Karakas is a legacy playable land and I believe it does see a little bit of play there. Given the number of things they really can't get away with reprinting in legacy I am totally fine with them regulating the price on this which seems like a very niche card in how few formats it can be played in.
Emrakul does actually see a decent bit of fringe modern play (a decent amount of play but mostly not in tier one decks).
I see no problem with them just keeping the price tag of these cards in check.
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Balance is about as fair and balanced as Fox News. I don't agree with making it one of the first cards I would ban, but it doesn't add anything to the format. There are plenty of legal variants available.
Balance is only really unfair because of the fast mana. Without mana rocks to boost its casting, it becomes a lot less absurd.
Also, it leaves behind planeswalkers, which is really, really important these days. Not saying I want it unbanned or anything, but it's less harsh when you have a repeatable, renewable resource on the table.
Counterpoint: Planeswalkers can make Balance even less balanced, because they give you another option to build with while running balance. If there's a way to break the balance of a symmetrical effect, the person running the symmetrical effect is the one in the best position to take advantage of it, and will likely be the person who benefits most. Most planeswalkers are fairly mediocre in this format, so while its possible for someone to fire off a balance while big Elspeth or Karn is on the table across from them, its exceedingly unlikely. More likely is that the Balance player will simply not cast Balance until the walkers are gone, but even then that will be an occasional nuisance. The most likely scenario for planeswalkers surviving a balance is the balance player casting some planeswalkers then casting balance.
Karakas hits "creates undesirable gamestates", "interacts poorly with the format", and "problematic casual omnipresence" pretty hard. The first because its a cheap, repetitive way to just prevent someone from casting their commander, just shutting some decks down entirely at no opportunity cost. The second is because this is a format designed around having a legendary creature that you always have access to, and Karakas being able to just deny that to a player runs counter to what the format is supposed to be about, with the side problem of having an annoying positive interaction with your own commander, allowing you to dodge commander tax by using it in response to any removal AND the ability to let you continuously recast commanders with powerful etbs. The latter two are minor points that wouldn't warrant a ban on their own, but which compound its problematic nature when taken with its greater issues. The third is because this would be a staple card that should go in every white deck, because it does two universally powerful things (keep any opposing commander with shroud or hexproof off the board, and protect your own commander and thus dodge commander tax). Since this is a card that's main use is problematic, being a staple that sees play in every white deck would create problematic omnipresence. Its basically the poster child for the banlist philosophy, they ban cards if they think they are bad for the format rather than power level.
Emrakul is a borderline card. Personally, I think its a dumb as hell card that ruins games and should have never been designed, but I can see why some may want it unbanned and why it might not be problematic enough to warrant a ban. Annihilator 6 is incredibly brutal when cheated out, especially when combined with its near immunity to removal, so it can just shut out players even better than Ulamog. Its a brutal, groan inducing, nightmare of a card that deserves the hate it gets, and doubtless would be the subject of house bans if it ever leaves the banlist. It adds nothing to the format except grief.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Yeah, onering's assessments are pretty spot on. The one saving grace to Emmy is that I don't know if she would be as centralizing as she used to be. However, even though "not adding anything to the format" isn't a good reason to ban something, it isn't a compelling reason to UNBAN something that was my nice bad enough to ban and there should be a good reason to unban it. I just can't think of any argument to bring her back.
Karakas would probably be one of the last cards to ever be unbanned. As for Emrakul, oh boy. I wouldn't even call Emrakul borderline. It's flat out the Limited Resources of creatures: They prey upon the way the format was designed and there's absolutely no way they can ever make a game fun or interesting.
"keeps reprinting"? Karakas has been reprinted in Eternal Masters and Ultimate Masters (plus a Judge Promo, which I would argue doesn't count). Emrakul 1.0 has been reprinted in Modern Masters 2015 and Ultimate Masters.
I am sure it has been discussed to death, so I am sorry to bring it up...
Cyclonic Rift. I have never seen a card so ubiquitously played.
It creates an undesirable game state - multiple people basically need to restart the game.
It is impossible for most decks to interact with it.
To me, this clearly hits multiple boxes that would warrant its banning. Would any of you be upset if it were banned?
I have mixed feelings about Rift. It is a very solid card, and in this format it is a much better boardwipe than anything else U has to offer. I think it okay that cards with the CMC of an overloaded Rift can hugely impact the game, or potentially end it, and games do have to end sometime. That said, it is extremely ubiquitous, and I understand why people who don't often play U find it annoying.
I am sure it has been discussed to death, so I am sorry to bring it up...
Cyclonic Rift. I have never seen a card so ubiquitously played. It creates an undesirable game state - multiple people basically need to restart the game.
It is impossible for most decks to interact with it.
To me, this clearly hits multiple boxes that would warrant its banning. Would any of you be upset if it were banned?
Emphasis mine. I think that both these qualities can be applied to good ol' Geddon and it just isn't banned. Compare to Worldfire or Upheaval which are banned and usually preclude a game's swift end. Rift just isn't on that game ending level. It sucks tennis balls to have it played against you, but usually, the game goes on. Your life total isn't 1, you still have lands, it isn't all so bad. I've found that haste enablers and land ramp are some of the best proactive answers to rift in the archetypes most affected by it, i.e. non-blue permanent-based aggro/control decks, by allowing you to immediately mitigate the wrath's impact and poise to counterattack.
I have mixed feelings as well on rift. When it is played by the person who is winning by a landslide as a tool to remove all of opponents defenses and or abilities to retaliate it feels super bad. On the other hand when it is used from behind I don't mind it at all. Its true that someone who is behind sometimes rifts their way into a decent board position but I have also seen a lot of times where it is used to stave off a big attack and buy time.
I guess to me, it really depends on the game and what is happening as to how good it is. I wouldn't be all that upset if it did get upset but from the stance that I don't like growing the banned list I guess I am more for keeping it off the list. There is also some level of counter play in land ramping and or running ETB creatures as well outside of being blue with counter magic. The option of running answers instead of just making your board undesirable to attack into is also a counter to the card.
I think ultimately it is a very strong card but I think its also a card with plenty of reasons for and against banning it.
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I am sure it has been discussed to death, so I am sorry to bring it up...
Cyclonic Rift. I have never seen a card so ubiquitously played.
It creates an undesirable game state - multiple people basically need to restart the game.
It is impossible for most decks to interact with it.
To me, this clearly hits multiple boxes that would warrant its banning. Would any of you be upset if it were banned?
Well I certainly don't disagree with any of this, but I do feel that it is not the full picture on Rift. A lot of times in which I have seen it played, it has been as a finisher, so restarting the game isn't really an issue (and it also requires the Rifter to have a built up board state, meaning they haven't just been playing draw go control magic all game). I have also seen and used Rift as a defensive card. In this, it is not much different than a number of other cards which can effectively reset the board (although instant speed and one sided certainly make it different). It is only when the caster does not have a definitive purpose is when I think Rift is truly a problem as a reset.
As for interacting with it, short of a counter spell, most decks can't interact with the stack when it comes to board wipes, This one actually gives you more interaction because it let's you recast your stuff as opposed to trying to retrieve it from the graveyard.
I am sure it has been discussed to death, so I am sorry to bring it up...
Cyclonic Rift. I have never seen a card so ubiquitously played. It creates an undesirable game state - multiple people basically need to restart the game.
It is impossible for most decks to interact with it.
To me, this clearly hits multiple boxes that would warrant its banning. Would any of you be upset if it were banned?
Emphasis mine. I think that both these qualities can be applied to good ol' Geddon and it just isn't banned. Compare to Worldfire or Upheaval which are banned and usually preclude a game's swift end. Rift just isn't on that game ending level. It sucks tennis balls to have it played against you, but usually, the game goes on. Your life total isn't 1, you still have lands, it isn't all so bad. I've found that haste enablers and land ramp are some of the best proactive answers to rift in the archetypes most affected by it, i.e. non-blue permanent-based aggro/control decks, by allowing you to immediately mitigate the wrath's impact and poise to counterattack.
Geddon is not ubiquitously played. In fact, I can only think of a handful of decks that I have played that ran Geddon. I think most people don't bother playing it because it is symmetrical. The people who do run it are usually casting it after they have played Kaalia of the Vast or Bruna, Light of Alabaster... generals that just need to attack to cheat things into play. It is true that in many cases the game goes on after Rift is cast... if you have cast multiple green ramp spells, you can probably rebuild your board quickly enough. But, like Cryogen mentioned, in my experience, the game usually ends very quickly. I usually see it end of opponent's turn, then the caster untaps and wins.
Well I certainly don't disagree with any of this, but I do feel that it is not the full picture on Rift. A lot of times in which I have seen it played, it has been as a finisher, so restarting the game isn't really an issue (and it also requires the Rifter to have a built up board state, meaning they haven't just been playing draw go control magic all game). I have also seen and used Rift as a defensive card. In this, it is not much different than a number of other cards which can effectively reset the board (although instant speed and one sided certainly make it different). It is only when the caster does not have a definitive purpose is when I think Rift is truly a problem as a reset.
As for interacting with it, short of a counter spell, most decks can't interact with the stack when it comes to board wipes, This one actually gives you more interaction because it let's you recast your stuff as opposed to trying to retrieve it from the graveyard.
Not to specifically answer you, since a few people said similar things...
I understand that it is 7 mana (a lot of mana), and it either ends the game or the other players are able to recover, so it is generally okay. But if you compare to Sylvan Primordial... all I am seeing that is different is that it can't be cloned. Both are setbacks for multiple opponents. Both pull you way ahead for a few turns. Killing Primordial didn't make much sense since the damage was already done.
I understand the arguments for keeping it in the format. I find it nuts that it is literally played in 53% of blue decks on EDHrec. Every time I make a deck that contains blue, I feel deflated that I have to get another Cyclonic Rift - it is the best card at what it does and is not replaceable in that respect. But "What it does" is usually win the game, sometimes stop someone else from winning.
I just wanted to ask if any of you like playing it. How would you feel if Rift were banned in the next announcement?
I personally would be happy to see it go. Mainly because it is so ubiquitous at every level of Commander play and interacts poorly as an asymmetrical board wipe for all permanent types in a multiplayer format.
I never feel good casting it. I never feel good seeing it played.
While Cycrift is a super feel bad card against you, it's far from a reset state. That honor goes to Kederekt Leviathan and others that reset board states(yes, I know Upheaval is already banned, just making a point). Cycrift at least gives the caster a chance to get caught up/finish the game. Kederekt has no such compunctions and can be cheated in VERY easily. Karn 2.0 is hated, but is often in a very powerful deck enabling him to get disgusting. Upheaval was gone in a hot minute, and good riddance.
Like cryogen, just about every experience I have with Cycrift, it's been a good play, even if I'm one of those suffering.
While Cycrift is a super feel bad card against you, it's far from a reset state. That honor goes to Kederekt Leviathan and others that reset board states(yes, I know Upheaval is already banned, just making a point). Cycrift at least gives the caster a chance to get caught up/finish the game. Kederekt has no such compunctions and can be cheated in VERY easily. Karn 2.0 is hated, but is often in a very powerful deck enabling him to get disgusting. Upheaval was gone in a hot minute, and good riddance.
Like cryogen, just about every experience I have with Cycrift, it's been a good play, even if I'm one of those suffering.
It is not just a feel bad card. It is a feel bad card that fits into every blue deck. Chances are that if you are playing a 4-player game that there is at least 1 CR in one of the decks.
K-Leviathan - I have literally never seen it played. It is also symmetrical. That is probably why it is not played.
My argument isn't that CR is a broken card, just that it is playable in every blue deck and pretty well is played in every blue deck. I am tired of seeing it played.
K-Leviathan even makes me realize that if Upheaval was legal in EDH, it would not be as played as CR. I am not talking about power level. Just ubiquity.
No, I wouldn't be upset if CRift was banned, but I feel like it adds more to the format than Sol Ring does. I also think the problem with Sylvan Primordial was that it kept getting blinked/cloned/reanimated. It wasn't the initial ETB trigger it was the five million that followed (slight exaggeration).
I wouldn't be particularly upset if Rift was banned, but there are several cards I feel are more deserving of banning, and I would probably be somewhat irked if Rift was banned and worse offenders remained in the format.
Agree 100%. On that note, announcement should be a week from today. Predictions?
Personally, I expect another "no changes". I think that as.far as the list is concerned, the only card that is realistically on the chopping block is Iona, and Gifts is the only safe unban. But I dont expect either. Rules wise, there is a steady push to accentuate what makes Commander different while at the same time keeping the rules as mirrored to regular Magic as possible. To that extent, planeswalkers as commanders and the partner mechanic would be the only logical sweeping change, but they dont seem too receptive to doing that.
Of course, I'll always hold out hope that they remove PBtE and unban Library or bring back tuck and the BaaC list, but that's not going to happen.
Agree 100%. On that note, announcement should be a week from today. Predictions?
Personally, I expect another "no changes". I think that as.far as the list is concerned, the only card that is realistically on the chopping block is Iona, and Gifts is the only safe unban. But I dont expect either. Rules wise, there is a steady push to accentuate what makes Commander different while at the same time keeping the rules as mirrored to regular Magic as possible. To that extent, planeswalkers as commanders and the partner mechanic would be the only logical sweeping change, but they dont seem too receptive to doing that.
Of course, I'll always hold out hope that they remove PBtE and unban Library or bring back tuck and the BaaC list, but that's not going to happen.
If they remove PBtE, then there is zero reason to not unban Black Lotus and the Moxen. I own a Mox Sapphire, but I doubt I would sleeve it up for weekly commander. But those cards are on the same level as Mana Crypt in a 40-life format.
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You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Banning RIFT doesn't make sense. If you eliminate the whole table after casting RIFT you weren't that far away from winning anyway. I often saw this card as a defensive option, too. Tooth and Nail or Craterhoof Behemoth are definitely bigger offenders.
I personally would love to see some tutor cards go. They make it way too easy winning games.
Rift doesn't meet any criteria for banning. The closest it comes to meeting is problematic casual omnipresence, in that it is indeed omnipresent, but I'd hardly say that its problematic.
Breaking down what it does, there are really 4 modes.
The first, overlooked mode is bouncing a single permanent. This is relevant, because it can prevent combo wins or getting blown out by Hatred. This is of course not at all problematic.
The second mode is casting it to clear the board as a game winning move, either to clear the way for an attack or remove hate pieces preventing your combo. This is also not problematic at all. Games need to end, and this is a 7 mana spell that requires you to have either a potentially lethal board state or a combo at the ready to make that happen. It does not win the game on it's own, and in fact requires a hell of a lot more setup than many cards at its mana cost to do so. Often, a player casting Rift for the win in a casual game would have gotten the same value from casting Sleep. Of course, the fact that it hits artifacts and enchantments that might be blocking a win is more powerful, but that doesn't make it more problematic. The use here for Rift is clearing the way for a win that turn, and that is not problematic.
Third, you can use Rift to reset your opponents when you are behind as a way to stay alive or stop a combo. This is strong, but hardly problematic. You aren't going to immediately win, and your opponents will have a chance to recast their stuff. It doesn't lock them out without a combo going on, not does it even slow down the game by much. Casting Rift in this way doesn't even make you a favorite to win, it just keeps you alive.
Fourth is the tempo use. This is overloading rift when you are a little behind or a little ahead to jump out further ahead. This is strong, but also a bad play, because Rift is better used when it's going to clear the way for a win or save you from a loss. Using it merely to gain advantage that doesn't guarantee a win is wasting the potential of the card. This isn't a hard and fast rule, and there are times where you'll now that the advantage it nets you will let you put the game away because your opponents won't be able to catch up, but often it's better to save it for pivotal moments in the game. This use is mildly problematic, as it does slow down the game a bit and is generally a feel bad play. This is worse than just casting it and winning because the game isn't over, you have to play it out, the caster is likely to win but the other players still have a significant chance and shouldn't scoop. Still, while this is mildly problematic it is not problematic enough to warrant a ban.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I've been a major rift hater over the years but the more I've played and played with and against it, the more I enjoy how punishing it can be to people who overcommit to board development. I enjoy the dynamic of being ready to deal with a rift, and forcing people to play it in bad ways (mostly option 3 or 4).
I'm comfortable with it. 7 mana plays need to do a lot and it takes a lot of skill to navigate a rift to being a game winning position. It means you've been setting up in such a way that you can win after casting it and forcing other people to overcommit.
Today I was in a three-player game. One guy had a really good opening hand in about as tuned a mono-white deck as I've ever seen, with turn 1-2 Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt. By turn 7 he had out Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Lyra Dawnbringer, Exquisite Archangel and Felidar Sovereign and was at 60+ life and ready to win on his next upkeep. I drew into Cyclonic Rift, putting his board and that of the other opponent back into hand and hit him with my modest board state (mostly a bunch of thopter tokens and a couple of other small creatures. I let him recast the Crypt but Negated the Sol Ring, which slowed him down enough in recasting his whole board that me and the other guy were able to get back into the game. I prefer to cast Rift in a situation which will give me a win, but in this case it not only prevented a loss but also made for a much better game.
Today I was in a three-player game. One guy had a really good opening hand in about as tuned a mono-white deck as I've ever seen, with turn 1-2 Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt. By turn 7 he had out Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Lyra Dawnbringer, Exquisite Archangel and Felidar Sovereign and was at 60+ life and ready to win on his next upkeep. I drew into Cyclonic Rift, putting his board and that of the other opponent back into hand and hit him with my modest board state (mostly a bunch of thopter tokens and a couple of other small creatures. I let him recast the Crypt but Negated the Sol Ring, which slowed him down enough in recasting his whole board that me and the other guy were able to get back into the game. I prefer to cast Rift in a situation which will give me a win, but in this case it not only prevented a loss but also made for a much better game.
Yeah, agreed. Personally, I prefer cards like these to be played defensively and prevent the loss rather than setting up a win. But, if it is in fact a swift ending, we can shuffle up for another game.
Because there are cards which are problematic for the format, same as banlists for any other format.
Sure but there are also a lot of cards outside of the banlist that are problematic and some cards are only problematic in certain decks, metas, people, etc.
You can't police everything so why not let anarchy rein?
Emrakul does actually see a decent bit of fringe modern play (a decent amount of play but mostly not in tier one decks).
I see no problem with them just keeping the price tag of these cards in check.
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Counterpoint: Planeswalkers can make Balance even less balanced, because they give you another option to build with while running balance. If there's a way to break the balance of a symmetrical effect, the person running the symmetrical effect is the one in the best position to take advantage of it, and will likely be the person who benefits most. Most planeswalkers are fairly mediocre in this format, so while its possible for someone to fire off a balance while big Elspeth or Karn is on the table across from them, its exceedingly unlikely. More likely is that the Balance player will simply not cast Balance until the walkers are gone, but even then that will be an occasional nuisance. The most likely scenario for planeswalkers surviving a balance is the balance player casting some planeswalkers then casting balance.
Karakas hits "creates undesirable gamestates", "interacts poorly with the format", and "problematic casual omnipresence" pretty hard. The first because its a cheap, repetitive way to just prevent someone from casting their commander, just shutting some decks down entirely at no opportunity cost. The second is because this is a format designed around having a legendary creature that you always have access to, and Karakas being able to just deny that to a player runs counter to what the format is supposed to be about, with the side problem of having an annoying positive interaction with your own commander, allowing you to dodge commander tax by using it in response to any removal AND the ability to let you continuously recast commanders with powerful etbs. The latter two are minor points that wouldn't warrant a ban on their own, but which compound its problematic nature when taken with its greater issues. The third is because this would be a staple card that should go in every white deck, because it does two universally powerful things (keep any opposing commander with shroud or hexproof off the board, and protect your own commander and thus dodge commander tax). Since this is a card that's main use is problematic, being a staple that sees play in every white deck would create problematic omnipresence. Its basically the poster child for the banlist philosophy, they ban cards if they think they are bad for the format rather than power level.
Emrakul is a borderline card. Personally, I think its a dumb as hell card that ruins games and should have never been designed, but I can see why some may want it unbanned and why it might not be problematic enough to warrant a ban. Annihilator 6 is incredibly brutal when cheated out, especially when combined with its near immunity to removal, so it can just shut out players even better than Ulamog. Its a brutal, groan inducing, nightmare of a card that deserves the hate it gets, and doubtless would be the subject of house bans if it ever leaves the banlist. It adds nothing to the format except grief.
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Cyclonic Rift. I have never seen a card so ubiquitously played.
It creates an undesirable game state - multiple people basically need to restart the game.
It is impossible for most decks to interact with it.
To me, this clearly hits multiple boxes that would warrant its banning. Would any of you be upset if it were banned?
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Emphasis mine. I think that both these qualities can be applied to good ol' Geddon and it just isn't banned. Compare to Worldfire or Upheaval which are banned and usually preclude a game's swift end. Rift just isn't on that game ending level. It sucks tennis balls to have it played against you, but usually, the game goes on. Your life total isn't 1, you still have lands, it isn't all so bad. I've found that haste enablers and land ramp are some of the best proactive answers to rift in the archetypes most affected by it, i.e. non-blue permanent-based aggro/control decks, by allowing you to immediately mitigate the wrath's impact and poise to counterattack.
I guess to me, it really depends on the game and what is happening as to how good it is. I wouldn't be all that upset if it did get upset but from the stance that I don't like growing the banned list I guess I am more for keeping it off the list. There is also some level of counter play in land ramping and or running ETB creatures as well outside of being blue with counter magic. The option of running answers instead of just making your board undesirable to attack into is also a counter to the card.
I think ultimately it is a very strong card but I think its also a card with plenty of reasons for and against banning it.
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Well I certainly don't disagree with any of this, but I do feel that it is not the full picture on Rift. A lot of times in which I have seen it played, it has been as a finisher, so restarting the game isn't really an issue (and it also requires the Rifter to have a built up board state, meaning they haven't just been playing draw go control magic all game). I have also seen and used Rift as a defensive card. In this, it is not much different than a number of other cards which can effectively reset the board (although instant speed and one sided certainly make it different). It is only when the caster does not have a definitive purpose is when I think Rift is truly a problem as a reset.
As for interacting with it, short of a counter spell, most decks can't interact with the stack when it comes to board wipes, This one actually gives you more interaction because it let's you recast your stuff as opposed to trying to retrieve it from the graveyard.
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Geddon is not ubiquitously played. In fact, I can only think of a handful of decks that I have played that ran Geddon. I think most people don't bother playing it because it is symmetrical. The people who do run it are usually casting it after they have played Kaalia of the Vast or Bruna, Light of Alabaster... generals that just need to attack to cheat things into play. It is true that in many cases the game goes on after Rift is cast... if you have cast multiple green ramp spells, you can probably rebuild your board quickly enough. But, like Cryogen mentioned, in my experience, the game usually ends very quickly. I usually see it end of opponent's turn, then the caster untaps and wins.
Not to specifically answer you, since a few people said similar things...
I understand that it is 7 mana (a lot of mana), and it either ends the game or the other players are able to recover, so it is generally okay. But if you compare to Sylvan Primordial... all I am seeing that is different is that it can't be cloned. Both are setbacks for multiple opponents. Both pull you way ahead for a few turns. Killing Primordial didn't make much sense since the damage was already done.
I understand the arguments for keeping it in the format. I find it nuts that it is literally played in 53% of blue decks on EDHrec. Every time I make a deck that contains blue, I feel deflated that I have to get another Cyclonic Rift - it is the best card at what it does and is not replaceable in that respect. But "What it does" is usually win the game, sometimes stop someone else from winning.
I just wanted to ask if any of you like playing it. How would you feel if Rift were banned in the next announcement?
I personally would be happy to see it go. Mainly because it is so ubiquitous at every level of Commander play and interacts poorly as an asymmetrical board wipe for all permanent types in a multiplayer format.
I never feel good casting it. I never feel good seeing it played.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Like cryogen, just about every experience I have with Cycrift, it's been a good play, even if I'm one of those suffering.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
It is not just a feel bad card. It is a feel bad card that fits into every blue deck. Chances are that if you are playing a 4-player game that there is at least 1 CR in one of the decks.
K-Leviathan - I have literally never seen it played. It is also symmetrical. That is probably why it is not played.
My argument isn't that CR is a broken card, just that it is playable in every blue deck and pretty well is played in every blue deck. I am tired of seeing it played.
K-Leviathan even makes me realize that if Upheaval was legal in EDH, it would not be as played as CR. I am not talking about power level. Just ubiquity.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Personally, I expect another "no changes". I think that as.far as the list is concerned, the only card that is realistically on the chopping block is Iona, and Gifts is the only safe unban. But I dont expect either. Rules wise, there is a steady push to accentuate what makes Commander different while at the same time keeping the rules as mirrored to regular Magic as possible. To that extent, planeswalkers as commanders and the partner mechanic would be the only logical sweeping change, but they dont seem too receptive to doing that.
Of course, I'll always hold out hope that they remove PBtE and unban Library or bring back tuck and the BaaC list, but that's not going to happen.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
If they remove PBtE, then there is zero reason to not unban Black Lotus and the Moxen. I own a Mox Sapphire, but I doubt I would sleeve it up for weekly commander. But those cards are on the same level as Mana Crypt in a 40-life format.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
I personally would love to see some tutor cards go. They make it way too easy winning games.
Breaking down what it does, there are really 4 modes.
The first, overlooked mode is bouncing a single permanent. This is relevant, because it can prevent combo wins or getting blown out by Hatred. This is of course not at all problematic.
The second mode is casting it to clear the board as a game winning move, either to clear the way for an attack or remove hate pieces preventing your combo. This is also not problematic at all. Games need to end, and this is a 7 mana spell that requires you to have either a potentially lethal board state or a combo at the ready to make that happen. It does not win the game on it's own, and in fact requires a hell of a lot more setup than many cards at its mana cost to do so. Often, a player casting Rift for the win in a casual game would have gotten the same value from casting Sleep. Of course, the fact that it hits artifacts and enchantments that might be blocking a win is more powerful, but that doesn't make it more problematic. The use here for Rift is clearing the way for a win that turn, and that is not problematic.
Third, you can use Rift to reset your opponents when you are behind as a way to stay alive or stop a combo. This is strong, but hardly problematic. You aren't going to immediately win, and your opponents will have a chance to recast their stuff. It doesn't lock them out without a combo going on, not does it even slow down the game by much. Casting Rift in this way doesn't even make you a favorite to win, it just keeps you alive.
Fourth is the tempo use. This is overloading rift when you are a little behind or a little ahead to jump out further ahead. This is strong, but also a bad play, because Rift is better used when it's going to clear the way for a win or save you from a loss. Using it merely to gain advantage that doesn't guarantee a win is wasting the potential of the card. This isn't a hard and fast rule, and there are times where you'll now that the advantage it nets you will let you put the game away because your opponents won't be able to catch up, but often it's better to save it for pivotal moments in the game. This use is mildly problematic, as it does slow down the game a bit and is generally a feel bad play. This is worse than just casting it and winning because the game isn't over, you have to play it out, the caster is likely to win but the other players still have a significant chance and shouldn't scoop. Still, while this is mildly problematic it is not problematic enough to warrant a ban.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'm comfortable with it. 7 mana plays need to do a lot and it takes a lot of skill to navigate a rift to being a game winning position. It means you've been setting up in such a way that you can win after casting it and forcing other people to overcommit.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Because there are cards which are problematic for the format, same as banlists for any other format.
Yeah, agreed. Personally, I prefer cards like these to be played defensively and prevent the loss rather than setting up a win. But, if it is in fact a swift ending, we can shuffle up for another game.
Sure but there are also a lot of cards outside of the banlist that are problematic and some cards are only problematic in certain decks, metas, people, etc.
You can't police everything so why not let anarchy rein?