I don't believe Narset is much of an issue in EDH. I actually have not seen a Narset deck since Khans block was in Standard.
At least there are few ways for this to be activated the turn it is cast.... but I can easily see Awakening or Wilderness Reclamation enabling Golos in most of these decks.
My concern is that you only need to get to 5 mana, then you can tutor Ancient Tomb, and have the 7 mana ready to go.
At least with Maelstrom Wanderer you need to get to 8 mana, meaning you need a lot of ramp which dilutes your cascade hits.
5 mana means you do not really need to dilute your deck with ramp.
I don't get the recent push for cards that cheat other cards into play. Jodah, Sisay, Urza, Morophon, and Golos are all trying to cheat huge spells.
I think you are right though, this is something that can go into every 5 colour deck. You don't really need to build around it. Unless you have a very lean combo deck you might as well play this.
I don't think it will be banned, but it meets enough critera that if it were very present in EDH it would be banned.
Thankfully this talk does feel very chicken little as this thread helpfully already points out, look they finally printed one of these WUBRG ones that interests me don't ruin this for me and my Serra's Sanctum
Yeah I don't think anyone thinks it's gonna get banned but I think wizards needs to chill out with the cheating on mana effects at "high" mana costs, because it's not as fun in EDH as everyone thinks
Eventually there're going to be so many of these stupid win the game bombs that there's no need to play anything but mana and bombs
Yeah, they really could have gone a different direction with the activated ability. Preferably, something tied to Domain, synergy with his first ability and all. I mean, he is a scout after all.
That is an interesting observation, and I think Ramos was the only 5c deck I saw at sgccon (although there are at least two Ur-Dragon and one Slivers decks floating around my LGS).
How would you feel about a hypothetical 12 mana "You win the game"? No hoops, no conditions.... just get mana and resolve the spell. It is not fun. It is a bad design.
Would you want it banned though?
CV feels similar to me. It is expensive, has marginal, tiny hoops to jump through, and is not fun.
I realize that many people would not want my hypothetical card banned, but would agree it offers nothing fun to the format. CV is the same to me. It offers nothing fun to the format.
I also feel that way about T&N. It looks like a fun card, but in 95% of cases I have seen it immediately ended the game. I don't think of that as fun.
I think it comes down to: Is there a mana cost that is high enough to have a card that says "You win the game" with no other text? If you say yes, then my arguments for banning T&N and keeping CV banned will be irrelevant to you. If you say no, then we can discuss it.
Because honestly, my only motivation for keeping CV banned is that it is a boring card and it makes for boring ends to games.
But that's just it. CV literally does nothing else and there isn't any interesting use for it. I don't know if that in of itself should merit banning, but most of the other "I win" cards that come up in comparison can at least lead to interesting game states that don't end the game.
Because honestly, my only motivation for keeping CV banned is that it is a boring card and it only makes for boring ends to games.
FTFY. That is an important distinction, though.
For instance, one of my most frequented playgroups has implemented a “no combo-kill” policy. In short, it’s just that you cannot eliminate the table in one go. That has turned once “feel bad” cards like T&N into supreme value generators, and the results have been outstanding. Its opened up my collection, that’s for sure. I’m not forced to race a combo, yet still inclined to play with power.
But that's just it. CV literally does nothing else and there isn't any interesting use for it. I don't know if that in of itself should merit banning, but most of the other "I win" cards that come up in comparison can at least lead to interesting game states that don't end the game.
Enter the Infinite ends the game the next turn, one way or the other. Either the caster does whatever they're trying to do and wins because they're holding their whole deck in their hand, or the caster fails somehow and mills out because they're holding their entire deck in their hand.
Enter the Infinite ends the game the next turn, one way or the other. Either the caster does whatever they're trying to do and wins because they're holding their whole deck in their hand, or the caster fails somehow and mills out because they're holding their entire deck in their hand.
Doomsday is a card that is boring AF to play and lose to for this exact same reason. I have never lost a game when I resolved it. And I honestly don't know how many times I've won that way, except for two games when I mistapped my mana and had to pass turn. In one the opponent just didn't have a play, and in 5he other they were so focused on trying to disrupt my hand that they overlooked the Bojuka Bog in their hand which would have wrecked me. But the thing is, in each of those games the apprehension that being on the verge of death by empty library made what was an otherwise boring and disappointing win something more memorable, if only because it made a story that wasn't "oh I cast Doomsday into LabMan".
EtI, Tooth and Nail, Ad Nauseam, etc., are all similar in the sense that when you resolve these you SHOULD win the game on the spot if you are building your deck competitively, but they don't HAVE to win you the game. That is why I reject the premise that CV is comparable. It doesn't matter if I'm trying to cheat it out with some ramp spells and ABUR duals, or if I naturally draw into five different basic lands in your tribal Gates deck. There are no coop stories about how you fought back against CV but then lost.
EtI, Tooth and Nail, Ad Nauseam, etc., are all similar in the sense that when you resolve these you SHOULD win the game on the spot if you are building your deck competitively, but they don't HAVE to win you the game.
Oh come on. It's high time we all stop pretending people put these cards in their deck to do anything except win. Nobody plays Palinchron as just a flying beater. Nobody plays Enter the Infinite just to draw their deck and then do nothing. Just because I have a single cool story about copying an opponent's Expropriate 30 times doesn't make Expropriate a fun card. The power creep in EDH is real. CV is just another drop in the sea at this point.
Palinchron dies to getting removed while his ability is on the stack as long as the player has <11 mana, or two removal spells with 11. Enter the infinite dies to less (though I did see it get notion thief'd once), but it also costs a lot more than CV -- and has more deckbuilding consequences in the sense that you have to be able to win from library after spending 11 mana on a spell.
That said I don't think coalition victory is a big deal and don't understand the arguments against it from the existing banlist criteria perspective.
But the unbanning threshold is completely different from the banning threshold;
The banning criteria asks - does it do some, many or all of these things and to what degree, because those things are against our stated goals for the format.
The *unbanning* criteria is emphatically not - do we think it will still do the same things that caused it to get banned to the degree it did before?
The unbanning criteria surely includes at the very least one additional criteria of:
Is there a risk that we have to ban this again?
And I feel quite strongly there is another hidden unban criteria of:
Do we think this card adds anything to the format, and what does it add?
It's the latter one that I think is why coalition victory will likely never be unbanned. Who is this card catering to? No one who wants it unbanned even is like "Maan I am so excited to play that card, it's so cool!"
It's almost the same for me as for some of the dumb bombs we have now, like Enter the Infinite and Expropriate. If those cards were banned, I don't think they would ever get unbanned because they don't really add anything.
The two most recent unbans of Metalworker and Protean Hulk (to a lesser extent than Metalworker perhaps) both have seen quite a lot of play in not unreasonable ways to my estimation.
Metalworker especially I think was a pretty cool unban. It's unfortunate it's on the RL so it got expensive, but I think it has a neat place in medium-fair artifact goodstuff decks, which is certainly what I did with mine when I played it.
Exactly no one would ever be excited to see Coalition Victory. Winning on the stack for 8 mana is just annoying.
Oh come on. It's high time we all stop pretending people put these cards in their deck to do anything except win. Nobody plays Palinchron as just a flying beater. Nobody plays Enter the Infinite just to draw their deck and then do nothing. Just because I have a single cool story about copying an opponent's Expropriate 30 times doesn't make Expropriate a fun card. The power creep in EDH is real. CV is just another drop in the sea at this point.
Um, yeah they do. I personally have played, seen played, and seen other people online who play Hulk, T&N, AN, Doomsday, and Expropriate as just good cards and not instant win combo cards.
Now would I take the stance that these uses are in the majority? Of course not. But the point is that there are fair uses for these cards, while CV can only be played in exactly one manner. As pokken said, ask yourself what unbanning CV adds to the format. Are there going to be cool stories about how it got played? Is there unique design space? Because I would argue that "well X Y and Z are legal in itself isn't a compelling reason to unban something.
I have a Riku deck with flash, hulk, and food chain and it doesn’t do anything particularly degenerate beyond some raw value... because it’s not designed be degenerate.
As pokken said, ask yourself what unbanning CV adds to the format. Are there going to be cool stories about how it got played?
It is a flavorful and unique card. As for cool stories, how about a deck that uses the crew of the Weatherlight to assemble the full Legacy, and using that to cause a Coalition Victory because that's the destiny of the Legacy.
I'm not going to get dragged into another bull***** "fair use" argument. The term is nonsense and people only use it to describe what they individually think of as appropriate. The fair use of a card is whatever is allowed by the game rules. Any distinction beyond that is personal opinion.
CV is the poster child for "this will never be unbanned". This has been discussed to death tbh.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Or the opinion of the format creators, but who f***ing cares what those idiots think, they don’t know what they’re doing anyways.
This is becoming Sol Ring discussion 2.0.
I won’t join the new site if there is a thread anywhere discussing Coalition Victory. I’ll let you guys decide if that’s a good thing or bad.
There will be a dedicated area for ban list discussion, but any SCD discussion threads will be naturally occurring. I'm not loading any to begin with. If CV comes up then just ignore it maybe? I'm pretty sure if someone made a thread wanting to ban Land Tax I'd give it a glance but otherwise ignore it.
I've noticed a worrying thing that might be a trend of people trying to shut down ban discussion with phrases like, even in SCD threads:
"this has been discussed to death"
"I'm sick of hearing about this"
"can we just stop talking about this?"
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
The last thing we need is people going around shutting down discussions with things other than strong counterarguments. There's content police out there called the moderation team. Let them do their job
I don't believe Narset is much of an issue in EDH. I actually have not seen a Narset deck since Khans block was in Standard.
At least there are few ways for this to be activated the turn it is cast.... but I can easily see Awakening or Wilderness Reclamation enabling Golos in most of these decks.
My concern is that you only need to get to 5 mana, then you can tutor Ancient Tomb, and have the 7 mana ready to go.
At least with Maelstrom Wanderer you need to get to 8 mana, meaning you need a lot of ramp which dilutes your cascade hits.
5 mana means you do not really need to dilute your deck with ramp.
I don't get the recent push for cards that cheat other cards into play. Jodah, Sisay, Urza, Morophon, and Golos are all trying to cheat huge spells.
I think you are right though, this is something that can go into every 5 colour deck. You don't really need to build around it. Unless you have a very lean combo deck you might as well play this.
I don't think it will be banned, but it meets enough critera that if it were very present in EDH it would be banned.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
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StaffGeneric 5C legends are the new 8 mana black or red sorceries that people go someone will play this in Commander I guess.
Eventually there're going to be so many of these stupid win the game bombs that there's no need to play anything but mana and bombs
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Yeah, they really could have gone a different direction with the activated ability. Preferably, something tied to Domain, synergy with his first ability and all. I mean, he is a scout after all.
Because it can tutor up the specific land you need to make it even easier to meet the requi-
Oh wait. Crap. Nothing to see here.
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Lol, yeah. I was so wrapped up in the abilities, and my brain had an aside "it tutors your CV lands!" but I wasn't actually thinking about CV.
That is an interesting observation, and I think Ramos was the only 5c deck I saw at sgccon (although there are at least two Ur-Dragon and one Slivers decks floating around my LGS).
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Would you want it banned though?
CV feels similar to me. It is expensive, has marginal, tiny hoops to jump through, and is not fun.
I realize that many people would not want my hypothetical card banned, but would agree it offers nothing fun to the format. CV is the same to me. It offers nothing fun to the format.
I also feel that way about T&N. It looks like a fun card, but in 95% of cases I have seen it immediately ended the game. I don't think of that as fun.
I think it comes down to: Is there a mana cost that is high enough to have a card that says "You win the game" with no other text? If you say yes, then my arguments for banning T&N and keeping CV banned will be irrelevant to you. If you say no, then we can discuss it.
Because honestly, my only motivation for keeping CV banned is that it is a boring card and it makes for boring ends to games.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
FTFY. That is an important distinction, though.
For instance, one of my most frequented playgroups has implemented a “no combo-kill” policy. In short, it’s just that you cannot eliminate the table in one go. That has turned once “feel bad” cards like T&N into supreme value generators, and the results have been outstanding. Its opened up my collection, that’s for sure. I’m not forced to race a combo, yet still inclined to play with power.
Doomsday is a card that is boring AF to play and lose to for this exact same reason. I have never lost a game when I resolved it. And I honestly don't know how many times I've won that way, except for two games when I mistapped my mana and had to pass turn. In one the opponent just didn't have a play, and in 5he other they were so focused on trying to disrupt my hand that they overlooked the Bojuka Bog in their hand which would have wrecked me. But the thing is, in each of those games the apprehension that being on the verge of death by empty library made what was an otherwise boring and disappointing win something more memorable, if only because it made a story that wasn't "oh I cast Doomsday into LabMan".
EtI, Tooth and Nail, Ad Nauseam, etc., are all similar in the sense that when you resolve these you SHOULD win the game on the spot if you are building your deck competitively, but they don't HAVE to win you the game. That is why I reject the premise that CV is comparable. It doesn't matter if I'm trying to cheat it out with some ramp spells and ABUR duals, or if I naturally draw into five different basic lands in your tribal Gates deck. There are no coop stories about how you fought back against CV but then lost.
YMMV though. This is just my opinion.
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That said I don't think coalition victory is a big deal and don't understand the arguments against it from the existing banlist criteria perspective.
But the unbanning threshold is completely different from the banning threshold;
The banning criteria asks - does it do some, many or all of these things and to what degree, because those things are against our stated goals for the format.
The *unbanning* criteria is emphatically not - do we think it will still do the same things that caused it to get banned to the degree it did before?
The unbanning criteria surely includes at the very least one additional criteria of:
Is there a risk that we have to ban this again?
And I feel quite strongly there is another hidden unban criteria of:
Do we think this card adds anything to the format, and what does it add?
It's the latter one that I think is why coalition victory will likely never be unbanned. Who is this card catering to? No one who wants it unbanned even is like "Maan I am so excited to play that card, it's so cool!"
It's almost the same for me as for some of the dumb bombs we have now, like Enter the Infinite and Expropriate. If those cards were banned, I don't think they would ever get unbanned because they don't really add anything.
The two most recent unbans of Metalworker and Protean Hulk (to a lesser extent than Metalworker perhaps) both have seen quite a lot of play in not unreasonable ways to my estimation.
Metalworker especially I think was a pretty cool unban. It's unfortunate it's on the RL so it got expensive, but I think it has a neat place in medium-fair artifact goodstuff decks, which is certainly what I did with mine when I played it.
Exactly no one would ever be excited to see Coalition Victory. Winning on the stack for 8 mana is just annoying.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Um, yeah they do. I personally have played, seen played, and seen other people online who play Hulk, T&N, AN, Doomsday, and Expropriate as just good cards and not instant win combo cards.
Now would I take the stance that these uses are in the majority? Of course not. But the point is that there are fair uses for these cards, while CV can only be played in exactly one manner. As pokken said, ask yourself what unbanning CV adds to the format. Are there going to be cool stories about how it got played? Is there unique design space? Because I would argue that "well X Y and Z are legal in itself isn't a compelling reason to unban something.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I'm not going to get dragged into another bull***** "fair use" argument. The term is nonsense and people only use it to describe what they individually think of as appropriate. The fair use of a card is whatever is allowed by the game rules. Any distinction beyond that is personal opinion.
CV is the poster child for "this will never be unbanned". This has been discussed to death tbh.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Or the opinion of the format creators, but who f***ing cares what those idiots think, they don’t know what they’re doing anyways.
This is becoming Sol Ring discussion 2.0.
I won’t join the new site if there is a thread anywhere discussing Coalition Victory. I’ll let you guys decide if that’s a good thing or bad.
I think it COULD be unbanned, I just don't see a compelling reason to do so.
There will be a dedicated area for ban list discussion, but any SCD discussion threads will be naturally occurring. I'm not loading any to begin with. If CV comes up then just ignore it maybe? I'm pretty sure if someone made a thread wanting to ban Land Tax I'd give it a glance but otherwise ignore it.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
"this has been discussed to death"
"I'm sick of hearing about this"
"can we just stop talking about this?"
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
The last thing we need is people going around shutting down discussions with things other than strong counterarguments. There's content police out there called the moderation team. Let them do their job
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall