thank you for your insight
I'm frowning very hard at this but at least you're open in your reasoning and I appreciate that
I'd say that of the three, this is the one we're most nervous about, but I'm excited to see where it goes.
I think Josh made good points in his podcast yesterday. There's definitely room for "oops we made a mistake", but most of the cards that you'd run alongside it are margin9on their own, and if you're tutoring for that combo there are plenty of combos you can tutor for. The legendary creatures is going to be the biggest litmus test.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
'Ugin is the nail in the coffin of Painter's Servant' sure does not sound borderline. I am all for 'hey we were wrong', but revisionist history seems uncool.
I wanted some to get some feedback on Cabal Coffers. It's a card that I've noticed has been on quite the rise at my LGS with several people all playing it in their B/x decks for the combo with Urborg. It doesn't seem like it's that powerful a card for the first 4-5 turns of the game, but I've been watching players get very ahead with it starting on about turn 6+ and it's often the #1 tutor target for the decks I see it used in.
Given how it's also got a very high price tag for an uncommon and even the black X spells that are useful with it have shot up in price significantly. I'm leaning to the position that it might just be too strong for commander.
Coffers is OK, but has no real protection, kill it. Every Commander deck should be able to deal with 1-3 problem lands.
When you activate Coffers, you get one mana for each swamp you control, and then those swamps can also each tap for one mana, effectively getting you 2 mana per swamp.
It costs no mana to play Coffers (though it does cost your land drop), which is one of its strengths. On the other hand, it doesn't have to cost mana to destroy Coffers either (using cards like Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter, etc.)
Outside mono-black (and even in some mono-black decks), Coffers is actually often weaker than its reputation suggests if it doesn't have Urborg backup. Because it does not tap for mana on its own and costs 2 mana to activate its ability, you need three swamps to just break even (making Coffers act as a "bad swamp" in that case). With 4 swamps, Coffers is only producing 1 more mana than you would have if it had been a basic Swamp instead. You need 6 swamps plus Coffers to hit double-digit mana (6 from Coffers plus 4 from the swamps not used to activate Coffers).
Urborg makes things easier, since both Urborg and Coffers itself get to be swamps, but that just means you can branch out from basics and fetchable duals, and then you're just getting 1 more mana from Coffers than if Urborg had been a basic Swamp. It still takes 7 lands (including Coffers+Urborg) to reach double-digit mana, since Coffers taps to produce its mass of black mana.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
In terms of gameplay, Recurring Nightmare is a powerful and iconic card that shines in Reanimator-style decks where it can endless abuse powerful ETB/dies effects on creatures such as Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Bane of Progress, Sepulchral Primordial, Ashen Rider, Woodfall Primus, etc. These haymakers and many more can be assembled via tutors such as Vampiric Tutor, Entomb, Demonic Tutor, Survival of the Fittest, Buried Alive, Jarad's Orders, Final Parting and throngs of other staples to enact typical Reanimator shenanigans. It's not only powerful but relatively open-ended which means that decks of all shapes and sizes can take advantage of it. There's also enough setup cost that it can't reliably run away with the game and it's niche enough that it could never be considered an auto-include.
While counterspells have always been relatively popular in EDH I feel that it took far too long for targeted discard and graveyard hate to make their way into maindecks. Scavenger Grounds, Relic of Progenitus, Duress, Thoughtseize, Scavenging Ooze, Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void and throngs of other staples are effective counter-measures to these types of effects and, more importantly, they're extremely prevalent in EDH given their widespread appeal and broad applications. That is, these are cards that are already routinely being played in maindecks as answers to other cards and they're more than happy to sweep RN up in the process. I want to stress that while permission was always around I don't feel that discard was and Duress, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Unmask etc. are ideal at keeping these type of spells in check and are now seeing significantly more play.
Moreover, Wizards continues to ratchet both the quantity and quality of hate cards printed in the form of things like Deafening Silence, Hushbringer, Damping Sphere and Ashiok, Dream Render just to name a couple of staples printed in the past year. Again, it's important to stress that these cards are just plain "good in EDH" as opposed to being "good against RN" so it's not as though people are warping their decks to include them. They're excellent at hindering throngs of powerful play patterns that could otherwise run away with the game.
Furthermore, Wizards has increasingly started to print "diplomacy" cards like Scheming Symmetry, Wishclaw Talisman and Out of Bounds that can help deal with problematic scenarios. I absolutely love being able to flip these kinds of cards face up and ask "who can help me deal with this?" when something troublesome threatens to run away with the game. I do my part when able but otherwise I'm more than happy to ship someone a Wishclaw Talisman to ensure that we can keep the game going. This helps to ensure that no single card like Humility or Winter Orb can end the game.
Next, I'll point to cards like Luminarch Ascension, Seasons Past and Muldrotha, the Gravetide as evidence that powerful mana sinks can exist peacefully in the format. I have seen countless games open with a turn 1-2 Luminarch Ascension (and/or games where someone sticks one early) and by no means were they functionally over. Far more often than not the Ascension players were forced to do things other than churn Angels for the entire game. I feel as though we've gotten to the point where most players have the tools and knowledge to exploit predictable and repetitive game actions which makes them significantly less problematic than they once were. Believe me when I say that I understand that the big difference here is that Luminarch Ascension dies to removal whereas Recurring Nightmare doesn't but Seasons Past (+ Demonic Tutor or any other tutor) is extremely similar and reasonably balanced in EDH even though you can spend your mana doing the same things every turn.
Lastly, I believe that we've reached the point where interaction and removal has enough incidental exile effects to keep these effects in check. Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Despark, Reality Shift, Return to Nature, Chaos Warp, Anguished Unmaking, Ravenous Slime, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Utter End, the list of cards that incidentally shut RN loops down is nearly endless. Not that all of these cards kill it dead or anything, far from it, but they buy the table enough time to find something more permanent like Duress. This means that even in games where RN could be problematic it often won't be because enough players will have enough relevant interaction to ensure that it's kept in check.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I don't think that this is enough to keep it banned any longer. We already have Meren being repetitive graveyard city and Whisper can pull of an RN impression easily enough, when she doesn't obsolete it that is.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Agreed. I draw the comparison to Seasons Past because I'm sure we've all played against the Seasons Past + tutor combo that lets you cast anything in your GY every turn if desired. Including the same spells over and over again. These types of sequences aren't overly problematic in my experience.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
As for Recurring Nightmare being unbanned, no thanks. With the craziness coming out in the new set, along with so many ETB triggers already existing, it would just centralize games in a hurry. Yes, there's a lot of 'yard hate being played but you need to respond while RN is on the stack, right? Because then the player gets priority, returns it to hand as part of use, and even if you exile something in response they can still re-start.
As someone who used this in Duel (admittedly a format with very few tutors) to swamp Prime Time and Sundering Titan, and then moved to other utility stuff, it's just a bad feeling for the other player as well. Do not want.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
The last couple of times i brought up a card about whether its worth a ban or not got me a lot of grief. I'm not intending this as a "hot take", but more as a questioning if this is worth the knee-jerk reaction it caused.
Before i continue, i feel like i should state that my general opinion for all formats is that cards shouldn't in general be banned as much as possible. I'd always rather have a smaller banlist than a huge one.
My thinking is this:
1. (strongest argument, i think) the cost of having it is basically 0. Yep, that's a thing. But then again, every (or at least many) UR deck plays sol ring. In fact, almost every deck plays sol ring if the player has a copy. Does that make it banworthy too? It's not the same cost for sure, but if we want to have more diversified deckbuilding, i'm sitting on the side of using some other method outside of banning to achieve this.
2. it gives the UR players a 101st card that makes their starting hand of 8. Sure, that's a big bump up. But also at the potential ire/cost of everyone else at the table probably being more likely to target you. Yea, it's not a strong argument on my side, but EDH is still a more social game than a 1v1 zero-sum kinda deal.
3. A one-time guaranteed fork is good. But is it really going to break the game as we know it? As of now, I can't think of any 2-card combos that goes with this lutri. 3 or more though, that's easy to come up with.
Stuff like primeval titan are really good; players used to tutor up for it, copy it, do crazy shenanigans with it. That caused the game to warp around who had the titan.
does dualcaster mage have the same warping effect on the game? unless we're talking specific combos around it, its not something i've experienced. And dualcaster mage has the added bonus of copying an opponent's spell if need be (its the closest i can think of to lutri). Lutri doesn't have the ability to 'combo off' with the opponent's stuff.
I can also say, that i've a lord of tresserhorn "when it dies-trigger-tribal" deck that most likely won't have any real use for lutri. It's in colour, but all the instant and sorceries i have aren't really anything i'd wanna copy (double up ruination?) and a 3 mana 3/2 surprise blocker is ok at best (not very surprising either). Yea, it's a very weird situation and not very relevant to the more competitive deckbuilders out there. But i'm under the impression that the RC doesn't dedicate the banlist to the upper echelon of competitive metas.
It just feels a shame when players can't use stuff like braids or lutri because of format limitations. i understand that having specific rules for cards like "can't be used as a commander" or "can't be used as a companion" are messy, but easy to implement in local groups. But i'd imagine there are many playgroups that take the rulings of the RC as gospel with no room for meta-calls. I know my group can be resistent to changes too. And I wanna see all the cards being used as much as possible. Especially the newer ones that have never (and probably will never) show their true potential in EDH.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
1) Lutri starts in the hand, not the deck. Sol ring may be in nearly every deck, but it doesn't get drawn most games, or gets drawn at some late point where it's less relevant. Lutri means essentially every game against RU, it's going to be cast, at whatever time is most advantageous. So for UR decks it will come up much, much more often.
2) That ubiquity will almost certainly drastically warp every RU deck. Suddenly having cheap spells that are powerful when copied is going to be a lot more valuable, even for commanders that don't care about spells normally.
3) I have decks that don't run sol ring. It's rare, but on occasion it's not worth it. Or at least it's debatable. There is SOME tradeoff between running sol ring vs something else. Not including Lutri in every RU deck is just a straight-up mistake because there is literally zero downside.
4) Sol ring is the (2nd) best mana rock, but it's still just a mana rock. Most decks run mana rocks, sol ring happens to be the (2nd) best, but it doesn't really change what those decks are doing, it just does it better. Same for how command tower is just a better land. Ubiquity isn't really as much of a problem if it's just the best at doing something every deck wants to do.
5) I know myself, and a lot of other people, enjoy optimizing their decks, and it's pretty annoying to think that literally every UR deck until the end of time is going to need to acquire a Lutri to be optimized, especially if it doesn't get reprinted.
6) Anyway Sol ring probably should be banned LOL.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Yea, that's the thing, right? I get that there's no cost to start the game with an 8-card hand, but it just seems a bit too knee-jerky to not at least debate/consider reintroducing 'banned as general'/'banned as companion'.
By the way, as the rules of EDH stands, since the companion isn't technically in the deck, does colour identity count? I get that it probably should, but not sure if the rules technically say that too.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Banned as a companion would be a whole different list since presumably Lutri would be acceptable as a commander. So that's a whole separate list that will presumably only ever have one card on it. Imo that would be a waste of time. As was BaaC, though less so. Those cards were tolerable in the 99 but they weren't fun. T2 braids is as annoying from the 99 as it is from the CZ, just less consistent. I don't see any reason to make a special rule just to keep a few cards semi-legal that aren't really contributing to the format in a positive way anyway.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6