Well, this is the “General Discussion of the official Multiplayer Banlist” thread, not the Coalition Victory SCD thread. The problem here is it’s the exact same user bringing up the same tired points, just in a new thread because he/she has been ***** down at every turn in the appropriate thread.
Like, hop on over to that thread. Pretty sure you’d see the exact same back and forth there as you are here, just about this one card.
The only thing memorable about these games is that fast mana was the deciding factor in who won the game. Well, I guess the Maelstrom Wanderer player giving me ***** for not doing much in games 1 and 2 being utterly dominated by me in game 3 was satisfying, but that's neither here nor there.
As much as I agree, I wonder if it's even possible from a political standpoint. I think there are enough "EDH is about sweet cards like sol ring! If I can't play sol ring I QUIT!" kind of people that banning sol ring could put a serious dent in the number of players. Although maybe we're better off without them.
The only thing memorable about these games is that fast mana was the deciding factor in who won the game. Well, I guess the Maelstrom Wanderer player giving me ***** for not doing much in games 1 and 2 being utterly dominated by me in game 3 was satisfying, but that's neither here nor there.
How do these anecdotes equate to fast mana being the problem? Nobody had lost life, nothing of significance had been played. Th MW deck, sure, that snowballs fast, but everything else is prime for an answer that shifts the focus away from fast mana being the problem here. This is essentially judging a book by its cover, in the most extreme way.
I’m all for fast mana being banned, but nothing in this scenario makes a compelling case for it actually being banned.
As much as I agree, I wonder if it's even possible from a political standpoint. I think there are enough "EDH is about sweet cards like sol ring! If I can't play sol ring I QUIT!" kind of people that banning sol ring could put a serious dent in the number of players. Although maybe we're better off without them.
This is a good point. The format is entrenched in its current philosophy and any fundamental change to it is likely to make some people angry, and I can honestly understand why. No one likes having their toys taken away. That said, playing nongames because someone happened to draw into their fast mana is a big drawback to the format for me. I just want to play moderately long games with a healthy amount of back and forth and players jockeying for the lead, not get blown out because someone ramped and ramped into vomiting out their hand.
I really think that magic players recognize the power of Sol Ring and not be bitter about it being banned. Fast mana is broken, and this is true at cEDH or at the kitchen table.
I would support a banning. While Glorious Goose gave an example where each player drew fast mana and each player got to do their thing and everyone won a game, the problem is that those games were not fun because one person was so far ahead.
People may be bitter about the devaluation of their Mana Crypts though. I have 3 of them. Probably should sell them.
Nobody had lost life, nothing of significance had been played. Th MW deck, sure, that snowballs fast, but everything else is prime for an answer that shifts the focus away from fast mana being the problem here. This is essentially judging a book by its cover, in the most extreme way.
Haha, what? Are we even playing the same game at this point? Life totals are irrelevant when a deck combos out and I'm pretty sure ramping into Wanderer on turn 3 is significant. Answers obviously exist but what's your point, here? I'm going out on good faith here and assuming that you're not making the argument that because something dies to removal it's fine, but I really don't see the argument you're trying to make.
I have often made the argument that green becomes overpowered with fast mana banned. But i think if you stopped at just crypt and sol ring it might be ok.
There are lots of new options (treasures, smothering tithes, new talismans, new voltaic key, as foretold, primal amulet)
I would surely be willing to give them up and see what happens at this point. Just leave vault and monolith for artifact guys and I think it's worth a go.
Nobody had lost life, nothing of significance had been played. Th MW deck, sure, that snowballs fast, but everything else is prime for an answer that shifts the focus away from fast mana being the problem here. This is essentially judging a book by its cover, in the most extreme way.
Haha, what? Are we even playing the same game at this point? Life totals are irrelevant when a deck combos out and I'm pretty sure ramping into Wanderer on turn 3 is significant. Answers obviously exist but what's your point, here? I'm going out on good faith here and assuming that you're not making the argument that because something dies to removal it's fine, but I really don't see the argument you're trying to make.
So it was combos that ended the game, not fast mana?
I get it, fast mana sucks. But, if your table is combo’ing out ASAP, what the hell does fast mana have anything to do with that? Speeds it up a turn, that’s about it.
I’ve just played tons of games where fast mana has been overcome, and that’s because people aren’t racing to combo.
Guess I just play with different people. Most of whom sound like they are better overall people judging by your commentary.
Edit: To the point you made about removal. Nobody did anything else? You sat there at the mercy of Sol Ring, gripping your cards and doing nothing else? Dies to removal is a terrible argument, I’ve stated as such on this very thread probably a hundred times. But, I’m not going to buy that games ended on turn 3 because of Sol Ring. I mean, by the sounds of it, the biggest problem was nobody else was playing U...
So it was combos that ended the game, not fast mana?
I get it, fast mana sucks. But, if your table is combo’ing out ASAP, what the hell does fast mana have anything to do with that? Speeds it up a turn, that’s about it.
I’ve just played tons of games where fast mana has been overcome, and that’s because people aren’t racing to combo.
Guess I just play with different people. Most of whom sound like they are better overall people judging by your commentary.
I guess just casting Maelstrom Wanderer is a combo, now.
Speeds it up a turn? Are you kidding me? Do you realistically see Wanderer coming out on turn 4 without Ring or Crypt? Does Yisan combo out on turn 3 (maybe 4, I can't remember) without the assistance of fast mana? No, fast mana speeds up the game by at least two turns, more if they use their fast mana to ramp even more. By comboing out earlier, they decrease the chance of interaction. Please, tell me you get the correlation between fast mana and comboing out early.
Besides, what's your solution to combo? I'm all ears.
Banning fast mana not only slows combo down, but stops starts like the one I had, which was almost equally as ridiculous.
I guess just casting Maelstrom Wanderer is a combo, now.
Speeds it up a turn? Are you kidding me? Do you realistically see Wanderer coming out on turn 4 without Ring or Crypt? Does Yisan combo out on turn 3 (maybe 4, I can't remember) without the assistance of fast mana? No, fast mana speeds up the game by at least two turns, more if they use their fast mana to ramp even more. By comboing out earlier, they decrease the chance of interaction. Please, tell me you get the correlation between fast mana and comboing out early.
Besides, what's your solution to combo? I'm all ears.
Banning fast mana not only slows combo down, but stops starts like the one I had, which was almost equally as ridiculous.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think 2 turns is the fastest sol ring/crypt can speed up anything (ignoring interactions that let them generate extra mana like voltaic key or combos where they're part of the combo, etc, and assuming players always make land drops). Just wait 2 turns for them to play 2 extra lands, and then do exactly the same thing that they would have done with fast mana. They'll have the exact same play pattern, except ignoring those two turns waiting to play lands.
I'm pretty sure fast mana will generally accelerate plays between 1-2 turns. Which is still fairly absurd in a lot of cases - the MW player, for example, without crypt, would presumably have had T2 farseek, t3 explosive, giving 7 mana on turn 4, and a 5 mana MW. Compared to turn 3. That's a huge difference in terms of the sorts of answers that can reasonably be in place by that point in the game (oh and also screw MW that guy sucks).
Also I loathe this "well, you should just play against more morally upstanding people!" argument. Many of us play in LGSs or open groups where we can't just exclude people without being incredibly rude, and possibly not even being able to get a game - and that's assuming we already know that person and we aren't just going in blind. If the format only works for close friends, then that's a pretty stupid way to run a format. If you're so good at regulating fast mana yourself, then why not house UNBAN them???
Oh right, because everyone talks a big game about how other people should house rule stuff, but no one actually wants to do it. Because it sucks.
I guess just casting Maelstrom Wanderer is a combo, now.
No reading comprehension? MW snowballs. It’s a cast ability that can’t be interacted with. I said it myself. But, what did he cascade into? Otherwise, all players are at 40 life and there’s still plenty of time to do something. The game just doesn’t end there. If you’re claiming Mw didn’t combo kill, then he had to hit 2 other players a total of 6 times!
Speeds it up a turn? Are you kidding me? Do you realistically see Wanderer coming out on turn 4 without Ring or Crypt? Does Yisan combo out on turn 3 (maybe 4, I can't remember) without the assistance of fast mana? No, fast mana speeds up the game by at least two turns, more if they use their fast mana to ramp even more. By comboing out earlier, they decrease the chance of interaction. Please, tell me you get the correlation between fast mana and comboing out early.
Modern decks win on T3 or T4. What fast mana is there? Duel Commander decks achieve similar results, no fast mana. Combo players combo, fast mana or not. Getting rid of fast mana won’t result in games not ending by turn 3, I hate to say it.
Also I loathe this "well, you should just play against more morally upstanding people!" argument.
I was more or less being sarcastic, but if somebody is pissed at their games ending on turn 3, that sounds like a problem that’s quickly resolved by having that quick chat ahead of time as to what everyone’s expectations are. Lots of games involving fast mana go the distance.
I’m not here advocating for Fast Mana to remain legal. I’m just here to point out that games lol the above are going to happen regardless. It doesn’t even matter what types of answers are available to be used on specific turns or whatever, it’s just a matter of whether or not their available to be used at all. I’ve had more games where I’ve felt “Wow, I should have mulliganed/kept a hand with better removal”, instead of “Wow, I got wiped out by Sol Ring”.
And, there is evidence of this. Sheldon’s FB post. If people are racing to combo, they’re going to race to combo. It’s simple. That doesn’t change with fast mana legal or banned.
So the interesting thing is that fast mana often accelerates more than its perceived mana advantage. Let's use Sol Ring as an a example because it's less egregious than Crypt.
Hand is: Forest, Forest, Nature's Lore, Cultivate, Sol Ring, Skyshroud Claim, X
Scenario 1: Sol ring
T1. (0) Play Forest (1), Sol Ring (3) +2
T2. (3) Cast nature's Lore (4) floating 1, play forest (5), cast cultivate (6) (+4)
T3. (6) Play Forest (7), cast Skyshroud Claim (9)
T4. (9)
Hand is: Forest, Forest, Forest, Nature's Lore, Cultivate, Skyshroud Claim, X
Scenario 2: No sol Ring
T1 Play Forest (1)
T2. Play Forest (2), cast Nature's Lore (3)
T3. Play Forest (4), cast Skyshroud Claim (6)
T4. (6)
So we're +3 by virtue of being able to sequence differently. obviously these are fairly unlikely hands but they're all hands I have had and seen before.
There're many similar scenarios with artifact ramp where being able to get say, a t1 Sol Ring into Signet into Gilded Lotus on turn 2 (vs turn 4 on just a signet).
Mana crypt is even frigging dumber from a start perspective, enabling things like T1 Kodama's Reach, or even T1 As Foretold (OOOOF). Just the other day in my wanderer deck I went umm:
t1 crypt kodama's reach (+3)
t2 nature's lore into yavimaya dryad (+5)
t3 skyshroud claim (+7)
t4 Wanderer into sylvan primordial and azusa, play gaea's cradle, and I forget what happened but it was awesome, involved Oboro and 2 fetchlands
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think 2 turns is the fastest sol ring/crypt can speed up anything (ignoring interactions that let them generate extra mana like voltaic key or combos where they're part of the combo, etc, and assuming players always make land drops). Just wait 2 turns for them to play 2 extra lands, and then do exactly the same thing that they would have done with fast mana. They'll have the exact same play pattern, except ignoring those two turns waiting to play lands.
I'm pretty sure fast mana will generally accelerate plays between 1-2 turns. Which is still fairly absurd in a lot of cases - the MW player, for example, without crypt, would presumably have had T2 farseek, t3 explosive, giving 7 mana on turn 4, and a 5 mana MW. Compared to turn 3. That's a huge difference in terms of the sorts of answers that can reasonably be in place by that point in the game (oh and also screw MW that guy sucks).
Okay, fair enough, math isn't my strong suit. I was thinking the ramp into ramp hastened the process without doing the calculations, thinking solely based on using mana efficiently.
Also I loathe this "well, you should just play against more morally upstanding people!" argument. Many of us play in LGSs or open groups where we can't just exclude people without being incredibly rude, and possibly not even being able to get a game - and that's assuming we already know that person and we aren't just going in blind. If the format only works for close friends, then that's a pretty stupid way to run a format. If you're so good at regulating fast mana yourself, then why not house UNBAN them???
Oh right, because everyone talks a big game about how other people should house rule stuff, but no one actually wants to do it. Because it sucks.
Pretty much this. I'm new in town and don't want to make waves by telling people what they should do. There's no way I'm going to tell people I don't want to play with them based on knowing them for an hour.
Pretty much this. I'm new in town and don't want to make waves by telling people what they should do. There's no way I'm going to tell people I don't want to play with them based on knowing them for an hour.
Why do you have to tell them how to play? Can’t you just ask how they play? Then, you know what’s expected, no?
And that bolded bit is troubling. You’d rather endure something you don’t enjoy just to “not make waves”? That is asinine.
Oh right, because everyone talks a big game about how other people should house rule stuff, but no one actually wants to do it. Because it sucks.
How so? Multiple peeps here play in LGS with point systems. I play at shops like that, and also at a few kitchen tables where different stuff is fair game. I play in; No banned list groups, Creature Tribal groups, hard bans on combo groups, groups where fast mana is banned, the list goes on. The fact is, I’m happy because I’m playing, and because the people there(who aren’t always the same btw) have the same expectations and are mostly good humans.
So the interesting thing is that fast mana often accelerates more than its perceived mana advantage. Let's use Sol Ring as an a example because it's less egregious than Crypt.
He didn't say 2 mana, he said 2 turns.
And you can see that, on turn 3 of the sol ring hand, you have as much mana as t4 of the no-sol-ring hand. So it only made a difference of 1 turn (which is still a lot, mind, especially when we're talking about big ramp sequences since 1 turn can mean quite a few mana).
I think you'll struggle to find a scenario where the hands are identical except for sol ring, where the sol ring player can ever get more than 2 turns ahead (except scenarios where they're short on lands or have some specific synergy with ring/crypt, as mentioned).
No reading comprehension? MW snowballs. It’s a cast ability that can’t be interacted with. I said it myself. But, what did he cascade into? Otherwise, all players are at 40 life and there’s still plenty of time to do something. The game just doesn’t end there. If you’re claiming Mw didn’t combo kill, then he had to hit 2 other players a total of 6 times!
This whole paragraph is logically inconsistent with itself. Maelstrom Wanderer snowballs, but had to combo out to win? Is Rite of Replication from his hand kicked on a big dumb beater he flipped with Wanderer a combo? My turn 3 consisted of land, Erebos, go. His turn 4 consisted of the Rite and wiping the other player out, and I couldn't dig to find an answer in time on my turn, so it was game over.
Modern decks win on T3 or T4. What fast mana is there? Duel Commander decks achieve similar results, no fast mana. Combo players combo, fast mana or not. Getting rid of fast mana won’t result in games not ending by turn 3, I hate to say it.
60 card formats aren't really comparable with EDH. The deckbuilding limitations, life totals, number of players, and the presence of commanders means they're fundamentally different. This is a very poor argument.
I was more or less being sarcastic, but if somebody is pissed at their games ending on turn 3, that sounds like a problem that’s quickly resolved by having that quick chat ahead of time as to what everyone’s expectations are. Lots of games involving fast mana go the distance.
It is completely absurd that I need to have a five minute conversation with a group of strangers setting up a social contract that could easily be solved by a more comprehensive and logically consistent banlist. I'm not upset that I lost those two games, I'm mildly irritated that none of the three games were particularly fun.
I’m not here advocating for Fast Mana to remain legal. I’m just here to point out that games lol the above are going to happen regardless. It doesn’t even matter what types of answers are available to be used on specific turns or whatever, it’s just a matter of whether or not their available to be used at all. I’ve had more games where I’ve felt “Wow, I should have mulliganed/kept a hand with better removal”, instead of “Wow, I got wiped out by Sol Ring”.
No. No they're not. Maelstrom Wanderer isn't coming down on turn 3 without fast mana. Yisan isn't comboing on turn 4 without fast mana. I'll see more cards and have more mana with which to respond. I can't believe I have to explain this to someone.
If you think I'm not packing enough removal you really need to look at my list.
Pretty much this. I'm new in town and don't want to make waves by telling people what they should do. There's no way I'm going to tell people I don't want to play with them based on knowing them for an hour.
Why do you have to tell them how to play? Can’t you just ask how they play? Then, you know what’s expected, no?
And that bolded bit is troubling. You’d rather endure something you don’t enjoy just to “not make waves”? That is asinine.
Oh right, because everyone talks a big game about how other people should house rule stuff, but no one actually wants to do it. Because it sucks.
How so? Multiple peeps here play in LGS with point systems. I play at shops like that, and also at a few kitchen tables where different stuff is fair game. I play in; No banned list groups, Creature Tribal groups, hard bans on combo groups, groups where fast mana is banned, the list goes on. The fact is, I’m happy because I’m playing, and because the people there(who aren’t always the same btw) have the same expectations and are mostly good humans.
I didn't say it's impossible, but I will say that I've played in many groups over the years, and to my recollection none of them have ever house-ruled anything (except mulligans, which has changed anyway with the london mulligan). Where you're finding these groups that...force tribal decks only? I have no idea. All I can say is that it doesn't correlate with my experience.
House-ruling a point system (which I also hate those) is very different from a banlist change. Point systems don't require people to make decks specifically for that meta (usually).
But as far as specifically banning fast mana - that's very doable if you're starting a new group with friends, but if you're joining a group that's already existed it's a pretty hard sell. Especially if that group has turnover.
Imo the default EDH experience should be the most robust one - the one least prone to bad games, because you don't have much control over what people are going to be playing at an LGS. If your group can play nice - or enjoys playing mean - with banned cards, then you should house-unban them, imo, because you have better infrastructure in place to actually agree on a house rule, compared to open play at an LGS.
As far as " endure something you don’t enjoy just to not make waves"...dude that's kind of what being an adult is. I'm not going to keep playing with a group I disagree with, but I'm not going to storm out after one guy combos off or refuse to play with him (which could result in me not being able to find a game anyway, since probably the other players will be polite enough to not have a conniption about it).
I guess just casting Maelstrom Wanderer is a combo, now.
No reading comprehension? MW snowballs. It’s a cast ability that can’t be interacted with. I said it myself. But, what did he cascade into? Otherwise, all players are at 40 life and there’s still plenty of time to do something. The game just doesn’t end there. If you’re claiming Mw didn’t combo kill, then he had to hit 2 other players a total of 6 times!
Indeed, the question of "what did he cascade into" is very important. On Tuesday, I had a Wanderer player cascade into extra turns cards, and I countered those spells. The trigger may be difficult to interact with, but its value depends entirely on what it cascades into and whether or not they resolve.
This whole paragraph is logically inconsistent with itself. Maelstrom Wanderer snowballs, but had to combo out to win? Is Rite of Replication from his hand kicked on a big dumb beater he flipped with Wanderer a combo? My turn 3 consisted of land, Erebos, go. His turn 4 consisted of the Rite and wiping the other player out, and I couldn't dig to find an answer in time on my turn, so it was game over.
How are we getting here? You said he’d untap with 6 on turn 3? 4 on turn 2, 6 on t3 = 9 on 4? Don’t get me wrong, turn 5 doesn’t make those totals any better, but 4+ times around the table and nobody could interact??
60 card formats aren't really comparable with EDH. The deckbuilding limitations, life totals, number of players, and the presence of commanders means they're fundamentally different. This is a very poor argument.
Good thing I referenced Duel then, huh. Point is, fast mana does not make combo possible. Combo exists regardless. You’ll have games like that with or without sol ring.
It is completely absurd that I need to have a five minute conversation with a group of strangers setting up a social contract that could easily be solved by a more comprehensive and logically consistent banlist. I'm not upset that I lost those two games, I'm mildly irritated that none of the three games were particularly fun.
You can’t interact with other human beings for 5 minutes? FFS it takes me over an hour to find out what my wife wants to eat, and then she inevitably changes her mind. This is such a reach man. “What can we expect here mates?” “We can end the game on T5 pretty consistently”. “Oh, ok”. I mean, how did you even come into contact with these people to begin with? Scotty beam you down into an empty chair at their table and you just start playing?
No. No they're not. Maelstrom Wanderer isn't coming down on turn 3 without fast mana. Yisan isn't comboing on turn 4 without fast mana. I'll see more cards and have more mana with which to respond. I can't believe I have to explain this to someone.
If you think I'm not packing enough removal you really need to look at my list.
Math may not be the only thing you have trouble with, sheesh. Didn’t say removal density was an issue. Re-read what I said.
Anyways. MW does come down turn 3 without fast mana. Yisan does combo on T4 without fast mana.
As far as " endure something you don’t enjoy just to not make waves"...dude that's kind of what being an adult is. I'm not going to keep playing with a group I disagree with, but I'm not going to storm out after one guy combos off or refuse to play with him (which could result in me not being able to find a game anyway, since probably the other players will be polite enough to not have a conniption about it).
Are you an adult? You are, I know you are. This is just flat out wrong. Adults are able to communicate reasonable with one another. Ensuring everybody is on the same page is what being an adult is about. Nobody is holding a gun to your head about playing a specific way, and rational peeps will accept you voicing your displeasure with potential play styles. Unless you yourself are a jerk-off and is like “F’k you guys, who plays like this! Your all tools, this is ridiculous! If you don’t change the way you play, I’m going to leave”. That’s what children do.
How are we getting here? You said he’d untap with 6 on turn 3? 4 on turn 2, 6 on t3 = 9 on 4? Don’t get me wrong, turn 5 doesn’t make those totals any better, but 4+ times around the table and nobody could interact??
Forest (+1), Mana Crypt (+2), Farseek (+1). Land (+1), Explosive Vegetation (+2). Land (+1). 8 on turn 3. 9 on turn 4 for the Rite. Sometimes ***** happens, and no one has an answer, which is fine. You seem to be the only one upset.
Good thing I referenced Duel then, huh. Point is, fast mana does not make combo possible. Combo exists regardless. You’ll have games like that with or without sol ring.
And the life totals and number of players in Duel are... what's the word... it starts with a "d"...
I have no problem with combo. I have a problem with fast mana, even when I'm abusing it, because it leads to boring games.
You can’t interact with other human beings for 5 minutes? FFS it takes me over an hour to find out what my wife wants to eat, and then she inevitably changes her mind. This is such a reach man. “What can we expect here mates?” “We can end the game on T5 pretty consistently”. “Oh, ok”. I mean, how did you even come into contact with these people to begin with? Scotty beam you down into an empty chair at their table and you just start playing?
Math may not be the only thing you have trouble with, sheesh. Didn’t say removal density was an issue. Re-read what I said.
Anyways. MW does come down turn 3 without fast mana. Yisan does combo on T4 without fast mana.
The only thing memorable about these games is that fast mana was the deciding factor in who won the game. Well, I guess the Maelstrom Wanderer player giving me ***** for not doing much in games 1 and 2 being utterly dominated by me in game 3 was satisfying, but that's neither here nor there.
Go ahead, log it away with that bolded bit.
Alright, since this is now just a flame fest, I’m done. Whatever bro.
Math, please.
For S&G’s. Stomping Ground, elf Dork T1. land, Harrow, Priest of Titania T2, T3, land, tap crits for 3, tap 4 lands, SSG/ESG.
The only thing memorable about these games is that fast mana was the deciding factor in who won the game. Well, I guess the Maelstrom Wanderer player giving me ***** for not doing much in games 1 and 2 being utterly dominated by me in game 3 was satisfying, but that's neither here nor there.
And? Then what happened? What exactly did they do with that mana? How long did it take them to win? In my experience, for every anecdotal game like this there are ones where the end is "and that player lost". Hell, one of my games against Sheldon at sgccon were a player opens with Sol ring into smothering tithe, and me sol ring into smothering tithe and exploding veggies. We both lost that game.
Even if we are not talking competitive or combo, Sol Ring usually turns the game into archenemy. What value does this bring? What value does fast mana bring?
If we banned fast mana it would make for better games.
What are the pros for keeping fast mana? I understand that the impetus is on finding cause to ban it... and I can acknowledge that it is not particularly bad for EDH... but I think it is reasonable to say that I also cannot think of any benefits to keeping fast mana.
I dislike the way it warps games. Instead of everyone being on equal footing, someone is starting with a huge advantage. It is not insurmountable, but it is not exactly fun. It is like if you played Settlers of Catan and every game one person randomly got an extra settlement. Or Monopoly where one person gets an extra 1000$.
Fast mana is typically not a synergistic inclusion, it is just the correct inclusion because it puts you so far ahead. It doesn't improve strategy or test people's skill... it just give them an advantage.
Like, hop on over to that thread. Pretty sure you’d see the exact same back and forth there as you are here, just about this one card.
Played three games at my new store last night with Erebos against Maelstrom Wanderer and Yisan.
Game 1: Maelstrom Wanderer opened with Forest, Mana Crypt, Farseek on turn 1 followed by Explosive Vegetation on turn 2. He won that game.
Game 2: Yisan opened with Forest, Mana Crypt, Yisan on turn 1. He won that game.
Game 3: I opened with Swamp, Sol Ring, Coldsteel Heart on turn 1 followed by a turn 2 Swamp, Thought Vessel, and Erebos. I won that game.
The only thing memorable about these games is that fast mana was the deciding factor in who won the game. Well, I guess the Maelstrom Wanderer player giving me ***** for not doing much in games 1 and 2 being utterly dominated by me in game 3 was satisfying, but that's neither here nor there.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
How do these anecdotes equate to fast mana being the problem? Nobody had lost life, nothing of significance had been played. Th MW deck, sure, that snowballs fast, but everything else is prime for an answer that shifts the focus away from fast mana being the problem here. This is essentially judging a book by its cover, in the most extreme way.
I’m all for fast mana being banned, but nothing in this scenario makes a compelling case for it actually being banned.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I would support a banning. While Glorious Goose gave an example where each player drew fast mana and each player got to do their thing and everyone won a game, the problem is that those games were not fun because one person was so far ahead.
People may be bitter about the devaluation of their Mana Crypts though. I have 3 of them. Probably should sell them.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
There are lots of new options (treasures, smothering tithes, new talismans, new voltaic key, as foretold, primal amulet)
I would surely be willing to give them up and see what happens at this point. Just leave vault and monolith for artifact guys and I think it's worth a go.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
So it was combos that ended the game, not fast mana?
I get it, fast mana sucks. But, if your table is combo’ing out ASAP, what the hell does fast mana have anything to do with that? Speeds it up a turn, that’s about it.
I’ve just played tons of games where fast mana has been overcome, and that’s because people aren’t racing to combo.
Guess I just play with different people. Most of whom sound like they are better overall people judging by your commentary.
Edit: To the point you made about removal. Nobody did anything else? You sat there at the mercy of Sol Ring, gripping your cards and doing nothing else? Dies to removal is a terrible argument, I’ve stated as such on this very thread probably a hundred times. But, I’m not going to buy that games ended on turn 3 because of Sol Ring. I mean, by the sounds of it, the biggest problem was nobody else was playing U...
Speeds it up a turn? Are you kidding me? Do you realistically see Wanderer coming out on turn 4 without Ring or Crypt? Does Yisan combo out on turn 3 (maybe 4, I can't remember) without the assistance of fast mana? No, fast mana speeds up the game by at least two turns, more if they use their fast mana to ramp even more. By comboing out earlier, they decrease the chance of interaction. Please, tell me you get the correlation between fast mana and comboing out early.
Besides, what's your solution to combo? I'm all ears.
Banning fast mana not only slows combo down, but stops starts like the one I had, which was almost equally as ridiculous.
EDIT: I'm at 500 posts!
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I'm pretty sure fast mana will generally accelerate plays between 1-2 turns. Which is still fairly absurd in a lot of cases - the MW player, for example, without crypt, would presumably have had T2 farseek, t3 explosive, giving 7 mana on turn 4, and a 5 mana MW. Compared to turn 3. That's a huge difference in terms of the sorts of answers that can reasonably be in place by that point in the game (oh and also screw MW that guy sucks).
Also I loathe this "well, you should just play against more morally upstanding people!" argument. Many of us play in LGSs or open groups where we can't just exclude people without being incredibly rude, and possibly not even being able to get a game - and that's assuming we already know that person and we aren't just going in blind. If the format only works for close friends, then that's a pretty stupid way to run a format. If you're so good at regulating fast mana yourself, then why not house UNBAN them???
Oh right, because everyone talks a big game about how other people should house rule stuff, but no one actually wants to do it. Because it sucks.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
No reading comprehension? MW snowballs. It’s a cast ability that can’t be interacted with. I said it myself. But, what did he cascade into? Otherwise, all players are at 40 life and there’s still plenty of time to do something. The game just doesn’t end there. If you’re claiming Mw didn’t combo kill, then he had to hit 2 other players a total of 6 times!
Modern decks win on T3 or T4. What fast mana is there? Duel Commander decks achieve similar results, no fast mana. Combo players combo, fast mana or not. Getting rid of fast mana won’t result in games not ending by turn 3, I hate to say it.
I was more or less being sarcastic, but if somebody is pissed at their games ending on turn 3, that sounds like a problem that’s quickly resolved by having that quick chat ahead of time as to what everyone’s expectations are. Lots of games involving fast mana go the distance.
I’m not here advocating for Fast Mana to remain legal. I’m just here to point out that games lol the above are going to happen regardless. It doesn’t even matter what types of answers are available to be used on specific turns or whatever, it’s just a matter of whether or not their available to be used at all. I’ve had more games where I’ve felt “Wow, I should have mulliganed/kept a hand with better removal”, instead of “Wow, I got wiped out by Sol Ring”.
And, there is evidence of this. Sheldon’s FB post. If people are racing to combo, they’re going to race to combo. It’s simple. That doesn’t change with fast mana legal or banned.
Hand is: Forest, Forest, Nature's Lore, Cultivate, Sol Ring, Skyshroud Claim, X
Scenario 1: Sol ring
T1. (0) Play Forest (1), Sol Ring (3) +2
T2. (3) Cast nature's Lore (4) floating 1, play forest (5), cast cultivate (6) (+4)
T3. (6) Play Forest (7), cast Skyshroud Claim (9)
T4. (9)
Hand is: Forest, Forest, Forest, Nature's Lore, Cultivate, Skyshroud Claim, X
Scenario 2: No sol Ring
T1 Play Forest (1)
T2. Play Forest (2), cast Nature's Lore (3)
T3. Play Forest (4), cast Skyshroud Claim (6)
T4. (6)
So we're +3 by virtue of being able to sequence differently. obviously these are fairly unlikely hands but they're all hands I have had and seen before.
There're many similar scenarios with artifact ramp where being able to get say, a t1 Sol Ring into Signet into Gilded Lotus on turn 2 (vs turn 4 on just a signet).
Mana crypt is even frigging dumber from a start perspective, enabling things like T1 Kodama's Reach, or even T1 As Foretold (OOOOF). Just the other day in my wanderer deck I went umm:
t1 crypt kodama's reach (+3)
t2 nature's lore into yavimaya dryad (+5)
t3 skyshroud claim (+7)
t4 Wanderer into sylvan primordial and azusa, play gaea's cradle, and I forget what happened but it was awesome, involved Oboro and 2 fetchlands
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Pretty much this. I'm new in town and don't want to make waves by telling people what they should do. There's no way I'm going to tell people I don't want to play with them based on knowing them for an hour.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Why do you have to tell them how to play? Can’t you just ask how they play? Then, you know what’s expected, no?
And that bolded bit is troubling. You’d rather endure something you don’t enjoy just to “not make waves”? That is asinine.
How so? Multiple peeps here play in LGS with point systems. I play at shops like that, and also at a few kitchen tables where different stuff is fair game. I play in; No banned list groups, Creature Tribal groups, hard bans on combo groups, groups where fast mana is banned, the list goes on. The fact is, I’m happy because I’m playing, and because the people there(who aren’t always the same btw) have the same expectations and are mostly good humans.
And you can see that, on turn 3 of the sol ring hand, you have as much mana as t4 of the no-sol-ring hand. So it only made a difference of 1 turn (which is still a lot, mind, especially when we're talking about big ramp sequences since 1 turn can mean quite a few mana).
I think you'll struggle to find a scenario where the hands are identical except for sol ring, where the sol ring player can ever get more than 2 turns ahead (except scenarios where they're short on lands or have some specific synergy with ring/crypt, as mentioned).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
This whole paragraph is logically inconsistent with itself. Maelstrom Wanderer snowballs, but had to combo out to win? Is Rite of Replication from his hand kicked on a big dumb beater he flipped with Wanderer a combo? My turn 3 consisted of land, Erebos, go. His turn 4 consisted of the Rite and wiping the other player out, and I couldn't dig to find an answer in time on my turn, so it was game over.
60 card formats aren't really comparable with EDH. The deckbuilding limitations, life totals, number of players, and the presence of commanders means they're fundamentally different. This is a very poor argument.
It is completely absurd that I need to have a five minute conversation with a group of strangers setting up a social contract that could easily be solved by a more comprehensive and logically consistent banlist. I'm not upset that I lost those two games, I'm mildly irritated that none of the three games were particularly fun.
No. No they're not. Maelstrom Wanderer isn't coming down on turn 3 without fast mana. Yisan isn't comboing on turn 4 without fast mana. I'll see more cards and have more mana with which to respond. I can't believe I have to explain this to someone.
If you think I'm not packing enough removal you really need to look at my list.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
House-ruling a point system (which I also hate those) is very different from a banlist change. Point systems don't require people to make decks specifically for that meta (usually).
But as far as specifically banning fast mana - that's very doable if you're starting a new group with friends, but if you're joining a group that's already existed it's a pretty hard sell. Especially if that group has turnover.
Imo the default EDH experience should be the most robust one - the one least prone to bad games, because you don't have much control over what people are going to be playing at an LGS. If your group can play nice - or enjoys playing mean - with banned cards, then you should house-unban them, imo, because you have better infrastructure in place to actually agree on a house rule, compared to open play at an LGS.
As far as " endure something you don’t enjoy just to not make waves"...dude that's kind of what being an adult is. I'm not going to keep playing with a group I disagree with, but I'm not going to storm out after one guy combos off or refuse to play with him (which could result in me not being able to find a game anyway, since probably the other players will be polite enough to not have a conniption about it).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
MTGSalvation tags
EDHREC
ManabaseCrafter
How are we getting here? You said he’d untap with 6 on turn 3? 4 on turn 2, 6 on t3 = 9 on 4? Don’t get me wrong, turn 5 doesn’t make those totals any better, but 4+ times around the table and nobody could interact??
Good thing I referenced Duel then, huh. Point is, fast mana does not make combo possible. Combo exists regardless. You’ll have games like that with or without sol ring.
You can’t interact with other human beings for 5 minutes? FFS it takes me over an hour to find out what my wife wants to eat, and then she inevitably changes her mind. This is such a reach man. “What can we expect here mates?” “We can end the game on T5 pretty consistently”. “Oh, ok”. I mean, how did you even come into contact with these people to begin with? Scotty beam you down into an empty chair at their table and you just start playing?
Math may not be the only thing you have trouble with, sheesh. Didn’t say removal density was an issue. Re-read what I said.
Anyways. MW does come down turn 3 without fast mana. Yisan does combo on T4 without fast mana.
Are you an adult? You are, I know you are. This is just flat out wrong. Adults are able to communicate reasonable with one another. Ensuring everybody is on the same page is what being an adult is about. Nobody is holding a gun to your head about playing a specific way, and rational peeps will accept you voicing your displeasure with potential play styles. Unless you yourself are a jerk-off and is like “F’k you guys, who plays like this! Your all tools, this is ridiculous! If you don’t change the way you play, I’m going to leave”. That’s what children do.
Forest (+1), Mana Crypt (+2), Farseek (+1). Land (+1), Explosive Vegetation (+2). Land (+1). 8 on turn 3. 9 on turn 4 for the Rite. Sometimes ***** happens, and no one has an answer, which is fine. You seem to be the only one upset.
And the life totals and number of players in Duel are... what's the word... it starts with a "d"...
I have no problem with combo. I have a problem with fast mana, even when I'm abusing it, because it leads to boring games.
Math, please.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Go ahead, log it away with that bolded bit.
Alright, since this is now just a flame fest, I’m done. Whatever bro.
For S&G’s. Stomping Ground, elf Dork T1. land, Harrow, Priest of Titania T2, T3, land, tap crits for 3, tap 4 lands, SSG/ESG.
And? Then what happened? What exactly did they do with that mana? How long did it take them to win? In my experience, for every anecdotal game like this there are ones where the end is "and that player lost". Hell, one of my games against Sheldon at sgccon were a player opens with Sol ring into smothering tithe, and me sol ring into smothering tithe and exploding veggies. We both lost that game.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
If we banned fast mana it would make for better games.
What are the pros for keeping fast mana? I understand that the impetus is on finding cause to ban it... and I can acknowledge that it is not particularly bad for EDH... but I think it is reasonable to say that I also cannot think of any benefits to keeping fast mana.
I dislike the way it warps games. Instead of everyone being on equal footing, someone is starting with a huge advantage. It is not insurmountable, but it is not exactly fun. It is like if you played Settlers of Catan and every game one person randomly got an extra settlement. Or Monopoly where one person gets an extra 1000$.
Fast mana is typically not a synergistic inclusion, it is just the correct inclusion because it puts you so far ahead. It doesn't improve strategy or test people's skill... it just give them an advantage.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers