I think it's funny that you suggest beating down whoever has the cheap spot removal. So you're going to hit me with your fatties before I have the massive mana required to power out swords to plowshares?
No, the objective is to kill the player before they draw their spot removal. I'd rather give them 3 turns to live than 10. They can't have THAT many single target removal options in their deck and it takes time to draw them.
the other post whined about rofellos playing terrastodon on turn 3 with natural order, which is just as possible without him. that's what I was referring to. The odds of being able to cast it turn 4 with natural order in your hand are pretty much 100% with or without rofellos.
Except you can't make Natural Order your general. Assume your mono green deck that isn't running Rofellos has Natural order in it anyway. You have one reasonable way to get Terastodon into play on turn 4: Draw natural order. When Rofellos is your general, you have twice as many ways: Draw Natural order or draw Terastodon. That extremely solid play is now twice as likely because of the general. How that can be remotely fair?
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
"stuff like stunted growth and plow under are pretty retarded cards for multiplayer."
I bet you're underage....
"terastodon only wins you the game against idiots."
Well, now I know you are; also, who do you play against who isn't hampered quite a bit by a fast T-Don?
stunted growth and, to a lesser extent, plow under, are bad in a large multiplayer game because they have terrible card advantage. in 1v1 they're great. in 3 player, they're ok. in 4 player, they're mediocre but possibly good depending on the situation. Any more than that, and they're pretty bad. You're wasting a card and a lot of mana to deal a pretty nasty blow, but only to one person. In a big game, that becomes an increasingly bad deal.
early terastodon can absolutely win the game in 1v1. in a big multiplayer game, though, forget about it. in a 5 player game it can SORT OF screw up 3 players, but not badly, with its cipt effect. and it's going to take 5 turns to kill a single player if they aren't blocking or packing removal, and that still means YOU don't have a blocker for othe other 3 players pummeling your face.
the key part of this argument is the number of players. in 1v1, or 3 player multi, they're good. in big games, though, those sorts of aggressive, sorcery-speed hate get increasingly bad.
No, the objective is to kill the player before they draw their spot removal. I'd rather give them 3 turns to live than 10. They can't have THAT many single target removal options in their deck and it takes time to draw them.
I pack plenty of them in my decks, not to mention plenty of tutors and draw, so I'm definitely confident I could draw multiple answers before I'd be in serious trouble. It only makes sense. not to mention nasty blockers. One stupid stinkweed imp or spurnmage advocate would ruin your whole day.
Except you can't make Natural Order your general. Assume your mono green deck that isn't running Rofellos has Natural order in it anyway. You have one reasonable way to get Terastodon into play on turn 4: Draw natural order. When Rofellos is your general, you have twice as many ways: Draw Natural order or draw Terastodon. That extremely solid play is now twice as likely because of the general. How that can be remotely fair?
terastodon is a fairly fat creature, with zero defenses and a big target painted on his head. He'll die fast to any decent control deck, and then you'll have some pissed off players beating your face with the elephants you gave them. as I said earlier - great play in a 2-3 player game, mediocre in anything larger. there's a reason aggro sucks in big multiplayer.
Let's compare rofellos to arcum dagsson, trying to get out the rings of brightheath + basalt monolith combo. the odds of getting both cards in play with a rofellos deck on turn 5 are probably around 1%. The odds of getting both of them with dagsson on turn 5 are probably around 60%. (sort of pulling that number out of my ass, obviously, but it seems reasonable.)
Wow! a 60x better chance of getting that amazing early play! I'm no genius at math but I'm pretty sure that's a bigger number than 2! not to mention a better play in a big game!
having a good general can give you a huge advantage early game. deal with it.
(EDIT: not to mention, you'd be hard pressed to generate the 9 mana terrastodon costs by turn 3, whereas natures order can easily be played on turn 3. So you've got a 10% chance to cast it turn 4 and a 10% chance to cast it turn 3 in a rofellos deck, vs just the 10% chance to cast it turn 3 in a non-rofellos deck. Sorta picking at details here but it occurred to me)
You keep talking about big games and then saying mass removal is terrible, I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at, Mass Removal because increasingly more efficient than spot removal as more players are introduced since the likelihood of there being more than one threat that must be dealt with is much greater. So it follows that Mass removal is much more powerful in multiplayer games and thus people pack mostly mass removal over spot removal since trading 1 for 1 kinda sucks. So if people have to pack subpar cards just to deal with a single dude who is easily recurred, that seems format warping.
As for Rofellos again its not just Terastodon or other single cards that are the problem, its the fact that you're playing 6 drops with no acceleration on turn 3 and 8 drops on turn 4 consistently, the tempo advantage is almost insurmountable. Throw in some acceleration and you can be hardcasting things like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn on turn 5, which most certainly is game ending. People are playing ETBT lands and manafacts and you're playing Woodfall Primus and Terastodon seems hardly fair.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
You keep talking about big games and then saying mass removal is terrible, I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at, Mass Removal because increasingly more efficient than spot removal as more players are introduced since the likelihood of there being more than one threat that must be dealt with is much greater. So it follows that Mass removal is much more powerful in multiplayer games and thus people pack mostly mass removal over spot removal since trading 1 for 1 kinda sucks.
You are overrating sweepers a lot. All you need is 3 or 4 really. Target removal is fantastic in ffa because sometimes you may want to let that ulamog swing at your opponents, it is actually often profitable to let creatures live. Then when they turn on you kill it. Sweepers have their place but all they can do is sweep.
You are overrating sweepers a lot. All you need is 3 or 4 really. Target removal is fantastic in ffa because sometimes you may want to let that ulamog swing at your opponents, it is actually often profitable to let creatures live. Then when they turn on you kill it. Sweepers have their place but all they can do is sweep.
I'm fully aware that spot removal is good and has its place but I would only play maybe 4 at most pieces of spot removal in multiplayer since any more and it can often be a dead draw when there are too many threats on the board. I'm saying that in general mass removal is much stronger in multiplayer and players tend to play mass removal over spot removal, but thats not to say that spot removal doesn't have its place in EDH, its just that you aren't going to be packing enough answers to Rofellos that you will always have some form of spot removal in the first 3 turns.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
also, I want to hear what hillarious god-hand you need to play an eldrazi on turn 2. Let me guess...Mana crypt, sol ring, forest, coalition relic, rofellos, next turn forest and tap for...9. still not enough for ulamog. I think you might be SLIGHTLY exaggerating the speed of the deck.
Top deck: Ulamog, Mana Vault (multiplayer, remember?)
Turn 1: Forest, Petal, pop Petal for Exploration, play second Forest, cast ROFLmana.
Turn 2: Forest, Forest, tap out (GGGGGGGG). Ring, Vault, tap out (5GGGGGG), Ulamog.
Turn two, you get a 10/10 with a Vindicate attached. This is before anyone else has 2 lands out.
God Hand? Kinda (four of the cards are basic lands, which you will have an abundance of). But it is possible, and the odds of getting a turn 3-5 Titan are absurd (and largely due to ROFLmana). Hell, turn 3 you have enough mana to recast Rofellos if he's killed, so all that does is slow you down a turn.
Anyway, the problem isn't that he's overpowered. the problem is that people build poor multiplayer decks. People think mass removal is better because it kills more things, which is a bloody idiotic way to play multiplayer. stick with more targeted removal and counters and your life will be much easier, against rofellos and everyone else.
You keep talking about big games and then saying mass removal is terrible, I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at, Mass Removal because increasingly more efficient than spot removal as more players are introduced since the likelihood of there being more than one threat that must be dealt with is much greater. So it follows that Mass removal is much more powerful in multiplayer games and thus people pack mostly mass removal over spot removal since trading 1 for 1 kinda sucks. So if people have to pack subpar cards just to deal with a single dude who is easily recurred, that seems format warping.
As for Rofellos again its not just Terastodon or other single cards that are the problem, its the fact that you're playing 6 drops with no acceleration on turn 3 and 8 drops on turn 4 consistently, the tempo advantage is almost insurmountable. Throw in some acceleration and you can be hardcasting things like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn on turn 5, which most certainly is game ending. People are playing ETBT lands and manafacts and you're playing Woodfall Primus and Terastodon seems hardly fair.
Yes, that's the specious argument for mass removal. hammy already made some good points but I'll add a few things:
-letting people know you have targeted removal means they probably won't attack you in the first place - they'll hit your opponents, meaning not only do you NOT take damage, you also DON'T use a card and you DO watch your opponents die. it's a trifecta of awesomeness.
-mass removal also blows because it's usually sorcery speed (my favorite sweeper: Rout). if people know you have it (either because you revealed it, or simply because they've played you before) they'll want to kill you FIRST, since they know that if they deal lethal damage, you won't be able to cast it once you're dead. But if they know you have instant-speed removal, they know you can cast it in response and wreck them. That's why bant charm is a phenomenal deterrent - who's going to attack someone if they know THAT'S going to happen?
-Mass removal also sucks because it's usually symmetrical. Someone who has a lousy board position has no reason to not attack you, because if you nuke it's good for them. Whereas if you have targeted removal, you can remove what little they DO have and make their position even worse.
-targeted removal lets you make allies, too, by blasting stuff out of people's way.
-finally, mass removal pisses everyone off who lost some good stuff. Once they get more, they're probably coming for you, so it doesn't happen again.
I like a few pieces of mass removal, usually o-stone and rout and sometimes 1-2 others. Having a good number of tutors means you can get one if things get out of hand, but the majority of the time you want enemy creatures on the board, pounding the crap out of your enemies.
As far as rofellos, he's a solid general but playing massive creatures early on in a big game makes you a big target for removal and pain. Aggro sucks in a large multiplayer environment, always has and always will. Even emrakul has plenty of weaknesses, I played a game recently where one came out on turn 5 iirc. that person lost the game horribly.
I'm fully aware that spot removal is good and has its place but I would only play maybe 4 at most pieces of spot removal in multiplayer since any more and it can often be a dead draw when there are too many threats on the board. I'm saying that in general mass removal is much stronger in multiplayer and players tend to play mass removal over spot removal, but thats not to say that spot removal doesn't have its place in EDH, its just that you aren't going to be packing enough answers to Rofellos that you will always have some form of spot removal in the first 3 turns.
I do, and I will. mass removal is for people trying to play like rambo - you against the world. that's a terrible way to play multiplayer. see the list I made above for tons of powerful targeted removal and defense that works great early-game as well as late.
Top deck: Ulamog, Mana Vault (multiplayer, remember?)
Turn 1: Forest, Petal, pop Petal for Explore, play second Forest, cast ROFLmana.
Turn 2: Forest, Forest, tap out (GGGGGGGG). Ring, Vault, tap out (5GGGGGG), Ulamog.
Turn two, you get a 10/10 with a Vindicate attached. This is before anyone else has 2 lands out.
God Hand? Kinda (four of the cards are basic lands, which you will have an abundance of). But it is possible, and the odds of getting a turn 3-5 Titan are absurd (and largely due to ROFLmana). Hell, turn 3 you have enough mana to recast Rofellos if he's killed, so all that does is slow you down a turn.
I am now convinced you are a troll.
if you have to specify every single card in your hand, as well as the two cards on top of your library, and every single one of them needs to be exactly what they are, then it's a godhand situation and it will never ever happen.
assuming any of the cards from your hand can be on top of your library in any order and vice versa (which isn't true, I'm being generous), assuming you have 50 forests in your deck (being generous), the odds are...
let me fire up my calculator...
.000002268% chance of that happening in a game.
in other words, every 44 million games, that happens ONCE.
THAT IS A FREAKING GODHAND SCENARIO.
(on top of that, it's not even a guaranteed win, I've got lots of 1-2 mana cards that can screw ulamog something fierce...but it's not really worth thinking about since it's so hillariously unlikely)
and see previous comments on targeted+instant vs mass+sorcery.
Yes, it is a God Hand situation. However, every turn you wait increases the odds of dropping an early-game Eldrazi Titan dramatically.
Most decks are able to hardcast a Titan turn 6-ish (provided that is the focus of their decks). Rofellos is able to do so starting turn 2 without an infinite combo. Turn 3, he's able to hardcast almost any spell in his library if it is in his hand (assuming the player ramped even a little bit turn 2). By turn 6, he's set for life. All he needs to do is get Haste and you have the ultimate mana source.
The fact that Rofellos doesn't win Multiplayer games is irrelevant. Clique doesn't always win games, same with Zur, Uril, Azami, etc. What got Rofellos banned was that it took the entire table to kill the deck off, and he would often be able to take out one or two of the other players in the process. This is in competitive multiplayer games, not just the casual EDH match.
Guys, what is this discussion about anymore? Rofellos can get out of hand too quickly; he's a problem the table immediately needs to answer, and that's what I thought made a card "overcentralizing" or whatever.
Yes, it is a God Hand situation. However, every turn you wait increases the odds of dropping an early-game Eldrazi Titan dramatically.
Most decks are able to hardcast a Titan turn 6-ish (provided that is the focus of their decks). Rofellos is able to do so starting turn 2 without an infinite combo. Turn 3, he's able to hardcast almost any spell in his library if it is in his hand (assuming the player ramped even a little bit turn 2). By turn 6, he's set for life. All he needs to do is get Haste and you have the ultimate mana source.
The fact that Rofellos doesn't win Multiplayer games is irrelevant. Clique doesn't always win games, same with Zur, Uril, Azami, etc. What got Rofellos banned was that it took the entire table to kill the deck off, and he would often be able to take out one or two of the other players in the process. This is in competitive multiplayer games, not just the casual EDH match.
the odds of getting this hand are exactly the same as your own stupid godhand - actually, quite a bit better. it's playable in any deck ever and gets an eldrazi on turn 2.
furthermore, unless he gets ungodly lucky I have no idea why you think he'd be able to cast "anything in his library" by turn THREE. and don't bother with more stupid godhand crap, i don't care. TYPICALLY he'll have 6-8 mana by turn 3 - a lot, yes, but nothing overwhelming.
the fact that he doesn't win is 100% relevant. he's not overpowered in multiplayer if he can't win. The fact that he could win "if he didn't draw hate for playing aggressively" is meaningless, because he does. And there are plenty of generals that require immediate answers (again, arcum dagsson...turn 5 win is very very possible with VERY REAL odds, none of this 1/44000000 crap) and no one's talking about banning those.
he's not overpowered in multiplayer if he can't win
I'm done. You just don't get it, and you never will.
Rofellos wasn't a General. He was "GG: You and target player lose the game" in any multiplayer environment. You were guaranteed to get hated off the table as fast as Braids was, but you had the strong chance of taking one or two people out in the process and ruining the fun for those players.
He's banned, and the RC has made it clear that they will not unban him. Drop it.
TYPICALLY he'll have 6-8 mana by turn 3 - a lot, yes, but nothing overwhelming.
I know i lold at that. Normally i feel that most cards on the ban list could be taken off as you probably already know, and mybe just maybe even refellos could get one more chance, but that is not the way to persuade anyone he should no be banned. Consistent 6-8 (sometimes more) mana on turn 3 is the definition of overwhelming, this coming from someone who welcomes an early game emmy.
I'm done. You just don't get it, and you never will.
Rofellos wasn't a General. He was "GG: You and target player lose the game" in any multiplayer environment. You were guaranteed to get hated off the table as fast as Braids was, but you had the strong chance of taking one or two people out in the process and ruining the fun for those players.
He's banned, and the RC has made it clear that they will not unban him. Drop it.
that argument is actually fair. I agree, with the massive early mana he could definitely ensure at least 1-2 players out of the game or close, even though he himself is very unlikely to actually win. That's not to say he can pick anyone at the table and guarantee their loss (cheap removal, efficient counters, and the right defensive blocker can still severely impair his effectiveness), but he could pretty certainly make sure that SOMEONE loses (or effectively loses) within the first few turns. Which, I agree, isn't much fun.
That said, I don't think many people play a deck with the intention to come in 2nd or 3rd. As long as he's trying to play to win, and not just screw certain people, he's not that bad.
Even on the assumption that he WILL kill 1-2 players, I don't feel like that should result in him being banned. I don't think a card should be banned on virtue of not being fun. That's obviously a matter of opinion and there's not really anywhere to go from there.
I know i lold at that. Normally i feel that most cards on the ban list could be taken off as you probably already know, and mybe just maybe even refellos could get one more chance, but that is not the way to persuade anyone he should no be banned. Consistent 6-8 (sometimes more) mana on turn 3 is the definition of overwhelming, this coming from someone who welcomes an early game emmy.
it's overwhelming in 1v1, sure. in a big game, I don't feel like it is. Defensive cards are a lot cheaper than offensive ones, and they make tons of sense to play in multiplayer - as long as everyone is playing a good defensive game, 6-8 mana on the offense isn't going to mean much. But of course not everyone plays that way...imo, that's their loss.
In case anyone thinks I'm delusional, I don't think anything I say will get it unbanned (or even reach the eyes of anyone who's in any position to do anything about it), I just like a good debate.
EDIT: I'm also sort of bothered that they banned him, then unbanned him, then banned him again. Having an unstable banned list means you can't be sure if that expensive card you bought is going to still be legal in a few weeks (dammit, tolarian academy...), and banning a general means a lot of people have to completely rebuild their entire deck. That sucks pretty hard.
Can someone tell me where I can find the latest and greatest banned list. The last one I saw Sol Ring wasn't on it !
It depends what do you mean by "greatest banned list". Sol Ring is not on the multiplayer banlist and has never been there. The ban list for multiplayer games can be found here. As for the French 1v1 ban list, you could find a discussion on that in the 1v1 subforum.
multi card? Well duh, besides mox lotus which card gives you infinite mana on its own?
only done once? who cares? It shouldn't take more than once to pull off a win.
my quanar combo does require something else to win the game after getting infinite mana...but it can be virtually any instant, sorcery, mana-hungry permanent, or tap-hungry permanent. targeted draw/mill spell = infinite decking on all players. untargeted draw spell = draw deck until you find a targeted draw spell. damage effect = win. token-producer = win on the next turn unless they have haste. prodigal sorcerer or anything like him = win. centaur glade = win. it's stupidly flexible. in blue you should have a draw spell of some kind in your hand anyway.
this card is terrible when you have less than 5 mana. when you have 5-10 mana it's mediocre at best. it still looks like garbage compared to mind's eye, and I don't even like mind's eye. Even at 10-15 mana I'd gladly take mind's eye instead. Once you get over 15 mana it's pretty good, I guess, for a non-blue drawer, but at 15 mana there are certainly better cards. It's not until you go infinite that it's really worth a damn.
If it wasn't for infinite combos, I doubt anyone would run it.
Anyway, I don't mind it being banned as much as Rofellos. Guy never seemed very overpowered to me, in a multiplayer game.
I just checked the ban discussion and my reasoning was correct. Essentially every other infinite mana combo needs at a minimum two cards + something else that actually benefits from a ton of mana (despite what you said, the majority of cards in any deck will not ie. 7 card hand of Yixlid Jailor, Cloud of Faeries, Ninja of Deep Hours, Counterspell, Boomerang, Ancestral Visions and Doom Blade). Staff needs at minimum one other card to both go infinite and actually do something with the mana.
It isn't that the card is completely broken, it's just broken enough.
The argument about Rofellos is silly. You can't argue for or against a ban based on some imagnary draw against an imaginary board position. Arguing whether turn 4 Terastadon wins games is beside the point.
Rofellos is banned as a general because he provides access to early mana of a magnitude and consistency unmatched by any other general. Forget your god draws. Unless Rofellos is burned out as soon as he hits the table, every Rofellos deck will have six colored mana available on turn 3. Every deck, every game, except cases of significant mana screw.
Look at the decklist of your favorite deck. How's your board position when you drop your third land? How far are you from playing your general? How's your mana base? What does a typical hand draw look like for you? You have what... somewhere between two and four available mana, depending on how many CIP tapped lands you drew, and which mana rocks you picked up? Maybe on turn 3, you drop your Darksteel Ingot or Coalition relic and pass? Hey, maybe you lucked up your Sol Ring and you have five mana and a utility dude you dropped on turn two, that's a pretty good draw.
Rofellos has six mana, and that assumes he didn't luckdraw his own Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, or Mana Vault. Rofellos hasn't actually played any cards from his hand other than three basic Forests, so he still has seven cards in hand. He has lots of options. He could go aggro, there are certainly things a mono-green deck can do with six green mana. More likely though, he'll spend his third turn ramping further, which is also something green does very easily. How many ramping options are available in green with six available mana? Pretty much a billion, right? Ramp on turn three, and then on turn four, Rofellos has something like 8-10 mana available and starts doing ugly, nasty things.
Once again, I stress... this is not a god draw. This is not some fantasy scenario I invented to try to impress upon you the might of the deck. This is normal, everyday Rofellos, the kind of draw you get 95% of the time.
So this is about where you say "Rofellos has 1 toughness, somebody at the table will nuke him before he comes online." That's probably true... someone at the table will hopefully recognize the threat and burn Rofellos off the table. That player essentially spends an entire turn to do it... because hey, it's turn two, and you're choosing to play removal instead of ramping your deck and proceeding with your own game plan. But never mind that. The Rofellos player has built his deck for ramp, and instead of having six mana on turn three, he uses his three mana to ramp another land into play.
Turn four, Rofellos. That ☺☺☺☺er again! Well someone will just burn him off the table again, right?
Ok, this is about where I stop you. You're telling me that Rofellos needs to be killed every time he comes out, and it's not that hard to do. No, it's not that hard to kill Rofellos, but the fact that you NEED to kill him before he comes online is the problem. If Rofellos ever taps for mana, you're in a world of suck, because he taps for a LOT of mana relative to his casting cost.
Rofellos isn't banned because he's unstoppable. He's banned because he's incredibly consistent, and he's a huge threat relative to his casting cost.
I just checked the ban discussion and my reasoning was correct. Essentially every other infinite mana combo needs at a minimum two cards + something else that actually benefits from a ton of mana (despite what you said, the majority of cards in any deck will not ie. 7 card hand of Yixlid Jailor, Cloud of Faeries, Ninja of Deep Hours, Counterspell, Boomerang, Ancestral Visions and Doom Blade). Staff needs at minimum one other card to both go infinite and actually do something with the mana.
It isn't that the card is completely broken, it's just broken enough.
how about kiki jiki + sky hussar? 2 cards and you don't need anything else to win the game. There's tons of 2-card-win combos. hell, with skill borrower in play and kiki-jiki on top of your library you can with the game with only one thing on the field.
and while my stupid quanar combo requires a third card, it's so incredibly generalized that you're bound to have something useful. even out of your cherry-picked hand (and the only one of those I've ever used in EDH is counterspell), all you have to do is wait until ancestral visions resolves to win the game. or you could use boomerang to bounce every enemy permanent on the field, and kill all the nonblack creatures with doom blade. that's not exactly a bad position to be in.
The don is pretty gnarly imo.
Legacy: Pox | Tiny Leaders: Thalia Hatebears
No, the objective is to kill the player before they draw their spot removal. I'd rather give them 3 turns to live than 10. They can't have THAT many single target removal options in their deck and it takes time to draw them.
Except you can't make Natural Order your general. Assume your mono green deck that isn't running Rofellos has Natural order in it anyway. You have one reasonable way to get Terastodon into play on turn 4: Draw natural order. When Rofellos is your general, you have twice as many ways: Draw Natural order or draw Terastodon. That extremely solid play is now twice as likely because of the general. How that can be remotely fair?
stunted growth and, to a lesser extent, plow under, are bad in a large multiplayer game because they have terrible card advantage. in 1v1 they're great. in 3 player, they're ok. in 4 player, they're mediocre but possibly good depending on the situation. Any more than that, and they're pretty bad. You're wasting a card and a lot of mana to deal a pretty nasty blow, but only to one person. In a big game, that becomes an increasingly bad deal.
early terastodon can absolutely win the game in 1v1. in a big multiplayer game, though, forget about it. in a 5 player game it can SORT OF screw up 3 players, but not badly, with its cipt effect. and it's going to take 5 turns to kill a single player if they aren't blocking or packing removal, and that still means YOU don't have a blocker for othe other 3 players pummeling your face.
the key part of this argument is the number of players. in 1v1, or 3 player multi, they're good. in big games, though, those sorts of aggressive, sorcery-speed hate get increasingly bad.
I pack plenty of them in my decks, not to mention plenty of tutors and draw, so I'm definitely confident I could draw multiple answers before I'd be in serious trouble. It only makes sense. not to mention nasty blockers. One stupid stinkweed imp or spurnmage advocate would ruin your whole day.
terastodon is a fairly fat creature, with zero defenses and a big target painted on his head. He'll die fast to any decent control deck, and then you'll have some pissed off players beating your face with the elephants you gave them. as I said earlier - great play in a 2-3 player game, mediocre in anything larger. there's a reason aggro sucks in big multiplayer.
Let's compare rofellos to arcum dagsson, trying to get out the rings of brightheath + basalt monolith combo. the odds of getting both cards in play with a rofellos deck on turn 5 are probably around 1%. The odds of getting both of them with dagsson on turn 5 are probably around 60%. (sort of pulling that number out of my ass, obviously, but it seems reasonable.)
Wow! a 60x better chance of getting that amazing early play! I'm no genius at math but I'm pretty sure that's a bigger number than 2! not to mention a better play in a big game!
having a good general can give you a huge advantage early game. deal with it.
(EDIT: not to mention, you'd be hard pressed to generate the 9 mana terrastodon costs by turn 3, whereas natures order can easily be played on turn 3. So you've got a 10% chance to cast it turn 4 and a 10% chance to cast it turn 3 in a rofellos deck, vs just the 10% chance to cast it turn 3 in a non-rofellos deck. Sorta picking at details here but it occurred to me)
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
As for Rofellos again its not just Terastodon or other single cards that are the problem, its the fact that you're playing 6 drops with no acceleration on turn 3 and 8 drops on turn 4 consistently, the tempo advantage is almost insurmountable. Throw in some acceleration and you can be hardcasting things like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn on turn 5, which most certainly is game ending. People are playing ETBT lands and manafacts and you're playing Woodfall Primus and Terastodon seems hardly fair.
You are overrating sweepers a lot. All you need is 3 or 4 really. Target removal is fantastic in ffa because sometimes you may want to let that ulamog swing at your opponents, it is actually often profitable to let creatures live. Then when they turn on you kill it. Sweepers have their place but all they can do is sweep.
Sharuum the Hegemon
Mayael the Anima
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sliver Overlord
Drana Kalastria Bloodchief
99 mountain Ashling
I'm fully aware that spot removal is good and has its place but I would only play maybe 4 at most pieces of spot removal in multiplayer since any more and it can often be a dead draw when there are too many threats on the board. I'm saying that in general mass removal is much stronger in multiplayer and players tend to play mass removal over spot removal, but thats not to say that spot removal doesn't have its place in EDH, its just that you aren't going to be packing enough answers to Rofellos that you will always have some form of spot removal in the first 3 turns.
Top deck: Ulamog, Mana Vault (multiplayer, remember?)
Turn 1: Forest, Petal, pop Petal for Exploration, play second Forest, cast ROFLmana.
Turn 2: Forest, Forest, tap out (GGGGGGGG). Ring, Vault, tap out (5GGGGGG), Ulamog.
Turn two, you get a 10/10 with a Vindicate attached. This is before anyone else has 2 lands out.
God Hand? Kinda (four of the cards are basic lands, which you will have an abundance of). But it is possible, and the odds of getting a turn 3-5 Titan are absurd (and largely due to ROFLmana). Hell, turn 3 you have enough mana to recast Rofellos if he's killed, so all that does is slow you down a turn.
I am now convinced you are a troll.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
Yes, that's the specious argument for mass removal. hammy already made some good points but I'll add a few things:
-letting people know you have targeted removal means they probably won't attack you in the first place - they'll hit your opponents, meaning not only do you NOT take damage, you also DON'T use a card and you DO watch your opponents die. it's a trifecta of awesomeness.
-mass removal also blows because it's usually sorcery speed (my favorite sweeper: Rout). if people know you have it (either because you revealed it, or simply because they've played you before) they'll want to kill you FIRST, since they know that if they deal lethal damage, you won't be able to cast it once you're dead. But if they know you have instant-speed removal, they know you can cast it in response and wreck them. That's why bant charm is a phenomenal deterrent - who's going to attack someone if they know THAT'S going to happen?
-Mass removal also sucks because it's usually symmetrical. Someone who has a lousy board position has no reason to not attack you, because if you nuke it's good for them. Whereas if you have targeted removal, you can remove what little they DO have and make their position even worse.
-targeted removal lets you make allies, too, by blasting stuff out of people's way.
-finally, mass removal pisses everyone off who lost some good stuff. Once they get more, they're probably coming for you, so it doesn't happen again.
I like a few pieces of mass removal, usually o-stone and rout and sometimes 1-2 others. Having a good number of tutors means you can get one if things get out of hand, but the majority of the time you want enemy creatures on the board, pounding the crap out of your enemies.
As far as rofellos, he's a solid general but playing massive creatures early on in a big game makes you a big target for removal and pain. Aggro sucks in a large multiplayer environment, always has and always will. Even emrakul has plenty of weaknesses, I played a game recently where one came out on turn 5 iirc. that person lost the game horribly.
I do, and I will. mass removal is for people trying to play like rambo - you against the world. that's a terrible way to play multiplayer. see the list I made above for tons of powerful targeted removal and defense that works great early-game as well as late.
if you have to specify every single card in your hand, as well as the two cards on top of your library, and every single one of them needs to be exactly what they are, then it's a godhand situation and it will never ever happen.
assuming any of the cards from your hand can be on top of your library in any order and vice versa (which isn't true, I'm being generous), assuming you have 50 forests in your deck (being generous), the odds are...
let me fire up my calculator...
.000002268% chance of that happening in a game.
in other words, every 44 million games, that happens ONCE.
THAT IS A FREAKING GODHAND SCENARIO.
(on top of that, it's not even a guaranteed win, I've got lots of 1-2 mana cards that can screw ulamog something fierce...but it's not really worth thinking about since it's so hillariously unlikely)
and see previous comments on targeted+instant vs mass+sorcery.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
Most decks are able to hardcast a Titan turn 6-ish (provided that is the focus of their decks). Rofellos is able to do so starting turn 2 without an infinite combo. Turn 3, he's able to hardcast almost any spell in his library if it is in his hand (assuming the player ramped even a little bit turn 2). By turn 6, he's set for life. All he needs to do is get Haste and you have the ultimate mana source.
The fact that Rofellos doesn't win Multiplayer games is irrelevant. Clique doesn't always win games, same with Zur, Uril, Azami, etc. What got Rofellos banned was that it took the entire table to kill the deck off, and he would often be able to take out one or two of the other players in the process. This is in competitive multiplayer games, not just the casual EDH match.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
Elves are lame anyway.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I couldn't agree more!
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
ok, again, one in 44 million games.
also, watch this:
hand: sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault, thran dynamo, ulamog, the infinite gyre and any basic land.
the odds of getting this hand are exactly the same as your own stupid godhand - actually, quite a bit better. it's playable in any deck ever and gets an eldrazi on turn 2.
furthermore, unless he gets ungodly lucky I have no idea why you think he'd be able to cast "anything in his library" by turn THREE. and don't bother with more stupid godhand crap, i don't care. TYPICALLY he'll have 6-8 mana by turn 3 - a lot, yes, but nothing overwhelming.
the fact that he doesn't win is 100% relevant. he's not overpowered in multiplayer if he can't win. The fact that he could win "if he didn't draw hate for playing aggressively" is meaningless, because he does. And there are plenty of generals that require immediate answers (again, arcum dagsson...turn 5 win is very very possible with VERY REAL odds, none of this 1/44000000 crap) and no one's talking about banning those.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
I'm done. You just don't get it, and you never will.
Rofellos wasn't a General. He was "GG: You and target player lose the game" in any multiplayer environment. You were guaranteed to get hated off the table as fast as Braids was, but you had the strong chance of taking one or two people out in the process and ruining the fun for those players.
He's banned, and the RC has made it clear that they will not unban him. Drop it.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
I know i lold at that. Normally i feel that most cards on the ban list could be taken off as you probably already know, and mybe just maybe even refellos could get one more chance, but that is not the way to persuade anyone he should no be banned. Consistent 6-8 (sometimes more) mana on turn 3 is the definition of overwhelming, this coming from someone who welcomes an early game emmy.
Sharuum the Hegemon
Mayael the Anima
Wort, Boggart Auntie
Sliver Overlord
Drana Kalastria Bloodchief
99 mountain Ashling
That's because he isn't your general. They didn't know until after you tutored him up, and you didn't have him out turn 1.
He's much less broken when he doesn't have General status. Still very powerful, but nowhere near what he is as a General.
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
Yup, one you cant get rid of, and one you actually can.
Only problem is - he's still a win-button.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
that argument is actually fair. I agree, with the massive early mana he could definitely ensure at least 1-2 players out of the game or close, even though he himself is very unlikely to actually win. That's not to say he can pick anyone at the table and guarantee their loss (cheap removal, efficient counters, and the right defensive blocker can still severely impair his effectiveness), but he could pretty certainly make sure that SOMEONE loses (or effectively loses) within the first few turns. Which, I agree, isn't much fun.
That said, I don't think many people play a deck with the intention to come in 2nd or 3rd. As long as he's trying to play to win, and not just screw certain people, he's not that bad.
Even on the assumption that he WILL kill 1-2 players, I don't feel like that should result in him being banned. I don't think a card should be banned on virtue of not being fun. That's obviously a matter of opinion and there's not really anywhere to go from there.
it's overwhelming in 1v1, sure. in a big game, I don't feel like it is. Defensive cards are a lot cheaper than offensive ones, and they make tons of sense to play in multiplayer - as long as everyone is playing a good defensive game, 6-8 mana on the offense isn't going to mean much. But of course not everyone plays that way...imo, that's their loss.
In case anyone thinks I'm delusional, I don't think anything I say will get it unbanned (or even reach the eyes of anyone who's in any position to do anything about it), I just like a good debate.
EDIT: I'm also sort of bothered that they banned him, then unbanned him, then banned him again. Having an unstable banned list means you can't be sure if that expensive card you bought is going to still be legal in a few weeks (dammit, tolarian academy...), and banning a general means a lot of people have to completely rebuild their entire deck. That sucks pretty hard.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
I thought a banned General was banned from all play...and a banned card was also banned as a General.
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
The short answer is "Yes". The long answer is "Yes, you may play any creatures in the banned general list as long as they are not your general."
It depends what do you mean by "greatest banned list". Sol Ring is not on the multiplayer banlist and has never been there. The ban list for multiplayer games can be found here. As for the French 1v1 ban list, you could find a discussion on that in the 1v1 subforum.
So actually the banned list should read (At least in my mind):
"Completely Banned" and "Banned as General"
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
I just checked the ban discussion and my reasoning was correct. Essentially every other infinite mana combo needs at a minimum two cards + something else that actually benefits from a ton of mana (despite what you said, the majority of cards in any deck will not ie. 7 card hand of Yixlid Jailor, Cloud of Faeries, Ninja of Deep Hours, Counterspell, Boomerang, Ancestral Visions and Doom Blade). Staff needs at minimum one other card to both go infinite and actually do something with the mana.
It isn't that the card is completely broken, it's just broken enough.
Rofellos is banned as a general because he provides access to early mana of a magnitude and consistency unmatched by any other general. Forget your god draws. Unless Rofellos is burned out as soon as he hits the table, every Rofellos deck will have six colored mana available on turn 3. Every deck, every game, except cases of significant mana screw.
Look at the decklist of your favorite deck. How's your board position when you drop your third land? How far are you from playing your general? How's your mana base? What does a typical hand draw look like for you? You have what... somewhere between two and four available mana, depending on how many CIP tapped lands you drew, and which mana rocks you picked up? Maybe on turn 3, you drop your Darksteel Ingot or Coalition relic and pass? Hey, maybe you lucked up your Sol Ring and you have five mana and a utility dude you dropped on turn two, that's a pretty good draw.
Rofellos has six mana, and that assumes he didn't luckdraw his own Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, or Mana Vault. Rofellos hasn't actually played any cards from his hand other than three basic Forests, so he still has seven cards in hand. He has lots of options. He could go aggro, there are certainly things a mono-green deck can do with six green mana. More likely though, he'll spend his third turn ramping further, which is also something green does very easily. How many ramping options are available in green with six available mana? Pretty much a billion, right? Ramp on turn three, and then on turn four, Rofellos has something like 8-10 mana available and starts doing ugly, nasty things.
Once again, I stress... this is not a god draw. This is not some fantasy scenario I invented to try to impress upon you the might of the deck. This is normal, everyday Rofellos, the kind of draw you get 95% of the time.
So this is about where you say "Rofellos has 1 toughness, somebody at the table will nuke him before he comes online." That's probably true... someone at the table will hopefully recognize the threat and burn Rofellos off the table. That player essentially spends an entire turn to do it... because hey, it's turn two, and you're choosing to play removal instead of ramping your deck and proceeding with your own game plan. But never mind that. The Rofellos player has built his deck for ramp, and instead of having six mana on turn three, he uses his three mana to ramp another land into play.
Turn four, Rofellos. That ☺☺☺☺er again! Well someone will just burn him off the table again, right?
Ok, this is about where I stop you. You're telling me that Rofellos needs to be killed every time he comes out, and it's not that hard to do. No, it's not that hard to kill Rofellos, but the fact that you NEED to kill him before he comes online is the problem. If Rofellos ever taps for mana, you're in a world of suck, because he taps for a LOT of mana relative to his casting cost.
Rofellos isn't banned because he's unstoppable. He's banned because he's incredibly consistent, and he's a huge threat relative to his casting cost.
how about kiki jiki + sky hussar? 2 cards and you don't need anything else to win the game. There's tons of 2-card-win combos. hell, with skill borrower in play and kiki-jiki on top of your library you can with the game with only one thing on the field.
and while my stupid quanar combo requires a third card, it's so incredibly generalized that you're bound to have something useful. even out of your cherry-picked hand (and the only one of those I've ever used in EDH is counterspell), all you have to do is wait until ancestral visions resolves to win the game. or you could use boomerang to bounce every enemy permanent on the field, and kill all the nonblack creatures with doom blade. that's not exactly a bad position to be in.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR