Every time I get into a discussion about what I like and dislike about Commander, I am reminded about how much I dislike cheap tutors - Demonic Tutor, Mystical Tutor, etc.
My favourite part of Commander is that it is singleton and every game is different.
My least favourite part of Commander are playing against decks that just race to win as fast as possible by playing every tutor imaginable.
I am not saying they should be banned. Tutors are not played heavily in more casual settings. It is not a huge problem for commander. They also enable some of the funkier decks that are A+B decks.
But, I would argue that they basically clash with the idea of having a singleton format.
If we banned the top 5 tutors, I would not complain... and I play them. I think the format could only be improved by reducing the number of tutors.
Thoughts? I know by the current Commander philosophy there would be no basis to ban them.... but I think tutoring fundamentally clashes with the idea of singleton.
If you want to play a jank combo and need tutors, you would play the 4-mana ones if that's all you had access to. And while Diabolic Tutor clashes with the singleton philosophy in the same way, it is a huge mana cost to pay to 'circumvent' playing singleton, and I think makes it more palatable.
Every time I get into a discussion about what I like and dislike about Commander, I am reminded about how much I dislike cheap tutors - Demonic Tutor, Mystical Tutor, etc.
My favourite part of Commander is that it is singleton and every game is different.
My least favourite part of Commander are playing against decks that just race to win as fast as possible by playing every tutor imaginable.
I am not saying they should be banned. Tutors are not played heavily in more casual settings. It is not a huge problem for commander. They also enable some of the funkier decks that are A+B decks.
But, I would argue that they basically clash with the idea of having a singleton format.
If we banned the top 5 tutors, I would not complain... and I play them. I think the format could only be improved by reducing the number of tutors.
Thoughts? I know by the current Commander philosophy there would be no basis to ban them.... but I think tutoring fundamentally clashes with the idea of singleton.
If you want to play a jank combo and need tutors, you would play the 4-mana ones if that's all you had access to. And while Diabolic Tutor clashes with the singleton philosophy in the same way, it is a huge mana cost to pay to 'circumvent' playing singleton, and I think makes it more palatable.
My issue with "cheap tutors" hurting the format are largely the same as "cheap mana". Unless you approach it with a heavy hand, you aren't effectively doing anything. Sure you can ban Demonic Tutor or Sol Ring, but that still gives you a number of other options. You really need to ban like 5 cards if you want to notice a difference. And I think that is unnecessary nor is it healthy for the format.
Once you ban tutors you push the game even harder toward a turbo xerox strategy. People will just switch from tutors to cantrips and dig spells. More Impulse and Fact or Fiction (and the 1 mana cantrips of course which other than Brainstorm and Ponder don't see that much casual play).
When it becomes correct to play Serum visions in EDH all the time, well, that makes me uncomfortable
People already play those in optimized decks but lots of medium optimization decks forego the typical virtual deck thinning stuff.
The last thing this format needs is more of a drive toward playing blue because blue has the critical mass of those cards.
So cutting especially the black tutors basically takes away most of the reason to play black and pushes more toward a UG strategy (which is already ridiculously common).
And it similarly will push toward Green which has tutors that are not really bannable (ex. Chord of Calling and Green Sun's Zenith) but are still quite powerful and homogenizing.
----------------------------------------------
Similarly banning artifact fast mana pushes the game hard toward green ramp strategies. The best 1 drop mana items in the game card Mana Vault and Sol Ring. What are they when you ban those?
I intentionally don't run lots of tutors and I still enjoy playing black. I run lots of card draw effects, and you definitely don't have to play blue solely to draw cards.
Draw cards and see cards are different things. Black is quite a bit worse at seeing cards than blue overall.
Night's Whisper is kinda the template for black 2 mana draw spells, and if you're trying to find a specific card Impulse is much more likely to get you there.
Black is not unplayable without tutors by any stretch; it still has great control, decent draw and probably the best bombs in EDH (except maybe blue I guess, arguable though).
But it gets much worse without being able to drop a couple tutors in your deck to smooth things out.
I typically just play demonic + vampiric in my black decks, and maybe entomb if it's warranted. And that's pretty common in my various circles - try to stay away from critical mass of tutors but a couple as good stuff is fine.
Something that's come up vaguely recently in my playgroup is trying this new format - 60-card highlander with PW as general and a 'commander' spell (or something along those lines), and starting at 20 life. The biggest reason why they wanted to try it:
- EDH took too long
- people who get knocked out early looks too sad to make the game enjoyable.
- the last few turns of the game generally look so warped compared to normal magic, it makes the game just 'feel' broken.
Are these things that anyone else here is aware of/thinking about? I feel like it's a good jumping point to shift to a lower starting life total (i used to have a group that ran 30 life start.. that worked well), and/or changing the winning conditions (as to remove player elimination from the game).
My old group did this thing once where the player who eliminated another from the game became their 'master'. their life reset to 10, and during their turn, their master would direct them to do something, and everything else the player decides (so things like attack that guy, or until your next turn, counter that guy's stuff, and so on). It's probably too clunky to implement here, but that's how much we hated player elimination.
We ended up with a house rule where we played for a set amount of time, and then got points in game for doing stuff. Dealing ridiculous amounts of damage, drawing 3 or more cards a turn, actually dealing the killing blow, and so on. If you lose the game, you lose some points, that player shuffles up again and start at 30 life. Highest points wins.
but on more feasible rules changes, is shifting from 40 to 30 something that's even remotely discussable? I can imagine the inertia of having it there for so long being the biggest challenge to a change like this.
30 life vs 40 would make aggro more viable, which would increase the likelihood of people getting knocked out early and having to wait for a long time for the game to be over. It also makes goodstuff battlecruiser decks, the backbone of casual, less viable, as that extra 10 life provides a cushion to let them stabilize against aggro. The lower life total also makes the randomness of 100 card more punishing when awkward draws happen. 60 card Singleton is a LOT more consistent than 100 card, so it is effected by this less. Lower starting life totals also makes commander damage less relevant, mostly a way to combat lifegain. It speeds up the clock a bit, but not as dramatically as basically halving it like now.
40 life is a feature of the format, not a bug. I play both edh and 20 life multiplayer formats (like 60 card casual, conspiracy, and cube), and edh being 40 life's opens up strategies and plays that aren't viable otherwise. Aggro suffers, but aggro is also the decktype most likely to cause the problem you cite in your post, people getting knocked out early.
I always am wary of changes that make edh more like regular 60 card magic. Edh is such a success in large part due to how much it differs from 60 card formats. It's a unique experience with unique gameplay elements. The commander itself is the most prominent and important part of this, but everything else matters as well. Color identity and how it restricts deckbuilding, 40 life and how that makes room for big play decks, slower strategies, and wincons that tend to see everyone eliminated around the same time, commander damage and the increased importance of the commander as a result, the 100 card Singleton nature and how that both increases the randomness of the game and forces you to dig deeper into your collection giving more cards a chance to shine. All of those things help make commander what it is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
You don't really need a rating system.
Axe the fast mana rocks and enablers, the top of library tutors and lower the life total to 30 and you're already in a better place.
I mean, the discussion is nice and Sheldon's article is appreciated, but I haven't seen any change or anything, so I'm just going to keep playing with degenerate stuff until I'm told otherwise.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Stop it, cryogen! Don't tell them about the new card!!
In all seriousness, I would be extremely disappointed if the Rules Committee and the CAG ban Urza. He's a great card design that isn't abusable for the regular Commander population. For cEDHers, like myself, this card simply adds another mono-Blue deck to the table that can go infinite from the Command Zone.
Stop it, cryogen! Don't tell them about the new card!!
In all seriousness, I would be extremely disappointed if the Rules Committee and the CAG ban Urza. He's a great card design that isn't abusable for the regular Commander population. For cEDHers, like myself, this card simply adds another mono-Blue deck to the table that can go infinite from the Command Zone.
How is it not easy to abuse? Generate infinite mana, exile your deck, win the game. And it goes into the Command Zone. Now sure, mono blue may not generate infinite mana as well as some other colors 9r combinations, but it protects itself and digs until it does.
No, I'll take the wait and see approach, but this card is definitely on my radar.
I'm not saying new Urza needs to be emergency banned or anything, but my banhammer sense is tingling.
Just ban Paradox Engine, to be honest. It's the linchpin of all the silly combo engines. Urza will just exacerbate the silliness. Without PE out, Urza is cool, but "reasonable", but the format is already broken with all the mana rocks and so on. I mean, I'm just gonna have to get another Karn, the Great Creator or two for my own decks, I suppose.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
You don't really need a rating system.
Axe the fast mana rocks and enablers, the top of library tutors and lower the life total to 30 and you're already in a better place.
That is a totally different format, and people have made it.
I mean, the discussion is nice and Sheldon's article is appreciated, but I haven't seen any change or anything, so I'm just going to keep playing with degenerate stuff until I'm told otherwise.
You can play powerful cards in a non-degenerate way.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I'm not saying new Urza needs to be emergency banned or anything, but my banhammer sense is tingling.
Just ban Paradox Engine, to be honest. It's the linchpin of all the silly combo engines. Urza will just exacerbate the silliness. Without PE out, Urza is cool, but "reasonable", but the format is already broken with all the mana rocks and so on. I mean, I'm just gonna have to get another Karn, the Great Creator or two for my own decks, I suppose.
Intruder Alarm + a bounce effect and two 0 cost artifact creatures can do the exact same thing
And the commander zone guys pretty much already mentioned a whole truck load of dumb tricks some are definatly stax level
Wins the game when you have infinite black mana too.
As do a number of Mono-B commanders, this isn't really that new.
I also agree I think Paradox Engine is the easy go to card in this equation it is the simple pull, more competitive decks run scepter / reversal because if you have the right Commander you don't need anything else except for a couple mana rocks.
All the Izzet Niv , except the first... sorta
Thrasios
Tasigur
Breya
Oona
Even more if you just consider legendaries that can with Paradox/Scepter.
Ok, yeah. Thrasios is the only one that does it with colorless mana, although Oona comes close. I still think Urza needs to be watched since he can slot into an existing deck just as easily as he can lead one (much like Thrasios).
No matter what, I definitely think Urza belongs in the Watch List category of cards along with some other game ending cards.
I'm sure he'll be on the watch list, just like Paradox Engine has been. I'm thinking that Urza will probably be built in a similar vein that Memnarch is usually built by the general Commander populace; clicking on the EDHREC results is a decent indicator that most people will push Artifact synergies instead of going all in on the combo aspect.
Regardless, I think Urza is a fantastic card design that is Mythic power level in the Command Zone that can lead to fun games for a battlecruiser playgroup or be tuned for a cEDH meta. I'm interested in Sheldon's thoughts on the card and his impression on how likely it will be to get banned. I support the Leovold banning because it interacted with a primary pillar of MTG as a game (restricting card advantage), whereas Urza simply accelerates your mana advantage. I think there is a appreciable difference between restricting a pillar of the game for ALL of your opponents or trying to accelerate your own personal advantage.
While this is probably irrelevant to the Rules Committee but I would also look at Urza as a character and how banning him would be a negative in terms of morale. Urza is quite possibly the most important character to the whole of Magic's lore. Having such a vastly important legend banned in a format celebrating the legendary creature type would just leave an insanely bitter taste in the mouth.
Onto more realistic reasons for Urza's remaining legality is that the threshold for banning Commanders is (and should be) high. Griselbrand is the standard for such and while Urza is potentially fantastic in a cEDH field it has applications that are not immediately warping so it doesn't in my opinion warrant it. If Teferi and Thrasios remain legal I don't see a reasonable justification for it. And honestly with them legal I question the rational for having any commanders banned barring Gris.
While this is probably irrelevant to the Rules Committee but I would also look at Urza as a character and how banning him would be a negative in terms of morale. Urza is quite possibly the most important character to the whole of Magic's lore. Having such a vastly important legend banned in a format celebrating the legendary creature type would just leave an insanely bitter taste in the mouth.
Onto more realistic reasons for Urza's remaining legality is that the threshold for banning Commanders is (and should be) high. Griselbrand is the standard for such and while Urza is potentially fantastic in a cEDH field it has applications that are not immediately warping so it doesn't in my opinion warrant it. If Teferi and Thrasios remain legal I don't see a reasonable justification for it. And honestly with them legal I question the rational for having any commanders banned barring Gris.
I think that the first point you bring up is totally relevant, Jiv. Why bother having a format built around legendary creatures and exclude perhaps the most literally legendary creature of all? There are STILL cards being printed that reference Urza, to demonstrate his Vorthos impact on MTG generally.
The other Commanders that are banned are ok in my back since they all proactively RESTRICT or DIMINISH your opponents' ability to play the game. If you can quickly flip Erayo, your opponents can easily get locked out of doing ANYTHING relevant in the game. Leovold asymmetrically attacks your opponents' hands from the Command Zone in conjunction with Wheel effects, minimizing their ability to do anything relevant in the game. Braids is the weakest of them, but a fast Braids can also totally eliminate your opponents from being able to develop a board presence and thus contribute/interact with the game. And while I'm sad Grisel is banned, he uses the high life threshold of Commander asymmetrically to break the card advantage restrictions of the game.
Urza, while still incredibly powerful, does not meet this same type of criteria. While he's powerful in concert with Orbs and allows you to turn them off at will, Urza himself doesn't do that. This is an important distinction in my mind when looking at whether or not Urza should be banned, and I don't think that he fits the criteria necessary for a ban. If the Rules Committee allows Tasigur, Thrasios, Breya, and Oona all to be legal then I can see no reason why Urza should be banned.
My favourite part of Commander is that it is singleton and every game is different.
My least favourite part of Commander are playing against decks that just race to win as fast as possible by playing every tutor imaginable.
I am not saying they should be banned. Tutors are not played heavily in more casual settings. It is not a huge problem for commander. They also enable some of the funkier decks that are A+B decks.
But, I would argue that they basically clash with the idea of having a singleton format.
If we banned the top 5 tutors, I would not complain... and I play them. I think the format could only be improved by reducing the number of tutors.
Thoughts? I know by the current Commander philosophy there would be no basis to ban them.... but I think tutoring fundamentally clashes with the idea of singleton.
If you want to play a jank combo and need tutors, you would play the 4-mana ones if that's all you had access to. And while Diabolic Tutor clashes with the singleton philosophy in the same way, it is a huge mana cost to pay to 'circumvent' playing singleton, and I think makes it more palatable.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
My issue with "cheap tutors" hurting the format are largely the same as "cheap mana". Unless you approach it with a heavy hand, you aren't effectively doing anything. Sure you can ban Demonic Tutor or Sol Ring, but that still gives you a number of other options. You really need to ban like 5 cards if you want to notice a difference. And I think that is unnecessary nor is it healthy for the format.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
When it becomes correct to play Serum visions in EDH all the time, well, that makes me uncomfortable
People already play those in optimized decks but lots of medium optimization decks forego the typical virtual deck thinning stuff.
The last thing this format needs is more of a drive toward playing blue because blue has the critical mass of those cards.
So cutting especially the black tutors basically takes away most of the reason to play black and pushes more toward a UG strategy (which is already ridiculously common).
And it similarly will push toward Green which has tutors that are not really bannable (ex. Chord of Calling and Green Sun's Zenith) but are still quite powerful and homogenizing.
----------------------------------------------
Similarly banning artifact fast mana pushes the game hard toward green ramp strategies. The best 1 drop mana items in the game card Mana Vault and Sol Ring. What are they when you ban those?
Birds of Paradise and Llanowar Elves and Green sun's Zenith.
This format already has strong leanings toward being Elder Dragon Ramplander in casual circles. We don't need to push it further.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Night's Whisper is kinda the template for black 2 mana draw spells, and if you're trying to find a specific card Impulse is much more likely to get you there.
Black is not unplayable without tutors by any stretch; it still has great control, decent draw and probably the best bombs in EDH (except maybe blue I guess, arguable though).
But it gets much worse without being able to drop a couple tutors in your deck to smooth things out.
I typically just play demonic + vampiric in my black decks, and maybe entomb if it's warranted. And that's pretty common in my various circles - try to stay away from critical mass of tutors but a couple as good stuff is fine.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
- EDH took too long
- people who get knocked out early looks too sad to make the game enjoyable.
- the last few turns of the game generally look so warped compared to normal magic, it makes the game just 'feel' broken.
Are these things that anyone else here is aware of/thinking about? I feel like it's a good jumping point to shift to a lower starting life total (i used to have a group that ran 30 life start.. that worked well), and/or changing the winning conditions (as to remove player elimination from the game).
My old group did this thing once where the player who eliminated another from the game became their 'master'. their life reset to 10, and during their turn, their master would direct them to do something, and everything else the player decides (so things like attack that guy, or until your next turn, counter that guy's stuff, and so on). It's probably too clunky to implement here, but that's how much we hated player elimination.
We ended up with a house rule where we played for a set amount of time, and then got points in game for doing stuff. Dealing ridiculous amounts of damage, drawing 3 or more cards a turn, actually dealing the killing blow, and so on. If you lose the game, you lose some points, that player shuffles up again and start at 30 life. Highest points wins.
but on more feasible rules changes, is shifting from 40 to 30 something that's even remotely discussable? I can imagine the inertia of having it there for so long being the biggest challenge to a change like this.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
40 life is a feature of the format, not a bug. I play both edh and 20 life multiplayer formats (like 60 card casual, conspiracy, and cube), and edh being 40 life's opens up strategies and plays that aren't viable otherwise. Aggro suffers, but aggro is also the decktype most likely to cause the problem you cite in your post, people getting knocked out early.
I always am wary of changes that make edh more like regular 60 card magic. Edh is such a success in large part due to how much it differs from 60 card formats. It's a unique experience with unique gameplay elements. The commander itself is the most prominent and important part of this, but everything else matters as well. Color identity and how it restricts deckbuilding, 40 life and how that makes room for big play decks, slower strategies, and wincons that tend to see everyone eliminated around the same time, commander damage and the increased importance of the commander as a result, the 100 card Singleton nature and how that both increases the randomness of the game and forces you to dig deeper into your collection giving more cards a chance to shine. All of those things help make commander what it is.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Axe the fast mana rocks and enablers, the top of library tutors and lower the life total to 30 and you're already in a better place.
I mean, the discussion is nice and Sheldon's article is appreciated, but I haven't seen any change or anything, so I'm just going to keep playing with degenerate stuff until I'm told otherwise.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
In all seriousness, I would be extremely disappointed if the Rules Committee and the CAG ban Urza. He's a great card design that isn't abusable for the regular Commander population. For cEDHers, like myself, this card simply adds another mono-Blue deck to the table that can go infinite from the Command Zone.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
How is it not easy to abuse? Generate infinite mana, exile your deck, win the game. And it goes into the Command Zone. Now sure, mono blue may not generate infinite mana as well as some other colors 9r combinations, but it protects itself and digs until it does.
No, I'll take the wait and see approach, but this card is definitely on my radar.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
For example? I'm genuinely struggling to think of another legendary creature that can do what Urza does.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Just ban Paradox Engine, to be honest. It's the linchpin of all the silly combo engines. Urza will just exacerbate the silliness. Without PE out, Urza is cool, but "reasonable", but the format is already broken with all the mana rocks and so on. I mean, I'm just gonna have to get another Karn, the Great Creator or two for my own decks, I suppose.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
That is a totally different format, and people have made it.
You can play powerful cards in a non-degenerate way.
All the Izzet Niv , except the first... sorta
Thrasios
Tasigur
Breya
Oona
Even more if you just consider legendaries that can with Paradox/Scepter.
Intruder Alarm + a bounce effect and two 0 cost artifact creatures can do the exact same thing
And the commander zone guys pretty much already mentioned a whole truck load of dumb tricks some are definatly stax level
As a matter of fact Leovold, Emissary of Trest probably held shorter
Wins the game when you have infinite black mana too.
As do a number of Mono-B commanders, this isn't really that new.
I also agree I think Paradox Engine is the easy go to card in this equation it is the simple pull, more competitive decks run scepter / reversal because if you have the right Commander you don't need anything else except for a couple mana rocks.
Ok, yeah. Thrasios is the only one that does it with colorless mana, although Oona comes close. I still think Urza needs to be watched since he can slot into an existing deck just as easily as he can lead one (much like Thrasios).
No matter what, I definitely think Urza belongs in the Watch List category of cards along with some other game ending cards.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Regardless, I think Urza is a fantastic card design that is Mythic power level in the Command Zone that can lead to fun games for a battlecruiser playgroup or be tuned for a cEDH meta. I'm interested in Sheldon's thoughts on the card and his impression on how likely it will be to get banned. I support the Leovold banning because it interacted with a primary pillar of MTG as a game (restricting card advantage), whereas Urza simply accelerates your mana advantage. I think there is a appreciable difference between restricting a pillar of the game for ALL of your opponents or trying to accelerate your own personal advantage.
Gah, I'm anxious that Urza stays unbanned.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffOnto more realistic reasons for Urza's remaining legality is that the threshold for banning Commanders is (and should be) high. Griselbrand is the standard for such and while Urza is potentially fantastic in a cEDH field it has applications that are not immediately warping so it doesn't in my opinion warrant it. If Teferi and Thrasios remain legal I don't see a reasonable justification for it. And honestly with them legal I question the rational for having any commanders banned barring Gris.
I think that the first point you bring up is totally relevant, Jiv. Why bother having a format built around legendary creatures and exclude perhaps the most literally legendary creature of all? There are STILL cards being printed that reference Urza, to demonstrate his Vorthos impact on MTG generally.
The other Commanders that are banned are ok in my back since they all proactively RESTRICT or DIMINISH your opponents' ability to play the game. If you can quickly flip Erayo, your opponents can easily get locked out of doing ANYTHING relevant in the game. Leovold asymmetrically attacks your opponents' hands from the Command Zone in conjunction with Wheel effects, minimizing their ability to do anything relevant in the game. Braids is the weakest of them, but a fast Braids can also totally eliminate your opponents from being able to develop a board presence and thus contribute/interact with the game. And while I'm sad Grisel is banned, he uses the high life threshold of Commander asymmetrically to break the card advantage restrictions of the game.
Urza, while still incredibly powerful, does not meet this same type of criteria. While he's powerful in concert with Orbs and allows you to turn them off at will, Urza himself doesn't do that. This is an important distinction in my mind when looking at whether or not Urza should be banned, and I don't think that he fits the criteria necessary for a ban. If the Rules Committee allows Tasigur, Thrasios, Breya, and Oona all to be legal then I can see no reason why Urza should be banned.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager